Terence Lester: From Dropout to Doctorate

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:09] Speaker B: Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Mockler Young, and today's conversation quickly jumped into being one of my favorites in the history of this show. Dr. Terrance Lester is here to share his story. From being a school dropout to getting his doctorate. He vulnerably shares about experiencing homelessness, how impoverishment affected his education as a child, and how it affects the people who probably believe they're unaffected by it. This is one of those episodes that really captures the heart of becoming church, and I'd love for you to think of someone that you can share this with as you listen. All right, Terrence, welcome to Becoming Church. [00:00:58] Speaker A: Church. [00:00:58] Speaker B: I'm so glad to have you today, Kristen. [00:01:02] Speaker A: I'm grateful to be here. I do have a question for you, though. [00:01:05] Speaker B: Okay. Okay. Already turning the tables on me. [00:01:08] Speaker A: Yeah. What made you invite me on to this wonderful podcast of yours? You know, why? Why at this moment? You know, why me? [00:01:19] Speaker B: Yeah, that's a great question. So I have to tell you, honestly, I was not familiar with you or your work until Krista at IVP started sent me you as a suggestion, which I get suggestions for people on the podcast all the time. So just because somebody comes across my desk does not mean I'm putting them in. But I looked into you and what you're doing, and I just thought, terrence, this is somebody who is going to. I think you very much have the same heart as. As I do or similar heart of the show. And I wanted you to come on because I want the people that are listening to be able to have their eyes opened to experiences that maybe they have not lived, to grow in compassion and empathy for the lived experiences of other people. And I just thought you have such a voice and you are doing such phenomenal work right now, and things that I think affect multiple marginalized groups. And we'll get into all of that. And I just really think that you will. Yeah, like I said, be able to bring awareness to people. And that's really my hope and my prayer is that people will listen to learn from you. Thank you for being here. [00:02:30] Speaker A: Well, thank you for having me. And to your point about compassion and empathy and having the courage to see others and not just using this language of seeing in an ableistic sense, because we know that some people are unable to see, but acknowledgement is at the core of what we're going to discuss. And I'm hoping to have this conversation where we can open the eyes and the hearts and the minds of people in a way that causes them to question and ask, what can I do to ensure that the world around me is better because I show up with my whole heart. [00:03:11] Speaker B: Yeah. Amen. Listen, I'm so excited. That is what this whole show is about. If I ever have an episode where people get off and they're like, like, okay, that was like fun. Like, I failed. So this is what I want to do. I want to lovingly challenge people and call them up. So I'm very excited. And we're going to talk about your new book in a minute. But I was also going through your website and you have other books that are about basically the same idea of opening our eyes to other people, correct? [00:03:41] Speaker A: Yeah. My first book, I see you How Love opens our eyes to Invisible People, I came out in 2019 and then I wrote a book called When We Stand. This. The idea behind When We Stand was simply saying that the way that we make change, change in the world around us, change in our communities, change in the lives of those who have been impacted by vulnerabilities, is that we have to come together. And then I wrote All God's Children and co authored a children's book about homelessness with my daughter, who was 16 years old when it came out. And then I'm about to release a brand new book called From Dropout to Doctorate. And all of them kind of work in tandem with each other and they build upon each other. [00:04:32] Speaker B: Well, I have already added your first two to my TBR list. And I'm not just pandering to you because this is really like I had this whole experience of God opening my eyes and it changed everything. And I actually had Dave Gibbons on the show and we had a whole episode about that. So we love Dave over here. [00:04:49] Speaker A: Yes. And he just released a book too. But Dave is a really great friend and he actually wrote the forward to my first book. [00:04:57] Speaker B: Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah, that's awesome. Well, I want to kind of ease people in to getting to know you a little bit. And so since your book out, your book is about educational injustice, I thought let's do a quick little, like, school related Q A. [00:05:13] Speaker A: Okay. [00:05:13] Speaker B: We'll ease in a little bit. Okay. So these can be as serious or as silly as you want them to be. What was your favorite subject in school? [00:05:23] Speaker A: Favorite subject? [00:05:24] Speaker B: Yes. [00:05:27] Speaker A: I would have to say math. And let me tell you why. Let me preface this. I talk about in the book that I had a geometry teacher Who? You know, when I was a fifth year senior, I had dropped out of school, went back to school. He was an actual teacher that came to me one day and said that, you're going to make it, you're going to overcome. You're going to beat the odds. I want you to use my classroom as a sanctuary. She saw me and gave me space and allowed me to borrow her courage and her belief that she had in me that I didn't even have in myself. And she made math come alive in ways that I just not ever experienced. So it's part subject, but it's also part the ways in which Ms. West showed up and embodied what it means to live with love. [00:06:24] Speaker B: Yeah. Way to go, Ms. West. You're doing it. [00:06:27] Speaker A: Way to go. Shout out to Ms. West. Yep. [00:06:31] Speaker B: All right. How about your least favorite subject? [00:06:34] Speaker A: Least favorite subject is also math. Can I have. Can I. Can I have the same answer for you? Can both questions. Math is the most painful thing ever, especially with equations and things that we don't necessarily use in everyday life. And so although I really enjoyed geometry and in certain aspects of math, I still reflect on, like, what am I going to do with x plus 2, you know, parentheses, y subtract, 8 parentheses equals what? You know, it just does not translate. Although it made me become a better. A critical thinker. So I have a love hate relationship with Matt. [00:07:25] Speaker B: That's fair. Listen, I'm sure there are people that use those equations. I am not one of those people. [00:07:30] Speaker A: Right, right, right, right. [00:07:32] Speaker B: I'm done. [00:07:33] Speaker A: Right. [00:07:35] Speaker B: All right. What do you think should be. Now this can be like an actual subject or you can make one up. What do you think should be a required class for everyone? [00:07:43] Speaker A: I would create a class that helps people to learn about what it means to be poor and experience homelessness in this country. And the reason being is because when I first started at Simmons College of Kentucky as a professor and director of the Open Doors Initiative, I was tasked with, with an opportunity really to build a concentration that literally focused a degree major on public policy and through the lens of homelessness. It actually was. I designed courses, I wrote the courses. I came up with the curriculum. And what is it Courses like, what does it mean to, you know, humanize marginalized communities? Courses like, what does it mean to understand stigma, social stigma, and how it actually impacts somebody who may be different from you or emerge from a different social location. Courses like, you know, how to be a resourceful community member. Like, how to actually get out there in the community and build relationships and mobilize and collaborate with all types of resources to pull together resources for those who may be left out. And so I would say a course on poverty, poverty 101, homelessness 101. Just so people can understand that sometimes it's harder to navigate and overcome these plights than people actually realize. [00:09:22] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, we're going to get into that syllabus a little bit and the rest of this interview in just a minute. So I like that answer. Before we do, though, what would be your go to study snack? [00:09:34] Speaker A: Go to study snack. Coffee it. Is that. Is that a snack? Probably peanuts. Okay. Cashews, actually. Yeah. [00:09:53] Speaker B: Yeah, I like it. That's a good one. If you were going to go back today for a different career path and it doesn't matter what skills you have or don't have in reality, what would you choose? [00:10:03] Speaker A: Stand up comedy. [00:10:04] Speaker B: Would you really? [00:10:06] Speaker A: Yeah, I would. No, seriously. [00:10:08] Speaker B: Is that because you're funny or because you wish you were funny? [00:10:12] Speaker A: No, I'm actually told that I can be really funny. And I did stand up comedy, the first part of the. My college experience. So I used to do talent shows and things like that and spoken word poetry and just all about. I was a theater major, like for. At first. Right. And so I love. I love the arts and I use a lot of the arts and what I do present day. [00:10:39] Speaker B: That's very cool. I think theater people and arts people, I don't know. I don't know if it's because they are immersed in like different kinds of people earlier. I just feel like in general, they seem to have a broader sense of the world and are more open to people that are different from them. So I'm just. That that's a correlation that I feel like I seem to notice. [00:11:02] Speaker A: Yeah, well, studies show that the arts can tap into parts of your sensory emotions and things like that that, you know, just logic and rational data cannot kind of reach your heart. So maybe art is everywhere. Right? [00:11:21] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Sorry. Math. [00:11:26] Speaker A: Right. Right. Sorry, Matt. [00:11:28] Speaker B: All right, Well, I have your book right here that is coming out this week and it's called From Dropout to Doctorate. Breaking the Chains of Educational Injustice. Terrence, will you give us a little bit of background of like, what was life like for you? Because I know that a lot of your story went into this book. [00:11:46] Speaker A: It's funny, every time I tell this story, I try to tell it in the. In a way that gives a person the lens to see what I saw as a child growing up in the 1980s, right after the civil rights movement. And still dealing with the residue of redlining, dealing with the residue of othering and all sorts of stigma, social stigma related to the black community. And then being born into a community that was highly impoverished. Right? Not because my community members, my neighbors, my friends, peers and families wanted to live in these communities, but the way that the city was designed in Atlanta, it was designed intentionally. I mean, there are still roads and highways with the same names in place that literally separated communities from one another. Right? Majority culture communities versus black impoverished communities. And I grew up in that. And so I know what it is like to write down the street. And I still can see this being a child and see school buildings that were run down. I can still see, you know, walking into the classrooms where maybe the desks weren't all the way together. They were outdated books. I can still see potholes in the street and the sort of light that makes you lock your doors. If you're a person who has never lived in this type of context, when you're driving by, still see all of that. And so you throw in impoverishment, you throw in, you know, kind of a social justice lens or the injustices that were being done, and then you throw in a trauma. Right? I think I talk about all of these things in a book and how they're all interlocked and related. And that's how I grew up. And, you know, I watched my mom, so strong black woman who overcame a lot, navigate all of these challenges as a. As a single parent and sometimes did not have enough time to really connect with me or my sister because she was working multiple jobs trying to pull things together so we could be stable. Same woman who overcame and went on to get her doctorate as well and became an example. But I lift all of these things up because, you know, when. When you grow up and you don't know where the next meal is coming from, or you have more month at the end of your money, or you are seeing urban hassles, and that is more of, like, a technical term in terms of, like, just the blight that you see around you. You're growing up with not a lot of access to physical models or examples or even relationships of what it takes to overcome or navigate out of these types of environments. Like, you're left with some of the outcomes that can be detrimental to yourself and to the community. And so I try to explain it in a way where people really understand that when I am writing, I'm writing from that lens, but I'm also writing from the lens as an academic as well. [00:15:34] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I. My degree actually is an early childhood education. I got my masters and my national board certification. I taught kindergarten for a long time. So I understand the impact that poverty can have on a kid and on education. But for people listening who maybe are just like, okay, well, your school was a little older or your school is a little more run down, like, can you explain how impoverishment actually affected your education? [00:16:05] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm glad you said that. Because, like, I even talk about in the book that there's research that shows poverty itself is a form of trauma. [00:16:21] Speaker B: Right. [00:16:22] Speaker A: Like, I think sometimes those two things are separated. And I think it's a research. Her last name is Noel. She's talking about how when we separate the two, we don't actually understand the effects of what poverty can do to early childhood development. Connecting with a lesson in class confidence. Right. Social skills, social emotional learning, ptsd. Right. Post traumatic stress disorder. Not able to regulate emotions, Hyperactivity or hyperventilation, anxiety. Like, all of these things can show up as a result of just trauma itself. But if you connect trauma and you see it through the lens of poverty, you add in, say, like, if you're a child and your family is living out of a motel. Right. Or you're sleeping in your car, or you don't have the proper fuse size or socks on. Like, later in the book, I. I write a chapter called Because I ain't got no pencil and a document. [00:17:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:34] Speaker A: Yeah. Thank you. I document Joshua T. Dickerson's poem where he describes a child gets themselves ready, also caring for their sibling. The lights aren't on. The mom wasn't there because you're working. And then they show up in school and they don't have access to a pencil, and they asked the teacher for a pencil, and the teacher asked the student to take off a shoe, and the shoe was given to the teacher in exchange for a pencil. And a sock had a hole in it. And it erupted the classroom of shame and bullying and all of these things. And he writes this poem from the lens of understanding that there are different layers to a student who may emerge from an impoverished context. And there are things that we are not able to see. And poverty itself is more expensive. Right. It's not just economics. It's poverty can be social, emotional, occupational, environmental, spiritual, all of these things. And I don't think people really understand how traumatic poverty can be. [00:18:46] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, even just to relate it to the people listening, like, think about if you're having a meeting or you're at work. Before lunch and you're hungry. It's harder to focus if you are hungry or you didn't get enough sleep or whatever happened. Like, you all. You're gonna get more emotional. What? That doesn't mean crying, but, like, maybe you are reactive. Maybe you're angry. So take all of that, which I think we can all relate to now. Pretend you're five. [00:19:13] Speaker A: Angry. [00:19:14] Speaker B: You're angry right now. You're five. You're five years old, showing up. And then, yeah, your teacher is just like, hey, why can't you stay awake? Why can't you pay attention? I already taught you this. I already said this. Why are you getting in trouble? Like, I just think it completely changes if we can understand that. [00:19:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:19:31] Speaker B: Where are kids coming from? Do you think there's anything that your teachers could have done differently to help you out or even now? [00:19:39] Speaker A: Well, I, you know, I talk about being trauma informed. I think it's a word that is kind of emerging lots of different circles. What does it mean to be trauma informed? And in places of faith and higher ed institutions in K12, but also, what does it mean to be trauma informed in our pedagogy? Right. The things that we teach in our practices. And. And I don't think there was space to really understand the connection between the trauma that is happening in the environment and how that's actually showing up in the classroom and having educational outcomes that may be different from the expectations that an educator has. Right. And so if you don't address the things or even create the safe space to address what's happening in the life, when I say life, because the life of a child or a student is more than just the classroom, the life of a child, then it can show up in ways that has declined, has disengagement, has lack of focus or confidence in the schoolwork. And so, you know, I really think that we are in a place in time now where we have the opportunity and the tools and the language to really understand how we show up more and more present for our students who may be carrying these flights. In the work that we do with Lopeon Walls, we're creating what we call Zion's closet. And it's a spin off from the children's book Zion Learns to See. My daughter was all about teaching her peers. Like, you know, when it comes to compassion and kindness and serving your neighbor, there's no age limit. Right. And she used to do these campaigns and get like all of her peers. Sometimes the whole school would get involved and donate change to be aware about Other students who may be in the school who are unhoused. And she kind of wanted to turn this into a resource center, whereas Title 1 schools are actually giving us a classroom. And we go in, we retrofit it. There are washing machines and dryers in there. Why? Because there are schools who have many families who can't wash their clothes, and they don't want their children embarrassed with going into a classroom and not able to really engage with the school lesson because they're being bullied because of the stains on their clothes. There's refrigeration in there. Why? Because some families don't have access to the food that you were talking about. There are computer labs specifically for parents. Why? Because there is a digital divide, and parents do need to fill out job applications. There's a place for parents to meet with counselors and social workers. It's a resource hub that functions as a community center right in the school. And, you know, Kristen, when I think about these things, I'm like, there's so many ways and so many ways we can show up and not necessarily question, because being trauma informed, it doesn't ask the question, what's wrong with you? It asks the question, what happened to you? [00:23:17] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And that changes everything about what we expect back from the answer, as well as how we then respond to yes to the answer. So Love Beyond Walls, you mentioned. Really quick, is that just in Atlanta right now, or are you guys broadening out? [00:23:34] Speaker A: Yes, it's center based in Atlanta. We serve about four or five cities here that surrounds the Atlanta area. But we have done campaigns where we've worked with communities all across the country. Chicago, Denver, Colorado. San Francisco, Houston, Texas, Austin, Texas. We've done a lot of work through initiatives with partners all around the country, specifically to work with individuals who are experiencing homelessness. [00:24:10] Speaker B: Okay, we'll link that up so people can get involved and donate if they feel called to do that. Talk to me. Well, talk to us, Terrence, about your decision to leave home, because I think there's a big misconception when it comes to people who do experience homelessness. [00:24:28] Speaker A: I. I don't know why I got emotional right now. But when you think about home, what do you think about? Some people think about getting off work, driving across town, longing to sit on their favorite part of the sofa or sit in their favorite chair. Others gloat about maybe a new coffee maker. Some people like to, you know, hide out in the kitchen and put on their chef's robe and cook a meal for their family. Others like watching movies Right. With their favorite sibling. Right. If they have a favorite sibling, or their sibling, their parent, their child, their cousin, their aunt, their grandmother, whatever it may be. Home is not just about a roof or four walls. Home within itself is about the space and place where you feel belonging, where you feel accepted, where you feel seen and valued. And so when I hear the word home, you know, I like to define it first, because home doesn't mean everything to everyone, right? Some people find home within the barbershop or beauty salon. Some people find home in a teacher's classroom who says, use my classroom as a sanctuary. Some people find home in the back of a church after a service, in a prayer group, in a discipleship group. Some people find home in the most, you know, counter cultural places than what people may define it as. Right? And so I bring this up because I want to pose the question before I answer is what happens when home is disrupted? You know, what happens when relationships aren't as they should be, or you're not as close to your family as you thought it would be, or maybe you don't feel safe and understand that disruption. So much so that I decided to leave my house as a teenager. When we talk about conflict within the context of home, I don't think sometimes we understand what that actually means for everyone who may be involved in a family conflict or whatever that may mean. So I found myself on the opposite side of family conflict, feeling safer and trying to figure out and navigate how do I find home outside of the house. Right? And I say that vulnerably because I want people to understand that homelessness is not monolithic. Everybody does not have the same story. And we have to push back against the single story narrative as it relates to this subject. Because some people lost jobs, some people lost loved ones, some people became ill, some people was with a newfound disability, some people could no longer cope, some people were laid off jobs, which is one of the leading causes and triggers as it relates to homelessness. This is my research area. So I'm just saying, like, I think we need to think more expansively about the subject and understand that everyone's journey and entrance into it is unique to them. And when we generalize the experience of homelessness, when you think about me as a young teenager standing at a gas station begging for change, there's a story behind that experience. When you see someone living in a tent, maybe, or living out of their car, there's a story behind that. And you know, it's someone's son, it's someone's cousin. Is someone's aunt, is someone's mother, it's someone's grandmother, is someone's brother, is someone's sister. Like, these are actual, living, breathing human beings. And I answer this way, Kristen, because I do have that experience briefly, but I also have that experience, and I remember the kindness that people showed me, like Mr. Moore, Mr. Shaw. I remember my friend Jeremy and people who saw my worth beyond my experience or what was happening in terms of my family conflict. And I'll leave. I'll. I'll wrap up the answer with this. The experience is personal. [00:29:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:44] Speaker A: You deal with the labels, you deal with the misunderstanding. You deal with the weight of it all and the uncertainty and the isolation. And I think it's also important for people to realize they have an opportunity to become home to people who may find themselves as outsider. [00:30:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:10] Speaker A: You know, what does it mean to live with an ethic of welcome and belonging? And so I don't know if that answers your question, but I just want to give people a wide range as they think about what home means to them, but also, like the experience of others. [00:30:28] Speaker B: Yeah, I know there's a poem that is really more about immigration, but one of the lines that always sticks with me is, no one leaves home unless home is the mouth of a shark. And I just think that applies here, too. Like, I think it's very easy for those of us who have never experienced this at all. We've never experienced not having a home to go back to at the end of the day or after a season or whatever. And so I think there is a narrative, whether it's been passed down generally generationally or however, that either people deserve to be there or it's something, you know, a choice that they made on their own. And I think when we can wrap our minds around the idea of, like, maybe this was safer for them than the home that they were in, like, that that changes everything. And I think that that, again, like we've said earlier, I think that can then change the way people respond, even to people that they see. You know, I know in Atlanta you probably have a decent sized population of people that are without homes. I know in Charlotte we do as well. And as a church, we pack these, like, care packs every now and then that we encourage people to, like, hey, make these. Keep them in your car so that you can hand them out. But if nothing else, like, I'll just keep snacks. And when I run out, even just eye contact and a smile, I think can go a lot farther than just, you know, staring straight ahead. And pretending that we don't see an actual human person that's standing right there. And it's because we've got our judgments and our preconceived notions that, like, they're not even deserving of our attention. Like, what is that? [00:32:03] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. It reminds me of dear brother named Titus that talked about fear from the other side. I'll never forget, you know, him being in our community. And when he said it, I. I asked, what does that mean? He says, sometimes fear is good, right? Like, fear, if I touch that soul is too hot. Like that is like a buffer. Like it to remind me, like, I don't want to burn myself or electrical sock or whatever. But he says, there is a part of fear that people can have of you that can also be damaging to your self worth. And I say, what do you mean by that? He says, it hurts me when I stand on a corner and I have someone who sees me and turns their head. That fear damages my sense of self worth and causes me to question whether I belong in community. [00:33:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:10] Speaker A: Because public sanitation of the unhoused community is not just displacement and moving people from place to place, out of sight, out of mind. A form of public sanitation is also the invisibility that we create when we lock our doors, when we don't have the sense of acknowledgment. Acknowledgment is powerful. Calling somebody by their name is powerful. It is transformative. It says, I see you, that you matter. You belong. You are worthy of. Of acknowledgment and love and compassion and attention. You're worthy of presence. You are worthy of proximity. You are worthy of the thing that everybody or the way that the social landscape has designed to make you think that you are other and that you are not worthy of these things. And so acknowledgement is powerful. And it cuts through the noise of invisibility. It cuts through the noise of. Of stigma. It cuts through the noise of apathy. It cuts through the noise of my brother Titus and many others that we've encountered a feeling that the sting of someone else's fear on the other side. And so I'm not saying be naive with the ways in which you engage community. What I'm saying is that you have to reframe. You see other people, because some people are suffering, are in isolation, are being excluded. And it's our compassion that reminds them that God's love is expansive and that it's enough of God and God's love to. To create the type of space where they belong. So I don't know if I said that. Well, I just. I'm so passionate about belonging and pushing back against invisibility. [00:35:19] Speaker B: I appreciate that. I want you to take it actually one step further. So for people that are listening, who can't relate because they've never again experienced any kind of impoverishment, or what would you encourage or maybe challenge them to do? Because it's easy, right, to say, of course, I love these people. Like, God loves them. Of course. Like, I have no. I'm not afraid of them. I have no ill will against them. I don't want bad for them. Like, good. That's a starting place. But, like, what would you encourage or challenge them to do next? [00:35:54] Speaker A: Yeah, this is the reason I wrote When We Stand, and let me tell you why. So I think that there is a lot of willing people, right? There's just not a lot of available people. What do you mean by that? Most times when I'm asked this question as it relates to how do I. How do I show up? How do I, you know, impact those. Because I do care, right? I do have a heart. The immediate question that I asked back is, when can you show up? And they'll pull out their cell phones and they're like, I'm busy. I have this, I have that. Oh, I got this. This is coming up. And they have no margin for service. They're willing, they're just not available. I always tell people to start with what's on their plate because you can't have service be a lifestyle if you're still treating it like an event. You can't have. You can't have service and showing up to impact those around you who need you, who need your support and your compassion, if you aren't even available to do so in the rhythmic way. And so I always push back and I say, what's on your plate? Why can't you go serve? Why can't you give an hour or two, a month or a week? You know? And then I asked them to go a step further. I say, do you even know what's around you? [00:37:28] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:37:29] Speaker A: Have you taken time out after you've created enough margin to research what's around you? Because even if you're afraid to go out on the streets or do things on your own, you can practice wise courage. Because chances are there are things in the community that are going on right now that could use an extra set of hands, extra set of feet, you know, to contribute to the change that is happening in the lives of human beings and people. And I say these two things. First, Christian, is because, one, you got to free up time to serve, because if God is calling you to make an impact and you're not available, then how will you ever make an impact? And two, you have to be aware of what's around you. You know, how many people live in their bubbles, right? And it's just me and mine, and, you know, no, no more. It's just like you. You kind of close yourself off to the life that's happening outside of that bubble. And so I think a part of it, too, is trying to figure out a way for you to not just escape, but burst your bubble, right? To go to areas and parts of town or get involved with organizations or your church, your faith community, in ways that. That allows you to push past the boundaries that you set for yourself, you know? You know, find yourself in the wild. And it's not necessarily about becoming something different. There are gifts and skill sets and talents that you can use that you already possess, that you use in your actual career. Like, there are attorneys who come and volunteer to help people who are unhoused in our community recover their identification cards, because why they have that knowledge. There are people who are chefs who love to cook, who make meals for community members. There are educators who volunteered their time to tutor people. One brother that I talk about at the end of the book so he could get his high school education completed long past he had stopped going to high school. There are people with carpentry skills who've helped us to build a museum. We built the first museum called the Dignity Museum, that represents the subject of homelessness in the United States of America. There's all sorts of things that you could put your hands to, but you have to have time, right? It has to become a rhythm. You have to know what's going on around you. You have to align that with your. Your already existing skill set. And here's the last thing. Find a community. Because sometimes when we see complex issues or things that's going on, we're saying, like, if I give, like, a little hour, what is that going to do, right? We. We have paralysis where we don't think the things that we contribute will make a difference, but we have to push back against that thinking, because it's not just about us. It's about a community of change, right? What if 100 people gave an hour? What if a thousand people gave an hour? What if 10,000 people gave an hour? You have collective impact, and it's just not just one single, you know, person given an hour. And then the last thing I'll say is this. If you have children, serve with your children. You know, one of the greatest things that me and my wife Cecilia have done is serve alongside our children. And we've made service as a core value. And the reason being is because we never wanted to use service of others as punishment. Right. My. My children don't know the difference between having fun when we go out to eat or go to the movies or going to serve. It's all fun because it's been a fixture in our home since their inception. And so I'm saying that you have to adopt service as a lifestyle, and it just does not happen in the organization or it happens on your job, it happens in your family, it happens at church. It happens in your community. You have to live with it, and it has to ooze out of you. So, yeah, I'm passionate about that. [00:41:58] Speaker B: I love it. I love it. Shifting it away from an event, I think some people listening and listen, I would include myself in that for a while. Like, I had to look myself in the mirror and go, you are saying you care about all these things, but what are you doing about it? And I do think it has to move from. If it's just an event, if it's something performative, if we're like, I need to serve to check off this, you know, good Christian checklist. You're never going to make the time or you're going to do it once and you're going to move on and be like, yay me. Pat on the back. Yeah, we do have to make it. I'll use myself as example, not to toot my own horn, but after I had this, you know, conversation with myself and with Holy Spirit, I was very upset about what is happening to some of our Hispanic and Latinx communities. I was very upset about the way that people are just getting picked up. And I didn't feel like there was much I could do about it. And I've studied and I've put the time in, and I'm getting myself educated on immigration and the broken system and the processes and all of that. But I was like, but what can I do here? I don't live in a border city. And so God was like, well, you could learn to speak Spanish. And I was like, I am 43 years old. I cannot learn another language. And I am four weeks in now to learning Spanish not because I want to preach in Spanish or write a book in Spanish, but because I am like, if I actually think that I will do something to help. If I find myself in a situation where someone needs assistance, I have to be able to actually do it. And so, like you said, it took creating margin. It took telling my husband, hey, for these eight Mondays, I'm going to need to go. I need you to come home from work early and be with the kids so that I can do this, because it actually matters. So I have to, like, put my money where my mouth is, in a sense, and work into my life. You know, that's. [00:43:57] Speaker A: Wow. So a part of service is connected to inconvenience and sacrifice. [00:44:05] Speaker B: Sure. [00:44:07] Speaker A: But inconvenience is not necessarily a bad thing. I don't think inconvenience is the thing that God uses the most to make impact. [00:44:16] Speaker B: Yeah. Inconvenience is going to burst that bubble. [00:44:20] Speaker A: Right? Yo, like, that's the Good Samaritan, right? [00:44:23] Speaker B: Yes. [00:44:25] Speaker A: He could have stayed on the road. He inconvenienced himself and turned off. [00:44:30] Speaker B: Yep. [00:44:31] Speaker A: And then he came where the man was. Right. Wow. That'll preach. [00:44:36] Speaker B: Yeah. And I'm not saying that's. It's not prescriptive. That's not for everybody. That was just, you know, for me. [00:44:41] Speaker A: Yeah. You. You have to find your. Your. Your sacrifice. [00:44:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:46] Speaker A: You have to find your inconvenience, because there's a calling that is associated with that. [00:44:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:44:53] Speaker B: Well, Terence, you talk in the book about how you did go back and graduate, and not only that, but you got multiple degrees. And I think that people listening, it's easy to go, good for you. And that's so great. And they maybe would just want to be like, but now, why doesn't everyone just do this? And I know it's not necessarily that simple. So can you talk a little bit about maybe what keeps people from having the same, you know, happy ending that you have, unpack, kind of what some of the things are that get in the way of. Of people being able to go back to school or complete the degrees that they maybe want to have. [00:45:31] Speaker A: Yeah. Wow. I mean, the. The more I. More I talk about my. My journey, I'm realizing, like, I. I've done a lot of these conversations, the more I am realizing one, how. How grateful I am for these spaces to share. But also, like. Like, I was talking to a friend last night. I say, man, like, when I. When I go out sometimes and I talk and I. I may preach in front of a lot of people or speak, you know, in certain places, always find time to say, like. Like, I. I traveled a long way to get here. [00:46:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:46:29] Speaker A: And what I mean by that, it's, it's not just about geography. Like, oh, like you drove two hours in the car, like it was a four hour flight. Like, man, you, you overcome so much social lack. Not having the right relationships, not having any bootstraps, not even being close to a track so someone can hand you a baton, not ever having anyone sit you down to talk to you about education as a pathway. You know, a lot of, a lot of the things, you know, not having an address at times or like growing up with violence and trauma and all of the things, like, all of those create opportunities for many people to just tap out. [00:47:29] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:47:29] Speaker A: There's research that shows that if you're impoverished that it could take 20 years. Right. It was released by the Atlantic. 20 years to overcome poverty without anything going wrong. Right. This economist did this research study on social capital. Like how important it is to just have a network of people who could give you access to upward mobility. You know, you, when you think about it, what is your community value? What, what the, what is the value of your community? Right. Who can you call if you get a flat tire? Who can you call if you, or isolated and you don't have access to a community? You know, so much comes from community networking resources, wisdom, wealth, relationships, support systems, all those things. But like, sometimes when you find yourself in a situation or environment where there's a lot of lack of that, it's hard to overcome. So I journey a long way to be here, Kristen. It's not just, you know, I managed a bunch of degrees. I had to, I had to tap into resilience, had to read books. I, I, you know, I collected a lot of books. When I didn't have mentors to sit me down and talk to me about a clear path, I had to become a questionary where I had to ask strangers for the type of advice that sometimes I couldn't get within the context of my own family. I had to tap into a form of grit. I had to open myself up to strangers who became family, who I talk about all literate throughout the book, who, like Mr. Eason, who, when I was working in the back of a warehouse, told me, son, if you want to go to college, I believe in you. I saved up a half of a tuition check. I talked to the registrar to get into a Bible college. I go to Bible college. I start, my car breaks down. Dr. Joe, who is my preaching professor, said that I'm going to loan you my car for an entire year. So you don't give up. Because I went into the Chapel and prayed to God, God help me not to give up. And I go into the classroom and I make the statement, hey, you know, I don't think I'm going to be able to finish. He pulls me aside. I didn't know Dr. Joe from Adam. He walked. He says, stay out to class. He walks me into his office. He says, my wife is a nurse. He, he walks me outside to this expedition. He says I can get a ride up here. And he allows me to, to use his car. Mr. Eason, who passed away not too long ago, one of the last text messages he, he sent me was that I was one of the greatest investments he ever made. We're talking about a multi, multi real estate developer. Like he, he developed subdivisions and apartment complexes. He was a mogul in real estate. And I told him my story one time and how I wanted to overcome. And he helped to pay for my tuition. The same man that walked my wife down the aisle, like he saw something in me. And he was a deacon in the church. And he, he allowed me to borrow his wisdom and, and his courage for my life and apply it to my, to my. There like nobody as a linear path where it's just like cookie cutter and you, you make it. I did not make it. Had it not been for the community of people who stepped up and filled voids when I had big gaps and huge voids in my life. Like, so I want people to understand it's not just about a single story. Like, I'm a rarity. And I tell my story in a way I should not be the rarity. People and students should not have to wake up every single day and be traumatized by their impoverishment to the point where they can't even dream of a future. Like, I was in the neighborhood not too long ago, meeting someone for just lunch. And, you know, I saw kids riding on golf carts. And I say, man, imagine a world where as a, as a child you can pull up to a restaurant in a golf cart in a community where you feel safe and not even think about anything of scarcity to the point where it doesn't cause you to have some sort of fear of dreaming beyond your context or environment. And so, you know, it's like when people ask these types of questions, ask them back how far, how long did you journey to get where you are, right? And when you think about that and you think about someone who maybe had to travel a journey further than you, who had to display more resilience or more grit or whatever it took for them to overcome the adversity, then you have a deeper appreciation of someone's will. And faith and community allowed them to rise when everything around them suggested that they should fall. [00:53:07] Speaker B: Yeah, well, and I think what's really beautiful about the book that you've given us, Terrence, and I really hope people read it. I'm looking in on a page here. You've got the Generational Trauma and Educational Inequity framework. And I know people that are on YouTube can look at it. Not that they can read it. Listeners obviously can't see it. But I just highlight that to say this book is full of information and research and educa. Like facts. So this is. This is your story. And your story is powerful, but it also is. There's so much information in here that will help people who really, truly do not understand to maybe help them to see from somebody else's perspective. Second to last question for you, because I know we're talking a lot about educational injustice, and it's very easy for. For people listening to go, well, I'm not in the education system. I'm not a teacher. I don't work for the school board. I'm not on the school board. What can people listening do? Like, what can we actually do to try to make our education, education system more equitable and inclusive? [00:54:15] Speaker A: I think I was talking on another podcast, and the host made this aha. Moment. Said schools. He just kept saying schools. I was like, what's going on? You know, he says schools and churches are where the community is. When you think about it, students are connected to parents, and parents are connected to families. Like, a school is where the community is. And if you care about the community, you should also care about the schools. Because schools aren't just factories. They're. They're spaces where our future leaders are dreamers, innovators, entrepreneurs, future business owners, doctors, lawyers. And we have to make sure that we're supporting schools in ways that give students and children, we're talking about children, equal opportunities to achieve the dreams that yourself may be living. And that could look like attending meetings. That could look like rallying people together in your church and reaching out to the school to kind of see what needs are not being met in the student population and organizing drives to actually support those needs. I mean, that's how Zion's Closet started. We started with one school, and we uncovered, like, man, the school that we started in has the largest population of homeless students in the entire school system. Just that one school. And so we asked very specific questions. What do your students need. Or better yet, what do the educators need here who are in the trenches supporting these students? And they came up with a list. And from there, we took it and ran with with it. We organized volunteers. We had people coming in and painting, and some of the students who are being impacted, we will never meet, but we know that we are serving the community because schools are where the community is. And I would just also encourage people to dream. Dream of what you could do if you guys got involved. [00:56:37] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, last question for you, Terrence, which I ask everybody, and it's a bit of what you just kind of touched on, but I just want to expand it to whatever is on your heart right now. Whatever broken thing maybe you're grieving, whatever thing you're dreaming about, you know, hoping for in the future for the people that are listening. Because the show is called Becoming Church. How can the people that are listening become the church to the people around them right now? [00:57:07] Speaker A: Pause a little bit before I share, because your podcast is. The name of. It is so powerful. It makes me think about how we push past, you know, what we say and what we believe and ask ourselves, how does it show up in practice? You know, and I think a part of that is what we've been discussing the entire episode, is awareness. Awareness should drive us to be educated, and education should lead us to empathy, and empathy should then in turn lead us to action. We need to act, but we have to become aware, and we have to allow our hearts to be open and broken to the point where we are grieved at what's going on around us. You were so grieved that you wanted to learn Spanish. Why? To stand in solidarity with your neighbors who are being taken off the streets. I'm so grieved at the fact that some people may stand outside of a coffee shop and have the police called on them because. For being unhoused, for trying to access Wi Fi. I'm so grieved that I will buy a cop a cup of coffee for an individual and have a conversation to let them know that they, too, are part of the community. You have to be so grieved that you are moved with compassion. Like Jesus. Like in Matthew 9, it says that he saw people were weary and helpless and like sheep with no shepherd, and he was. I love that verse because it says he was moved with compassion. But the. The second part of that, he says, the harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few. So when I read, you know, the name of your podcast, Becoming Church, I think it's Speaking to the people who are tired of, like, being in the crowd, of not doing anything and want to become the laborers, who are the few. The few that see people. The few that. That stand in solidarity with folks who've been marginalized. The few who says, these issues are going on in my backyard and have to do something about it. The few that says, lord, these are my gifts and talents. Show me where. Show me, Holy Spirit, where to use these gifts and talents to make a difference in the lives of other people. Because we've all been given these gifts in a way that we are able to steward them. Not to hoard these things for ourselves, but to ask ourselves where. Like, like Isaiah, send me, where do I go? How do I make an impact? That's how we become church. And we have to have our hearts broken for us to. To do that. And, yeah, so, like, I'm. I'm just really struck by the name of this podcast, and I appreciate this space we have to become church, but I think that's connected to awareness, education, empathy. And the last one is action. You have to act. [01:00:26] Speaker B: Amen. That'll preach. That'll preach right there. Terrence, thank you so, so much. I'm really grateful for your work. I'm really proud of you. I know that this cannot be easy. I mean, all the things you've gone through and come through and now to continue to talk about it and really honestly and vulnerably go back to the pains and the hurts, and you're showing up fully to bring awareness and education. And so just thank you for what you're doing, for being here, but also just for what you're doing and what you're allowing God to do in and through you. I think it's really beautiful. [01:00:59] Speaker A: Amen. Thank you so much for creating this space for me. [01:01:07] Speaker B: Because you're here and you're listening. I know that you. You're one of the few people that Dr. Terrence was talking about. You have your eyes and your ears open and you're willing to keep your heart tender toward people instead of hardening it to double down on protecting what's inside your bubble. Now, listen, the workers may always be few, but that doesn't mean that we can't add to the number. Please share this episode, follow Dr. Terrence on social media and read his books, share his books with other people. You can all bring awareness, even if you haven't quite figured out the margin for action yet. Sure, there are people who are deliberately turning a blind eye to the reality of the community around them. There are others who just haven't been informed yet and you might be the one that God is waiting on to show them. It's as easy as texting a link to this episode or to the book and saying, hey, let's get coffee and sit down and talk about this. After you listen. I'm so incredibly proud of you for being here and for letting your compassion move you to action. Try to look for one small way that you can do that this week. Until next time, thanks so much for listening and keep becoming the church to the people around you.