Heather Thompson Day: What if I’m Wrong?

[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Mueller Young, and my guest today is Dr. Heather Thompson Day. Heather was a communications professor who has taken all she's learned about the meaning of words and how to effectively navigate conversation so that she can help equip people in using their voices in their everyday lives, especially when it comes to representing Jesus in the world. If you've listened to this podcast before, you'll know that that's the heart behind this show and exactly why I asked. [00:00:43] Speaker B: Her to join us. [00:00:49] Speaker A: Dr. Heather Thompson Day, welcome to Becoming Church. [00:00:53] Speaker B: I am so happy to be here with you. [00:00:56] Speaker A: I'm so thrilled to have you. And I love. Not that most of the listeners can see this, but I love your pink girly pop headphones there. [00:01:04] Speaker B: Oh, yes. So I was in my, you know, Barbie came out. Was that last year? Barbie? No, it was two years ago. Right. Two years ago when Barbie came out, I was like, I'm going into my Barbie era and I did all pink and that's when I got these headphones and they're still rocking with me. And now to this day, I love it. [00:01:19] Speaker A: I've been in my Barbie era and I'm never leaving. [00:01:22] Speaker B: So, yeah. [00:01:25] Speaker A: So I'm here for. [00:01:26] Speaker B: This is my natural state. [00:01:27] Speaker A: Yeah, I know I'm in a very, like, fall sweater today because, you know, the season, but normally, like, I'm all for the. All the pink all the time. [00:01:35] Speaker B: Yes, yes. I'm enjoying myself. [00:01:37] Speaker A: Well, good. Listen, that's a little peek into who you are. I also went to your website and your website says that you are on this earth to help one person to try one more time, take one more step for one more day. And so I want to use your words for a little Q and A so that our listeners can kind of get to know you a little bit. Okay, so who is someone that you'd love to help or collab or lead with? Like, sky's the limit, doesn't matter if you know him or not. [00:02:04] Speaker B: Oh, I mean, this is going to be a horrible answer, but probably my husband. Like, when I pray, most of my prayers are centered around, like, I just want to spend more time with my family. And I love being in ministry. This is. We're not in ministry together. We were many years ago when he was pastoring. He's teaching now full time. And my dream would be for God to allow us to be ministry together again. [00:02:27] Speaker A: Oh, I actually love that. That's really sweet. [00:02:29] Speaker B: Yeah, that's so sweet. We're besties. I love it. [00:02:32] Speaker A: So you've been married for how long? [00:02:35] Speaker B: 14. Going on 15 years. But we met in sixth grade. So he is quite literally. He was like my best friend at 11 years old. And I had, like, a lot of trauma and horrible things that happened to me in my elementary school days. And so anyway, we just had a very strong bond and. And to this day, he, you know, is still just my best friend. I love that. [00:02:56] Speaker A: I love that. Well, I'm going to pray for you. [00:02:57] Speaker B: That. That too. That. [00:02:58] Speaker A: That will you. But not I will for you and your husband. Because I would love that power couple. I would love to see it. [00:03:05] Speaker B: All right. [00:03:06] Speaker A: What is something that you would love to try but you haven't yet? [00:03:10] Speaker B: That I would love to try. That I haven't yet. [00:03:13] Speaker A: And it doesn't have to be ministry related. It can be any. [00:03:16] Speaker B: Yeah. I don't know. I feel like everything I've really wanted to do, I do. [00:03:23] Speaker A: Okay. [00:03:23] Speaker B: I don't know that I'm somebody that's like, oh, I really want to do this thing, and I've just not done it. [00:03:28] Speaker A: What's a cool thing that you. [00:03:30] Speaker B: Is that a bad thing? [00:03:31] Speaker A: No, I think it's actually pretty. [00:03:33] Speaker B: Oh, I know. I got one. I want to run a marathon. I want to run a marathon or a half marathon. [00:03:38] Speaker A: Because you are a runner, right? [00:03:39] Speaker B: I'm a. I'm a big runner. So I was thinking, like. But I still run, but I have never been in a marathon or a half marathon. And it is a dream of mine. I hope at some point in the next 10 years. Okay. But that'll be something. [00:03:51] Speaker A: What's keeping you from doing it? [00:03:53] Speaker B: Absolutely nothing. There's no re. I have no reason. It's just like. I mean, the. The mental energy to start looking and then start training for that. That's. That's the only thing that's keeping me from doing it. Yeah. [00:04:04] Speaker A: And it takes so much time. Training. [00:04:05] Speaker B: It's gonna take so much time and everybody around. I have multiple people around me that, like, do triathlons. One of my mentors has done, like, several Ironmans. So I'm inspired watching these other women do these things. I'd like to get there at some point. [00:04:19] Speaker A: Okay, well, you will. You will. [00:04:21] Speaker B: Okay. [00:04:21] Speaker A: And I hope you wear Barbie pink tennis shoes. [00:04:23] Speaker B: Absolutely. Now we know Team Barbie. I'll have it on a jersey. [00:04:28] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:04:29] Speaker B: Making dreams come true. [00:04:31] Speaker A: All right, well, talk about stepping into things and taking one more step. What's A location that you would like to step into. [00:04:39] Speaker B: Oh, so one location even. I love Denver. We lived in Denver for a little bit. I'm a big Denver fan. I would love to get back to Denver at some point. Also. I'm a big fan of Clearwater, Florida and Europe. I mean, I. I always have had a dream to take my parents to. That probably won't happen because my dad is very ill, but I always had this dream of taking my dad to Greece. [00:05:03] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:05:04] Speaker B: So that would be a wonderful. That would be a dream. [00:05:07] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. [00:05:09] Speaker B: Greece is. [00:05:10] Speaker A: Is on my list as well. I'm actually going. I forgot. I'm like, oh, I have a. I have a book trip. I'm going. I'm going in. [00:05:15] Speaker B: It's awesome February and I cannot wait. You're going to absolutely love it. So, yeah, it's everything that you think it's going to be. Greece, I think France. I mean, well, I won't say what countries aren't because then, you know, somebody might be listening from there and then they're offended. But like, yeah, very. Like for me, Europe was like, wow, this is everything you think it's going to be. [00:05:35] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. I agree for sure. If you had a. One more day in the week, Heather, and this is like a, you know, we're doing an impossible thing here. We're adding an eighth day. What would you do with that one more day? [00:05:50] Speaker B: Sleep and eat. I am, I'm learning to be more protective of rest in my life. So if I had another day, that's. I would probably feel less guilty dedicating it solely to sleeping and eating and watching. You know, Love is blind uk. [00:06:12] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:06:12] Speaker B: In my. In my bedroom. [00:06:14] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:06:15] Speaker A: Say, as I was typing this question out, I was like, what would mine be? That was my same. I was like, oh, was it? I was like, I need a day to not do everything. And then I heard the voice in the back of my head that was like, hahaha. You would fill it up with everything else like you do all the other seven. Yeah, I would try. [00:06:31] Speaker B: We would feel less guilty. I think that's right. [00:06:36] Speaker A: Well, thank you for playing along, playing my little game with me. Another thing that I think is really important for listeners to know is that you really have a heart for the church as like a body of believers and calling Christians up to actually live out like, what they believe. [00:06:50] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:06:51] Speaker A: So talk to me about that. How did you find that boldness and confidence and just speaking that in everything that you do? [00:06:58] Speaker B: Yeah. I think, well, living with God is what actually I mean, changed my life in miraculous ways. I mean, of course there's inner transformation that happens, but I mean, I have been able to experience stories that people don't believe when I tell them. And so once you experience a life like that, it changes everything. Acts 1:8 says, you shall be witnesses of me. And so I taught communication for many years. I really pay attention to words. Words mean things. To be a witness means something. So if you sit on a witness stand in a courtroom and you start telling everybody what you believe, the judge or one of the lawyers will stop you and say, nobody cares what you believe. Tell us what you have seen and what you have heard. I think we have a lot of Christians who do just the opposite. We tell everybody what we believe and very little about what we have seen and heard. And maybe because we're not seeing or hearing anything, because we're not actually living connected to the power of the Holy Spirit. And so I would invite people, especially as a communication person, to think through, like, what is. When you have conversations with people, don't lead with what you believe. Tell them what you've seen and what you've heard. Tell them your. What you know. In the church, we would say, testimonies. [00:08:19] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:08:20] Speaker B: What have you experienced? People don't want your religion. Honestly. Honestly. And they don't want your politics. They just. They want. But people will always listen if you share your story. So what have you seen and what have you heard? I think this is actually what the disciples were traveling around doing. [00:08:35] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. [00:08:37] Speaker A: Because they were seeing and hearing all kinds of things. [00:08:38] Speaker B: Right. And they were. And then writing them down and telling these stories. [00:08:42] Speaker A: Right. What would you say? I want to know one of your cool things, one of your cool stories. But first, what would you say to the person that's listening, maybe has a little bit of a cynicism voice in the back of their head that's like, well, Good for you, Dr. Heather. But I haven't seen or heard anything cool. But they do call themselves a Christian and believe in God and all the things like. But if they believe their life is not. Doesn't have this big story to tell. [00:09:08] Speaker B: Yeah. I would say, go down your street. So here's what I think. The mistake again in Christianity is often we go through Christianity and we say, God, reveal yourself to me. God is saying, I want to reveal myself in you, not to you. In you. And when you live this way, okay, every single day, this is what I pray. First thing when my eyes open, Lord, help me to make a moment for someone else. Today. So when I'm talking about things that I've seen and heard, it's not necessarily the things that God is doing to bless me. It is what I. When I say, God, open my eyes, that I can help me to make a moment for someone today. And then I go throughout my day, my brain automatically starts looking for people that I get drawn to. And then things that I think are going to be no big deal end up being something. And then I step back and I say, oh, my goodness. Like, in my. It actually could make me cry, like, because I just yelled. Before we even got on this podcast, I had a conversation with my mom about my dad's health and stuff. And I was just feeling frustrated by God. So I'm saying, like, I am somebody who wrestles with God, and in my discomfort or uncertainty or poverty or discouragement, that God would still use me to be a blessing or to bring God into other people's life. It is actually inconceivable to me that heaven works with broken humanity that would yell at their ceilings. It's. So I would say if somebody says, oh, well, that's not happening. I think it's probably because you're not understanding the deal. It's actually for God to be seen in you, not to be revealed to you. So start going out and just asking for eyes to see in, ears to hear. I guarantee you, on your block, there is somebody crying out to God, saying, don't you see me? And God's like, well, I have this person that's supposed to be made in my image that I'm trying to get to go down the street. And they just. They're not. They're not paying attention to the things they're waiting for me to manifest in their living room. Right. Like, he's trying to manifest in you. [00:11:08] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:11:08] Speaker B: And when you get this, I am just telling you, everything changes. Your entire life changes. [00:11:16] Speaker A: Yeah. We have to be willing. I think that your prayer is a really great point. Like, we have to be expectant for it. [00:11:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:23] Speaker A: I think a lot of times we pray and then we're like, check. And then we walk away forgetting that we have even asked God for the thing. And that's so different from, like, praying and then being expectant for God to answer us. Because that is the difference of, okay, now I'm going to be looking. Now my eyes are open for where God actually already is. [00:11:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:44] Speaker A: But also, I think he's revealing himself. It's just like, he's like, hey, I've been here all along, and now you actually are choosing to see. [00:11:52] Speaker B: But we can't control God answering us. This is literally what I was just yelling to him in the bathroom before I got on here with you. I cannot. I don't control God. None of us are in control of God. I'm very acutely aware of that because I have begged and pleaded on certain things that I just. Nothing happens. But. And I say this. You know, in my book, I say this. I had this moment. And this was last year, September. I can remember it. I was on a run, bringing this full circle to what we said earlier. And I was just so frustrated. And I just remember feeling the Holy Spirit say to me, you don't have to believe that I'm being good to you in order for you to go bring goodness to somebody else. Yeah. And you don't have to believe that I am blessing you in order for you to go bring blessing to somebody else. And, Heather, because it is always true that you can choose to bring goodness and blessing to other people. I am available to you at any time you want. [00:12:44] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. [00:12:46] Speaker B: This is the truth. So it's not even like we have to keep asking you. Just go do, like, go. Go to the soup kitchen. Right. Go to the homeless shelter. I promise you, as you start walking, and I think what God is actually calling us to walk into, which is to be his hands and feet instead, waiting on God to manifest in our living rooms. You just won't ask those questions anymore because you'll see that your life matters. [00:13:10] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:13:10] Speaker B: As you're serving somebody a plate of food. Right. You'll know it. Right? [00:13:15] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:13:15] Speaker A: I recently preached a sermon on worship and how it's more than just, like, the music and the songs that we sing. And I love. I love worship. I'm a big worship, really. But about how worship is really our whole lives and everything that we do. And one of my points was that, like, worship is revelation in that our worship doesn't make God, like, show up and exist, but it opens our eyes to, like, actually seeing who he is and where he was. And I had this picture of, like, a sunrise. You know, like, we wait for a sunrise, right? [00:13:44] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:13:44] Speaker A: Go out and it's dark, and you see the sun when it comes up over the horizon. But, like, our waiting for the sunrise didn't make the sun come up. The sun is already. It was already there. [00:13:55] Speaker B: Yes. [00:13:56] Speaker A: We had to take the step of going and sitting and waiting, and then we got to see where it was already present. And I feel like portion is kind of like that, too. It's like. Or just, you know, not just worship, but like praying or all that. We're talking about seeing God. Like God's already present. [00:14:12] Speaker B: Yes. [00:14:13] Speaker A: Are we gonna do what we need to do so that we can see where he's always been? [00:14:18] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:14:18] Speaker A: Or are we just gonna keep being like, no, I make the sun rise by my right. [00:14:23] Speaker B: What I do and how many times I repeat it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:14:29] Speaker A: Well, you. Have you. You mentioned your book, and so I want to talk about it. It's called what if I'm Wrong? And so, Heather, who is this book for? And is it for people, like, maybe in a particular season of life? [00:14:41] Speaker B: It is for anybody who is stuck in deep uncertainty and no longer believes in the plan or the word or the vision that they felt like God had originally given them over their life. You felt this thing you told everybody in the beginning, and then year one goes by in year two and year three and year four and year five. How long does it take for hope to die? It's for that person that is wrestling through what I thought my life was going to be, what I thought God was going to be, and where I am right now. Was I wrong? Was I wrong? Right. [00:15:21] Speaker A: Have you had this moment more than once? [00:15:26] Speaker B: That's a. So I had a. So the book centers on like a three year period of like, I don't know, it would. I would just call it like the. The woods. Like the darkness of this moment that I had in a way that I had never had it before. And I hope I won't have it again. I hope what I learned in that season will change and transform any other season that I have moving forward so that I'm just better equipped. Not that I won't have seasons of darkness and difficulty and uncertainty. I actually think to be Christian is to live in uncertainty. Literally, to follow Jesus means you don't know where you're going. [00:16:01] Speaker A: Correct. [00:16:01] Speaker B: Or else you're not actually following. Right. So uncertainty is actually a mark of a Christian who's doing it. Right. So now that I know these things, right. When I'm in that space like I was before I got on here, I have the tools, I hope, to better process and navigate this journey. But it was a really, really difficult three years where it's funny because I talked to Dr. Allison Cook, therapist, and I just remember on her podcast, and she said, oh, nobody had ever said this to me before. She goes, huh. It's really interesting that as your dad was dying, your image of God was dying. She was like, that makes a Lot of sense. [00:16:39] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:16:40] Speaker B: And I was. [00:16:41] Speaker A: You're so close to him. [00:16:42] Speaker B: Yes. He was like my spiritual person. But she said most children make their image of God based on one of their parents. And I was like, oh, my. I mean, literally, even just saying it to you right now makes me want to throw up. Because that's exactly what happened, is it felt like my image of God was dying, but I didn't connect that it had to do with my dad dying. I just thought, life is so horrible. And God, you seem very unfair. [00:17:06] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:17:07] Speaker A: And that can go, wow, that revelation, I mean, can go multiple different ways. Right. Because somebody listening right now could be like, oh, this is why I actually am mad at God. This is why I, like, very loosely, still holding on, because something is tethering me back to God. But I, like, I'm not super thrilled about it if they didn't have a great relationship with their parents. [00:17:29] Speaker B: Sure. [00:17:30] Speaker A: Or like, you, you know, you. Like, you said you. You love your dad, and he was so foundational in your faith that. [00:17:38] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:17:38] Speaker A: I can see how. Man. Realizing the humanity of our parents is, like, one of the strangest parts of growing up. [00:17:48] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:17:49] Speaker A: Like, it is so hard and so weird to be like, oh, you are also just a person. [00:17:54] Speaker B: Like, I am figuring this thing out. [00:17:56] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:17:59] Speaker A: Well, do you think that this sense of disappointment maybe of, like, what you wanted your life to be or what you hoped it was, do you think that it's unique to people with big passions or drives? [00:18:13] Speaker B: Mm, that's a good question. I. I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. I think. I think a lot of. I actually have met some people that are just like, yeah, I just don't really care. Right. Like, my life, like, whatever. I just kind of want to be happy, and I don't really have dreams. I mean, also, I know the research is often connected to fatherlessness. People who struggle to dream often have difficult relationships with their dad. So that there's a connection there. I can't answer that. But I do know that there are a lot of people that do have this idea of what. Especially Christian people. Right. Because Christianity in some ways really primes you for, like, you're gonna do great things with God. Right. So it really. It's. It's prime for an environment that already is also part of, like, American culture. [00:19:07] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:19:07] Speaker B: And then add social media into the mix. So I think. I think it is a very common experience as we go from, like, young adulthood to older adulthood. And look at the disparity between, you know, because for the first half of your life, you're just working so hard to climb the ladder to get to where you're going to be able to have the family do all those things. And then you kind of reach it and you're like, okay, how does this match what I thought? Right. [00:19:36] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:19:36] Speaker B: Is this it? Am I fulfilled? Am I even happy? I mean, you start doing all that deeper work. And I think a lot of people too, in Covid started doing a lot of that work because we were all home, like the buzz kind of stopped. And I remember, like for myself, that was where a lot of this started coming up for me was in the time I just wasn't so busy that I couldn't think. [00:19:57] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:19:58] Speaker B: And now I'll never go back. I will never go back to being so busy that I can't think. I want to fully understand my reactions in my body. I always say to somebody when they're like, how do you train? How do you know that it's God? I'm like, man, if you can't feel the wind, you're not going to hear God. Like, let's just start there. If we can't go into nature and hear the birds, you're not going to probably hear the Holy Spirit, which is a deeply internal experience instead of what's. If we can't notice what's external, if you can't see like the sadness in your neighbor, of course you're not going to have these deep supernatural experiences. You're not even in your own body. [00:20:36] Speaker A: Oh, so you're saying they have to really start with like a self awareness. [00:20:40] Speaker B: Before they can see. [00:20:42] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:20:42] Speaker A: Outside. Okay. [00:20:44] Speaker B: I think we have to slow way down to even know what we are actually feeling. At least I did. [00:20:50] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:20:51] Speaker A: What did you do after Covid that you said, I'll never go back to being that busy? What shifts did you make so that your life looks different now? [00:20:59] Speaker B: Yeah. My mentor said to me, assume the role wherever you see yourself ten years from now. Those are the choices you make today. Because it's not going to magically happen 10 years from now. And what he meant by that was, if you want to be a person 10 years from now, that's traveling all over the country, not home with their family, taking every speaking engagement you get. Keep going. And if you don't want to be that person, even right now, when you may only be getting two calls a month and it feels like, well, I got to take them both because these are the only ones I got, say no because you're teaching yourself the type of person that makes the choices that you actually want to make. Right. And so I started doing that. I just made this. I talked to my family. We made a rule where I only go two weekends a month. And so. And now, you know, I might have six or seven invitations a month. Well, I'm saying no, obviously, to most of those, but this is a practice. I started doing. Not now. I started doing it when I actually really, really, really needed the money. Okay. Right. But if I can't do that when I really need it, I'm not gonna know. How will I? How am I gonna know what to take later? You know what I mean? [00:22:02] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. [00:22:04] Speaker A: I think for the person that's like, no, I'm still trying. I'm still striving. I'm still. And that was. That was me not that long ago. And it is still me to an extent. I think that's where you have to go. Okay. Number one, why am I actually striving this hard? And number two, do I trust God to actually bring me. [00:22:22] Speaker B: There you go. [00:22:24] Speaker A: What I think he's given me to do, if I genuinely believe. And it's hard. Listen, it is so hard. And I'm telling you, a couple of years ago, if I heard this on podcast, I'll be like, I'm out. I'm done. [00:22:34] Speaker B: Like, yeah, no, I'm still doing it. I'm still like, tell my husband I have to wrestle the bull. I have to wrestle down the bowl every morning. But I'm aware. Before, I wasn't even aware, but I know I want to be somebody that knows my kids. [00:22:48] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:22:48] Speaker B: That. Honestly, if I die next week, here's the truth. When I'm traveling, they're not going to care. They're going to make a post on social media that goes, oh, did you guys hear Heather Thompson Day died? That's so sad. She was so great. I really liked her. So that's what's going to happen. [00:23:03] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:23:03] Speaker B: But my family is going to be stuck in that day for the next ten years. Stuck. Right. So where should I give the majority of my energy? I want to make sure I am so present with my husband and with my kids. That's. That's a value to me. And I want to make sure that I am so present with the Lord. So I kind of started about. I think it was in Covid. It was probably 2019. I started rearranging the way I did my everyday life. Okay. [00:23:30] Speaker A: Just the schedule, just the way you like, time blocking or what time I. Yeah. [00:23:35] Speaker B: So that's One, I mean, I started. I had a friend that said because I would, especially when I was teaching, it would. I would spend all day with students. And my friend said, you know, you should really put time in your calendar for whatever. If you want to go on a walk around your campus and have a time with God, actually put that in your calendar. Because what's happening is when the students come, you're saying, well, it's free. And so you're just giving everybody else your time. She says, you need to block out your time for you first. And so that was the first thing I did actually, other than. I mean, I've been having. I always get up to have worship. I mean, there's. I've been doing this for 14, 15 years. I spend. We get up at 4:30 in the morning, my husband and I both, and we spend time together drinking our coffee first. And then I have worship and I spend time with God. I will. You will. And that was part of. Too like my kids. I don't want to be a mom who hasn't done that. And what I mean is, I know in myself I am shorter and more frat. I am quicker to like jump on them if I have not had time with God first. I am a better teacher when I have connected to the Lord first. I am more compassionate, more graceful, more if I do that. So if I really care about these things, let me show up for them in the way that I think I was actually designed to show up for them. And also let me say no. [00:24:51] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:24:52] Speaker B: To a bunch of stuff. Right. Like, let's. So that I'm able to go on a walk. I was just. It sounds really stupid, but it really does change your life. [00:25:02] Speaker A: Yes. Well, I was gonna say that's exactly what I was. That exact phrase, Heather. Because for me, I had to let go of like the shame and the guilt of going for a walk in the middle of the day. I have incredibly flexible work hours most days. [00:25:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:17] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:25:18] Speaker A: And I would feel so bad at like 2 o' clock being like, I need a break. A break for my brain. I need to go for a walk. I just need 30 minutes to like either think and process or pray or honestly turn everything off and like listen to something that is gonna. Or make me laugh, like just break out of it. And I used to feel so bad and so weird about it. And I was like, number one, I am lucky enough to have a job that I can do that. So why should I not take advantage of. [00:25:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:46] Speaker A: Making my own schedule. And also it does. It Makes me a better person. It makes a better mom. After I go for a walk, I just am. [00:25:53] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:25:54] Speaker B: My therapist, I remember she said this to me once. She was like, what are you doing for self care? And I said, I don't know. I'm like, I'll watch like five episodes of Survivor back to back. Because that's, for me, Survivor is like a thing. I don't know what it is. It numbs my brain. I love Survivor. And she. And I, she was like, oh, okay. Do you feel better or worse after you watch five episodes of Survivor back to back? I said, oh, gosh, I think I feel worse. [00:26:19] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:26:19] Speaker B: And she was like, so that's not self care. Self care are the things that we do that afterwards we feel better. So when you go on a run, do you feel better or worse afterward? Oh, I feel better. When I go on a walk, I feel better. For me, I remember, like, I would visit my grandma in the nursing home and it's in my mind. I was like, well, that's not self care. I don't want to do that. But guess what? Every time I did it, I felt better afterwards. Right. So just thinking through that was a helpful frame for me. Whoever's listening, what makes you feel better after that is how now I am able to keep serving and showing up and having eyes to see and ears to hear. Because it is, if you. It is not a joke. Like, it is so much work to not get caught up in yourself. It. At least for me it is. [00:27:03] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:27:03] Speaker B: It's very easy for me to spiral in my own difficulties, my own circumstances, and then I can't see the people around me. [00:27:11] Speaker A: What? So you just kind of mentioned this a little bit. That's a really good question for us to ask. Right. Do we feel better or worse after doing a particular thing? [00:27:19] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:27:19] Speaker A: But you also talked about in your book a little bit, people maybe just kind of like, we don't want to, like, just resign in life and stay safe or play safe or be numb. What are some symptoms that maybe people could look for to know? Oh, this is what I'm doing. Like, I'm not pursuing a dream, I'm not living passionately, and I am just kind of resigning back in my own life. [00:27:43] Speaker B: Okay, here's what made it very clear to me. Okay. My therapist said to me, who are you? Okay. And the immediate answers that I gave was everything about my job. Oh, what you do? [00:27:55] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [00:27:56] Speaker B: And that was when I said, oh, so that's what I would say, that if you can't Answer who? If. If your answer of who are you? Goes back to what you are producing, there's a disconnect in your own. I'm literally in your body. I promise you, between your body and your mind and your heart, there's a disconnect. You start answering who you are. Okay. Ask yourself that question. And then we start looking at, why am I here? But if you don't know who you are, you're not gonna be able to answer why you're here. [00:28:26] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. [00:28:28] Speaker A: Well. [00:28:28] Speaker B: And again, you're not here to clock in. [00:28:30] Speaker A: Right. Right. Which makes it really tricky when your job is ministry. [00:28:34] Speaker B: I will say. Yeah, but that's what I'm saying. For me, too. Right. Let me tell you this, Kristen, you'll appreciate this. I don't know about everybody else, but literally this is last week. I felt like the spirit said to me, you don't work for me. And I have spent my entire life saying, I work for God. [00:28:51] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:28:52] Speaker B: And I felt like God said, you don't work for me. I work in you. And there is a massive difference. And the difference is that you think you are in control. If it's your work now, you control the outcome. It is not your work. It is me who is at work. You are supposed to die to yourself that I can be resurrected in you. This is my work. These are my outcomes. All you do is be obedient. Eyes to see, ears to hear. Lord, what would you have me to do today? Help me to make a moment for one person today. That's it. And as I've been trying and I'm telling, I can't express enough because my enneagram is a three. So I cannot express enough. Are you two. Are you really a three? Okay. Okay. So we understand, like, for our personalities, everybody else won't maybe get this, but it is so hard for me to, like. Yeah. To not try to be the best at everything that I'm doing. And now I'm like. And then what's the metric by which I've been measuring the best? For me, it was always numbers. And so I'm having to really strip away all of that stuff and say, like, the outcome is always up to God. My faithfulness. That's the metric. Was I obedient when God told me to text this person? I kind of don't want to because I'm already exhausted. [00:30:06] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:30:07] Speaker B: Was I faithful to that? Because that's more important than getting up and speaking or writing another book. [00:30:12] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:30:12] Speaker B: Right. Like, who I actually am. Who are you? [00:30:15] Speaker A: That's Good. [00:30:16] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:30:17] Speaker A: We are participants in the. [00:30:19] Speaker B: Yes. But I never saw it that way, Kristin. I'm telling you until two weeks ago. Okay. So there's still so much I'm learning that God is revealing to me about my own self and my own stuff and how. Because if it's my work, I'll get in the way every single time. [00:30:33] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:30:34] Speaker A: And it'll never be good enough. It'll never be enough. [00:30:36] Speaker B: At least for me. [00:30:36] Speaker A: It'll never be enough. [00:30:37] Speaker B: Yes. [00:30:37] Speaker A: So I have no satisfaction in it. I will not find joy in it. Everything that I used to love will become a task. Ask me how I know. [00:30:45] Speaker B: Like. [00:30:46] Speaker C: Yes. Yeah. Yes. [00:30:49] Speaker A: I'm gonna put a post it. I'm gonna just like you are a participant and just posted that right to my computer. [00:30:54] Speaker B: Yes. It's been. Well, I'm only two weeks in, so I'm no graduate, but for the last two weeks I've just been repeating it to myself over and over. You're gonna go do this. And did you feel obedient? Okay, let me say this too, because this was very helpful for me as somebody. That achievement is very important. Right. I have had to learn to navigate failure. That's kind of the point of what if I'm wrong? Like learning to accept failure. All these things. Okay. For those of us that love ministry, Jesus, okay. Only has a three year ministry, about three and a half years. That's what most scholars believe. Okay. So you would think that if you're God on earth and you've got three and a half years, you would think that you are only going to stop in the towns and meet with the people in which you are going to be extremely effective and fruitful. Except that's not what scripture says. Jesus, God will enter towns in which he won't be able to do a single miracle. Now, if I'm God, I'm not ever going to do that. I would skip this, Skip this. I'm going to just hit the applause and the uproar and the change and the transformation. This was. This is life changing for me as somebody that has to achieve to realize for God, it's not the outcome, it's the obedience to the work, regardless of whether or not people receive it. It's showing up and being faithful to where God telling me to go on that day. What is in your hand today? That's it. Oh, my goodness. This has been. Jesus says the kingdom of heaven is like a farmer who scatters seed on rocks. I live in Texas, you don't. [00:32:29] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [00:32:30] Speaker B: You don't scatter seed on rock. You wouldn't. No farmer, no farmer would do that. The kingdom of heaven is like a farmer who. Because it's not about the outcome, it's about faithfulness to the work. That's really good. [00:32:43] Speaker A: That's really good. [00:32:44] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:32:44] Speaker A: It's not a waste of time. If we are doing what he says, what God has put before us. [00:32:48] Speaker B: Yeah, friend. Even if. So whoever's listening, if you have a podcast and there's 10 downloads, if he told you to do it, that's why you're doing it. It's not about the numbers. And I'm telling you, this is what it is to be in the upside down kingdom. It's never going to feel right. Like, at least for me, I Maybe, maybe at 60, I hope. I keep saying to God, like, let me get to a point where it just is like natural. Right? But for me it's like always a resistance inside. I'm internally battling. Like, am I, am I, am I supposed to really want, like, I'm going to be faithful to, to fail? [00:33:20] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:33:20] Speaker B: That's not my personality. We're supposed to win. Right. [00:33:24] Speaker A: Well, and then the other side of that too is when I do fail, what's my response? Yeah, like there's, it's a whole two part thing. Like number one, can I accept the failure, which is step one, but then what do I do with it? Am I responding in a godly way? Am I Christlike in my acceptance of my failure and what I do next? Or do I just like walk around like griping about it? Yeah, because that, I think also is not really the point. [00:33:52] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I had this moment and this is only because of like all the internal work that I've been doing. I was supposed to go to this interview last week and it was my first television interview for this book. And so I was super excited about it. And then I sat on the tarmac for five hours. [00:34:08] Speaker A: I saw that. [00:34:09] Speaker B: Let me. Okay, let me tell you this story. This is a truly a God story. Okay? So I'm sitting on the tarmac for five hours and this is true. This is a very embarrassing thing to say out loud, but I'm just going to tell people the reality of my own thoughts and so people know it's not just them. I'm sitting on the tarmac and I say to the Lord, just kind of in my head, I didn't even mean to say it, you guys. It wasn't an intentional thing. I just go, this is my life. Like that I am, I think I'M going somewhere. I think I'm on this plane to go to this big interview, and I just sit on the tarmac, and it's another. Almost like, God, like, this is my life, okay? So while I'm on that plane, there's a flight attendant who was super kind, and, you know, we're on their five hours, people are getting antsy. And she gets on the speaker and she says, just. She just says, hey, guys, I want you to know, like, I'm so sorry that this is happening. And I know you guys have important job interviews or weddings or meetings with family. Like, I get it. This is so disruptive. And where you were supposed to be today is important. And I just want you to know I'm sorry, okay? And so I thought, okay, out of all this negativity. The flight got canceled, by the way. So I'm walking back to my car, and I'm like, okay, what am I grateful for? What did I see? And I remembered the flight attendant. So I threw off a little tweet. It's not Twitter. It's threads now. So I threw off a thread, just saying, like, oh, this flight attendant was such a blessing. And in the midst of. I told people what she said. Okay, this little thing goes viral. When I woke up the next morning, I had no idea. I wake up, it goes viral. Long story short, the flight attendant sent me a message because she saw it, okay? So she sees it. I guess American Airlines, like, posted it and something for their crew. So she. Because I had said it was an American flight, she sees it. She contacts me. She's like, I was your flight attendant. Blah, blah, blah. I just want to thank you because it always feels like, you know, does anybody care about my job? Like, does anybody care that I'm here? And your messages reminded me this matters. Like, how I treat people matters. Blah, blah, blah. Okay? I go into my fridge to make an egg salad sandwich. Right after that interaction, I'm like, oh, that's nice. And I felt like the Holy Spirit dropped this thought in my head. That's your life. Not sitting on the tarmac saying almost. It's that even on the tarmac, in an almost, you're seeing other people and you're celebrating them and you're bringing right joy to them. That's your life, Heather. That's why you're here. Despite whatever you may be going through, you're seeing other people, and that's who you are. And I just had this moment where I was like, wow, like, despite circumstances, whatever. [00:36:31] Speaker A: Like. [00:36:31] Speaker B: And I know it Sounds so stupid. Like a thread. But, like, I. I don't. For her, it seemed like it really mattered. [00:36:37] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. [00:36:39] Speaker A: You know, I think when we are willing and we have gotten to the place where, like, you know, like Paul, like, the scales have fallen off of our eyes and we are able to see God in every single mundane. [00:36:51] Speaker B: Yes. [00:36:52] Speaker A: Unexpected place. Nothing is too small and nothing is stupid and nothing is silly. And I think there's a difference between spiritualizing everything. Like, I sneeze because I have allergies, not because the devil's attacking me. [00:37:06] Speaker B: Do you know what I'm saying? Yes. But at the same time. But at the same time that God. [00:37:11] Speaker A: Can speak to us through everything, that's my experience. [00:37:15] Speaker B: This is what I tell people. I will just tell you what I have seen. [00:37:17] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:37:18] Speaker B: I'm gonna tell you what I've seen. You don't have to believe me. I don't care. I am just going to tell you what I have seen. So sometimes, yes, I get. For some people, it seems like I may be over spiritualizing. I've warned Kristen about this before I got on the call. I know that people are like, wow. Like, is everything a God thing for you? I just. I don't know. But also my brain is primed because I start my day with God, I end my day with God. Like, yes, I am looking. I think the more God is in you, the more you can't help but see God everywhere else. [00:37:43] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:37:44] Speaker A: Come on. That's good. That's good. And it's the difference between. You told the story. You basically told the story from two perspectives. So it's a difference between am I going to look down to what's wrong, or am I going to look up and see where God is in this and that? [00:38:00] Speaker B: Even if it's wrong? Even if it's wrong. Lord, thank you for this opportunity to trust you when everything's going wrong. Like, I literally think these things now. [00:38:10] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:38:10] Speaker B: Lord, I am so frustrated. But thank you for the opportunity to trust you in this great uncertainty. I don't know why this happened, but this is an opportunity for me to trust you. I mean, living this way is. I can tell you I am. I have the more peace than I've ever had in my entire life. [00:38:28] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:38:29] Speaker B: I wouldn't trade it for anything. [00:38:30] Speaker A: What's the problem with erring on the side of believing that God is in it? [00:38:34] Speaker B: Like, people don't like it, though. Why. But so are you. What's your personality, though? Because we're both threes. So are you, like, kind of extreme. Like, if I love something I love. [00:38:47] Speaker A: Yes. I'm very extra and all the way. [00:38:49] Speaker B: Me too. [00:38:50] Speaker A: I exaggerate as, like, I'm just speaking, like, normal. Like, I had guys, I need 57,000 cups of coffee today. Yeah, I just mean that, like, I'm saying an actual number that's real and makes sense. [00:39:03] Speaker B: So for our personalities, I think it's like, well, what's wrong with living in this, like, supernatural, creepy, Christian, crazy space of God is for me, that's true. I get, like, for other people. I. Because I was telling Chris before we started, my husband will say to me sometimes, like, can you just. Can we just talk crap about somebody for a second? Like, can we just. And I'm like, yeah, but I don't want to put those words out there. And energy and I don't want to, you know, we reap what we sow. He's like, no, I just want to talk crap right now. Like, let's just. And I'm like, I can't. Right. So I don't know how I became this person, because I was not. I'm just telling you, this is like a transformation. Because if you knew me in middle school, totally. I was expelled from my middle school. Like, I was a totally different person. I've always loved God, but I was like, you know, I definitely didn't understand that God was connected to other people. [00:39:51] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:39:51] Speaker B: And the more I've met God, like, he's just actually. I get it. About taking out your heart of flesh or kicking out your heart of stone and giving you a heart of flesh. I know that process. I've experienced it. [00:40:01] Speaker A: Yeah, well, you're holier than me because I'll still talk crap about people. [00:40:06] Speaker B: I just. And it's not like. It's not that it doesn't come to my mind. [00:40:10] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:40:10] Speaker B: No, it's that I am very careful with what I say because I'm. I'm very weird about energy, like, and. And creative energy of words. Right. Like, I think I just want to be very careful with what I say because I don't know how that works in Kingdom spiritual economics. So I'm like, let me just. Let me just bless or just not say anything at all. Yeah, I'll. I still, you know, I. You know, I watch Love is Blind, so, like, I still have things that I need to work through, but. Yeah, well. [00:40:37] Speaker A: And I think too, part of having our eyes open to seeing God is having our eyes open to see God in other people. The whole concept of Imago Day, and that really does shift a lot. I girl, I used to be the angriest person and I have let go of a lot of that because once I started to see God in people, I don't necessarily need to understand where they're coming from, but I understand that there is something that I don't know. I understand that God's spirit is in them. It gives me more patience, more compassion, more empathy, more all of the things. Not because I need to understand it, not because it makes my life easier, but because I'm like, okay, you are God's child, just like I am God's child. [00:41:21] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:41:22] Speaker A: And maybe you're making choices that I wish you were making differently right now. But like that does not change how God loves you. And so that does not change, should not change how I love you and how I see you and. But it takes some time and some therapy. [00:41:34] Speaker B: Do you know where I'm not good at it is online. [00:41:36] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:41:36] Speaker B: And I, I recognize that. Right. Be self aware online. If I just see the posts, it's very easy for me to be like, oh, like this is the world is horrible. People are evil every. But then the Lord reminds me you like when I'm in real community with people, when I'm serving, I go to so many different churches and I just am not meeting these evil people. I'm just, that's the truth. I'm not. [00:41:57] Speaker A: Right. [00:41:58] Speaker B: I keep me even I spend so much time in airports, I keep meeting great kind people. Of course there's some stinkers. Right. But it's so they're, they're, they actually seem like the minority in my real day, everyday life. [00:42:12] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:42:13] Speaker A: Well, and God always reminds me too, like I had this phrase like for the one. And there's a Jen Johnson song for the one that has stuck with me since the first time I heard it. But that for social media for a long time because I was God. If you, if you put this in me and you gave me the words and you want me to do all these things, why do I have 11 people that listen? Like who cares why, girl? And so for a long time God was like, okay, if, if this post, if this episode, if whatever it is reaches one person, if one person says that they see me or hear me through this, that is what it's about. And that's what I have to remind myself now too on social media when there are more than 11 people. [00:42:52] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:42:53] Speaker A: Like it's not the loud and hateful ones that I'm doing it for. So I don't actually have to respond I can just, yeah, let them be and focus on the one that's Dming me. Like, hey, can you help me understand this more? Because my whole life I've believed this or I thought this about God, and now you're helping me to see him in a different way. Can you help me with that? I'm like, you're the one I'm going to give my energy to and my time and my attention. [00:43:18] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:43:19] Speaker B: I think in kingdom economics, you cannot look at the numbers, truly. And if that's true, again, Jesus's ministry is a failure. And for some reason we don't see it that way. We just read and Jesus had a crowd and then they left. [00:43:34] Speaker A: Right. [00:43:35] Speaker B: The crowd leaves. Yeah. [00:43:37] Speaker A: They tried to push him off a cliff. [00:43:38] Speaker B: Exactly. It's like most, most Christian leaders today. Truthfully. Truthfully couldn't do a fraction of what Jesus and the disciples did because we are unwilling to not be applauded. And so I think it is actually a great gift of the Spirit to leave us in spaces where there are two people who are listening. Because we are developing the ethic of showing up for two people. You do not want to be somebody that shows up for a crowd. Anybody would also, by the way, that's not character, that's not integrity, that's not anointing, and that's not a calling. Everybody gets on stage. Everybody turns on a microphone for a hundred thousand people. It would be dumb not to. [00:44:16] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:44:17] Speaker B: Only anointed people turn on the microphone for two. Come on. [00:44:21] Speaker A: That's good. [00:44:21] Speaker B: That's the truth in heaven. And I mean, look at so many of our churches today. It's like, come on. Clearly it's, it's, it's still the narrow road. And I think Christians, we have to accept this. It's going to be a narrow road. It is. This is not like. Anyway, I don't want to get political, but it is not a right left thing. This is actually like. This is a kingdom thing. And both sides are not going to get you. I promise you, if you're actually living this thing out. Yep. They won't. [00:44:49] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. [00:44:50] Speaker B: They're gonna walk away and they're gonna leave. They may clap you for one reel, babe. [00:44:54] Speaker C: Yep. [00:44:55] Speaker B: But keep posting. Yeah. [00:44:56] Speaker A: Wait till the next one when they disagree. [00:44:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:59] Speaker A: So we have to learn turning into a different emoji. [00:45:02] Speaker B: Yes. You have to learn how to. So I think it is God's mercy to let us sit in spaces that are small for a very long time. Because when the numbers come, you cannot be defined by the Number. You have to know who you are. You will figure out who you are when there's only 10 people. [00:45:18] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:45:18] Speaker A: That's a beautiful shift. Yeah, that's really good. Well, Heather, throughout the book, you want people to ask themselves the question, what if I'm wrong? That's the title of the book, right. What if I'm wrong? What if I'm wrong? What should they be asking themselves that question about? Like, what if I'm wrong about what? [00:45:36] Speaker B: So for me, it was how I'm seeing this situation, how I'm seeing my life. What if I'm wrong about how I'm seeing God? I, I just think it is very healthy. I mean, the brain actually works like you learn how to ride a bike by learning how not to. That's how the brain works. Right. Like you. Oh, not this way. And then it makes a little path in your brain that says, don't do that again. So then you get on again and you try again and then you fall and your brain goes, not that way. Right, That's. And then eventually you're riding a bike because there's. You've learned all the different ways not to. [00:46:06] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:46:06] Speaker B: I think it's interesting that often in Christianity, like, it's just so marked by our certainty. Yeah, right. We are just so right. And I, I. Sometimes it really fascinates me, like how people are so certain of how right they are. I mean, anyway, this is a whole conversation, but like, no, I want Jesus was really okay. If Jesus was really concerned about us getting everything right, he probably would have written something down or come. [00:46:38] Speaker A: Right. [00:46:38] Speaker B: Or come at a time when there's video camera if it was very important. You're saying God of the universe couldn't have orchestrated to be there where there's to everybody's taking notes and there's pictures and there. Or he would have just sitting and written something down. In Scripture. Right. Jesus is asked 183 questions, of which he only directly answers. 3. [00:46:59] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:47:00] Speaker B: For Jesus, apparently the communication pattern for me as a communication person that I see is that he's not super concerned about the answer. [00:47:09] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:47:09] Speaker B: And what do we. Jesus asks. Oh, it's over 300 questions. So the majority of his time is spent not giving answers but asking questions. Because in communication, we know questions build relationship. I just don't. I think there's a lot of how we look at God that's wrong. And if we're not opening up ourselves to really like even say, what could I be getting wrong? Lord God, help me to see you more clearly. Reveal to me what I could be getting wrong. Most of us don't even pray that prayer. [00:47:39] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. [00:47:40] Speaker B: But we need to be. [00:47:41] Speaker A: Yes. [00:47:42] Speaker B: We need to be living this thing out in mystery and uncertainty. And, like, I don't know. I'm gonna. What does the scripture say? Like, work out your salvation in fear and trembling. Nobody's trembling. We are, like, yelling at people online in all caps because we are so sure that you're wrong. And there's, like, several thousand, thousands of denominations. Like, it just actually blows my mind how certain we are. [00:48:07] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:48:08] Speaker B: About a lot of things when it comes to theology. [00:48:10] Speaker A: Well, the fear that is around that question. Right. Of asking God, will you show me where I'm wrong? Is there's fear there. But it's the fear of the wrong thing. It's the fear of, like, well, I'm not going to be a good Christian anymore because I have built my entire faith and spirituality and my Persona and my Christianity on being right. And so if God shows me now that I'm wrong about something, what does that say about who I am as a Christian? Like, we can't give ourselves the gold stars anymore. [00:48:42] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:48:42] Speaker A: When we let God say, like, hey, that's not what you're supposed to be getting gold stars for to begin with. Like, when we take that away and that's been our religion or our faith, then we're like, well, what do we have? And there is so much more. But taking that first step and asking that first question can be so hard. [00:49:00] Speaker B: I think we should be building our religion around what we have seen and what we have heard. [00:49:04] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:49:04] Speaker B: And that. That goes back to. I think we are called to be witnesses and that's it. [00:49:08] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. [00:49:09] Speaker A: What would you say to somebody who right now is asking that question about their faith if they're saying, like, okay, because I don't know if you know this, Heather, but we're in a weird Christianity era right now. There's a lot of definitions of what it means to be a Christian and the right kind of Christian and whatever. So if somebody's listening and they're like, okay, but what if I am wrong about my faith? And what if I am wrong about everything that I've believed about who God is or what the church is about or any of that, what would you encourage them to do with that question? [00:49:40] Speaker B: Okay. I would say so again, this is my communication training. But the word Christian, what does it mean? Christian means little Christ. Right. They were first in it, by the way. It wasn't something that they called themselves. It's what people started to call them after watching in the Greco Roman system of hierarchy, at the very top, you have the gods and the demigods, and then you have the kings and the rulers, and then you have the really, really wealthy people, and then you have the people who own slaves. And at the very bottom of the pyramid, you have slaves, immigrants and foreigners and the poor. And in these places that they called churches, which was just actually people's homes, all of a sudden the neighbors would watch. As I'm telling you, this is totally antithetical to the. To their system of hierarchy. They would watch as slaves and immigrants and foreigners would sit down and worship a crucified. By the way, it's a method of Roman execution only reserved for slaves, immigrants, foreigners, and the poor. Jesus's enthronement is to go to the bottom of the pyramid of hierarchy, essentially upended, right? And so people would watch them going into these houses, all these people of different status worshiping their crucified Savior. And they'd say, huh, look at those little Christs. How strange. [00:51:00] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:51:01] Speaker B: So I would say, if somebody's wrestling with being a Christian, a also Israel, it just means to wrestle. So stay in the wrestle. [00:51:08] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:51:08] Speaker B: You're being a good Christian, right? And then are you. [00:51:11] Speaker A: What. [00:51:11] Speaker B: What about your life is looking like a little Christ? How are you upending hierarchy in your life? That's it. [00:51:18] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:51:19] Speaker B: Seeing people as equals is the most little Christ thing that we can do. [00:51:25] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:51:26] Speaker A: So good. And I would encourage anybody that's listening who is genuinely in that space. And I know a lot of you are, because you DM me on Instagram and we already chat about it. Pull out a pen and a journal and write these questions down and actually, like, sit with them. This is something that you can take to God. It can. You can do it now, you can do it tomorrow morning. You can do it, like, think on it. But I would say actually, like, let these questions, you know, tumble around in your mind, but then actually write down the answers. Because I think that is revelatory also. And that's where I think Holy Spirit can also show you, hey, maybe this is what you think, or this is what you think you think. But then, I don't know. That happens to me when I'm writing. I go to write one thing, and next thing I know, I'm writing something else and I'm like, like, huh, I didn't know I thought that way. Or maybe God just, like, helped me to see this in a different way. And actually answering those questions makes A huge difference. [00:52:19] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. [00:52:20] Speaker B: And just saying, lord, help me to make a moment for someone today. I'm just telling you it won't matter. [00:52:24] Speaker A: Like, the. [00:52:25] Speaker B: The theological answers stop mattering when you're seeing God in, like, actually work in you to answer someone else's prayer. It's like, I don't care anymore what I'm wrong about. I just don't. Because I've seen it. [00:52:38] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:52:38] Speaker B: I've seen the fruit of what it looks like to spend time with the Lord. And it's like, I'm gonna bet my life on this thing, and there's a lot of other things I don't fully get, and that's okay. [00:52:48] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. [00:52:50] Speaker A: Oh, Heather, I could keep talking to you for forever. This has been so good. But the last question that I have for you that I ask everybody at the end of the episode is because the podcast is called Becoming Church. How can the people listening become the church to the people around them this week? [00:53:04] Speaker B: Oh, you are. You are. That is. That is scripture. That is. The entire point is that you are the church. You already are. Yeah, that's it. You are. Embrace who you are. Paul says, you are a living stone. You are a living letter. You are the gospel. This. So tell people what you've seen and what you've heard. That's it. Be a witness. [00:53:27] Speaker A: Well, and I would say, too, the way that we show people who God is, they're going to believe us. So, like, that's another thing to like. Like back to your question. Like, how are you a little Christ? Whatever you're telling people around you about who God is and what Christians are called to do and put here to do, like they're going to believe you. So is it actually reflective of being a little Christ? And if not, guess what? All the grace and we can change God's mercies start today. Yes, transformation. [00:53:54] Speaker B: That's right. [00:53:55] Speaker A: Well, Heather, thank you so much. This has been lovely. I'm going to link up your book and all of the things that you have to offer people, and I hope that they will come and follow you and continue to learn from you. I've just been so glad that you've been here with us today. [00:54:10] Speaker B: Thank you. My honor. [00:54:16] Speaker A: I am praying for you to bravely ask God the question, what if I'm wrong? Or what am I wrong about? And then sit with the answers that are revealed to you. Now. Don't be discouraged if you don't hear an audible voice or get like some kind of supernatural download right away. Like Heather said, we can only control our obedience and faithfulness in the Ask, and then keep our eyes and ears open for God to answer, even if it takes some time. Also, if you're intrigued about the part of our conversation on certainty, I'll just drop a little Easter egg here for you and say that you might want to follow me on social media. Hristenmochler Young because there is more about the foundations that we build our faith on and how to live in the uncertainty of the mystery of God that is coming for you over there. Until next time, thanks so much for listening and keep becoming the church to the people around you. [00:55:11] Speaker C: Sam.