Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: One of the most polarizing aspects of culture today is media, and yet it's also the one that is in our faces literally more than anything else. There's no denying that media is forming us. The question is, to what extent is it discipling us? I'm Kristin Mauchar Young, and this is Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. Each week, we explore the intersection of faith, culture, and everyday life through the lens of Jesus Today. President and CEO of Christianity Today, Dr. Nicole Martin is here to talk about mistrust, manipulation, and misinformation in news and journalism. She also explains what CT means by its claim as evangelical. And if that label alone makes you want to stop listening, then this episode is definitely for you.
Dr. Nicole Martin, welcome to the Becoming Church podcast.
[00:01:06] Speaker B: Thank you so much, Kristen. It's great to be here.
[00:01:09] Speaker A: I'm so happy to have you listen. I am just sure that as president and CEO of Christianity Today, you see all kinds of things come across your desk. Right? Like, all kinds of things.
[00:01:20] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:01:21] Speaker A: I know there are things you cannot tell us, but is there something in particular that when it happens, you're like, well, today's gonna be an interesting day.
[00:01:29] Speaker B: Well, you know, that's usually the case in death, in, you know, war, which pretty much happens every day. But, you know, in my role, the majority of our content goes to our editorial team. So I may see a few things, but the things that I see are the things that need to be seen, not just the every, like, oh, look, a beautiful testimony. I usually don't get to see that.
[00:01:55] Speaker A: You get the big, big stories.
[00:01:56] Speaker B: I get the things that are like, hey, FYI, this might affect stakeholders. Just wanted you to know.
[00:02:03] Speaker A: Yeah, okay, so what is it like? And again, I'm sure it's different, but, like, what is your day to day role look like?
[00:02:09] Speaker B: Yeah.
Oh, well, it's evolving. I mean, I've been in this role for less than a year, so I still feel like every day I'm waking up, like, lord, give me direction. Show me what's important. Show me what to.
So on most days, it starts with that. A prayer of submission and humility and direction. And then after that, on any given day, I'm interacting with my team. I'm interacting with our key stakeholders, be that board members or donors or people who are interested in partnering. On any given day, I've got 100 emails. I always feel inadequate on email. I just, I feel like I can never keep Up. And even when I clear my inbox, there's always something else. So there's some email or some communication and then someplace in there I have to remember to eat and remember to pause.
But what I appreciate about each day is that it's so different and that I get to interact both on the external and the internal pretty much every day.
[00:03:08] Speaker A: Oh, that's cool.
[00:03:09] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:03:09] Speaker A: Now, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that you are the first woman and the first person of color to lead at this level. Isn't that right?
[00:03:16] Speaker B: That's correct, yes. And only the second herald out of like six.
[00:03:20] Speaker A: That is so exciting. How did you even decide, like, hey, I want to go for this role.
[00:03:26] Speaker B: Yeah. And I meant to say the second non herald. We had three heralds in our history. One Tim and then Nicole. Okay. I.
I know there are a lot of people that wake up and say, one day I'm going to be a CEO, one day I'm going to lead. Lead things. I think I've. I've never really had that dream and maybe I had it in my 20s and I just figured, oh, that's a lot.
So. So I always imagined myself as someone who could amplify the vision of others, who could amplify the dreams of others. So when this opportunity came and when my predecessor said, hey, I think you'd be great for this role, my immediate reaction was, no, not me. I don't know if I'm the right person. So I went through this process of six months of seeking God and putting out the fleece, like Gideon, Lord, is this really what you want me to do? Lord, is this really where you want me to go? And after a series of confirmations and conversations, that's when I realized it's not just I should go for this role. I do believe that God made this role for me and made me for this time.
So I'm living into that daily and every day. There are moments where I'm like, lord, are you sure?
But then there's, you know, shortly to follow that by his grace, God also says, yes, I'm sure. Keep going.
[00:04:36] Speaker A: Yeah.
Were there specific things, Were there blind spots or things that you knew, like you wanted to shift when you stepped into this level of authority?
[00:04:46] Speaker B: Oh, well, you know, I. Having served as the chief operating officer prior to taking this role, I kind of had an inside look on some systems that we needed to correct.
You know, some, some things that I knew we needed to change to become more efficient. So those were like the low hanging fruits part but as with any expedition, what you see on the outside of the forest is totally different from what you see when you walk in. And while I had all these lofty dreams and visions, I walked in and I was like, oh, my gosh, I may have known this organization, but knowing it from this seat is a different experience.
There are new joys that I didn't anticipate. There are new challenges that I didn't expect. And so I think while I have still the vision, the original vision that I believe God gave me for ct, which is to help people make sense of the world through a biblical lens, to create a space where people of various denominations and ethnicities and languages can all say, we are Christianity today. While I still believe, believe that is absolutely true, having kind of got my hands in, in less than a year, I recognize the process to get there is a bit more nuanced and a bit more complex than I anticipated.
[00:05:54] Speaker A: Yes, well, and I also would venture to say that you came at a time when Christianity is shifting and media is shifting. And so.
Right. Like, even if whatever you expected was going to happen.
[00:06:08] Speaker B: Thank you. That's exactly right. Exactly right. It's like you get at the top of the ship to kind of, you know, I was going to say drive the ship. Clearly, I do not know very much about boats, but follow me on the analogy. You know, it's like you take the wheel and you're like, we're just going to go straight and all of a sudden you feel the tug. Oh, my gosh. I thought we were going to go straight, but we have to go a little left to go straight. We have to go a little right to go straight. So I think that's what we're doing now. It's the calibration, it's the headwinds, it's recognizing this environment.
We have low media trust, we have low institutional trust. We have all kinds of challenges.
The speed of news. People don't go to a magazine or even a podcast for their news anymore. They're going to social media. They're going to all of these fast paced spaces. So it's pushing us to define who are we, who do we serve and what do we serve them with? That's what we're focusing on.
[00:06:58] Speaker A: Yeah, well, we're going to get into all of those things that you just kind of alluded to, because that's really what I want this conversation to be about is I think, you know, we all have our views of media, journalism, social media, whatever, from this side, but not many of us have it from your perspective. And so I'm hoping that by the end of this conversation, people might have a little bit of a better understanding of what it's like being the ones actually doing the reporting.
[00:07:24] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:07:25] Speaker A: You talked about how, you know, you wanted Christianity today to be able to bring all kinds of people together represented.
And Christianity today does a good job of telling the global church stories of the global church.
And I do, I will say that I've seen a noticeable increase in diverse voices over the past, I don't know, decade or number of years.
Do you think there are still perspectives that are underrepresented in Christian media?
[00:07:51] Speaker B: I mean, I think that's always the case. We're trying to do a real data driven approach to our audience to ensure that we know who we serve and we know who's missing and we know what those audience members need. This is active research right now, so I don't have all of the answers at this time, but what's unmistakable about C. T is we are evangelical. We are clear on our evangelical principles, on the importance of evangelism, on the centrality of Christ, on the authority of scripture, and on the importance of cultural witness. We're clear on those things. So when we say we are Christianity today and we want people to say that we're doing that from a centered set approach, we are clear on our convictions and we open the conversation to many people. I think where we not always been as clear is providing different views, politically providing different views on, you know, where a person sits on a particular topic. Sometimes CT has been perceived as giving the answer, but we want to be perceived as giving you the information to make your answer, to make your choice. So that we're not telling you what to think. We want to give you views on how you might think about a certain issue. Because evangelicals do not all think the same. We are not all the same. And we want to make sure that's represented.
[00:09:06] Speaker A: Okay. And I'm glad you said that. And I want you to lean into that more because that was going to be my next question. Is the word evangelical right now can be so triggering.
[00:09:13] Speaker B: I know for people.
[00:09:15] Speaker A: And we have people that are like, yes, I'm an evangelical because I believe in scripture and I believe in all of this stuff. And there are other people, Nicole, who believe the exact same things but are like, I will not wear the label of evangelical. And so I can only imagine on your board of diverse people that even there you've got like a varying array of what that looks like. So how do You. How do you deal with that? Right now? Just the term evangelical.
[00:09:44] Speaker B: I am so grateful you asked this question. I probably wrestle with this question several times a month.
[00:09:50] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:09:51] Speaker B: There are several decisions that we make. I mean, labels can hurt, and labels can elevate. Labels can kind of clarify, or they can create division. The reason why I'm sticking with the word evangelical, it's because it's a biblical term. We are people of the euangelion. We are people of the good news. If we rejected every term that was given to us when we wouldn't call ourselves Christian because the word Christian was a derogatory term. Now when I say evangelical, I say that with a lowercase e. We're saying we are biblically evangelical. Not politically so, not culturally. So, you know, there are. It's. It's a family of believers. And God knows there are some people in the family that were like, yeah, we're related.
[00:10:35] Speaker A: That's our weird uncle. We try.
[00:10:39] Speaker B: Thank you. But I just. I refuse to give up a term that was given to us by virtue of scripture to demonstrate what it means to carry the gospel into the world.
And, you know, contrary to what some may believe, I think our board is on the same page. We can be evangelical and sit at Catholic tables. We can be evangelical and sit with universalists and sit with rabbis and sit with those who may different views without losing any part of our conviction. Because to be evangelical does not mean to separate ourselves from the world. It means to engage in the world and be a part of this world and to bear witness in this world. And that's what we're trying to hold to.
[00:11:19] Speaker A: Yeah. And I love that you are like, hey, no, we are going to hold this label.
[00:11:24] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:24] Speaker A: And we're going to talk about what it is. Because, I mean, it was only just goodness. Like in the last year or a couple years, I know there was this movement of people going, well, I'm not calling myself a Christian anymore. Yeah. And I'm not gonna lie to you. I had. I'm a pastor. And I still was like, yeah, same.
[00:11:41] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:11:41] Speaker A: I'm a Jesus follower. And that's all you're gonna say about me.
[00:11:44] Speaker B: But, like, yeah, dumb. Do what I'm saying.
[00:11:47] Speaker A: I mean, I know dumb. I understand there are people that do that, but we have to. On one hand, I. I wanted to reclaim what being a Christian is. So I feel like maybe you feel the same way about the term evangelical.
[00:11:59] Speaker B: Yes, exactly. And it's who we are. Hard thing to reclaim. Because you recognize on any given Moment, the moment you say that or people identify you in that category, they make their assumptions. I would also say even if we got rid of the word evangelical, people are going to make their assumptions. So you cannot avoid the assumptions that people make. What you can do is live in such a way that causes people to question. Now, if I think this about that group of people, but I met this person and they're loving and kind and compassionate and understanding and nuanced.
Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I need to change. That's where we want to be.
[00:12:39] Speaker A: Yeah. What is Christianity Today doing to try to kind of combat that idea of like where people go, oh, well, they're evangelical, so I'm not listening to anything that they put out.
[00:12:49] Speaker B: Yes. Well, I figure, you know, as long as we can create content that makes multiple people mad at one time, then we're okay.
You know, you, you might look at CT's stories on immigration and some people will say, I'm going to put you in this camp because, you know, you dared to talk the, the ills of, of immigration systems and, and how it, you know, sometimes it's a little broken. And then you might read what we have to say about, you know, issues of sexuality. You may say, oh my gosh, I can't read them because they're so close minded. So as long as we are upsetting people on multiple sides, I, I feel like we're, we're in good Jesus territory. Okay, I like that. I like it.
[00:13:28] Speaker A: Do you think it's because our, our society right now, everything is just so like, you know, the algorithm is like rage, like get mad about something. And so even if you're not writing.
[00:13:37] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:13:39] Speaker A: To make people mad, are you still just seeing like the response of anger?
[00:13:43] Speaker B: Absolutely. And I think the challenge is our society is like, it's like a fire waiting to explode. We've got all these ingredients. We have deep division and polarization which causes us to demonize the other side. It's no longer I don't agree with you, it's if you believe anything opposite of me, then you're the enemy. You're the devil. You add to that just the instability of our times.
Technology has made us feel a little unstable. With the rapid advancement of AI, the, the world, the global climate, you know, physical climate and political climate gives us a bit of instability. You just never know whether you're going to have a drought, whether you're going to have rain, whether there's going to be a flood or a hurricane, whether there's going to be an Invasion of another country. So this instability creates a pot that's ready to explode. And I think that's where the anger comes from. It's not just I'm mad that you dare to talk about a view that's not mine. It's that I'm in this combustible space and anything that tips me in any direction is going to get the full wrath. So this is where I think we as believers have a unique space to embody the non anxious presence of God, to embody the clear witness of Jesus who says, in the last days you will have trouble. I mean, Jesus, he prophesied very clearly about the last days. So if we believe it, then the question to us is how do we show up here in a way that's different from this anxious, combustible society in which we live?
[00:15:13] Speaker A: Yeah. Do you think that there's anything in particular? I'm sure there are a lot of things you said, all the ingredients that kind of led, I mean, even us, like you said as Christians, to live in this bubbling pot just the same as, you know, non believers in the world.
[00:15:31] Speaker B: That's right. I, I think there's too many factors to point to when I think about, like what I see. Personally, I was reading several articles about this lately. There are some really good ones in several different pockets. You know, the free press has been talking about it, New York Times is talking about it in nearly every place on the spectrum somebody's talking about. This is a disorienting time.
And I think while there may be maybe one or two things we could point to, I think in general it's just the spiritual cadence toward the return of Christ. Now again, that might sound super evangelical for somebody who's listening, but this is the predicted way of humanity until Christ returns. And I think if we were to sit down and really talk with sociologists or with historians, we may say, well, it's definitely, I don't know, the climate, or it's definitely the politics, or it's definitely the world powers. Sure. But it's also what God said would happen. And again, I keep pointing to, all right, Lord, if this is true, and I believe it is, what is your call for me today? What is your call for us right now? How do we bear witness to the hope of Christ when things around us are starting to look more and more hopeless? That's the question we have to answer for ourselves.
[00:16:49] Speaker A: Yeah. What do you think the answer is? What would you encourage people like, because if we can't, we can't say how we got Here again, you're right. Like, there's a thousand reasons, so many.
But how do we then begin to fix and start acting like Jesus in the world? Like, how do we start to live as people with hope?
[00:17:07] Speaker B: Yes. Amen. Thank you for asking that question. So I've been asking God myself. The first thing is we need to become people of serious and intentional prayer. Not prayer in the car on the way to pick up the kids, which I know I'm prone to do. And that prayer is really good, not just prayer while you're on your way to a meeting, which is a really good prayer and absolutely necessary. But this is the Mark 1 kind of prayer. Mark 1. I think it's verses like 35 through 38 or so. Jesus steals away to pray and then Simon goes to him and says, jesus, everybody's looking for you. Like, where have you been? We've got work to do. The world is moving around you and you're off in the woods. Jesus says, all right, it's time to go. It's time to go to another city. We're going to minister there because this is why I've come. This Mark one prayer is Jesus seeking God intentionally so that he would know what to do. That's the kind of people we need to become. Then I go to Old Testament. I go to Ezekiel 3. I think it's around verse 8 where Ezekiel is told by God, I'm going to make your forehead like flint. Ezekiel is told, I'm going to make you resilient. I'm not going to let you turn and sway to the whims of the people and to the whims of culture. I'm going to make you so steadfast in my word that you won't be phased when hardship comes. That's what we need to be, that kind of resilience. I could go on and on, but I think God is calling us to a new level of faith, a new level of prayer, and a new level of resilience that will help us to maintain hope filled, brilliant witness for Christ in a time that is dark and hopeless.
[00:18:42] Speaker A: Yeah, and I mean, you said it multiple times. It's. Where are we turning to, right? Are we turning to prayer? Are we turning to God?
Or are we just turning to whatever platform is going to let us have a hot take? Like, I think that's part of the issue. Listen, I love social media, I love media, but I think part of the issue is that we are not taking things to God first. Yes. Not processing first.
[00:19:03] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:19:04] Speaker A: We're just Spouting things out and then going like, you know, in the name of Jesus, yada, yada.
[00:19:09] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:19:10] Speaker A: Or not even attaching it to the name of Jesus, but still as believers, just having all these, like, hot takes and reactivity.
[00:19:16] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:19:18] Speaker A: Instead of letting the Holy Spirit go, like, hey, like, put that one in the drafts for a minute, like, sit with it.
[00:19:24] Speaker B: And, you know, to be honest, I think I'm a. You know, I'm clearly a Gen Xer, so I'm betraying myself here. But I think the age of instant message has messed up our prayer lives.
We are so. We're waiting for God to show us the little bubbles, the dot, dot, dot, like he's about to speak, you know, and waiting to hear from God takes time. Time that we feel like we don't have, time that we're not disciplining ourselves to actually wait for. So it's not. What I'm suggesting is not easy. But I also think it's necessary to develop that muscle of waiting for God to speak and being willing to say, hey, I need a little bit more time before I can tell you the direction or before I can tell you exactly what we're going to do. And really being clear that when God speaks, you will hear him. And even in that space, God's grace is sufficient for you to be able to hear and to act on what God is saying.
[00:20:16] Speaker A: Well, and you said it's a discipline, right. It's a muscle. The only way we can do this is by practicing it 100. And so it's even that, like, we're like, yeah. Not only do we want God to answer our prayers, but we also want our transformation to happen.
[00:20:29] Speaker B: Yes, please, Lord,
[00:20:33] Speaker A: I'm ready to listen. I'm ready to know.
[00:20:34] Speaker B: Okay, tell me.
[00:20:35] Speaker A: Go.
[00:20:35] Speaker B: Like, right now. The portal is open for five minutes.
[00:20:40] Speaker A: Do it now, God, because I got things to do.
[00:20:43] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:20:46] Speaker A: If you've ever felt caught somewhere between certainty and cynicism, I know you find yourself asking questions like, okay, but how do I know what's actually true? How do I know what's worth holding on to when people disagree on what is right? While I won't promise to give you all of the answers, answers, those questions are the reason that I wrote the book the Other side of how to Follow Jesus. When easy answers no longer work, it's about having enough confidence in who God is and in who you are in him, to ask honest questions, let go of what's no longer working, and discover that your faith was never meant to be Rooted in what you knew or did. Right. I'd love for you to grab a copy using the link in the show notes or picking it up wherever you like to get your book.
We talked about media, media and journalism. You know, it's changed a lot.
And I know Christianity today is now present across like a variety of platforms.
[00:21:42] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:21:43] Speaker A: So I'm curious, Nicole, what are your thoughts on people getting more and more news from social media or quick sound bites as opposed to long form articles or. Yeah, old school news broadcasts.
[00:21:56] Speaker B: That's right. We wrestle a lot with that internally because, you know, the appetite for very long stories is getting smaller and smaller. People want things quickly. So I think it's a combination of both. On the one hand, our reputation is built on credibility. Every time we do surveys for CT on the brand, what we hear back from people who are subscribers and non is that CT can be trusted. Whether they agree with us on issues is, you know, up to them, and it depends on the topic. But by and large, 90% of those we've asked said CT can be trusted. So we lean into that credibility and we allow our audiences to get a little flavoring of everything. So on a podcast you might get a long form storytelling for, you know, eclipse of 30 minutes. On a print article, you might get something that's a little longer than you would read online, but online you might get something that's a little shorter and on social media, even shorter than that. So I think what society is showing us now is people want what they want, but they want it in different sizes. Sometimes you do want to sit down and read a longer story. Sometimes you just don't have time. So our job is to make sure we provide a variety of formats across platforms and not just stick to one way and force people to assimilate.
[00:23:10] Speaker A: Yeah, so do you take like certain topics to certain, you know, like there. Are there some things that really need the long form or is the goal more like. Whatever the issue is, we're going to put it in every platform, in every level.
[00:23:25] Speaker B: This is where I trust the expertise of my editorial team and media teams.
What I have experienced and what I've witnessed even in my short time, is they do just that. They take the story and determine what's the best platform for this story. In some cases, this story needs to be talked about across platforms because of its impact and it needs to be broken up in different ways. I think when we fast forward to a future with ct, maybe even this time next year, we'll see more of that same story, different Platforms, different takes and different angles. I think we'll also see there are some stories that only need one perspective. When there's a flood in Nepal, you just need to know, what can I do? How can I pray? How can I support? What is God calling me to say? And what implication does it have on my life? That's one story doesn't need a lot of angles. But say a politician dies, or say that there's a legal decision that's come down, or say, you know, there's something that's a bit more contentious. In that case, we want to make sure we have varying perspectives from evangelicals who think different ways. And maybe they're not even evangelical, but we want to do more of expanding a larger table of discussion on issues where there's a little. Where faithful Christians disagree and creating space for critical stories like the flood to be kind of maximized across platforms so that everybody is clear. We think this is important.
[00:24:48] Speaker A: Yeah. What's your criteria for kind of vetting or deciding, like, who gets to quote, unquote, speak for CT or at CT versus, like, yeah, you know, different perspectives. But still, there's gotta be some. Gotta be a boundary.
[00:25:05] Speaker B: Yes. There have to be boundaries. And I mean, part of the boundary is the fact that we say that we are biblically evangelical. That kind of creates a boundary in and of itself. There was a time when C T said we're only for and by evangelicals. But because of what we've talked about already, we can't necessarily do that. There are some really great faithful biblical people who would never use that term.
So for us, it really depends on the topic. When it comes to, you know, pro life issues, we may talk to people who are affiliated with an organization. We may talk to mothers. We may talk to people of a variety of views. So I think a topic like that would require a broader net of voices. But when it comes to theological issues, when it comes to issues of Bible interpretation, when it comes to issues of, even in some cases, book reviews, we do tend to err. Who are the biblical experts, who are the theological experts, and who are people within the networks of CT that we can reach out to in the future? We need to establish a clearer criteria. I get people reaching out all the time. What can I write? How can I write? And at this time, it's just submit your ideas. Send us a pitch to ideasristianity.comtoday.com. that's my small pitch. If you have an idea that you want to send to CT, it's ideaschristianitytoday.com we are inundated with ideas, so it might take a while to get back to you. But rather than to exclude, we want to keep that space open to those who know who CT is and say, yeah, I want to submit an opportunity to write, and then we go from there.
[00:26:40] Speaker A: I love that.
Well, another thing that I think I'm seeing often, especially again in the last couple years, is this idea of if you platform an idea, a person, if you say something, if you give this perspective, well, then that clearly means that you align with them and you.
[00:26:58] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh.
See, now I have to, like. I don't even need to finish.
You don't even need to finish. Oh, my God.
[00:27:05] Speaker A: You got it. All right, go.
[00:27:08] Speaker B: So we had. I've had numerous challenges with this, and. And in part, it's my fault.
I assumed. I assumed that we had a cultural bandwidth, a cultural tolerance to understand that just because a person wrote for CT doesn't mean that we endorse that person's life, their ideas, their voting patterns, their neighborhood, and the things they buy at the grocery store. But apparently that's how people think. And it drives me crazy, because if you go back to our previous conversation, there are some topics that require a broad range of voices. And just because we're getting perspectives from a broad range of people who are speaking into this topic does not mean we sign off on everything they say and do.
Oh, I just. It is so frustrating to me. It is just so frustrating. I'm like, can we. There's a level of maturity that says I need to hear from voices who are different from myself so that I can grow.
And I want to see C. T. Help to shape a culture of people who will say, I don't. That that guy voted differently for me. But I. I will hear him on that issue because actually, he's got something good to say. We're just not there yet. Our. Our separation and our distinction and our camp mentalities have caused us to believe that if you promote somebody who is not from my camp, even though they agree with what I believe, if you promote that person, then I'm canceling you. Oh, it drives me crazy.
That drives me crazy. I don't know what to do with that. Maybe you can give me some advice on how to handle that. That is.
[00:28:51] Speaker A: I don't know if I can. I don't know if I can actually, like you said, it's a level of maturity, right? Of being able to go, hey, I can't. I mean, I even think back to when I was growing up Christian. And you know, you can't read certain authors and you can't listen to certain Christian music. And it was like this idea or the idea of like that by osmosis.
[00:29:14] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:29:14] Speaker A: Whatever this person believed was going to like be sucked into my brain.
And all of a sudden I was no longer going to have any agency over what I thought or chose to believe. So it's just like, make sure you don't read anything by them.
[00:29:28] Speaker B: I know, I know.
[00:29:30] Speaker A: When really back to what you said at the beginning, like, understanding someone else's perspective, whether or not I choose to agree with them, helps me to understand what I believe and why.
[00:29:41] Speaker B: 100%. 100%. And this is why I think that seems like a no brainer to me. But I recognize maybe that's a really unique thing. So when I say, you know, when we first started talking about this vision of creating a space where all these different people would say, we are Christianity today, you know, the question was asking me like, but what if I don't want to be in the room with that person? What if I don't want to identify with that person? What if you've chosen a person there that doesn't look like me, sound like me, or carry my beliefs and you're inviting them into the space? I'm like, honey, get ready for heaven because I can promise, promise you. Biblically speaking, Jesus said, I have sheep that you know not of. There will be people in glory that you would say, how dare that person be in the same room with me? So let's practice. And I'm not suggesting that you make room for blasphemy. I'm not suggesting that you would sign off on somebody who is clearly living a lifestyle that is the antithesis of everything we stand for. I'm not suggesting that. And, and even with CT's history, I think there are, are absolutely times where maybe we've platformed the wrong person. And there are absolutely times where we wrote something from someone and then they did something stupid and we were like, man, doggone it, we just published them. Why in the world? So that aside, I recognize asking people to have a tolerance to stay in the room even when they don't agree is a really hard ask. And that suggests to me that what we're asking ourselves to do is not just create content. We're trying to shape a culture of believers who will say, you know, we're not on the same view on what we think about, I don't know, women's roles in church, but let's go have dinner. Because at least we believe Jesus is coming back. Like, can we. Can we get to that place? But I think it's going to take some work and also some deep breathing on my part.
He says, help us.
[00:31:34] Speaker A: Yes. Well, it really is.
You know, I just go back to that scripture of, like, always have an answer for, like, why you believe, the hope for what you believe.
[00:31:43] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:31:44] Speaker A: And I think a lot of Christians don't actually have an answer.
[00:31:48] Speaker B: Ah, see, that's part of it. And maybe that's why it's easy to accept the group think. And the group think is like, the parts of the things that your camp believes that makes you hate the other side. Maybe it's easy to believe that because you really don't know what the Bible says and you don't know what Jesus says about that particular issue.
That's a very good point. I think you're right.
[00:32:11] Speaker A: And I wouldn't even say that it's. I'm not even, like, putting people at fault.
[00:32:15] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:32:16] Speaker A: I truly believe that there are a lot of Christians today that are like, well, I believe the thing I'm doing, the thing I said, the thing I go to church. I. Whatever. And so, like, I'm good. I got it. And I would say you're good. Like salvation. You got it.
[00:32:29] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:32:29] Speaker A: But also, maybe you're still, like, on milk and not solid food, even though you think you are.
[00:32:36] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:32:36] Speaker A: Is that just an acceptance of blind belief? That's. It is not a true understanding of what faith.
[00:32:43] Speaker B: Thank you.
And this is where the critical role of the pastor enters in. I mean, I. I sit obviously alongside the church at ct. We want to amplify the church in this new season like we've never done before. We want people to recognize the redemptive power of Christ at work in the church. But it takes a pastor who's willing to say to a congregation, let's grow up together. Not, I'm only going to preach the things that make you feel good. Not, I'm only going to preach the things you agree with, but I'm going to actually preach the word of God, which means sometimes you're going to feel convicted by the Holy Spirit. Sometimes you're going to be pushed outside of your comfort zone. If we can get pastors to do that, then it actually makes the job of C. T easier. Because my pastor has taught me to go to the word. My pastor has taught me to understand that God works in and through people. I would never expect. So therefore, I can listen to ct. I can. I can Be a part of a CT community because I understand the value of God's word from my pastor. That's where we need.
[00:33:43] Speaker A: Yeah. And because I. And also understanding the humanity of my pastor.
[00:33:48] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:33:48] Speaker A: And also then take what they say.
[00:33:51] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:33:52] Speaker A: And discern with the Holy Spirit of, like, how do we feel about this?
[00:33:58] Speaker B: Do you realize that's not common. That is not common in today's.
[00:34:02] Speaker A: Should be.
[00:34:03] Speaker B: It should be. This is why I'm glad you're pastoring. Because by and large, we, we. It is an easy default of the pastor and I'm a preacher's kid, so I love pastors and I thank God for pastors and I respect the call of the pastorate, which I think is the hardest call in the earth still today.
I also think that it's just easy for pastors to say, trust me in my word.
Trust what I'm saying to you. Trust me as the biblical authority in your life, as opposed to a harder message, which is, here's what I'm saying to you, and here's what I believe the Bible says. But I want you to look for yourself. I want you to hear God for yourself. I dare say I want you to hold me accountable to the Word.
That is a rare discipline in a pastor. And I hope we have more of it. But I, I. It's hard to find today.
[00:34:48] Speaker A: Yeah. And it does require. I mean, again, back to that, like, not just an ease of blind belief, but going as people sitting in a pew, whatever, wherever you are on a Sunday morning, I'm going to do my own. I'm going to open that Bible myself.
[00:35:01] Speaker B: Amen.
[00:35:02] Speaker A: I'm gonna take the guidance of the pastor. I'm gonna listen, but also I'm gonna know context and understand and dig in
[00:35:08] Speaker B: and yes, agree there's otherwise.
[00:35:11] Speaker A: You don't know what the red flags are. You don't know.
[00:35:13] Speaker B: That's it.
[00:35:14] Speaker A: If you don't know, you don't know.
[00:35:15] Speaker B: Then you can sit in a church that might not even be Bible believing or might have a really toxic culture or might be continually preaching falsehood and you wouldn't even know it because it sounds good and the music is good and my friends go here.
Yeah.
[00:35:30] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:35:31] Speaker B: It's. We're living in a time when we really do need true discipleship. And I think it takes the whole body of Christ, the church, the parachurch, everybody, to help us grow in faith. Because if not, then we're just going to be what. What the scripture says in the New Testament. We're just going to be tossed to and fro by the whims of our own desires and. And gather for ourselves teachers that are teaching falsehoods, but give us what our itching ears want to hear.
God forbid that we promote that. We actually need to help people hear what maybe they don't want to hear, but what God says.
[00:36:03] Speaker A: Yeah. Amen.
[00:36:05] Speaker B: Amen. Amen.
[00:36:09] Speaker A: Well, let me ask you. I know we kind of like got on a side with the church, but it is both for the church and media and journalism.
I'm curious what advice you would give to people of trying to discern, again, like, how they know what is true. Yes. In an era especially where I'm going, to be honest, the news and journalism can feel less and less trustworthy.
[00:36:28] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, you're absolutely right. Trust in media is continually declining on a regular basis. And the more we find out, like, who's behind media, the more distrustful we become.
Who's buying, buying you out and who are your donors? And so it's kind of hard. I think the best that we can do is study the word of God for ourselves. It is as simple as that.
And the capacity to take in news has to come through that, the filter of God's word. That just reminds me. Okay, so one moment for a tangible example, our latest issue of Christianity Today has my favorite picture of Billy Graham on it. But I want you to pay attention to what he's doing.
At the center is his Bible.
Around him are newspapers and, oh, by the way, for those of you young people, that right there is called a radio.
People would turn it on and tune to a station and it would be crackly until you found an actual station.
But this, to me, is the. The visual example of what every believer is called to do. You need your Bible front and center, and then you need your sources of news so that you are aware of what's happening in the world. This is what causes us to be like the sons of Issachar who understand the times. They understand the times not just from what's happening in the world, but but through the lens of the Bible. This is why our mission in this new season is helping people make sense of the world through a biblical lens. Because if you're just trying to make sense of the world by listening to all of your different news outlets, you will be confused. But if you look through the lens of Scripture, now you're saying, all right, God, what do I do with this input? What do I do with this perspective? How do I put these pieces together to make a framework that makes sense according to your word. That's, I think, the most important thing that we can do.
[00:38:12] Speaker A: Well, it's gotten even trickier because there are media outlets that are taking scripture out of context.
[00:38:21] Speaker B: Oh, Lord. Yes.
[00:38:22] Speaker A: And laying it over things that do not look or sound like Jesus.
[00:38:26] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:38:27] Speaker A: And so it's not even that easy where we can't even just go, oh, like words of Jesus. We're going to believe this.
[00:38:31] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:38:33] Speaker A: What would you say is the difference between discernment and suspicion? Because, like, there's a lot of. We lead to a lot of conspiracy theory, right?
[00:38:43] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I've learned that the trade of journalism requires a certain level of suspicion.
We always approach any story with what's missing here. What are you not telling me? What's the angle? What's your. What are you. What. How do you profit from this? Because that helps us to get the story beneath the story. Often when we get a story, it's never really the story. It's the story beneath the story. Nobody wants to know. There was a flood in Nepal. We know that. Tell me the story beneath the story. Why weren't people warned? How do we prevent something like that? Where are the rescue? You know, it's just a small example. I think the difference is a skepticism that points you closer to Christ is always worthwhile. A skepticism that makes you doubt God's work in humanity, doubt God's work in the world is a skepticism that ought to be questioned. So if you're. If your route of skepticism and asking questions leads you to, all right, Jesus, where are you really? What are you really trying to say? What is really at stake here? Then that might be a really healthy skepticism. But if your skepticism leads you to, yeah, but was that person really healed? And, you know, and. And can God really heal? And is healing still a thing? Then you might want to question that. That. Because asking about somebody's testimony is one thing. Questioning whether or not God can move is a totally different thing. And. And I would also say I've seen in my own life, a healthy skepticism helps me see more of God. I love reading scripture with a healthy skepticism. Like, all right, so. All right, so Ruth is found, you know, in Boaz's field. Okay, fine. All right, so he leaves a little bit of extra sheath so that she can pick them up. Okay, fine. But. But what was she really hoping for, you know, and where was he standing? And was he really checking her out while she was in the field?
That kind of skepticism leads you to ask questions that only God can answer, and then you get to a revelation, you're like, oh my gosh, how amazing is God? That I think is the kind of skepticism that leads us to good discernment. But it's situational. I mean, sometimes we don't know until we ask.
[00:40:57] Speaker A: Right, right. Well, and I think any a skepticism too, that's like, well, no, this is for me, but not for you. Yeah, skeptical of this for you. It's cool for me.
[00:41:06] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:41:06] Speaker A: That also is, that's kind of, isn't it?
[00:41:09] Speaker B: That's a little problematic.
I mean, these are great things to think about because we have to think not just of ourselves, but of the next generation. You know, my kids can discern AI faster than I can, to my chagrin. Right. I, it is inevitable. I have an 11 year old and 13 year old. It's inevitable.
I'll see some video and I'm like, oh, how cool is that? Look at this and I'll show them. They're like, mom, that's fake. That's AI. So thank God for the skepticism they have that is informed by how they've been raised. The question for me is how do I disciple that level of, of skepticism that says, and I want you to carry that, that into every other place of your life and ask the question, is it true? And the litmus test is the word of God. Use God's word to make you skeptical of everything, to ask the question, is it true? So that you can go back to the word of God and find out whether or not it is biblically true. It's, it's something that I want to wrestle with. And now that you've asked the question, I'm going to continue to wrestle with it.
[00:42:08] Speaker A: Great.
[00:42:09] Speaker B: Thank you very much.
[00:42:10] Speaker A: You're welcome. I also think there's a piece of learning to trust the Holy Spirit within ourselves.
[00:42:14] Speaker B: Yes, that. Yes.
[00:42:16] Speaker A: For a lot of us raised in the, you know, 80s and 90s, we did not have, have that.
[00:42:20] Speaker B: No.
[00:42:20] Speaker A: And so that's something too, that I think really is key when it comes to discernment is. Yes. Understanding scripture, but also trusting that.
[00:42:28] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:42:29] Speaker A: When we feel weird about a thing.
[00:42:31] Speaker B: Yes. Like, yes, yes,
[00:42:36] Speaker A: we can trust it.
[00:42:37] Speaker B: And there's, you know, when I was in seminary, I was a part of a Methodist church. I'm actually a part of a Methodist church now. And part of the Methodist framework for hearing God is like the fourfold framework. It's the Holy Spirit, it's scripture, it's tradition, and it's community.
And I think we can lean on all those things. What traditionally have people said about things like this. What is my community of faith speaking about this? What is the Holy Spirit saying to me uniquely? And what does God's word say? Those are the elements of discernment that we kind of need to revisit as often as possible.
[00:43:04] Speaker A: Yeah, well, Christianity Today talks also often about like the beauty and the brokenness of the church.
[00:43:11] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:43:11] Speaker A: And so I'm curious what you're seeing right now. If there is something easy to go like, well, this is the beauty I see in the church right now and this is the brokenness that needs to be addressed.
[00:43:21] Speaker B: Oh, so much.
There's so much you can go on for days about the beauty of the church because the church is the bride of Christ.
What I see now, I was just reading an article that we published this morning about a person who is pulling people together in faith through prayer in a detention center.
What I see about the beauty of the church is the church has the capacity to bring light in deep darkness.
We have stories of churches in prisons and we have stories of churches that are developing in deeply impoverished neighborhoods and communities. We have stories where the church is becoming an open door when every other door was closed for people to come in and find Christ. We have stories of a friend of mine who was at an AA meeting and sensed was told, you have to believe in a higher power. And so she Googled on her phone, church near me. And this is, she's overcoming alcoholism. Google's church near me got there at 7pm the church happened to be open. Walked to the front of the church and said to the pastor leading a Bible study, I need Jesus in my life. Can you help me? That is like, this is where the church shines. The church has the capacity to be the light in darkness. The challenge of the church is the fact that the church is made up of people.
My dad, again, my dad was a pastor and he was like, like ministry is so wonderful. It's the people that's hard.
As long as God chooses people to lead his church, there will always be brokenness. There will always be self centeredness in the church. There will always be betrayal in the church. There will always be abuses of power in the church because there will always be an attraction of certain spirits to what they think is a platform for themselves. What was really intended to be a platform of God. And it breaks my heart like, God, why did you choose to run the church with people? Why couldn't you just holler in the spirit and just, you know, have us?
[00:45:20] Speaker A: Is this your best idea?
[00:45:21] Speaker B: You know, seriously, like, why Would you invest the word in Moses knowing that he was going to get mad and strike the rock, knowing that he was going to break the first commandments? Come on, Lord. Like, there has to be another way.
And yet God, in his grace, chooses people. So people, I think, have the capacity to bring that light, and that brings me great joy. And people have a lot of darkness within themselves. And so our job at CT is not to shy away from the darkness, but to always show that even in darkness, there is a redemptive light. And that's what I'm pushing the team to do. Now, how do we tell even a hard story in a way that points us to the light? And I confess, we haven't always done that well. Well, we haven't always done that well. Sometimes we've delighted in the darkness, but I think it's a time that we can delight in the light and let that be the story.
[00:46:07] Speaker A: Well, I'm going to push you. I'm going to have to go one, one level deeper for the last question for you here, which is what I ask everyone. So in the vein of everything that you just said about the church, because the podcast is called Becoming Church. Yes. How can the people listening become the church to the people around them?
[00:46:24] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh.
Oh, so many ways. And I. I am so grateful for the name of this podcast, because it's not. We've already become. It's a process of becoming.
I think we can become the church by becoming more like Christ in ways that are tangible and tactical. And I think our day, our context, requires the deep nuance of Christ.
We need to be the Christ that is willing to walk into situations where what is happening around us is so not like God that it require us to turn a few tables. We need to be the God that says to our nieces, our nephews, and to the next generation. I know that you think this is your identity. I know that you think this is the best way to live your life, but in the name of Jesus, I declare peace over you. I declare joy over you. I declare wholeness over you. And I declare that you are made in the image of God and not in the image of the world. And that's turning the table in their lives. We need to be that kind of. Kind of church. We also need to be the kind of church that's willing, like Jesus, to sit with the children to say, no, no, no, don't push those people out. They don't. These are children. They are infants in their belief. They are infants in their space of Life, let them come unto me. In fact, unless you become like them and release what you think you know about me, then you can't get in either. We need to be the church that's, like, infantile in our willingness to recognize we don't have all the answers, but devoted in our persistence to just come to Jesus. When I think of the children that came to Jesus, I think about when my girls were little and we'd walk through the grocery store and they would tug me in a certain direction toward the sweet cereals. I was like, no, no, no, no, we're not gonna do that. But we need to be like those little children that tug the world in the direction of Jesus. Like, what? What's he doing? Who is he? How brilliant is Christ? Oh, my gosh, do you see how God can heal and transform? And the same God that did it biblically is the same God that does it today.
I think we also, in the vein of my talking, I feel like we need to be a witness of the passion of Jesus. Like, Jesus was not sitting back saying, hey, guys, I'm the way, the truth, and the life. If you want to come, if you want.
No, hey, if you don't want to, no. He had passion. He had persistence. He was willing to show up in the midst of death and proclaim life. He was willing to show up in darkness and proclaim light. And. And I think becoming the church means becoming a passionate people who are not afraid to say to the Uber driver, you know what? Let me tell you about the God I know. Or to the cashier, you have such a beautiful smile and it looks like you have the light of Jesus in you. Or to say to the teacher, thank you for loving our kids because God loves you and that love pours through you and our kids. I pray that we can become that way. And I'm gonna stop preaching. Cause I could talk about this all time the day, but man, like, home, I love it. The world needs the church. The world needs the church.
[00:49:24] Speaker A: Yes. Yes.
[00:49:25] Speaker B: So do whatever it takes to become the church for the world.
[00:49:27] Speaker A: Oh, amen. Well, thank you. Thank you for being here. Thank you for your work at ct, for including so many different voices and. And trying to genuinely, truly, like, reach all people. I think that's so important.
[00:49:40] Speaker B: Thank you so much for the work you're doing on mc. Excited.
[00:49:45] Speaker A: As listeners of Becoming Church, you probably already understand the importance of hearing differing perspectives. It's one of the main reasons this podcast exists, because I want to help you understand what the options are so you can choose one with discernment and you can be confident in what you believe because you understand why you believe it.
I actually feel so strongly about this that I also wrote a book about it. My my book, the Other side of Certainty, is available now everywhere. Books are sold, and the feedback is that it's doing just that. It's helping people trade blind belief for the mystery and wonder of what faith in Jesus can actually be. I would love for you to read it, or to share a copy with someone whose faith feels complicated and isn't really even sure of what they believe anymore. Until next time, thanks so much for listening and keep becoming the church of the people around. Up to.
