Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to Becoming church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Muckler Young, and today I have a new friend on the podcast. I say new friend because Tiffany Bloom and I have followed each other on social media, actually, for a while, but we just met today for the very first time. And not that either of us was surprised, but we instantly hit it off and made plans to get together whenever we're not on opposite sides of the country. I know that you will love her, too. Tiffany's here today to tell us all about her latest project, this devotion, called the women we've been waiting for. Now, while this book is geared toward women, if you don't consider yourself a woman, I encourage you to keep listening, because much of what she says can be applied to other people, people groups as well, or, you know, in listening, you just might learn something. Here's my conversation with Tiffany.
All right, Tiffany. Welcome to becoming church.
[00:01:11] Speaker B: Oh, thanks for having me, Kristen. Yes.
[00:01:13] Speaker A: So excited. Now. We are. We were just chatting. We are in different time zones, so I know it is early, so let me really. Thank you.
[00:01:22] Speaker B: No worries. No worries.
[00:01:24] Speaker A: Really, thank you for being here. All the way from Seattle, Seattle, Washington.
[00:01:28] Speaker B: Such a pleasure.
[00:01:30] Speaker A: And real quick update, or real quick, let people know, how long have you been in Seattle? And kind of where were you before that?
[00:01:36] Speaker B: I have been in the Seattle area for 16 years. And it's one of those moments I just celebrated 15 years of marriage, where you're like, oh, life. Life goes quick. Like, you blink. And it's been 15 years. So, in fact, okay, this is way too sweet.
One of my dearest friends is a photographer. She normally does event photography, but does family photography sometimes as well. And she said, oh, I want to start shooting at the Capitol, the Washington State Capitol building. Very beautiful place. It's actually where I got married. I got married on the lawn in front of the capitol.
[00:02:09] Speaker A: Fun.
[00:02:10] Speaker B: Yes. And so we also just did our family photos there. And it's been 15 years. So I am in my feels of how long I've been in the Seattle area and how long I've been married, because I'm like, wow, time is ticking. Time's ticking. There we go.
[00:02:24] Speaker A: It is so crazy.
[00:02:25] Speaker B: Get those frownies for myself on my forehead.
[00:02:30] Speaker A: I bypassed the frownies. I went straight to both to Botox. I was like, these are not going to work for me. Just, let's just do it.
[00:02:35] Speaker B: Also, real talk. I think you have to be outrageously. Committed to the craft. I think you have to do it, like, every night without fail, those brownies, so.
[00:02:43] Speaker A: Oh, I'm sure you do. I'm sure you do. Well, listen, we are on the cusp of. Or maybe I guess, it's full on fall now. So I want to know just a couple questions for you, just as we kind of get to know you real fast. What is your favorite fall activity?
[00:03:00] Speaker B: Without any hesitation or shame in my answer, sending my kids to school. They can go to school.
That is the best part of fall.
[00:03:10] Speaker A: End of interview. There's nothing better that you can do.
[00:03:12] Speaker B: There is literally nothing better. And then maybe go grab a coffee after with a friend, go on a walk, go to brunch. The options are endless once they're in school.
[00:03:21] Speaker A: I love it. Our summer was beautiful, and it was probably one of the loveliest, easiest summers that we've had. But I am so with you. When the school year comes around, I am like, here is a coffee and a mug with your name on it. Please take care of them because they are yours.
[00:03:35] Speaker B: Go with God. Go with God.
[00:03:39] Speaker A: All right, Tiffany, what is your favorite brain snack? Like, if you're working or you gotta do Stephanie, you just need a snack. What are you grabbing?
[00:03:46] Speaker B: I. I'm. I love hummus. And I know that sounds so silly, but it's like, hey, girl, two tablespoons is a serving. Like, watch it. Okay. Like, I can chow down on some hummus. It's my jam.
[00:03:59] Speaker A: Hummus is amazing. And I stopped measuring out a long time ago. Once I started dipping Doritos into it, I was like, you know what? The amount of hummus is really the issue here, like, at all, actually.
[00:04:10] Speaker B: That is funny. Doritos and hummus. You know what? I feel like the mediterranean people would be so proud of you. So well done.
[00:04:17] Speaker A: Yes. Hey, don't knock until you try it.
[00:04:20] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:04:21] Speaker A: All right. What is your favorite apparel or accessory that you won't let go of even if it's not in style anymore?
[00:04:27] Speaker B: Okay. When I answer this, I need you to know that I actually don't care. Like you said, even if it's out of style. I really committed to my answer here. I don't enjoy carrying a purse. I have a bit of a bad back, so I don't like anything that's going to offset my shoulders. So I am the queen of the case. With your cards in the back?
[00:04:50] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:04:52] Speaker B: I don't care if that goes out of style, because I'm going to be. I just carry that, basically. And my car key.
[00:04:57] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:04:58] Speaker B: I also don't love act like I don't have purses.
[00:05:01] Speaker A: I also don't love a purse. And I have to have a backpack. I feel like I need a backpack for work. So I'm like, I don't need both.
You don't need laptop and everything else. My planner doesn't fit in a purse. I don't need a backpack. Yennefer. It's too much, right?
[00:05:15] Speaker B: It's a lot.
[00:05:17] Speaker A: All right. Because you are a writer. What is a good book that you've read lately?
[00:05:22] Speaker B: Oh, testimony by John Ward. It was equal parts engaging, inspiring, convicting. He talks about his evangelical upbringing. He's a journalist, and how his understanding of the world was so slim and kind of looking through a straw in reality of what adulthood would be like and what he thought the emphasis on life was. And so it just is. I highly recommend it for anyone who grew up evangelical to just have time to process. And he's not angry. He's not. He doesn't use the words deconstructing or anything like that. It's just a fascinating insight into nineties culture with such a journalistic eye. And I cannot get over it. I cannot stop recommending it. Enough.
[00:06:12] Speaker A: Okay. I'm reading. I wrote it down. I'm gonna put it on my list, like, so good.
All right. What's something that makes you feel strong?
[00:06:21] Speaker B: Ooh.
Enough sleep.
[00:06:26] Speaker A: Good one.
Apologies again for the early morning interview. No worries. No worries.
[00:06:32] Speaker B: No worries.
[00:06:34] Speaker A: Okay. What's something that hypes you up?
[00:06:37] Speaker B: Enough sleep. I can take on the world if you know what, actually something that hypes me up. I'm being so practical, which is hilarious. When I wrote a book about self care.
Magnesium, girl, don't act like we are midlife and we need that magnesium in Ashwagandha. So what hypes me up? Taking my vitamins so I can. Everything is figureoutable when I've taken my vitamins because the sky is falling if I haven't. Yeah, that is what hypes me up, truly.
[00:07:02] Speaker A: My, my nighttime vitamins are working. They're happening for me because I'm in that routine. My morning vitamins, I literally just yesterday ordered a thing on Amazon that has, like, a hook on it so I can hook it right to my backpack because I don't think about it until I'm already out of the house every single day. So I'm like, maybe this will be the game changer.
[00:07:23] Speaker B: We're going to get you those, like, from Rite Aid. We're going to get you one of those, like, Sunday through Sunday, pill popper.
[00:07:28] Speaker A: That is kind of what it is.
[00:07:29] Speaker B: But it's a keychain on a keychain. You know what? There was an audience for that, and it's you. So I love that it's pink.
[00:07:39] Speaker A: And they got me. Like, they got me, Tiffany. I just did.
All right, because you used to be a pastor, what's your favorite thing about the church?
[00:07:50] Speaker B: The people who are willing to do the work, the parishioners and the congregants who come with humble hands and humble hearts. And when we put that emphasis on ordinary faithfulness rather than global domination.
[00:08:09] Speaker A: Yeah.
Like, you know, faith over power type thing.
[00:08:13] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:08:15] Speaker A: Living out the love of Jesus.
[00:08:16] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, come on.
[00:08:18] Speaker A: Well, that's good. That's good. Hopefully, that gives our listeners just a little picture into who you are as a person. But your. I think it was on your website, it says that you serve at the intersection of faith and culture, which I am all about. But what does that look like for you?
[00:08:33] Speaker B: Yeah, well, when you think of the greco roman influence of the first century, when the church was just getting its legs, and you see how what was happening in that, in that first century time and culture permeated church ways, and this is why we have faulty beliefs about women. This is why we have very unique beliefs about hierarchy and patriarchy. My passion to see these not at odds, but see how the gospel can permeate culture, and also how there's parts of culture that for a lot of us, as people of color, they are not at odds with the gospel. And so many of us have been asked to lay that down in order to accept western gospel views. And in reality, there's a nuance there. And those can live in tension and those can live in harmony. Dare I say so? I want to bring this I and be a mouthpiece and voice for what does this intersection of faith, culture, and specifically women's issues, how can we look at these in this moment in a way that honors women, in a way that redeems culture, in a way that points to the Lord?
[00:09:42] Speaker A: What would you say to somebody who says that, you know, sometimes pop culture is like a cuss word, like in religious circles, so let's just say somebody is listening and they're like, no. Like, we, the church, we are supposed to live set apart. We are not supposed to intersect these things. What would you say to that frame of mind?
[00:10:04] Speaker B: What a fabulous question. Last night during family devotions, I told my children, I so wish that my understanding of the gospel as a child, as a middle schooler as a high schooler would have been more than just evangelizing my friends. That was all mindstream. This is what makes the world whole. Rather than racial justice, equality between the sexes, and environmental justice and all these other things, class justice. None of that was part of the gospel story for me, the idea of pursuing wholeness in every part of you and communal healing and communal renewal. And so when I hear that we are set apart, how are we going to contribute to communal renewal if we are not rolling up our sleeves? If we are, you know, set apart? No, no earthly, so heavenly minded. No earthly good. I think we really, we really miss it. We really miss how sweet the fruit of the spirit is to the taste of others when we are so focused on being set apart. And I think christian subculture, this is where it gets scary with, I'm going to say it, kristen, don't, don't be mad, girl. Don't come for me.
[00:11:12] Speaker A: I won't promise.
[00:11:13] Speaker B: Worship, music culture, and even just this, like, insular youth group culture where it's heavy on the emotionalism, I'm like, this is what folks are talking about that gets so insider language. And so if you know, you know, that's not the gospel. If you know, you. No, no. This is so many open doors. So many open doors from the front to the side to the back where people can engage and we can go out those doors and engage.
[00:11:41] Speaker A: Yeah, it's like the church has turned so far inward. Like, first we just turned inward to christians and it was like, you know, just to our denominations, and then it was just to our church community. And then it's, I think for a lot of people, like, no, just me and myself and the Holy Spirit, which is like, yeah, you can have that relationship, but you're not at all living out the fullness of what the gospel actually says because like you said, this is not, this is not a individual sport.
[00:12:06] Speaker B: This is not an, this is not the 100 meters, you know what I'm saying? Like, this is, it's a group. It's a group project. It's a group effort.
Yeah.
[00:12:19] Speaker A: So you, we're going to talk about the book that you put out in just a second, your, your newest book. But I know when you've had previous ones, too, you have always seemingly had this heart for women or champion championing.
I like to call them misfits. But, like, the overlooked and unseen people, what fostered your heart into thinking, like, this way about other people?
Yeah.
[00:12:46] Speaker B: Well, for those are those who are listening, I'm brown, and I've never been part of the majority. I have no idea what that feels like. So, this is my point of view. The idea of the misfirter, why I would be called to that, it's because I don't have another pair of glasses to wear. I know there's a billion Indians, but not where I live, not where I'm from.
Growing up, I never had the privilege of the insider white evangelical experience, although that was my upbringing. And so it's very much on the outside looking in. But I played by all the rules. Kristin. I lettered in youth group, didn't have sex till I got married.
[00:13:27] Speaker A: Oh, yeah.
[00:13:28] Speaker B: Followed every rule the church had for me. I'm like, oh, game on. Now, here's the thing. I had such chaos at home that these rules became liberation for me. These rules gave me guardrails, and they gave me walls and a floor and a ceiling. So it gave me some structure that I deeply craved. But I'm also a type a rule follower. So it wasn't that. It wasn't that much of a stretch or that much of an ask, but being where I'm at now and so badly, wanting every woman to find herself in her own story and in the gospel story, it. It's always been my point of view, and I think I. You know, when you're abandoned at birth and wondering if the good news is for you, too, girls who were left for dead and you find out it is, you'll give your whole life to make sure everyone else knows.
[00:14:20] Speaker A: Oh, I love that. That's so beautiful. And I would just say thank you, and I think this is special. I don't think that it can be an assumed thing that everyone would take the path that you took to champion other people, to champion other women. I think sometimes. Sometimes when life is hard, it just makes people hard, you know, or they want to make life hard for other people. So I just. I see Jesus in you, and I just really applaud all that you're doing. So thank you. Good on you. Is this what? And again, we will get to the book in a second, but you created resistorhood. Is this kind of born out of the same idea? And also, please tell me you're doing this again, because I didn't know about it until it was too late. And now I'm like, I really want to be part of this.
[00:15:05] Speaker B: Oh, man. The resistor head. So, it's the intersection of women's liberation and spiritual formation now in church culture, women's liberation in, dare I say, the f word of feminism has been a really contested. I know. Really contested word. So I was like, women's liberation. We can go there.
And I am so deeply taken by women's movements, which we'll get to in a second with the book and so many of the greatest movements in human history. When you trace back the roots, Kristin, it's like a handful of women who've been behind it, who've really been pushing for so many of the laws and rules that we exist and engage in in modern day because of women. And so that was kind of the thinking behind it. And then every month in the resistor, it's a virtual cohort, which we end with a in person getaway. The last one was in Miami. We were really suffering for Christ. But we have someone. Someone each month. We had a professor in communications whose specialty is in women's movements, come and speak. We have had spiritual formation professors. We have had therapists come in. So it is just to come in and speak and really stretch our understanding. It's definitely very stretching for what you believe and where you're going and how we can find the true intersection of everything we talked about, faith, culture, and women's issues, and it has been one of my greatest joys in the past few years. So, verdicts out if we're gonna. We're gonna keep going, but we're. It's been a really, really sweet run.
[00:16:39] Speaker A: Awesome. Awesome. Well, I. If there's one thing that frustrates me about a program that I signed up for, it's when I feel like it was so watered down or like, I don't leave changed. So I'm really glad to hear that. You said, like, it was stretchy. Like, that's what it should be, right? Isn't that what we should all be striving for?
[00:16:56] Speaker B: Like, come on.
[00:16:57] Speaker A: Challenging what we think and thinking about why we believe what we believe, and especially when we hold it up to the light of the gospel, so.
[00:17:04] Speaker B: Amen.
[00:17:06] Speaker A: Well, you wrote a book. I've got it right here called the women we've been waiting for. And it says it's a 40 day devotional for self care, resilience, and communal flourishing. And one of the things that's different about this is it is a collab. You've got other women in here. How did you decide to go that route?
[00:17:27] Speaker B: Well, I was. I will say this is the book I've been wanting to write every time I sat down to write my other books.
[00:17:35] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:17:35] Speaker B: This is the 6th title I've released, and when I think of what everything has been moving toward. It's this. It is this title. And when I was thinking of, like, I just wanted to so many other people to speak into this experience as a woman is sitting down to commune with the divine, there were so many voices that have blessed me. There's so many voices that have challenged me to not bend to the wills of whiteness, to really wrestle with who God is and his activity with humanity. And so those are the women I invited to contribute. They're all liturgists or minority voices.
I'm excited because I really had to invite my publisher to go there, because it's not, you know, normally when you hear, when you see a contributor based piece, it is. Every single entry or essay is by a contributor. And I was inviting them to consider, well, what if every fourth essay was by a computer? Not every single one. So I'll still take on the bulk of the writing and the bulk of the marketing, but then I can invite others to speak into it and also make space for, you know, some. Some of these are pretty well established women in, in the faith and justice world. Some of them are up and coming. So it was this beautiful way to invite the squad. And like we said, team sport, right? So I was, yeah, I was over the moon when they were like, okay, let's do it, and, and let's. Let's make it happen, and let's give them their shine as well, and give them a chance to flex. And so I am just, I'm tickled pink. And the, the reason I wanted to write this now, did I know it was going to come out 45 days before the election and this is such an intense time, or that it would be a 40 day devotional? I'm like, okay, lord, I trust you with the timing on that, but I'm so intrigued with the idea of self care for social change and self care for communal flourishing, and how this invitation to love others as ourselves assumes and implies that we love ourselves. And it assumes and implies that we have an imagination for how we would embody our space, community, and society. And so I really kind of zero in on that, of what does it look like from biblical history and modern history to have an imagination for a woman to exist in her space, whether she's a minority, whether she has disabilities? And how is Sheddeh co creating, along with the divine, a beautiful place and space, as well as learning from women who aren't of the christian faith? But there are a lot of spiritual implications and practices we can learn.
[00:20:22] Speaker A: I want to break in with a quick pause right here to let you know that you can find Tiffany's book and so many more on our becoming a church book list on Amazon. It's linked in the show notes, and it stays updated with all, all of our published guests. So you can find your next read all there in the same place. If you're really paying attention. There's even some secrets revealed in there when books get added. Before that author's episode is published, I legally need to tell you that your purchase through our Amazon link will give us about, I don't know, like, $0.03 in affiliation kickback. But bonus, you can just consider that an offering to mosaic with a book purchase. Now here's the rest of my conversation with Tiffany.
Well, the first thing that, besides flipping through, and I was like, oh, I have friends in here. Like, that was super fun. I was like, I know, I know. Multiple of these women, which I loved, but also even just reading, I guess it was the introduction you talk about. And then I saw, as I. As I read through that you have, when I think devotion, I think, like, fluffy. Okay, I'm just being honest with you, especially because it says self care. I was like, this is probably not for me, but she's cute, and we'll do this anyway. Okay, fine. And then I got it, and I was like, oh, this? I'm 100% gonna do every single page in this book. Because you say in the introduction that there are stories of rage, frustration, loss, and, like, the audacity of them sharing their actual lived lives.
[00:21:51] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:52] Speaker A: And so, Tiffany, I just have to know, in a very highly filtered world where people like to only really put, you know, their best and prettiest forward, have you gotten pushback for making a self care devotion that is so raw and real?
[00:22:07] Speaker B: Not yet.
[00:22:08] Speaker A: Verdicts. Okay, great.
[00:22:10] Speaker B: Verdicts out. Not yet. And I I will say I feel like I was really good about creating definitions around self care, resilience, and communal flourishing at the go so there could be a shared understanding and vernacular. Self care is not a purchase. It is not the trillion dollar industry that we would, you know, when we're at Sephora, bath and body works or, you know, getting a massage. Self care is caring for yourself in a world that does not.
And so when you think of the mothers from the black panther movement and you think of Mary and Elizabeth and you think of Zelophehad's daughters in the Old Testament in the wilderness, that is self care. It is caring for yourself in a world that does not and will not having a holy imagination for what could be holy.
[00:22:58] Speaker A: Imagination is my favorite thing in the whole entire world.
[00:23:01] Speaker B: Is it?
[00:23:01] Speaker A: Oh, it really is. It is my favorite thing. Which, again, like, talking about, why did we not get this growing up? I'm like, why did we not get this? Why were we not encouraged to read between the lines when the Bible skips, like, massive amounts of time or you don't hear both sides of a conversation, or I side note, this is why I'm obsessed with the chosen. I don't know if you watch it.
[00:23:24] Speaker B: My kids do you watch the chosen? My kids watch it and really, really enjoy it.
[00:23:29] Speaker A: It's my favorite thing because they, I think they do holy imagination so well. So well. All right, so you gave us a little definition of what self care is for you and for the book. What about let's do the other two as well? How would you explain resilience?
[00:23:44] Speaker B: Yeah. So here's what I love about the women that we feature, because every of every essay of the 40 days of the entries is all a different woman or group of women in history. And we did not try to do any women that you would already know, except, you know, women in, in scripture. There's going to be some names you recognize but really tried to go off the beaten path. So let's take Vashti. You know, we see Esther come in the story, but Vashti and Esther, we put these women at odds. And so when you think of resilience, when you think of standing your ground and honoring your capacity and also noting the growth of what you can handle, you think of Vashti refusing to appear before her husband, and Esther dared to. That is resilience. And we love to give Esther this main character energy, but she would not be there if Vashti hadn't played her part. So there's just this tug of war with what does resilience look like? And resilience is subjective, Kristen, it is going to look different for you than it is for me. So that's the invitation there is. Understand that resilience is going to look different for each woman, and it is not our place to judge how another woman practices her resilience unless it is hurting or harming herself or others. It really is, again, this shift to allow resilience to be a byproduct and the fruit of one's own journey and overcoming. And rather than this baseline that we all adhere to, that we all agree is a mark of maturity that was.
[00:25:18] Speaker A: Actually one of the ones that stuck out to me because I love that you had, I think the prayer at the end or something is like God of Esther and God of Queen Vashti or whatever, but I loved that you had not put them at odds against each other, because I think, too, we think sometimes resilience means we push everybody else down.
[00:25:35] Speaker B: Right?
[00:25:35] Speaker A: Like, we're resilient because we're the last one standing. Like, we're the only ones standing.
[00:25:40] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:25:40] Speaker A: And resilience doesn't actually need competition to flourish.
[00:25:44] Speaker B: No, no. And it is so beautiful. So many of the. Oh, gosh, I stink and love this. I can't wait for women to really dive into this. But when you look at the beginning versus a middle versus the end of a woman's story. Okay, resilience. We're just going to keep going on these. These interesting couplings. Vashti and Esther, Jehosabad and bithiah. Bithiah is the midrash's name for pharaoh's daughter who adopted Moses. So you have these. Both were committed to resilience. Both were partners crafting conditions of care for this young baby, this young man. They were both in agreement. We never see them in the same scene, but they both were tagged in to do their part, and they were both resilient in their own way. One defied her father's odds. She very much knew that was a hebrew baby, and one kept her baby when this joker was trying to take out all these precious babes. And so resilience looks different for each woman. And it was the audacity to care for a hebrew son. And she knew her dad would know and see and was like, come at me. What you going to do?
The other one, you know, got to nurse her son because of her daughter's bravery at the water's edge. I mean, it is just. It's incredible what women have done in history. I could. Look at me. I can't even. I can't. Girl, don't. I mean, I need to sit down. I need to sit down.
[00:27:06] Speaker A: What hypes you up is this conversation? And I'm so glad, because. Me too. Same again. In the back of my mind. And I know the answer is, like, the patriarchy, but I'm like, why didn't we even talk about them when we were growing up? We just learned about Moses, like, sister Pharaoh's daughter. We're, like, kind of in the story, but really, it was about Moses and the basket, and he grew up, and we just totally don't tell their stories, so.
[00:27:30] Speaker B: No. And I'm so excited. Can I tell you how much I grieve that when you think of the story of David and Bathsheba, we grew up thinking, oh, she deserved this. Some. Something. She. Why was she up on that rooftop? Girl, put it away. Rather than.
[00:27:42] Speaker A: Don't be naked on the.
[00:27:44] Speaker B: Rather than a victim of sexual assault. And I'm just like. I'm devastated to see that I was raised with such a male gaze in scripture.
[00:27:54] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:27:55] Speaker B: Rather than a female gay female gaze and female exegesis. It's like, come on. Come on, folks. We make a path. The world, for the love of God.
[00:28:04] Speaker A: Seriously?
Yes, seriously. All right, so at the top of the last one, define communal flourishing for us.
[00:28:11] Speaker B: Communal flourishing. The ability and desire to want for others what you want for yourself to want for others what you want for yourself to fight for others what you fight for yourself to believe for others what you believe for yourself.
[00:28:29] Speaker A: Okay, so I love this.
Now, let me. Our. The church that I get to help pastor is very diverse. We have lots of beautiful, diverse listeners. Actually, I just looked up the other day, this podcast is listened to in over 25 countries.
[00:28:44] Speaker B: I don't know how that happens. Come on, guys.
[00:28:46] Speaker A: But that's amazing.
[00:28:48] Speaker B: You brag about it. You should be so proud of that. That's right. You should mention that every week. There you go.
[00:28:53] Speaker A: Every week. It's the new tagline listen to in over 25 years.
[00:28:57] Speaker B: I love it.
[00:28:58] Speaker A: So we do have lots of diverse. I want to make sure we say that. Lots of diverse listeners. I also know that we have some.
Listen, this is not a. A bad thing, but just, everyone just stay with me for a second. I know we have lots of white women. I am a white woman, in case you did not know. We have lots of white women who grew up or maybe even still find themselves in predominantly white spaces where everyone around them is kind of the same. So talking especially about communal flourishing and that idea, why would the white woman who lives in kind of a little white bubble, why would they want to read this book?
[00:29:41] Speaker B: What a great question. And I've been thinking about this. When you emailed me, that question really spent some time in prayer, because I was like, no one's ever asked me that before about any work ever. When I would say, because we're your sisters and because this is your history, too. This isn't just minority history. This is your history, too. These are your aunties, too. These are your ammas, too. These are your nanas, too. And what an honor to partner with your global sisters. Yes, white women make up a large swath of christians in America, but they are not the global majority african woman who is 22 is the majority. And so when you.
When you pull back the lens, you might be in your circle and it feels so vanilla, for lack of a.
[00:30:39] Speaker A: Better term, or it feels just normal because that's the only life they know. I want to acknowledge that, too.
[00:30:46] Speaker B: Yeah.
There's such rich history that will bless you deeply and give you such a glorious understanding of the world and of the Lord and perspective of God's character and God's nature and how he's engaged women in completely different situations and worlds than you. Additionally, I have been well loved by white women, and I believe that white women have a unique power, not just by population, but by privilege and class. And I am excited to continue to watch you use it for good. Maybe that's not always been the case, but I believe that the collective power and agency of white women partnering with women of color is heaven on earth.
[00:31:41] Speaker A: Okay, I want to dig into that a little bit more.
So, recently, this reminds me, recently, I wrote a piece on my sub sack and put it on Instagram and whatever, but I basically said, if you're not moved enough to fight for an issue, it's probably not worth ranting about either.
[00:31:57] Speaker B: Oh, girl.
[00:31:59] Speaker A: One line that I, you know, put in there.
[00:32:01] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:32:02] Speaker A: Might have gotten a little pushback, a little, like, touched some nerves.
[00:32:06] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:32:06] Speaker A: With that one. But it really just made me think, too. Right. Like, there are times you said, we've got, as white women, specifically, we've got a unique power, we've got unique influence that we need to tap into and accept and acknowledge. But I think that sometimes women either believe they can't do anything, like they literally can't, or they don't know how, or they don't know where to start. Do you have any practical ways that you think we can do this?
[00:32:37] Speaker B: Oh, I love that. And I. Honestly, Kristen, this is why I wrote this book, is because it starts with a rich inner life. It starts with such a rich in life.
If women are telling themselves, I can't do this, I don't know how to do this, it starts.
This is very rooted in contemplative activism, this devotional, and it really starts with this understanding of who am I? What is my relationship with the divine? What is my relationship with God, and how does that influence and impact every man, woman, and child and image bearer I meet, therefore having an influence or using that place, space, and resources to make an impact. So this is exactly why I wrote this, because we'd love to believe it's this big, long list of things to do. And it's not. It is not. We mustn't overlook helping our neighbor out. We mustn't overlook the, you know, the community PTA. We mustn't overlook just what does it look like in my local community to show up for people who have different interests, needs, experiences, and struggles than I do? And how can my place in space make their life better? Not from what I believe is better for them, but what they believe is better for them, because I don't get to decide what flourishes. Say that again. Other people, we're so quick, and it's fair to say people with privilege and who are higher up on the hierarchy here would like to define what flourishing looks like for others. And flourishing, again, like, resilience, is outrageously subjective. And too many of us, we move the poll of flourishing the closer we get to it. We push it out and out and out, like, well, only if I had this, only if life looked like this. And so we could take that inside out. And rather, what does flourishing look like for me? What does flourishing look like for my sister? What does flourishing look like for my friends? What does flourishing look like for community? And what do I have that could uniquely contribute to that? So I think that is, this can look so many ways.
Art and beauty and gardening and communal care. I mean, there's just so many ways. It does not have to look like one way. It doesn't just look like marching, you know what I'm saying? Or protesting.
[00:34:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:34:48] Speaker B: That is, we'd love to be like, this is how we make a difference in the world. There's about a billion different ways. One of the. One of the stories that really was one of my first ideas for the devotional is the women, the lay women of St. Augustine's Church in Oakland. And they were asked by the Black Panthers to start serving breakfast to kiddos in the community because they were hungry when they were going to school. So they started free breakfast. And it spread throughout the country at different chapters of Black Panthers. And it was all just. It was all church ladies. It was all church ladies. Kristen getting up early to make grits and eggs and toast and oatmeal and pour that orange juice. And the FBI deemed it the greatest threat to democracy at the time.
[00:35:38] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:35:39] Speaker B: Church mamas getting up to make breakfast. So when I say that, what does communal flourishing look like? It can look like getting up to make breakfast for the kids down the street. And eventually the FBI and the government shut them down. And so these women turned to Congress and said, so what are you going to do. Are you going to feed these babies? Because we did a great job. And it's the reason we have free breakfast today. Across America, 13.1 million children are fed every year because of the mamas and the lay women of St. Augustine's Church in Oakland, California, in the late sixties.
[00:36:16] Speaker A: And there's no way they were thinking, like, we're going to do this because one day we're going to affect change in the lost, like, legal system.
[00:36:22] Speaker B: Who would? No, no. You know, it was knocking on their doors. Hey, would you come out at 530 in the morning and start stirring some oatmeal with me so we can feed these babies?
[00:36:31] Speaker A: You know, can you help me care about these kids? Right?
[00:36:34] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:36:35] Speaker A: Right.
I love, I think so much of this. Tiffany starts in our own minds, so. And I'm just really confirming and affirming why this devotion would be great for everyone to read.
Because we really can't care about other people. Until we change the way that we see other people, we really can't want to do anything. We can't have a heart for them. We can't find compassion, we can't find motivation until we start to see people differently. And that's not something that you can teach. You know, I genuinely believe that has to come from holy spirit. That's to come from the inside out. And the idea that someone else can flourish and it doesn't take away from my flourishing the idea that somebody else can be loved. And it doesn't make me less loved. Like, when we say it out loud, it's like, yeah, of course. But I don't think the way we live our lives shows that we actually believe that to be true.
[00:37:36] Speaker B: Love is not a zero sum game. It's not a zero sum game. And the idea that others flourishing is any threat to us is problematic at its core. And it's not the heart of God.
[00:37:47] Speaker A: Right. Right. I think for me, that's where it all started. Because, listen, again, I'm not trying to offend the white women. I am one. I, up until a number of years ago, lived in a white bubble, and truly, truly, truly did not. And this feels like a confession now, because I wish I had gotten here sooner, but, like, I did not have to. I didn't worry about. I'm like, it never crossed my mind that, like, I didn't have any minority friends. It didn't cross my mind to listen to their stories. I really did not understand how the lives of other people affected me whatsoever. And I think it's like you were saying earlier that John Ward book. Right. Like, I was seeing Christianity through a straw, and I was seeing the gospel through a straw. And so that was all I knew was how things affected me. And it wasn't until I was able to expand my definition of who God is and how much he loves that I was then able to go, oh, there is so much more than just Kristen, than just my family.
[00:38:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
The real story, the full story, the whole story is so rich and juicy and divine, and it's better than we think. When you think of the gospel and you think of the goodness of God, the story gets better and better the more you lean in.
[00:39:09] Speaker A: Yeah. In a way that doesn't even make sense. And I now embrace that.
[00:39:13] Speaker B: Doesn't even.
[00:39:13] Speaker A: I like now embrace that. Yeah.
[00:39:16] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's. It's outrageously imperfect and messy and nuanced, and people aren't perfect. So the story is always a little raggedy.
[00:39:23] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, we're all involved in it, right.
[00:39:27] Speaker B: So it's gonna be a. It's gonna be a little funky. Yeah, a little funky, indeed.
[00:39:35] Speaker A: Well, you wrote in here, you said, the one who makes everything holy and whole makes us holy and whole, and in turn, we push for wholeness in our world. So, again, it's the same idea, but what does that look like?
[00:39:46] Speaker B: Yeah. I was inspired by Viola Davis in her recent book, which won a Grammy for the audio, by the way, finding me, I believe it's called. And she says, we all think we have a different purpose in this life. Our purpose is. We all have the same purpose. Our purpose is to heal. And I was so struck by that, and I feature that quote in the book from her. And it really got me thinking of this idea that we all think we're on these individual paths. We all, like you talked about, this individual faith, this individual journey, and it's more collective than we'd love to admit. And we have more of the same desire, or just our human soul, like, guttural desire, is to heal and for wholeness. That's what we're pushing for. That is why we exist here, is to heal the broken pieces of us. And so when I talk about the one who makes us holy and whole, when we taste that, when that starts to become our reality, and that's what we're offering to others, that is when we see change. Because you can't have communal flourishing without involving community members and without considering all community members, whether they look like you or not. And so I just. In my hunt for wholeness, I am more convinced than ever that this is how we change generations. And this is our legacy. This is our legacy. May it be one of holiness and wholeness and healing.
[00:41:10] Speaker A: Yeah, well, and again, back to that, I'm like, oh, I really get the self care part.
You know, it's like the whole, like, when you're flying and the whole oxygen mask analogy. Like, you. You have to put your own on first before you can help other people. And I just thought, same thing. Like, I don't need to be trying to put a bandaid on my daughter's knee while I'm over here bleeding out. Like, let's do some healing before I try to help somebody else get up and walk.
[00:41:37] Speaker B: Come on. Yeah, absolutely.
[00:41:38] Speaker A: That's good.
Well, how do you balance not wanting to? Because, again, with talking about, I think you're. I think your voice is so needed, and I think you're saying things that people need to hear.
But I also just imagine that there's going to be a little bit of resistance or pushback, possibly. So how do you balance not wanting to offend people while also encouraging them to change?
[00:42:02] Speaker B: Yeah, I think about this a lot because growing up in a predominantly white space, Kristen, I didn't meet another person of color until I was 13.
And I didn't meet another indian woman until I was probably 18, I think. So. I am so intent on giving on ramps. On ramps, at every point, versus being like, you're doing it wrong. Even you trying is wrong. Like, I. I can think of voices. That's the energy you get. You're like, hey, I'm making an effort to be a better person and impact the world for the better. And being told you're doing it wrong and being told it's not enough or it's. It's. It's wasted energy, invested poorly. And I I think about this, and I talk about this with my husband. I'm like, everyone needs on ramps. Everyone needs on ramps. And nobody needs their hands slapped when they're learning.
Jen Hatmaker talks about how leaving the door open for other people, like, prop the door open or hold the door open. And I always loved that visual of the idea of holding it open. And I just love the idea of on ramps. Like, hey, you're learning in whatever way we are all so subject to our geopolitical upbringing. We really are. And whatever our parents, you know, told us and fed us and what we believe to be true. And Aunt Peggy. Right. So this idea that we can have on ramps of learning and on ramps of understanding and proximity and all these things we can do to grow and stretch, to not only flourish in our own lives, but invite others to flourish, I think, takes time and takes tenderness and takes kindness. And so, even as I write, I am so cognizant of let those who read be nourished by the fruit from my life. I don't want this to be bitter to them.
[00:43:44] Speaker A: Taste.
Oh, that's really good.
The Holy Spirit is like, kristen, that was literally just for you. Write it down. Take notes.
Because I tend to, especially when I'm talking about things that I'm passionate about, which, again, are things that I really feel like God is like, say this, say this. This needs to be said. You know, this is a concept that people need to hear, but I tend to get a little punchy. Um, and my pastor Naim, once, he was like, listen, it's okay to be punchy, but you're, like, gonna knock people on the floor.
[00:44:16] Speaker B: Like, you need to.
[00:44:18] Speaker A: You need to pull back and lead with love and lead with compassion. And so that's on ramps, and leaving the door open is really good. I like that.
[00:44:28] Speaker B: I think it's.
I like that, though. I like his analogy for you, punch. You're like, no, just a slight push never hurt nobody.
[00:44:34] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
Well, the other analogy that he gave me was that I was like a margarita. He was like, listen, it's good and it's strong, but it's a little too strong.
[00:44:44] Speaker B: Like, there you go.
[00:44:48] Speaker A: Like, add a little more lime juice to that.
[00:44:50] Speaker B: Okay. That is.
[00:44:51] Speaker A: You're speaking my language. I'm like, okay, now I got it, I got it.
[00:44:55] Speaker B: I like it. I feel you. I can be spicy, but I speak to be understood, not to enrage others, you know?
[00:45:03] Speaker A: That's great. That's good. Yeah, that's good. Well and truly, which I say to other people, so I should take on myself.
You're never going to change anybody's mind by arguing with them or yelling at them.
[00:45:13] Speaker B: Yes. You actually just said something about this, and I was so struck, and I was like, oh, my goodness. Say it, girl. Yes. I feel like you just said something about this, and it hit me between the eyes. It really did.
[00:45:25] Speaker A: It was probably. I preached a sermon on joining the fight that I have pink boxing gloves on. Was that what it was?
Yeah, but, yeah, that's the idea, right?
[00:45:35] Speaker B: Mm hmm.
[00:45:36] Speaker A: We're not gonna strong arm people. Yes.
[00:45:39] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Even though we know we could take them. Let's be real.
Yeah. If we have to take this to the streets, we can do it, but we're not gonna.
[00:45:52] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah.
Before I ask you the last question, Tiffany, is there anything else that you want to say about the book or just anything in general?
[00:46:01] Speaker B: Yeah, one of the things that you said, you're like, oh, devotional is fluffy. That is actually the feedback I get. Like, oh, you wrote a devotional. And I'm like, don't knock it till you try it.
And I know this is going to come off prideful. So I fully hear myself and I'm going to say it anyway. I wrote the devotional I wanted to read. I wrote a devotional that was equal parts women's history, a journalistic approach, contemplative and challenging, and considers the other. And so, yes, you're going to hear a different story from a different person in history in every essay and every entry. And then it's going to invite you to weave that with your theological understanding and your understanding of God and scripture. And then it moves into these beautiful breath prayers that honor the God of each woman that I'm mentioning, what we glean from her story and questions to really push yourself in journal and ponder. So I truly invited this to be an assessment of the mental furniture we have about ourselves and others and women in general. So it follows a lovely cadence. And I know that there's some stories in there about women in the Middle east and women in the diaspora, south asian diaspora, that might be a little. That might push people's limits. Like, why is this in a christian devotional? Just go with me. Just try it out. Let's see how it goes. Let's see how it goes. Let's see what the Lord says to you when you're reading.
[00:47:30] Speaker A: So be open, right?
[00:47:32] Speaker B: Be open. Yeah. I definitely stretch the limits on what we would call a devotional.
[00:47:37] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, it surprised me in the best way.
It surprised me in the best way. I was like, are we really going to do a whole interview and podcast episode on devotional? I'm not sure. But then I got it, Tiffany, and it really is. I don't think it's prideful at all to say I wrote the book that God put on my heart to write. Like, there is nothing easy about writing a book. There is nothing easy about using your voice to speak up, especially when you're trying to champion and fight for people that are often overlooked or unseen. So I'm real excited about it. Like, I genuinely. I'm gonna take it to my house and I'm gonna. This is gonna be my next 40 days.
Morning devotion. So. Well, because the show is called becoming church and we talked about this a little bit already, but how can people listening become the church to those around them?
[00:48:29] Speaker B: And I. Forgive me if I'm a broken record, but I'm really, really passionate about expanding your understanding of the christian faith to be more than just your rapturous event and what happens in eternity. But what does it look like now to embody the fruit of the spirit? And who is tasting that and eating that day in and day out? Is it your coworkers? Is it your. Your kids? Because, you know, we're the most impatient with the people closest to us. Is it your neighbor, your physical neighbors next door? Is it those you work out at the gym with? I don't know who you interface with every day, listener, but I pray that they would be nourished by what is nourishing you.
[00:49:15] Speaker A: Yeah, well, and I think once we finally. Like my prayer for people, is that they would almost be able to see it happen without effort. You know, I think this kind of self care guided devotion, like, once we're able to truly embody and truly accept how God loves us and how we get to walk around with the Holy Spirit inside of us, reflecting Jesus, I think once we actually really start to accept that, it just kind of oozes out of us.
[00:49:44] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:49:44] Speaker A: You know, it doesn't take as much effort. It just kind of happens.
[00:49:47] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:49:48] Speaker A: That's right. That'd be my prayer, too.
Well, thank you so much for being here. This was so fun. We will link up all your website in the book and everything else in the show.
[00:50:02] Speaker B: So, guys, go get it.
[00:50:08] Speaker A: It really is my prayer for you that through this devotion, this podcast episode, and all of the conversations that I get to have here, that you are being transformed by the Holy Spirit. Moving in your life, changing your mind, rethinking things, even getting uncomfortable in your faith are not bad, and it doesn't mean that you're doing it wrong. I actually think it's a sign that you're listening to what it is that God is saying uniquely to you. I'd love for you to share this episode with someone who came to mind as you were listening, even if it's a white woman you're afraid I'm going to offend. You can assure them that I am one of them, too. Thanks so much for listening. And until next time, keep becoming church. To the people around.
