Episode Transcript
[00:00:09] Speaker A: Welcome to Becoming church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristen Mochler Young, and my guest today is Elizabeth Tabish, better known as Mary Magdalene from the hit tv series the Chosen. If you watch the show, you are probably freaking out right now, just like I was when I booked this interview. If you've never watched the show, please keep listening. You won't be lost, and just maybe you'll be intrigued enough to see what all the hype is about. I promise there are no spoilers, but here is my conversation with I still cannot believe it. Elizabeth Tavish.
Hey, Elizabeth Tavish. Welcome to the Becoming church podcast. How are you today?
[00:01:00] Speaker B: I'm good. Thank you for having me.
[00:01:02] Speaker A: Good. We are very, very excited to have you. I've been talking all up and down my social media about getting to interview you and have you on. And so the whole world, my whole church, everybody is so excited. So we're just really grateful.
[00:01:15] Speaker B: That's lovely to hear.
[00:01:16] Speaker A: Thank you. Yeah. So let's start with a couple easy questions about the show. I want to know. So you play Mary Magdalene. Is this a role that you heard of? And you were like, I have to audition for this, or did someone bring this to you?
[00:01:29] Speaker B: I was actually trying to quit acting.
Yeah.
I was not very successful. I was doing a lot of commercial work and booking just enough to sort of get by for a number of years, which feels fine, but creatively, it was very fulfilling. And then I finally just couldn't pay rent anymore, and I was like, I need to do something practical and change my career trajectory. My mom let me move in with her, which was incredible. And I was also just sort of struggling with a lot of emotional, sort of. I was struggling with depression and a lack of direction, I think. And so, yeah, I told my agent, just, I need to stop this. This feels like an unhealthy thing for me right now to continue to act and audition and everything, and said, well, I'm going to keep you on the roster, and if something really special comes up, I'll submit you. That's never going to happen because it's never happened. Like, I've never seen a female character that I was like, this is incredible. Like, I'm just, you know, so I just was not expecting this.
I got an audition notification and saw that it was a story about Jesus and the disciples, and it was Mary Magdalene, Lilith. I was like, what does. What is this? This is weird. And I was just like, please don't be cheesy. Please have me cheesy. And I read it, and it was so beautifully written and really smart and really different and interesting and human.
[00:03:09] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:03:10] Speaker B: And then also just what Mary goes through in that first episode and where she's at emotionally at this sort of point of despair I related to and resonated with. And I thought, this is. This is me. This is also, like, the fact that it's not depicting this woman who's struggling with her pain from an assault and from PTSD, but also, like, it doesn't just end there. That's not the end of her story.
The next part is she meets Jesus, and she is transformed, and she is given, like, a new beginning and a new.
Another chance.
And I was so moved by it, just reading it. I was just like, I just needed to read that in my life. I needed to read that in the script.
And so, yeah, I just thought, if I don't book this, then that's the biggest sign, like, time to walk away from this dream.
But I booked it, and it's been life changing.
[00:04:17] Speaker A: Oh, that's amazing. Did you have any idea what you were gonna do when you were ready to quit acting?
[00:04:23] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I had been directing some short films, but that doesn't make money.
I was teaching some acting classes in Austin at the Carole Hickey acting studio, and I enjoyed it, but I also don't think I was very good at it. And it definitely wasn't what. I wasn't what I want to do. You know, there's. There is a difference. Some people can be actors and teachers, and they're great at both.
Some actors cannot be teachers. And I just found myself, like. Like, well, I wanted. I want to do this scene, and, like, that's probably not for me, but.
But I did enjoy directing, so I was just trying to figure out, maybe. Maybe I go back and get my PhD. Maybe I go back to school. Maybe I.
Maybe I just try doing just kind of a practical job where I don't have to put my emotions on the line. Every audition, it was becoming a little bit too much. And that rejection, it's so weird. As an actor, you want to give all of yourself, but you're always holding back a little bit because, like, the memory of rejection, like, it's just so much.
[00:05:39] Speaker A: Right.
[00:05:39] Speaker B: You also have to sort of have a thick skin and accept rejection because it's mostly rejection. It really is.
So this actual audition was the first time that I was like, I have nothing to lose anymore. I have nothing to hold back anymore. And I. I think I just sort of synced up a lot with. With the scenes and.
Yeah.
[00:06:05] Speaker A: And the character of Mary Magdalene, I like to call her Mary Mags.
[00:06:09] Speaker B: We all do.
[00:06:10] Speaker A: Okay, perfect.
[00:06:11] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:06:12] Speaker A: She is actually my favorite person in the Bible.
I would say the donkey is low key. One of my favorites. Like, I've done an actual sermon on the donkey.
Mary Mags is my favorite human character in the Bible.
[00:06:27] Speaker B: So, yeah, that's awesome to hear. I love that sometimes in the script, they have mags for. Yeah, yeah, I love that.
[00:06:37] Speaker A: Her character, you. Her character. I was watching. I just finished the season four. I was like, I have to get all these episodes in before I talked to Liz and you. It is amazing to me the way that everything has been written and the scenes have been crafted and the stories that they intermingled, like, across the different seasons, but it always stuck out to me how you were. Like, you were always there. Mary Magdalene was always there from opening shot to closing shot, in every scene. She just was always with Jesus and always present. And it's the unwritten things, I think, in the chosen that really make it so special and, like you said, so humanity.
Yeah.
[00:07:20] Speaker B: Yeah. There's. I mean, you even look at the gospels like, there's a lot. I mean, there are elements of her life that are not written that, like, we. We only hear a little bit about her in the gospels. She was possessed. She. Jesus healed her. She followed him. She helped finance the ministry. She was at the crucifixion, at the tomb, at the resurrection. So, like, these are just. These, like, just sentences, you know, like, it's not really detailed, but it kind of doesn't have to be, because, like, those are some of the most pivotal moments of his ministry. And we can imagine that this woman was. Was very close and very important to. To Jesus. For her to be there and for him to.
I don't know, I think that it also has lent itself to so much speculation in media over the years, and there's a lot of, I think, misinformation about who she was to Jesus. And I appreciate that the chosen is rooting her storyline in the gospels and not going kind of far off into fantasyland. It is still like she was healed by him, and so she follows him to the very end. It doesn't have to be any more than that for it to be meaningful.
[00:08:44] Speaker A: How did you study her character? And kind of, you know, a lot of acting is like, oh, I'm going to study this person and their mannerisms and whatever so that you can fully embody them. But like you said, there's so much of her life was left out of the text. How did you really, like, figure out, you know, the direction of how you were going to portray her?
[00:09:01] Speaker B: I relied on the script a lot. Okay. And I tried to ignore other depictions of her in other projects. I didn't want to repeat something that might not be, um, organic. And, um, yeah, I relied on the script. I also. When I was. There were moments. I think I'm really hard on myself.
There are moments that I see that I'm like, that's inauthentic or that's crappy. It's not a good, good performance.
And I remember those moments while I was acting, and I think I was trying to be Mary. I was trying to be a saint. I was trying to be like, yes, everything's great now. And that's actually not where I think her power lies of just being, like, great now. She's a dynamic person and human. And so every time I have been in doubt, I'm just thinking, like, what would I do in that situation? What would a human do, and what would those emotions naturally be for me?
And it's surprising sometimes. Sometimes I find myself crying in scenes that I wasn't expecting. Sometimes I feel kind of stoic and, like, thoughtful when I'm expecting to be emotional. And so I've kind of opened myself up to the present moment, and I think whatever God wants me to do in that moment instead of planning it and, like, well, it's gonna be like this for the scene. I try really to let go of that thought and.
And just try to listen to what's going on for the first time for each take. And because I've been a director and editor, I think my tendency is to act for the editor, where I try to do the exact same thing every take for ease of editing, and I watch things back. I'm like, it's okay to kind of go off, and if you're feeling something different in a take, like, follow that and react differently, and they'll figure it out in post. I don't want to make things difficult, but, like, you know, it's more important to have, I think, an honest reaction in a scene than trying to match something you did five minutes ago.
So I'm learning from this show, and it's a gift to be able to watch this over all of these years and to be able to grow as an actor. Yeah. Not many actors get a chance to, like, watch your work and learn from it and be like, I need to change this or whatever. So I'm very grateful that I get to do that with the show.
[00:11:40] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I know Dallas Jenkins is, like, famously talks about, you know, holy imagination or filling in the gaps.
Have you been directed to say or do anything? I know you just said you're trying to, like, follow, like, direction, like, the leading of what to do in the moment, but has there been anything that surprised you that you were like, oh, you want her to do this or say this?
[00:12:02] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. I mean, I think constantly.
I think every season, like, oh, this is so. This is such an interesting direction to take her. Yeah, I think.
I think I'm always excited about what they end up doing, what they end up writing. I really like what they've written for her.
I I. When I. When I do have those thoughts, I don't. I don't feel resistant, I guess. Um, I think all of season two, when she sort of has this, um, she's triggered and she kind of returns to her old habits.
[00:12:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:42] Speaker B: Um, out of fear, out of anxiety, out of shame.
I I know a lot of people were upset over that because it, like, don't do that to our Mary. But, like, you know, the reality is that could very well be what happened or what happens to people that are.
[00:13:02] Speaker A: Healed happens to all of us. Is it.
[00:13:04] Speaker B: They find redemption, but then they're triggered and, like, that's a human thing and very relatable. And I was sort of experiencing it, too. I was like, oh, this is another lesson from the show. There are so many.
And so even when I'm surprised by what they do, it always feels like there's a purpose in it and a reason, and then the reaction from it. As many people that didn't like it, there were so many more that were like, that's. Thank you for depicting this. Thank you for depicting what growth looks like. Sometimes it feels like you're going backwards, but sometimes you have to, unfortunately, to realize that, like, no, no, no, that's not it. That's. That's not where I want to go. And I'm different now, and I have new tools to handle these things. And a lot of people that have struggled with addiction and with PTSD and with assault have. Have related to her character and to those elements of her storyline. And I think that's very important to me, that they feel seen and that they don't feel alone in it.
[00:14:15] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I think it's relatable because it's real life. Like, it doesn't matter what the situation is, it doesn't matter what you're going through. Life is not, like, always up into the right.
[00:14:24] Speaker B: No, it's not like, ever.
[00:14:27] Speaker A: Yay. I'm a Christian, and now everything is perfect. Like, exactly. It's a constant zigzag.
[00:14:32] Speaker B: Well, and you see it, too, especially in season four, where, like, a couple of tragic, unexpected things happen and you think, this whole group, they're following Jesus. They should be fine, right? It's fine. That's not going to happen. Like, no, life still happens. Tragedy, like, tragic events still occur. Pain, grief, like death, like, these things still happen.
And so there's, I think, especially in season four, like, everyone goes through that together. And the struggle of, why didn't Jesus do something about it? Why didn't he stop it from happening? All these questions that kind of come up for everyone. I think. I mean, for Mary, I think she's already kind of, like, familiar with those questions. Yeah. And so is able to, I think, be there for. For the others that are surprised by it.
[00:15:23] Speaker A: Well, the. The personalities of the disciples, too. Talking about all the others again, that's another thing. How much did you. How much were you familiar, I guess, with the different disciples or their different personalities before starting this project?
Were any of us?
[00:15:39] Speaker B: It's so funny. I like the twelve disciples, and they were all the exact same face in my mind. They were the exact same voice, same personality. I was just like, they're all these stoic and wise followers of Christ. And then this show comes along, and, like, every single one of them could not be more different from the next. Different attitudes, different family dynamics, different.
Different expressions of their faith. And it's so cool to get to watch all of their storylines unfold in different ways. They're still a group in a lot of ways, but they are definite individuals within that group, so it's been fun to also see audience members relate to different, different characters that way.
[00:16:30] Speaker A: Right. It provides more opportunity for people to see themselves in the story and then even just the nature of relationships. Like you said, they're a group, but then you've got, like, you know, well, these brothers are brothers, so they're a parent. Then later, one of the brothers maybe goes with somebody else, and so you see a bit of jealousy and you see a bit of real life relationship conflict happen, which, again, is so cool.
Who is your favorite person to be on set with?
[00:17:01] Speaker B: It depends on what the goal is for the day.
[00:17:04] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:17:05] Speaker B: I need someone to just cheer me up. It's Jordan Walker, Roz.
He's like a brother to me. And Jordan, who plays little James.
[00:17:14] Speaker A: Little James, yes.
[00:17:15] Speaker B: He always knows how to make everyone laugh and just really lightens, but he also has this wonderful talent of bringing people together and connecting people and starting games and stuff. And he's a fun, light hearted person to be around if the goal for that day is to really get into the world of the show and to sort of drop in and get lost in the. The character and the story.
Jonathan, who plays Jesus, he sets a tone, even if you're not interacting with him directly in a scene, there's just, like, you can kind of get lost in it and be like, this is happening in real time.
And Vanessa, who plays Mother Mary, is also one of those actors. And she's so funny. She's very different, obviously younger than the character. They age for quite a bit, but when it's sort of time to, like, adjust and shift into a scene, I look at her and it's Mother Mary. It's the mother of Jesus. And I can kind of shift into the world of the scene.
[00:18:32] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:18:33] Speaker B: Because of. Yeah, because of them.
[00:18:35] Speaker A: Wow. I love. I can only imagine. I can only imagine what it would be like to be on set and feel like you are just transported, like, into this completely different world.
[00:18:46] Speaker B: It's surreal. Sometimes it started so small, and most of the scenes I did in season one were just kind of on my own, and they were in small rooms. And then this last, during season five filming, I think it was in Utah when we had so many extras. I don't even know the number. Thousands? Like, so many extras or hundreds? No, I don't know.
[00:19:10] Speaker A: Maybe a lot.
[00:19:11] Speaker B: I think hundreds. I think it was, like 600 every day.
[00:19:13] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:19:14] Speaker B: My memory is bad, but I remember kind of coming onto set and looking around and everyone's really quiet right before we start shooting, and it's just. It's surreal. It's so strange. And everyone's there for the same purpose and everyone's, like, so connected to the scene, and it's just. Yeah, I pinch myself all the time.
[00:19:38] Speaker A: I love that. I love that you love it and that you're enjoying it. I was. I think I was really hoping that you would say that and not just be like. Yeah. Like, it's a thing that I. You know.
[00:19:47] Speaker B: No, it's. It's special. It's. It's something else.
[00:19:50] Speaker A: Yeah, well, it comes through. It comes through the screen, for sure. And do you have a favorite moment, either on or off screen, that you can go back to from filming any of the seasons?
[00:20:01] Speaker B: I feel like it's been five seasons now, and I'm, like, starting to forget things. There's so many experiences. Oh, I'm sure for whatever reason, that first episode at the very end of filming with Jonathan, the end of episode one, it's the first thing I kind of remember when I think of the show.
It was.
It's funny because I thought I did a terrible, terrible, terrible job. It was so cold that night.
[00:20:35] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh.
[00:20:36] Speaker B: I couldn't feel my hands, and I couldn't. I wasn't doing what I. I wasn't reacting the way I reacted when I first read it. And that's always my goal, is, like, however, my first reaction to it, like, I want to get there, okay, because it's, like, the most honest and reaction, and.
And so I wasn't doing it. And I think there's some immaturity in being, like, trying to chase that feeling instead of just allowing whatever was happening to happen.
[00:21:04] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:21:05] Speaker B: And so I just did not think I did a very good job. And I knew that it was sort of, like, the crux of the entire, like, if people aren't hooked on that last moment of that first episode, then, like, we're. They're not going to keep watching.
[00:21:24] Speaker A: Right.
[00:21:25] Speaker B: So the pressure was on. I was very nervous, and I just. I was kind of hard on myself and anxious and, like, just couldn't do it. But I thought I wanted to do and thought I ruined the show.
And definitely I was like, I was like, they got the wrong actress. Like, they made a mistake. And then I watched the edited version, and every time I watch it, it makes me. Me cry.
[00:21:51] Speaker A: And same.
[00:21:52] Speaker B: I'm like, I guess I can't mess this up. Like, even if I try, like, I can't. There's something about the storyline and the writing and the editing and the music and, like, there's so many wonderful, talented people doing just the best work. You put that all together, and if an actor has an off day, like, it's okay.
It's kind of a really lovely lesson of, like, you're gonna be okay. You're in really, really good hands. And.
And I. When I watch, I still. I. Yeah, I cry every time I see that scene. And it means so much to me. And I think that was also part of the pressure is, like, it just meant so much. And so there's this. This thing over the next few years that I was, like, anxious about, like, letting it. It all get too precious. And I think when I do that, I. I'm not present. I'm trying to. Trying to make it something that it doesn't necessarily need to be. None of these characters are precious. Like, we are messy, flawed humans. And I think the more I lean into that, like, the easier and the more honest sort of reactions I feel in the scenes.
So, yeah, the whole thing has been such a wonderful, like, acting experience to learn from. From all of it, from doing it and then watching it and then changing it and letting go of a lot of neurosis surrounding acting, if you can tell. I have.
[00:23:25] Speaker A: I love that you use the word precious.
A little behind the scenes for people listening is whenever I email a guest, like, here's the link, here's the details, here's the questions. One of the things that I always say is, please be yourself. We are not precious. Like, we are not precious over here, because I think that can be a misconception in the christian world, the church world, especially, that, like, we have to button up and be serious, and we're doing this for Jesus. And so it has to be, like.
[00:23:53] Speaker B: What you do when you do that, though, it's performing, and it's. It's not really showing all those embarrassing, messy parts that are actually the things that people connect to that are actually the things that, like, the audience is like, oh, that's. Like, me. I do that, too.
I don't feel so alone. And this is how, you know, so, like, there's. There's. That's the point of connection that I think you end up missing when. When you. When you get too precious. I think that's brilliant of you. Just be like that.
[00:24:25] Speaker A: Thank you. Yeah.
[00:24:26] Speaker B: Different.
[00:24:26] Speaker A: I really feel like I've tried. I've tried to be maybe not precious, but I've tried to, like, be right, you know, quote unquote, and do all.
[00:24:34] Speaker B: You know, I just don't know how.
[00:24:35] Speaker A: To be that person. Like, I just don't know how to do that. This is just what we get.
[00:24:39] Speaker B: Good. It's relatable.
[00:24:41] Speaker A: It is, yeah. Yeah.
[00:24:42] Speaker B: I appreciate it.
[00:24:42] Speaker A: Okay, so that's your. Your favorite scene or the one you go back to. What's been the most challenging scene to record?
[00:24:50] Speaker B: Um, there have been so many, like, physically challenging scenes where we're, like, out in the sun all day or sermon on the mount was freezing. We have, like, a winter storm.
And then when we were out there, I was so cold and tense, I threw out my neck, and so I was, like, in pain and freezing. Like, I'm going to die today.
And then we had, I think, 2000 extras that came for that. Like, the curtains sort of opened and you look out, and you're like, nobody's complaining. Everyone's got these enormous smiles on their faces. And, like, it kind of. It made me realize, like, whatever pain you're going through, physical pain, especially, like, it's all worth it. Just, you know, go to a chiropractor. You'll be okay.
[00:25:41] Speaker A: Don't quit any one of those, like, heat patches that you could just put on under your costume.
[00:25:46] Speaker B: Yes, yes, yes, yes. I also threw my neck out during. I don't know if this is a spoiler, but season four is out. So during the very tragic scene in episode three.
[00:25:57] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:25:58] Speaker B: Because I come down to my knees and kind of try to lift someone. I threw my neck out that day, too. So, like, the whole day, I'm just like, yeah, my neck's been an issue. But, oh, my gosh, you know, they.
[00:26:10] Speaker A: Just be like, Liz, you're not the one that's supposed to be on the ground right now. Get up.
[00:26:14] Speaker B: Get up. Stand up.
Yeah.
[00:26:18] Speaker A: Well, I love that you also. We've talked about episode one, season one, episode one a lot, because in my conversations with people, it seems to be either they've never watched the chosen or they've watched, like, they're obsessed and watch every episode. And I don't know why. I do know why. As I say, it took me a while to get into it. And here's my very honest and real thing that I'll tell you. I'm a pastor, and I work for the church, and I love God, and I love Jesus, and I love the church. But when I get home at the end of the day and I do dinner and dishes and I put my kids to bed and I sit down with my husband, I'm not, like, more Jesus now. Please. Like, I just want to zone out and watch a comedy or something goofy or whatever, you know?
[00:27:01] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:27:02] Speaker A: So I push it off for a really, really long time.
[00:27:04] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:27:06] Speaker A: But then, like you said, that first episode I was in immediately, like, opened on you, you know, Mary Magdalene's whole story, and by the end of it, I was like, well, I'm gonna be up for three more hours.
I gotta just go through this.
So I think that's just kudos to the whole team, you know, that what you guys are doing is really special. And once people kind of tap in, it's something that you just so get drawn into the stories. Everybody's stories, I think.
[00:27:34] Speaker B: Everyone. Yeah. No, I think there's a lot of misconceptions about what it's going to be, and I think there have been so many depictions of these stories that have been a certain way, very precious, I think, very, very holy and a little difficult to relate to. And so when you're told by someone like, you should watch this show, like, I'm not surprised when people don't, honestly. And.
And then, of course, when they do, there's like, yeah, this is. This is fun. This is entertaining, and it's also relatable.
[00:28:10] Speaker A: And I think, yeah, I'm starting.
Yeah, I'm starting a small group now at our church. Actually, tonight is the first one. We're gonna go through season one together and, like, watch an episode and talk about it. And I just keep telling people, I'm like, this is the Jesus that I know. Like, that's. I don't know what else to tell you. This is the Jesus that I know.
[00:28:30] Speaker B: I love that because a lot of people have. Have shared that sentiment of, like, it's like the first time you can see him as God and as man, and, like, you see him doing these miracles, and then you see him laughing about with a joke or something. Like, it's just like, this sudden, like, oh, I can. I can talk to this. This version?
Yeah.
[00:28:55] Speaker A: Okay. I want to break in really quickly to speak specifically to the person who's listening that is still unsure about Jesus. Maybe scripture has been used against you. Maybe the church was not an inclusive place for you. Maybe christians have been anything but loving to you. I believe that the chosen was created for you. This is the Jesus who is stripped away of religion. This is the gospel that is available for everyone to read and understand. This maybe is God's new way of speaking to you. The chosen is currently on the CW, Netflix, and their original streaming app, where it costs $0 to download and watch, and it is available with subtitles in nearly 50 languages. This is more than just hype, and I highly encourage you to give the chosen a chance.
I want to ask you, Elizabeth, about you as an actor, as a person, as a woman living in this present culture, which is very separate from your character in that very distinct culture.
[00:29:57] Speaker B: Right. I mean, maybe, but, yeah.
So you might have been going through similar things. I don't know.
[00:30:03] Speaker A: Yes. Yes. Well, maybe it's the people around you, then, that are different. Although, sure, maybe. No fair.
[00:30:08] Speaker B: I don't know. I don't know. You know, I don't think people change that much. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:30:14] Speaker A: Well, the moment I knew that, I wanted to talk to you and figure out a way to talk to you. I follow the chosen on social media and all the cheers for the social media team on Instagram.
[00:30:27] Speaker B: They're the best. Aren't they incredible? And they like, yeah. Cannot be stopped. They're amazing.
[00:30:37] Speaker A: The funniest. Well, I was watching the premiere of season three, and you guys were posting, you know, the teal carpet photos and whatever, and it was you and a lot of the other female cast members, like, this group of ladies. And I was like, oh, I left a comment, and then I was reading some of the other comments, and I just wanted to bring my head up against the wall.
These people are in the comments using scripture references to criticize your dress choices and the things that you were wearing. And I actually think I went back and deleted my comment and made another one because we're not doing this today.
[00:31:19] Speaker B: Oh, you're sweet.
[00:31:21] Speaker A: Just like, it blows my mind. Do you feel like you're ever being held to this impossible, like, high and holy standard that you are, like, mary Magdalene?
[00:31:32] Speaker B: Yeah, I think. I think I struggled with the fear of that for a number of years. I was almost afraid of. I remember posting some photos where I had an off shoulder dress, and I got attacked on my instagram. There were so many people that were so upset.
[00:31:50] Speaker A: Makes me so angry, and I was.
[00:31:51] Speaker B: So tickled by it because I was like, this photo shoot was inspired by Mary Magdalene in Renaissance paintings where, like, her dress was off her shoulders. Most of the time, she's nude in most paintings and statues. Like, she's kind of always just got long hair, and that's her. That's her outfit. And so I am just tickled by, like, where did this come from? Why did anyone think that this, like, off shoulder something is, like, so inappropriate?
Those seem to be very personal standards for those people. And I finally realized, like, most people are non judgmental and sane. And then there are some people who have such high standards for everyone else's behavior, everyone else's dress code, everyone else's everything.
And my advice to them is, like, you can. You can have those standards for yourself.
[00:32:59] Speaker A: Yeah. Yes.
[00:33:00] Speaker B: You are so welcome to dress up to here or veil or wear gloves and not show your ankles. I don't know how immodest those dresses are. I just don't think they were personally same. I also grew up with MTV, so, like, my standards might be a little.
I've been shocked by what people wear. I'm a rather modest person. Like, I'm shocked sometimes, but, like, I would never be like, well, you can't wear that. Like, they clearly like to wear that. That's fine. It doesn't really affect me. I wouldn't wear it, that's all. So, like, when I know that my standards of modesty are pretty strong, to be honest, like, I'm. I am anxious when I'm wearing too much. Whatever. Like, but. But I still like fashion. I still like looking nice, like, but I'm not doing it for attention, you know? So, like, I know my intentions of wearing that dress, which I still. I guess my arms were showing. I don't know what.
So, I don't know.
The other dresses the other women were wearing were just absolutely stunning and beautiful, and. And to me, I was like, they're pretty modest for our day and age. I thought they were quite modest. So if you think that those are immodest, then maybe get off social media. Like, maybe.
Maybe it's all too much for you. And maybe, you know, you. You yourself are welcome to dress however you'd like. The idea of judging us for that is. I think there's something in the Bible about that.
And.
Yeah, also, you know, you can also pluck out your eye. I don't know. There are a lot of options if that makes you feel better. There's just the idea of objectifying and pointing out what women are wearing and trying to make them uncomfortable or shamed is just so, so vile to me and unnecessary when, God forbid, we all try to look nice for a premiere that we're proud of, you know?
[00:35:17] Speaker A: Right.
[00:35:17] Speaker B: So, yeah, I have a lot of feelings about it. Sorry we're rambling, but I have a lot of feelings about it, and I've stopped worrying about that because I know my intentions. I know my level of modesty. And, yeah, I mean, there was a time in my life where I wasn't very modest, and I'm like, well, I. That I needed to go through that. That's okay, too. Like, not that it's okay, but, like, I needed to experience that and see what that led to and see what comes from that and be like, that's not for me either. So, like, I just think that everyone has their own journey and they're learning on their own time, and it's very easy to. To criticize people on the Internet because you don't see them face to face. Yeah. And so, you know, we can plead with them to be nicer, but I don't think that's going to work.
[00:36:09] Speaker A: Yeah, probably not.
[00:36:12] Speaker B: You just can't let it get to you. Yeah.
[00:36:13] Speaker A: I'm going to tuck away that. That biblical quote, unquote biblical version of Mary Magdalene in my back. Pocket. And who knows? Maybe I'll be in the comments. Like, did you. Do you want to see this version instead? This naked Mary Magdalene? Like, is this is the photo shoot you're actually asking. Asking for?
[00:36:29] Speaker B: That's right.
Well, I just all just felt very confused. Like, everyone's got their own version, and that's also fine. If that's how you want to see these characters that mean so much to you, that's totally fine. But you can't expect us to know what makes you comfortable.
[00:36:46] Speaker A: Well, and Mary Magdalene, to be honest, wasn't doing it. Elizabeth Tabish was doing it. I think that's the thing, right? It's like, yeah, yeah. We're talking about two different people.
[00:36:57] Speaker B: Like, they know that though, right?
I hope everyone knows that I'm not married.
[00:37:03] Speaker A: I really hope that people know that Jonathan is not actually Jesus.
[00:37:07] Speaker B: Like, out of everyone worry the moms.
[00:37:08] Speaker A: Guys, like, he's still gonna be alive after.
[00:37:11] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:37:12] Speaker A: And not just the resurrection, because he's just playing a role.
[00:37:15] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, and he's got that wonderful documentary, Jonathan and Jesus, I think.
[00:37:21] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:37:22] Speaker B: And just showing him as a. As just a person. He's an actor, and he. And this. Playing this role, I think it does carry a certain weight.
And I just. I think a little bit of grace on the end of, you know, the audience end to just acknowledge we are just people. You can't expect us to live to the same standards as not too much to ask the saints and the Jesus Christ. Like, we can't. We'll never live up to that. Please don't expect us. Right? Yeah.
[00:37:57] Speaker A: When people meet you out, like, in real life, what's that like? Is there, like, a common reaction that most people.
[00:38:03] Speaker B: Yeah, people are so sweet. People are more than anything. I get you. Have you seen the chosen? You look like the actress.
I know I'm not wearing the veil, so it's hard to tell.
So people are very sweet. They're sometimes kind of hesitant to approach, and then. Yeah, they're just. It ends up being them sharing how much this show means to them. And it's just always lovely to hear that.
[00:38:34] Speaker A: That's awesome.
[00:38:34] Speaker B: Yeah, it's always lovely.
[00:38:36] Speaker A: I feel like I would just burst into tears. Like, I knew this was coming and I was. And I was ready, but I think if I just randomly, like, saw you walking down the street or anybody else, I would just be like. I would be everything that I just said not to do, and I would be like, oh, my gosh, you're wearing nice things. I think I would just lose my ever loving mind.
[00:38:55] Speaker B: No, no. It is fun to meet with fans. It's fun to interact and usually get a picture or something.
[00:39:07] Speaker A: That's awesome. You alluded to it a little bit ago about how has working on this project changed the way that you see Jesus or scripture?
[00:39:16] Speaker B: So before the show, I was depressed. I think I was also.
I was very cynical about religion and growing up, churches and church people always felt very exclusive and judgmental, and I never felt included in it. And so I think I mistakenly took Christianity as, like, I just thought it was church in a lot of ways. But at the same time, my mother would always talk. We would talk about Jesus and his message, and it never felt like it was really syncing up with church. And I don't know if that was the church I was going to or the church my friends were going to. And I know that that's all very specific sort of personal basis, but.
But this show has reminded me of who Jesus is and how churches. We can't expect churches to live up to the same standard as Jesus. It's the same sort of thing, right? It's full of people, and people are messy, and people make mistakes, and people don't always interpret things the way you hope them to or expect them to. And we all have egos and we all have, you know, there's just so much at play. And I think the mistake for me was always assuming that the church represents Jesus, when really Jesus represents Jesus, and that the church and churches are places for people to share that love and to inspire each other, to continue to share Jesus's love and to be reminded of what he taught and who he is. And so in a lot of ways, it has brought me back to trust in church again, but more importantly, a reconnection with who Jesus really is and how difficult it is to really be christian and to really choose to love your enemies and turn the other cheek and give things up and sacrifice. And it is the most challenging thing in the world.
The gifts from that are so life changing and so much more than any sort of physical comfort or social comfort or egotistical comfort that we can get without it. And realizing that you can be Christian and you can follow Jesus and share Jesus love everywhere, at every point of the day, in every moment of the day, whether you're alone with family, with strangers, with animals, you can live in the love of Christ.
And that church is meant to enhance that and inspire that. And it's lovely to be a part of a show that also enhances and inspires that and reminds us of who this man was and who he can be for us today.
[00:42:35] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm over here, like, cheering. I'm like, silent cheering as you're doing. I'm like, preach, preach, Liz. Because that really is the heart of this entire podcast.
You know, like I said, I'm a pastor at a church, and we love Jesus, and we exist to reclaim the message and the movement of Jesus because we think a lot of just junk has been layered onto it.
And so this podcast was actually just kind of born out of a series that we did, and we were like, this is actually an idea, and this is really, like, my heart is that, yeah, we don't go to church on Sunday morning. And so everything you just said, right, like, we are the church, we are the body of Christ. We get to go out and do all of these things. And, yeah, if anybody can be reminded of that by watching a tv show or listening to this, you know, conversation or stepping foot in our building on a Sunday morning, like, the weight of that hits me sometimes, you know?
[00:43:29] Speaker B: Sure. Yeah.
[00:43:30] Speaker A: Just, it's simple things that we're doing. Like, man, like, this is what it's all about, you know, it changes people's lives. Yeah.
Well, I just want to thank you. Like I said, I just finished season four, I believe, tonight airing on the CW. The season finale, two hour season finale is airing tonight if people want to go and catch that.
Thank you for sharing that. You kind of found your own healing in this process. And in playing Mary Magdalene, I think that I've found healing through watching you play her.
[00:44:06] Speaker B: Oh, wow.
[00:44:07] Speaker A: That's special in a very different way. Like, I don't think I've experienced a lot. I didn't experience a lot of the same things that she did. I've probably not experienced some of the things, personally that you have, but I grew up, you know, with shame, and we all have things, right? Like, we all have our baggage, and we all have our things. And in the last episode of season four that I watched this morning, towards the end, jesus is right about to ride off on the donkey.
[00:44:33] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:44:33] Speaker A: And he looks back to all of you guys and he says, I have loved you all as my own. And the expression on your slash Mary Mags face, like, brought me to tears.
I just felt like I was like, okay, Mary is finally able to receive how loved she is, and she's finally to accept that she's a deserving of that love. And I just felt like holy spirit was like. And you and I was like, ok.
[00:44:59] Speaker B: Thank you so much.
Thank you for sharing that.
I haven't recognized that moment as being that moment and that's so special to. That's sort of been a theme lately of, like, you can be loved so deeply, forever that if you don't, if you don't accept it, you gotta accept it too. You've got to realize that. And I think that has been so much part of Mary's journey and my own. So thank you for pointing that out and sharing this.
[00:45:35] Speaker A: I know, at least for me, it's been a lesson. Again, not a linear line, right. Of, like, I remember it and then I forget, and I remember and then I forget.
Thank you so much. It has been such a delight talking to you. You too.
I really appreciate all that y'all are doing. And we're cheering you on. We're cheering you on.
[00:45:55] Speaker B: Thank you so much.
[00:45:57] Speaker A: So glad this is what you're doing.
[00:45:59] Speaker B: Oh, thank you. Thank you very much. But thank you also for what you're doing. This has been so wonderful to get to talk to.
[00:46:06] Speaker A: Thank you.
Well, I made her laugh. I made her cry. I'm not sure what else I needed from that conversation. They say don't meet your heroes, but as someone I deeply respect, playing someone that I deeply admire, that was an absolute delight. If you agree, I would love for you to share this episode with the person that you love to talk to the chosen about. Anyone who's not super precious is always welcome here. Thanks for listening. And until next time, keep becoming the church. To the people around.
