Episode Transcript
[00:00:09] Speaker A: If you're listening in real time, midterm elections are coming up on Tuesday, November 3rd. While many of you took advantage of early voting, I know there are still some of you who aren't convinced that you need to participate. And my prayer is that today's pastoral guidance will give you some new insight. I'm Kristen Mauchhler Young, and this is Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christ, but about becoming the church. Each week, we explore the intersection of faith, culture, and everyday life through the lens of Jesus. I'm here today with my friend Libon Abraham, who's the pastor of Bentry Fellowship Church in Dallas, Texas. He put out a beautiful letter to his congregation last week encouraging them why it's important to vote, especially as Christians. And I asked him to come on and share with you as well.
Libin. Hello, friend. Welcome to the Becoming Church podcast.
[00:01:03] Speaker B: Thrilled to be on. Happy to hang out with you.
[00:01:05] Speaker A: Yes. And not only that, but I was trying to figure out, like, emergency episode is not the right wording because it's not an emergency. But it was very timely that I was like, we gotta make this happen.
[00:01:16] Speaker B: Did someone cancel on you? You needed to fill in?
[00:01:18] Speaker A: No, no, I promise. Although if they did, I mean, you would be a really great choice.
[00:01:26] Speaker B: Call me anytime. I'm always a filler. Just call me anytime.
[00:01:30] Speaker A: No, it's great. So you and I, we met a number of years ago through Mosaics with Mark Demaz. I think we've shared, like, platform space, you know, being in Q&As together. Yeah,
[00:01:41] Speaker B: I got to do two Mosaic conferences with you, and so we were doing a breakout session one time, and then. Then we. We hosted Mosaic at our church a year ago, and so got to hang out then.
[00:01:51] Speaker A: Well, why don't you tell us a little bit about your church, you know, in the context maybe of where you guys are located in America.
[00:02:00] Speaker B: Yes. Our church is Bentry Bible Fellowship. It's in North Dallas, and so here in Texas, the Bible Belt. And I was in Houston before then, leading out there. And about five and a half years ago, the Lord called us Adventure. And it's been an amazing journey. Our church is amazing. A few things we love about our church is, like, it is growing ethnically diverse, politically diverse, socioeconomically in every way. We're seeing the beauty of God through the church that Jesus is forming here. And Dallas itself is a diverse community, but there's still a lot of churches who are like, okay, this is my political tribe. Or here's everyone that looks just like me. And the church already had a deep vision to reflect our community and to reflect heaven.
So I came in, you know, 2021 and. And I said, look, we don't have a plan, but we've got a prayer and a posture to just receive all this ascending. And so that's been kind of our heart is, Lord, we want to be available to be used by you and to really portray the gospel that is good news for all and not just for some. And we're seeing the Lord do that.
Mentor has had a deep history of preaching the gospel and expositional teaching. And I think in more recent years, we're growing in understanding who the Holy Spirit is and the gifts of the Spirit.
What does it look like to really have a culture of prayer that drives our mission and discipleship and all of that?
We are egalitarian church, so we love seeing the gifts of our sisters and our brothers be used together. We just call it shared leadership. We're always designed to be people who share in leadership, just as it was in the garden before the fall. And so we love that, really believe that every person is gifted with purpose and sent on mission, whether that's a special needs kiddo or a student. No one has a junior version of the Holy Spirit, but to see the whole church alive and making their difference in the world. And so, yeah, that's in a nutshell, who we are and some of the ethos that describes us. And we're grateful to be a part of this community and what the Lord is doing. And we just celebrated 50 years as a church about a couple months ago, but we feel like some really great days are ahead of us.
[00:03:57] Speaker A: Congratulations. 50 years. Holy moly. That's amazing.
[00:04:01] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, that's
[00:04:03] Speaker A: awesome.
[00:04:04] Speaker B: God has us here for much longer until he returns.
[00:04:07] Speaker A: Good. Okay. So, Livin, I would not have guessed that Dallas is a diverse city, but it is.
[00:04:14] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Especially north Dallas and all around Dallas, really. I mean, just the. The tech boom, the medical industry, the energy corridor. It has literally brought in the nations. And Houston, when I was in Houston, it was. Our county was the most diverse in the country at that time for Bend County. And here in Denton county, it is. It is the same.
There's just the nations that are surrounding us. And it's sort of like that Luke passage when Jesus says, you know, I'm gonna call people from the east, west, north, and the south and be seated at the. At the table. And we feel like. And God has literally scooped up the nations and brought them here among us. And now that's. That's like a political conversation, too. Like, some people are like, oh, how do they get here? And it's legally. And I get, like, we don't want people to come to scams and all those kind of things. And that has happened. But. But we really feel like God has brought the nations here so that Acts 17 could happen where while people were searching for God, they would find him through us.
Right across the street of our parking lot is actually the largest Muslim seminary in the country. And so I remember when they moved in, like, right after Covid, I sent a whole message to our church, like, hey, this is not a threat, a threat or a problem. What an opportunity that God would love them so much to put them right in our neighborhood right across the street. And so we're going to be the best neighbors, and we're going to bring Jesus to them. And so that's the kind of the environment that we're in. And we're grateful to be a part of God's story in this hour.
[00:05:35] Speaker A: Libin, what does that look like for you to have a Muslim community basically in your parking lot and to love them? Well, like, what does that actively look like for you guys?
[00:05:45] Speaker B: Yeah, I think we've talked about what does it look like to be good neighbors? And so it's crazy, you know, they would. They use our parking lot for some stuff, you know, and so, like, hey, we're going to share a parking lot with a Muslim group.
Yeah. Part of you is like, man, am I aiding in false worship? And the other part is like, this may be the only Jesus they encounter, and we may be the only Christians they encounter. So we want to come across as radically hospitable and kind and really valuing them.
So even as we've had a lot of anti Muslim Islam, anti Islam rhetoric, I actually went over there with some of our leaders and just said, hey, we value who you are and we want to know, we want to discern what's the message you would love for archers to hear. And so now that's not to say that there aren't stark differences in what we believe in worldview. And I actually just did a whole sermon to our church body around what does it look like for us to love Muslims well, to reject Islam as an ideology or religion and then to share Jesus, because we need to do all three of those things really well in this season. And so we have a gospel around the uniqueness of Jesus. He's not just a Prophet, he's a messiah, He's Lord, so we're going to worship him. But we can love Muslims and reject a false religion and do those things together while sharing Jesus. And so I think the more if we see people as a threat, we're not going to love them. Well, if we see them as an issue or a problem.
Before Muslims are a religion, there are people made in God's image. And God didn't just love the Christians that he sent Jesus, he loved the world.
I think we're getting closer and closer to the first century with religious plurality and diversity and ethnic diversity. And that's actually the context in which the gospel thrives.
So we're excited for the opportunity we have.
[00:07:21] Speaker A: That's awesome. Well, and I would add too, we can't have people be a project, right? Like, if they moved in and all of a sudden you guys were like, our only goal every time we talk to you is to tell you about Jesus every single time without getting to know them, listening to them. I think it's beautiful that you were like, what's the message that you want for our people to understand?
I mean, that's how Jesus works, right? It's in. It's through relationship, it's through recognizing people's humanity. So,
[00:07:44] Speaker B: yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. And I think I want.
The vision I gave our church is like, we cannot let the world out love us. You know, like when they find themselves in need or crisis, like, we've got to be the first to show up. And that's the story of the early church. Like this,
[00:08:00] Speaker A: this
[00:08:00] Speaker B: love, this way of loving people. The stranger, the enemy and the neighbor was so radical that it changed the world. So I have a. We have a staff member who is a former Muslim. She serves on our staff and she had this fear with a lot of our neighbors coming into our lobby to get coffee because we have a coffee shop that they love and they. We just. That's been a really cool way to see them and hang out with them.
[00:08:22] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:08:23] Speaker B: She's like, I know that for a person who, who is radicalized, you know, not for every Muslim, but for someone who's got a radical thoughts, like, because I'm a convert, I should be killed.
So I think, you know, yeah, that might be the case. But what does Jesus require of us? Like enemy love is a distinctive of the gospel. So even if someone makes you their enemy, we don't actually get to make them our enemy. Like, we love enemies. And so that is a hard call to love neighbor and enemy. But that is the Gospel. And that is so. I think we're in a season where, you know, our confidence in the gospel, our identity as gospel people, it's going to be really tested.
It is hard to love the enemy more than your friend, more than a neighbor, but to really love both. Well. And, you know, and even if people make us enemy, we don't get to make them our enemy.
We're called to love and serve and be Jesus to them
[00:09:14] Speaker A: right now. And we were literally just having a conversation as a staff this week, like two days ago about this very thing. We're reading the book Irresistible by Andy Stanley. Have you read
[00:09:23] Speaker B: that? Yeah, it's so good.
[00:09:25] Speaker A: Oh, so good. And we were talking about how, like, yes, this is what we're called to, but holy smokes, it is so hard. It is so hard to genuinely live, like you said, where we don't decide that if other people make us enemy, that we treat them as enemy and always leading with love. And.
[00:09:40] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. You know, and he talks about in that book of just in the early church, and it's, I think from Acts, like, they. The church is so irresistible. They were like, they couldn't wait to get in. You know,
[00:09:50] Speaker A: they
[00:09:50] Speaker B: couldn't
[00:09:51] Speaker A: wait to be
[00:09:51] Speaker B: in front of this. And so I think there's, you know, I know there's some. I talked about two polarization things in my letter, but I think also in the way that we engage culture, like, there's either people who are fighting culture or. Or just getting along with culture, but what you see in the church of Acts is they made the culture curious. And so, like, my vision for can we live in such a way that we make the world so curious?
What is it about these people? Like, they're so radical in their generosity and love and the way they show up and the way they are at work and the way they treat my family and the way they love all my kids, it's like, how can the church get in the business? And really, how, how. How can we make ourselves available to the Holy Spirit, to where we live in such a way that we create the greatest curiosity in the world, not fighting culture or getting along with culture, but living in such a gospel distinctive way that it creates radical curiosity and makes the church irresistible in that way.
[00:10:49] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, man, that would be the goal. Right? And it's like, we all have to come together in or as. As the global church
[00:10:55] Speaker B: to
[00:10:55] Speaker A: make this happen.
Yeah. We have to lead in not being divisive or competitive, really, is what I see a lot.
[00:11:04] Speaker B: Well,
[00:11:04] Speaker A: I've Been. You mentioned it and you did. You put out a letter to your church about the upcoming midterm, which a time of recording is a couple days from now.
And so I would really love to kind of dig into that. I thought there was some great truth, some beautiful challenge and encouragement.
And so I'm curious, what were you seeing or hearing, either directly or indirect, indirectly from your congregation that made you feel like you needed to write a letter like this?
[00:11:31] Speaker B: Yeah, I think one of the. Like I mentioned, one of the uniqueness about our church is we're in that messy middle, or the. I think C.S. lewis used the term the deep. The deep middle where Jesus is.
[00:11:40] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:11:42] Speaker B: And we've got people in our congregation that vote Democrat and Republican. We got conservatives, all of that.
[00:11:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:11:49] Speaker B: And so we're in a unique space and there's a lot of. There's a lot of churches in our area, but they're all politically pretty homogenous, either one way or the other. But I think we have a unique opportunity as a church to be a unified people, representative of everybody.
And really, I started talking about how we engage in politics back in 2 and a half years ago, during the last election, when we had two people in our congregation running against each other.
So in
[00:12:19] Speaker A: your congregation?
[00:12:20] Speaker B: In our congregation running against each other. And so
[00:12:22] Speaker A: like for a Senate seat or something.
[00:12:24] Speaker B: Yeah, a Texas Senate. Yeah. And
[00:12:27] Speaker A: so. Yeah.
[00:12:27] Speaker B: And so I, you know, I sat down with both of them and said, hey, we want to honor one another. I know you have different convictions and, and all of that, but I just want you to picture standing next to each other and being able to take communion with your heart and your conscious, free of guilt or with integrity, you know, so that, that. And so I did a whole series around Jesus and politics back then before the election, they really wanting us to get in the right posture of how we engage in this. And so this has been ongoing conversation, really discipling our people in this, because just like everybody else, we're all going to be discipled or influenced by our favorite newscaster or social media algorithms, but really, like, what does it mean to be the people of Jesus in such a moment as this?
And so I feel this responsibility to walk our people through just what does it mean to live in this way? So that's where the letter came from.
But at the same time, there are things that unite us, like the person of Jesus, the work of the Spirit, God's word. And so my impetus for the letter was like, we may disagree politically, but we should be able to agree Morally lead spiritually and love unconditionally. And so sometimes we will vote our convictions and then outsource our actions. And, and you know, I don't want us to be a people who just think voting is the only way. There's so much more we can do. And really how you show up to your neighbor and how you show up, you know, in your actions is the long term. You don't just have a voice once every two years or once every four years. You have a chance and a voice every day to embody the core convictions and values of Jesus.
And so, and so my whole letter was around like, we need to be a, we need to pray and think and vote.
And I think a lot of people start with vote, then think and pray, but like, listen to the voice of the Spirit.
Because so much of our formation happens around like, what do I not like about a person? Who do I hate? Like, what's my
[00:14:22] Speaker A: right?
[00:14:23] Speaker B: Who did I get the most amount of ads from? And usually there are so many voices shaping our vote and shaping our values. And I just wanted us to be a people who are praying first and to lead prayerfully. I mean, that's what Paul tells Timothy. Like, pray for everybody. Like, and this is when like you have the most evil emperor ruling Rome who is killing believers, things that pray for them, respect them.
Because it's really hard to hate somebody that you're genuinely praying for.
[00:14:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:49] Speaker B: And so it's, and you can stop.
We can easily get into like demonizing people.
Well, when you're genuinely bringing somebody before the Lord and you're not praying against them, you're praying for them, you're actually not able to demonize in the same way because you recognize that person is a dad or a mom, that's a sibling, that's a child of God or that's a brother in the Lord, or that's an image bearer. And so really praying first I think gives us, and I think beginning with prayer, it lets us vote without anxiety.
See, I think Christians should be the most non anxious presence in a highly anxious world. Right?
[00:15:25] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:15:26] Speaker B: Just think about the moments that Jesus showed up in the middle of politics and earthly power. He's standing before Pilate or Herod and they're all trying to get him to say stuff and answer questions. And he stood still. He didn't defend himself, he didn't fight back. He knew who he was.
[00:15:40] Speaker A: I
[00:15:40] Speaker B: mean, even when Judas is about to betray him and Jesus knew that he's about to do it, man, he just went and washed his Feet, because he knew where he came from and where he was going and who he was. And so I think for the church to, like, anchor ourselves in this deep spiritual well of prayer intimacy with Jesus that gives us confidence and love for one another and prohibits us from, like, living anxiously like the rest of the world, but full of hope and joy. So I think that's a beautiful way to begin and really paying attention to who is the loudest voice that's shaping my values and my vote in this season.
[00:16:15] Speaker A: Yeah, I want to walk through each of these things that you ask people to do, to pray, to think and to vote and get a little bit, like, dig a little bit deeper. So obviously, we want to pray. Right. For the people that we see. See as the quote, unquote, like, the other side. Right. We want to pray for those people that we disagree with. Livin, what are you encouraging your people to pray about over the next few days, specifically, as you're encouraging them to participate in the election? Like, is there. Are there specific things that you want them to pray about besides just their hearts towards other people?
[00:16:48] Speaker B: Yeah, I've talked to our church about this before, and I'm not the only person to do it, But I want them to look at all of the convictions that the gospels and the New Testament letters give us about morality and life in the public space and the private spaces.
And so usually people think about, like, okay, one issue that I'm for, and it. But actually, when you look at the early church, there was multiple things that the church stood for, and they all mattered equally. So they preached the exclusivity of Jesus, this crucified and risen Savior. They talked about the marginalized, they cared for the poor. Like, that was a unique moral distinctive the church. Church had. Like, they were the only people who were running into cities that were struck by plagues.
They. They caused the. The first sexual revolution around purity and singleness and faithfulness in marriage. Like, the Roman culture was, man, you get to be generous in bed, like, with your spouse, and be stingy with your money. And Christians, like, no, no, no, we're going to be committed to our spouse and be generous with our money.
I do think that they held on to a biblical vision of marriage to be between man and a. And a woman and all of that that Jesus brings to the forefront. And they also honored people of different social and ethnic lines. You have the Jew and the Greek and the slave and the free and the male and female, which is right. But you also have the barbarian and the Scythian, like, Those are like very different socioeconomic classes. And the church created a space where they all could belong together.
They went after the immigrant and the foreigner, created spaces for people who didn't have a place to belong. They overlooked and the marginalized and like they did. I mean, you think about the culture of infanticide and all of that. They stood for human life, both unborn and born. And so you have all of these things that the church stood for and shaped by. And I want to as a people, how do I value if God values all of them equally? And the church was marked by core ethics around all of those things. What does it look like for us to lead in that way? And I get that, man, based on your life experience and where you grew up. And like, some of those things may matter more.
But I just want us to be a people where the church embodies all those realities. And something that I've invited our churches. It's easy to critique the other party, but we should be able to critique our own party when they fall short of our convictions. Like, if we ever lose the ability to hold ourselves accountable or to critique our own party, then we have truly idolized that party and we are healthy. As when people in both political camps, like, really move their camp closer to the way of Jesus and to the ethics of the gospel and not be so blindsided. So I think those are some of the things that I want our people to be thinking about.
And I think there's a hopeful piece that I've invited our church to think about is, hey, America has been a unique experiment where for a few hundred years, we've had cultural and political power, and that's been good for the church and good for the world.
But that's a rarity. In most of the last 2,000 years, the church has not had cultural power, political power, financial power, or social power.
And today, if you look at where is the church growing most rapidly and where are they most persecuted? And without cultural political power, it's the same countries, you know, because the church has never needed cultural, political, or financial power to excel and to be fruitful.
Our confidence has never been in who is in office and what kind of cultural political power do we have. Our confidence is in the spiritual power and the power of a risen savior. And so, like, no matter what happens in elections, whether your party gets in or not or your person gets voted in or not, like, the impact and the power of the church has not been lessened by that. In fact, we are healthiest when we rely solely on the power of the Spirit, this power from above, not from below. And really, I think in a place where we can shift our hope and confidence into earthly systems and governments and. No, let's, let's place it into a spiritual power. That's always been the primary motivator for the church of Jesus.
[00:20:45] Speaker A: Yes, yes. And I do think though, too, and I'm curious your thoughts on this for the, like, the quote unquote, the church to be in power. Right. Because that's going to mean different things to different people. Because some people are going to be like, this is a good. This is good. Other people are going to say, this is not good. Where.
I mean, you're in Texas, so I know that you understand, like there's different. Right. Political and religious, they've been combined, especially in recent years.
And so I'm just curious what your thoughts are on that, because I do think that there can be a danger when we let the church and that kind of power be so connected.
[00:21:24] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:25] Speaker A: Because we don't have a universal. Like, everybody agrees that this is, there is universal truth. Hear me saying. I don't think there's a universal agreement across Christians, American Christians that are saying, no, this is the kind of Christianity that we want to see reflected in the White House, for example.
[00:21:45] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:45] Speaker A: What are your thoughts on that?
[00:21:46] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, the way I see it is we're in a season where you have really, it's a scene when Pilate has two Jesuses on his hands.
So when you read that, the crucifixion scene, there's Barabbas and there's Jesus. But the way that Matthew names Barabbas is he is Jesus Barabbas.
[00:22:05] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:22:06] Speaker B: Right. And so you have. So his actual first, you know, his name was Jesus Barabbas. And Barabbas also means son of the Father. So it's amazing the parallel. You have Jesus the Messiah, the only begotten son of the Father, then you have Jesus Barabbas.
And both of these Jesuses want to change the world. Barabbas does it by earthly power. He's a zealot.
Competing tribalism, let's just overthrow the government. Let's use physical means.
That's how he wants to bring about a revolution.
Well, Jesus on the hand, he's not causing a revolution. He's here to redeem.
It's the way of love. It's the way of the cross. It's loving your enemy. It's turning the other cheek. It's the beatitude.
And so you got two Jesuses, and Barabbas represents the way of the world. But Jesus Messiah represents the way of the cross.
And the church will have to choose which Barabbas or which Jesus do we want? Do we want to change the world by the way of Barabbas fighting competing earthly power systems, or are we willing to follow the way of the cross?
And here's the thing, Kristen.
In the immediate sense, usually Barabbas win because the crowd demanded, give us Barabbas. They thought he was the stronger, more efficient way to change the world.
But in the long term, it's Jesus who wins the way of the cross that transforms.
And people will almost always demand a Barabbas, give us Barabbas, take Jesus. But really, God's plan for the world is the way of the cross. And so I think for us as a people, for the church, is like, what does it look like for us to live a cruciform life that makes sense with the cross?
And it is not fighting for power. And all of those things which, man, if God uses those kind of things to bring transformation, awesome. But that's never been the primary way that God changes. And so.
So to be a people marked by love more than anything marked by sacrifice, I think there are some unique gospel ethics that we have to look in the mirror and say, is this. Does this describe the way we're going about things? And I think. And I think that's the distinction. Like, it's the means by which we're seeking to change the world. Is it the way of Jesus or is it the way of Barabbas?
I heard somebody, I think it was Ian Simpkins who talked about, like, it's fine if people hate us because of Jesus, but let's not make people hate Jesus because of us. I was like, dude, that is so good. Like, I see the church is. It's actually people who are drawn away from the church because of what Christians are living in. And really, it's like we're hoping in the same things that the world is hoping in and fighting the same way and competing the same way. And like, we're, you know, we're losing this prophetic nature that the church has always had to speak. Truth to power and compassion to power.
And I believe that the church's unique role in the world is to be this exilic people, this prophetic consciousness of a city and of a nation.
And the more we are embedded and woven into earthly powers, it becomes harder and less effective to be that prophetic witness that the world deeply needs the church to be.
[00:25:21] Speaker A: Yeah, well, and I'm so Glad that you. I love your. Which Jesus do we want to choose? That. That's a fantastic illustration because that has to be our lens, right? We have to pray through the lens of Jesus. We have to think through the lens of Jesus. We have to vote through the lens of Jesus. Like, that has to always be the way that we know. Like, people will ask, like, how do I know if I'm on the right side? How do I know if I'm like, okay, filter everything, like you said, through Jesus. And I think one of the things especially that we have to pray for is that sense of humility. Right? To go. I don't want to just be known for who I'm against, but I want to myself be willing for God to be able to go, hey, like, you're actually embodying the same characteristics that you're criticizing on quote, unquote, like, the other side. We have to be able to hear that and recognize that in ourselves.
Otherwise, we become the version of the thing that we want to hate, just like, in a different way.
[00:26:17] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, for
[00:26:19] Speaker A: sure. And I think.
[00:26:20] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think that's. And that's maybe the temptation of. Of wanting to win. You know, it's like, man, we will compromise core conviction. And I've seen this in the conservative Party, like, I mean, just the core values of family and all of that integrity that conservative parties have been around, and the left has had that too. But now, like, it's like, oh, we're gonna just not pay attention to that so we can allow for whatever's happening in the White House. I was like, no, like, don't. Like, character still matters and, like, commitment to marriage and holiness, like, all that should still matter. And, like, it's not. Give up core convictions because you want to make room for someone to. To lead.
So that goes back to. We want to hold ourselves accountable and our own party accountable to. To the way of Jesus and the word of God.
[00:27:04] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, livin, after you encouraged your congregation to vote and. Or I'm sorry, to pray and to think you did encourage them to vote.
But I want to pause really quick because you were trying to warn them.
In doing so, you're like, we don't want to be politically passive, but we also don't want to, you know, be.
Have political idolatry. So will you kind of talk about the danger of both of those two things?
[00:27:29] Speaker B: Yeah, because I've seen this in members of our church or people I listen to.
Some people are like, man, like, political idolatry is like, hey, this is the only lever that's going to move the needle. And this is where everything's going to happen. And so, like, my identity is in that. Like, this is. We gotta fight for this because our hope is in politics. Like, no, it's not. You know, like, that is. And I've talked to people who were in the political spaces for decades, and they said, man, I kept pushing this lever, but it's not changing anything, you know, so I'm gonna, you know, think about other ways to impact change. And so political idolatry is when we put our ultimate hope and give politicians or a system a savior complex.
Hey, this is what's going to make America great, or this is what's going to redeem America or bring us back.
And God can use everything.
But that's not ultimately where our hope is. Our hope is in Jesus. Our hope is in the impact that the church has in the world.
And on the other side, you have political passivity. So people who might think, man, my voice doesn't matter, so I'm not going to vote, or I'm just so confused because everybody's flawed and both parties have issues and the system is broken.
And so then we don't actually use incredible privilege we have and a privilege that people fought for and bled over to be able to live in this republic. And so, no, we don't want to be passive. We do have a responsibility now.
We need to use our voice. And so I want us to avoid political idolatry and political passivity. But what does proper political engagement look like without the extremes? What does it look like to make our voice heard without putting our hope in the person that we're voting for? What does it look like to engage in this political process without our heart growing resentful or without us changing how we view the person next to us who might have voted differently? We literally have circle ups in our ministry teams where I know my vote just canceled out your vote, because you guys are on different things.
It's like, so we can engage in a healthy way.
And so I remember I preached a young little service. It was like eight years ago, whatever, after the first election where Trump was elected. And it was the night of election, it was Tuesday night. We had a young adult service. And I just talked about what does our faith post election look like? And there's a way that Christians can vote and then be at peace.
Like, we can cast our vote and then live in peace and live in deep love for one another. And so. And that's the right way to politically Engage where my view of my neighbor is indifferent, my view of the world. Like, I'm still as engaged in my Monday through Saturday, every day of the week. You know, all of my life is embedded in making a difference. So, yeah. Wanting to avoid idolatry and passivity, but through proper engagement,
[00:30:20] Speaker A: livin. It's so hard. It's so hard to like, to do that, right. To go, okay, we're going to circle up and I'm going to know that you and I disagree on these things that are very. It's very important to me. It's very important to you. We see them very differently. What practically are you doing?
Because we, our church is also like in the messy middle, like you called it, where we've got people on, you know, that vote differently. I would definitely say I don't think that we have extremes of either end.
[00:30:47] Speaker B: You
[00:30:47] Speaker A: know, if it's a bell curve, like we don't have the ones and twos or the nines and
[00:30:51] Speaker B: tens. We've already lost them here.
[00:30:52] Speaker A: Yeah.
Moment you don't take
[00:30:54] Speaker B: aside, those people have gone. And the thing is, like I read, I was listening to Leon talk about this a few days ago, like, churches on the extremes will grow much quicker. Like, it is hard to grow and lead a church in the middle because I think Barna's study said most people want to be in a church that agrees with them politically. And so they're seeing, and we're seeing it in Dallas, I mean, churches who have picked a lane and put their flag in, they're using politics as a means of church growth, you know, and so which I think is just so twisted because that's never been the cause of Jesus's church growing and being built. You know, it has been.
You know, it's a bit of different means, but the messy middle is hard because it is. I mean, you talk about Charlie Cronk differently than other churches or you talk about other things and you're being sensitive to all who's in the room and trying to keep our focus on Jesus, not on a political party.
[00:31:48] Speaker A: Yeah. It is hard, though. And I do think the churches, people crave certainty. Certainty. They crave comfort, they crave safety, they crave belonging, they crave identity. Right. And so I would say the extreme churches offer all of that because people know exactly what to expect. They're not going to have to really think about why they believe what they believe. They just go in and go, okay, like, will this fall in line a little bit? But I also do have hope that the people who are genuinely wanting to grow spiritually and focus on Jesus will have like a road to Damascus moment where whatever, you know, they're being blinded to, they'll eventually see it. I mean, I know for us, we have had people leave some of those extreme churches in Charlotte because they're like, all of a sudden we just realized that Jesus was no longer the main thing and that if we didn't agree politically, all of a sudden we. We were treated differently. And so my hope is that eventually we will be able to get back to that. But I'm curious what you guys do practically to help the people in your congregation see each other as more than just an opposite ideology or opinion.
[00:33:00] Speaker B: Sure. I mean, I think getting people to be in relationships with people who disagree with them politically is huge. Because in your small group, you have. And one of our uniqueness in terms of values is we're going to be a people compelled by love, finding unity and diversity, Everyone sent on mission, gifted with purpose, all those kind of things. And that unity and diversity, like your small group, is going to be made up of people who think differently about some political things than you do. And so actually calling it that, naming it, and equipping our leaders.
What do you do when political Patty shows up or whatever? Like, you know, we have a little. When that person is so gung ho about this political issue and they show up. And now you as a group leader, you're sitting there, what does sensitivity look like to the whole group? And people who may not see that same, but yet, like, let's actually lean into conversation and help here and not be shy of that, not be afraid of that, but leaning into conversation.
[00:33:58] Speaker A: So
[00:33:58] Speaker B: it's like the whole thing, like, you know, I stand based on where I used to sit. Like, like, based on your lived experience and what you've seen and what you've lived through. Now you have your convictions that you stand in a certain place.
And so. But helping people see things differently. And I'll usually ask somebody who is so gung ho one way politically, hey, can I connect you with somebody in our church who loves Jesus, loves this place, and I would love for you to hear their story. And we actually have threaded groups that's around, like, getting different people into group environments who think differently about race or politics.
We do a whole thing called let's talk race, because that was a huge, you know, thing that could be a division thing, but it's like, hey, let's just go through a journey of just seeing the history of race and the impact of. And so we have environments where people can get into relationships and hear a different perspective. And it may not change your mind, but at least now you have a little bit of an empathy or a sense of understanding. I can see how that that person can see it differently than I do.
And I think, I think, you know, you can.
There's something you will agree on. Like politics is often the, okay, how are we going to do about it? That's different. I think there's people who, who value human life who may be on the left. And I don't think that's because they're pro abortion. I think there's other means that they're going about seeing change, you know, and so sometimes it's not really what I believe that's different. It's how I believe we should go about it that's different. So I think diving into those layers helps bring unity and it also creates some bridges so that you can, you can connect with somebody and not feel like they're your enemy or they're opposed to you. But now at the end of the day, I think there's a lot more things we want in common. And, and there may be different things that are priority or mainly, Mainly it's where do we believe, what spaces do we believe those changes are executed?
[00:35:46] Speaker A: Yeah. I'm so glad that you are encouraging your people to lean in to the discomfort. Right. Instead of being like, okay, we're just gonna, we're not gonna like rock the boat. Everybody just be chill because you, you again. And it's so important that people hear this.
We're not connecting people or sharing perspectives to say, no, I'm ultimately right and you need to change your mind. But to help people understand different perspectives, lived perspectives from where people are coming from. And so I love that, I love that you guys are creating environments for conversation.
Livin. I'm curious for the person that maybe has only ever voted according to like one issue, you know, they've been single issue voters or they've leaned on the passivity side because of really only ever feeling like they've only ever thought of one specific issue.
I'm curious if you have any like, biblical insight for them to take a broader view when deciding how to cast their votes.
[00:36:45] Speaker B: Yeah, I think, I think, you know, even with, you know, and, and I would say I'm a, I'm a pro life person, but the way that I've, I've really framed that conversation is we're not just pro life, we're pro abundant life because that's what Jesus said in John 10:10, right? So usually when you hear pro life, you're thinking of a political system or category,
[00:37:03] Speaker A: correct?
[00:37:03] Speaker B: It's like, no, no, this is, this is beyond that. Jesus said, I've come to give you life and life in abundance. So what does abundance, life, abundant life look like for the baby in the womb, for the mom, for their whole life? And so I think even in some of those terms, like, what does the holistic view of life look like for. For that person? And so I would say, like, really at the heart of it, I mean, government was put in place to aid the flourishing of humanity, you know, to restrain evil, to promote justice, to embody righteousness, to be a discerning factor in some way. And so really, like, you want to vote? And what, what do we need most right now where we're not flourishing as a human society?
And so, and so leaning into that conversation, like, what. What causes the good for the majority of people and for the most people? And so that's not usually one thing. That's many things converging together.
And so those are.
Sometimes that creates challenges because parties sometimes embody different things. And that's why the kingdom of God is so much bigger than one system or one political view.
And so to think through what causes this human flourishing and to sometimes think about, okay, there's a role of the government and then there's a role of the individual.
And sometimes those are unique, right? And so based on, like, you know, whatever your, your party may be, like if they do something with immigration, like, you may have a, like you need to be core in your conviction, but here's my responsibility as a person and how I treat the immigrant, you know, so I think just looking at what's the invitation for the government, what's the invitation for the person?
And recognizing my vote is one of the ways. It's a big way, but it's one of the ways I make a difference. And I'm called as a follower of Jesus to show up in this way for anyone that comes across. And so really thinking about flourishment of humanity, what systems, policies, processes put in place allow for the most people to flourish and removes barriers for anyone to experience this life that Jesus has for them.
[00:39:06] Speaker A: Yeah, that's good. I mean, yeah, we want flourishing for humanity. Again, this is a filter, right? If we filter everything through this, I think it makes it a little bit easier sometimes, not always, but a little bit easier to go, okay, like, and I think like you said, we have to.
I think sometimes we try to like, bite off too much at one time and go like, okay, do we want to vote red or do we want to vote blue? And to your point, no, we need to break down and look at what are people running on, what are they standing against, what are they supporting with their finances, what are they actively doing and when we can take it. Like, almost like weighing a pros and cons list that might maybe will help somebody listening to help them figure out,
[00:39:47] Speaker B: you
[00:39:47] Speaker A: know, how they ultimately want to vote.
[00:39:48] Speaker B: Yeah. I think even, I mean, here in Texas, you got two Christians who are running for Texas Senate, you know, with Paxton and Tello Rico. And so, like, you know, and so it's. It's sort of like people are trying to judge, well, who's a real Christian here, who is most like. It's sort of like, which Christianity do I want to be part of?
I think it's. I think a person who is a disciple of Jesus. And I put this in the letter. There's three things that come together. There's orthodoxy, orthopaxy, and orthopathy. Those have been like three tenants of, like, what does a maturing relationship with Jesus look like? Orthodoxy is man. I have the right set of beliefs.
Orthopaxy is like, There's a sense of, like, here's how I feel. Here's the emotive. Here's. Here's the core passions of my life. The orthopathy, I think is. Here is. Here are my actions. Like, here's a character side of things.
[00:40:35] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:40:36] Speaker B: And so some people can say the right things, but their character doesn't prove it. Or the way that they show up in their passions doesn't show it. Some people can have the right character, but, like, they're hermeneutics may not be. And so that creates a whole new level of complexity. Because I can't just go off profession of faith on who's a follower of Jesus. Like, man, what is the holistic nature and how they embody belief, actions and passions that makes them trustworthy, in a sense. And so I think that's.
There's. Both sides of the political party are using Jesus more as a mascot than really submitting to his. Submitting to his lordship. And when you submit to your lordship, to his lordship, you do think differently, you do feel differently, and you show up in the world differently, marked by love, marked by sacrifice, marked by enemy love, and those kind of things. I want people to have a sense of discernment when they come to those who claim Jesus so that they can gain votes.
We taught on this, this week, when Paul is writing Timothy and 1 Timothy 6, he's addressing false teachers. And it's actually really fascinating what's happening. In 1 Timothy, verse 6, Paul is describing false teachers. And one of the ways he describes false teachers is they're using godliness as a way of material gain.
You know, and so I was like, that was present then. Like, they're using.
They're using godliness as a means of material gain. And a lot of people use Jesus instead of worshiping him, but they're using him for earthly power or gain or stuff. And it's like man. And Paul says, those who do that are depraved and the truth is not in them. And so, like, let's not use our faith for any kind of gain other than. And that's when Paul says, but godliness with contentment is great gain. Godliness is the grain. You don't need to use it to gain anything. That is the. Like, knowing Jesus, being secure in him by growing in your relationship with Jesus, that's the great gain that we need to pay attention to.
[00:42:38] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, in our. In ourselves. Right. We have to check, like we talked about earlier, the humility, and check. Okay. Am I producing fruits of the spirit and we can do the same thing. I mean, like you talked about, you know, it's all the things, what they say, what they do, how they live, how they carry it out. Are we seeing fruits of the spirit in this person's actions, words, whatever.
Just one more way, right, that we can hold a certain candidate up to the Gospel and just help us to make our decisions.
[00:43:04] Speaker B: Yeah, Yeah. I would say, you know, like, man just loving God's word in the midst of all the news. I mean, I think it was. I don't know if it's Billy Graham who once said it, but I'm reading the paper and I'm reading the Bible at the same time, because I. I just think we're.
We're in a place where we're reading everything and everybody and not clinging to the. To the Scriptures, you know, And I think God has something to say. And Jesus came into a very politically divided time. I mean, you have at least six groups of people who are contending for power. You got Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes, Zealots, Herodians, and the Romans.
And they're all wanting Jesus to side with them. But he just came and said, hey, I'm bringing in an entirely different kingdom that is not of this earth, not of this world, and this is going to outlast every earthly kingdom. And. And while everyone was trying to get Jesus to take a side, Jesus is Lord. And so he just created this better and eternal way to live. And so I think for us, what does it look like for us to be kingdom citizens first and party participants second, to be prayerful, prophetic, to be recognizing our exilic nature as a people of God, and then now how do we step into spaces in politics or career or whatever and pray for these kingdom convictions and values to come into a reality?
[00:44:26] Speaker A: Yeah, Lyman, last question for you.
Because the podcast is called Becoming Church, I want you to encourage the people that are still on the fence about whether or not they're going to vote. Okay. And I want you to encourage them, inspire them, that using their voice to vote actually will help them to become the church to their communities and their cities and the people around them.
[00:44:50] Speaker B: Yes. I think our faith has to influence every part of our life.
And God did. Jesus did say, you are the light and salt of the earth. And so there is something about what we bring in as followers of Jesus that's to bring light and beauty and flavor and stops decay and those kind of things.
And I think it's interesting when he talks about that salt and light and he speaks to the church and said, if you lose your saltiness, sometimes we are like, all the world is losing its saltiness. No, no, it's the church that's got to maintain this likeness of Jesus in the world. And salt there is like, man, what does the light of Jesus look like, the person and the character of Jesus look like to embody through my light. And so I would just say, like, this is one of those moments where our role needs biblical convictions, Jesus centered, gospel driven ethics to influence our every space of life. And as you pray and are led by the Spirit, as you see the issues in your city and our country, like you are invited to a. The gift of being able to vote. And so I think in Texas they said nine and a half million people don't vote or didn't vote in the last elections, in their last midterms. Nine and a half million. And these are registered voters. Nine and a half million. Majority of them
[00:46:02] Speaker A: just in Texas.
[00:46:03] Speaker B: Just in Texas. And the main reason why people didn't vote is they forgot. So, like, they just didn't. I was like, you must be hiding under a rock to forget. But.
And so I would say don't sit it out. Like, you know, engage, pray. Don't be anxious, don't be afraid. Like, let the spirit but cast your vote. Love your neighbor well, love the enemy well and offer your life to be used by God, not just in the ballot box, but every day of your life to be a voice of hope and love and grace for people to encounter Jesus through you. So yes, vote. But do more than vote and be a witness and a light wherever you are.
[00:46:40] Speaker A: Thank you Pastor. That was so good. I really appreciate, like I said, you jumping in so that we can just kind of guide people over the next couple days. Thank you so much for being here.
[00:46:48] Speaker B: Yeah, such a joy to be with you, Kristin. Have an awesome rest of the day. Thank you listeners for hanging out with us. I hope this was helpful.
[00:46:55] Speaker A: But we didn't tell you how to cast your ballot. No matter where in America you live. I hope that you heard the importance of three things praying for discernment and wisdom and how to uphold justice, righteousness and human flourishing for all people. How to think critically about the candidates presented to you and if their words, actions and character lead you to be fearful or to grow in the spirit and facing the temptation to be passive in this election with supernatural confidence. Not voting in allegiance with political ideology, but in the guidance of the Holy Spirit that you can trust to guide and lead you. If this was helpful, I hope you'll share it to encourage other people. And if you're looking for more conversations on the intersection of politics and faith, you can check out previous Becoming Church episodes with Ben Kramer, Sarah Stewart Holland, Beth Silvers and others.
Until next time, thank you so much for listening and keep becoming the church to the people around you.
