Episode Transcript
[00:00:09] Speaker A: Welcome to Becoming church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristen Machler Young, and my guest today is Lovelyn Palm. She doesn't have a book coming out, and she's not doing any kind of media tour, but she does have a really incredible story that I got to hear firsthand from her a few months ago. Now, this is a story that she hasn't shared publicly before, but she agreed to share it with us on becoming church, and I know there's a reason for that. That reason being that one of you listening needs to hear it. So without any further ado, here's my conversation with my friend love.
All right, lovelyn, welcome to the podcast. How are you doing today?
[00:00:55] Speaker B: Good. I'm doing great. Thanks for having me.
[00:00:57] Speaker A: Awesome. So excited to have you. Now it is summer. It is officially summer. What is summer like where you are in, like, Indiana, Chicagoland area.
[00:01:08] Speaker B: Okay. So summer comes, and I feel like we all wake up and remember life is not terrible. I think winter is a really hard season for a lot of people here, and you start to think it's just you. But warm day comes and you're like, I'm alive. I can do this.
[00:01:28] Speaker A: I totally get it.
[00:01:30] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:01:30] Speaker A: I think the reason my husband tells me all the time, he's like, kristin, I don't know anybody who is as affected by the weather as you are, but I think it's because I grew up in the midwest, and so I just get sucked back into the light, cold and gray and so same. When summer comes, I'm like, let's do all the things. Let's be outside all the time.
[00:01:49] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:01:51] Speaker A: Well, we're going to get into your story. You have a really interesting and unique story of different experiences that you've had and things, but give people just kind of a general, broad overview of life right now, who you are, what you're doing.
[00:02:07] Speaker B: Okay, so, life right now. My husband and I have been married for 22, 22 years.
We moved here to Valpo when we got married. So we've lived here all of our married lives. We have eleven children, our oldest 22, our youngest is eight. And then we fill in all those gaps in between.
I run a nonprofit in Uganda is what I do with most of my time. And then I love doing content creation online, just sharing some of our story and about joyful motherhood and what God's done in my life and our travels and things like that.
[00:02:49] Speaker A: Yeah. Awesome. And we're going to get into all of those things. People probably stopped their car. They're like, did she just say she has eleven kids?
Yes.
We're going to get into it. And you guys are building a new house, is that right?
[00:03:03] Speaker B: We are. We actually have. We're in the new house, but we're just finishing up a few things. Is a builder. This is the house we've dreamed of since we first got married. We've been building houses and then living in them for a couple years, selling them our whole married life. And so this was the goal the whole time. So it's really a sweet place that God has brought us to actually be in now.
[00:03:26] Speaker A: Oh, that's so exciting. All right, so you and Matt, let's just get into your story. You were married in. So I guess that would have been 2002.
[00:03:34] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:03:35] Speaker A: And then you had five kids, is that right?
[00:03:39] Speaker B: Kind of. We had.
[00:03:42] Speaker A: Or four. Like, tell me. You start this right, okay.
[00:03:46] Speaker B: So we had four little girls and five.
[00:03:49] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:03:50] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:03:50] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:03:50] Speaker B: But we had four really young little girls. It was wonderful. I love baby stage.
[00:03:57] Speaker A: Me too.
[00:03:58] Speaker B: Birth is amazing. The way God has designed our bodies and then just to, to have those little creatures, like, depend on you, it's like the best thing in the world, watching them grow. So we had four really little girls in five years.
[00:04:12] Speaker A: Okay. And then when Bianca. Right, she was the youngest at the time, when she was six weeks old, I think then you guys decided, like, hey, we don't have enough going on. Like, our hands are not full. Let's apply for adoption. Right?
[00:04:28] Speaker B: Right. Yes. A lot of people said to us, I remember over and over, anytime I was out, oh, well, your hands are full. And they literally like, to help me with something. But honestly, I started saying to not as full as my heart. And it's true. Like, it was so fun. But we did. Bianca was six weeks old, and Matt and I kind of looked at each other and we're like, this is crazy. And if we were serious about that adoption thing that we talked about when we were dating, like, let's go, because we don't want to do this now and then have this huge gap and another round of this little kid craziness and kind of like, are we in or not? And we were in, so our home study when Bianca was six weeks old.
[00:05:20] Speaker A: And so that really was the thinking, because I was like, what made y'all think that? Like, okay, now's the time to do it. But it was something that you'd talked about.
[00:05:27] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:05:27] Speaker A: Before, right? It was something that you and Matt had considered.
Is there adoption in your family history at all?
[00:05:35] Speaker B: There's not in mine. I was always open to it. I didn't really know anything about adoption, but I was open to it. And when I started dating Matt, it was something that we talked about pretty early on because it was him, he has from Korea, and they're okay. And that was something that he had always wanted. And so during our dating life, he was kind of like, are you open to this? So it was something that we talked about early.
[00:05:59] Speaker A: So, like, yeah, let's just do it. And I totally get that. I totally understand. Like, you know, and it's, it's always up to, I mean, parents and obviously God's timing, it's not like we can control it. But I feel like there's two camps of either I need to spread them out because I can only handle one at a time, or, and I was like, you. I was like, and I only have two, but I was like, just do it. Like, while we're in the baby phase, let's be in the baby phase.
So you guys had started your home study, and then you went to Uganda in fall 2009.
[00:06:31] Speaker B: Correct. So that, well, that's when he came home. So we started then. And then he came home. Yes, in fall 2009. So Clayton was 13 months old at that time, which made him three months older than Bianca, our youngest. So they were twins. They're called virtual twins.
[00:06:52] Speaker A: Is that something y'all made up?
[00:06:54] Speaker B: No, it's like that, yeah. Virtual twins are twins with it are kids in the same family that are within twelve months of each other. They weren't necessarily the same biological mom, but they're in the same family now. So they're virtual twins.
[00:07:09] Speaker A: Oh, that's cute.
[00:07:10] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:07:10] Speaker A: I know. And we will get to more twins that you have as well. So how did you know about Clayton? How did you know that he was there and available and needing a family?
[00:07:19] Speaker B: Yeah. So we had, when we started that home study, we did a lot of research, different places. We actually couldn't adopt domestically. That's where we started.
[00:07:30] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:07:31] Speaker B: We had too many young children. We wouldn't, the social worker wouldn't approve us for that.
I'm home all the time, and, you know, I can handle this. And so is there anyone that, any country that would, that children need a family? And so you began researching, and we were kind of narrowed down to Uganda and Guatemala as options that would, like, just allow us. So it was kind of like, where can we do this? And Guatemala actually closed at that point. And so we just began researching more towards Uganda, started seeking out families who had done it recently, and, like, is there a need? Because you never want to create, like, a need where there's not one.
[00:08:19] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:08:20] Speaker B: Kind of doing all the research, and ended up connecting with families who had recently adopted from Uganda, got connected with an orphanage and a lawyer there, and just started the process.
[00:08:32] Speaker A: Had you been to Uganda before?
[00:08:33] Speaker B: I hadn't. I had never left the country before.
[00:08:36] Speaker A: You are kidding me.
[00:08:37] Speaker B: No, never. So, yeah, then I left the country. The way it worked then, it's so, so different now. But you went to this orphanage, and you volunteered for several weeks, and during that time, they would decide if they wanted to match you with a child. And so I just left and went to Uganda and volunteered for a few weeks, and then God just worked everything else out.
[00:09:05] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh. So did they then shoot, like, was Clayton always kind of the child that they had in mind that they were watching you for? Or was it like, hey, we're just going to get to know Loveland, and then see what kid maybe fits that, that's in need of a family?
[00:09:18] Speaker B: Yeah. So usually that's the way it would work. Let's get to know this person, and then if we feel like they're after looking at their home study and getting to know them, then we'll match them. Okay.
Clayton actually happened to arrive at the orphanage the same day that I arrived there, which I didn't meet him for another two days, but looking back at the paperwork, that worked out the same, and he came from a different orphanage that was overcrowded. And so they, by their own words, they chose the four healthiest, fattest babies to move, and because they thought they would do the best and the same day. So it took some time. They didn't have a lot because we did have to have, per our home study, a younger child just because we had so many children. So they didn't have a lot of children to match us with, but we kind of waited out. Even when I left, I didn't know about Clayton because they were still trying to find family and do that investigation to see if he truly needed a family, but when. So I went home, and we waited, and then we eventually were matched with him.
[00:10:26] Speaker A: Okay, so then you brought Clayton home.
[00:10:28] Speaker B: Mm hmm.
[00:10:28] Speaker A: So then you had four girls. He was your first boy then, right?
[00:10:31] Speaker B: Mm hmm.
[00:10:32] Speaker A: Okay. And then a couple years later, you went back again.
[00:10:37] Speaker B: Yes, we went.
[00:10:39] Speaker A: This time you went as a nurse, is that right?
[00:10:41] Speaker B: Yes. So I was a registered nurse. I was working full time all the way. I cut down each time until Bianca.
[00:10:49] Speaker A: Okay, fair enough.
[00:10:51] Speaker B: And Matt's like, then just stay home with the kids. Blessed that we were able to do that at that time. Yeah, I was. I ended up in pediatric nursing, and I loved it.
I just loved being home with the kids more. And so we thought for that season, which it's stayed that season all the way through now, I would come home, but during that time, I was still practicing, and so I ended up on a medical mission trip with one of my best friends, going back to Uganda and doing some work there.
[00:11:23] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:11:24] Speaker B: And one of the places that we went to was an orphanage that actually her mother in law ran. Okay. We were really just. We weren't doing medical work there. We were just stopping through to, like, encourage her mother in law and see the orphanage and meet the kids and hang out and stuff.
But I happened to be the one to open the van door that day, and I opened the van door, and this little boy came running at me and, like, jumped into my arms, and he didn't have a shirt on. He, like, held his shirt out for me to put it on, and I don't know, I just felt something inside me.
Right.
But we had been in the adoption and vulnerable children's space world long enough to know, like, Loveland don't. Like, don't do. It's always best for children, their families, or that's a safe option. And a lot of kids, that's what they're doing. They're trying to reunite them with birth family.
Again. I'm not trying to create a problem where there's not one. So I'm like, slow down, loveland. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. You've left him already? Like, no, he's cute, and he needs.
[00:12:37] Speaker A: A hug, but, like, pump the brakes.
I'm here for work.
[00:12:42] Speaker B: Yeah, but my best friend, who knew her mother in law's orphanage and every, you know, the kids there, she had been there a lot, and she knew about them. She saw it all happen, and she just said to me, like, tell me when you're ready to, like, hear about him. And I was just like, does he need a family? Like, that's, like, what matters to me, and does he truly need a family?
And my friend said, yeah, yeah, he really does. And he has an older brother.
And I just immediately said, well, that must be my son, too. Where is he?
No.
So, okay, hold on.
[00:13:25] Speaker A: Were you able to talk to Matt at all during this? Like, this is maybe one of my favorite parts of your story is that you're just like, well, I guess they're both my sons now. And I was thinking about this the other day, and I was like, did she even. Did you even have a chance to talk to Matt? Or did you just, like, go home with two more kids?
[00:13:43] Speaker B: I did. I could talk to him. So I said, where is he? Like, point him out to me. The older kid, too. And so he pointed out to me Nico as well. And so I did. I called Matt after and I said, I don't. I don't know Matt. I know that we weren't planning this. I know. But all I know is that these two boys need a family. And, like, we have a family and we have more room and we can do this. Like, we can. We can be their family. And we were actually in the early stages of home study again. And so it's not like adoption was off our radar. Sure. We just. Our social workers told us again, you can't disrupt birth order. And so we were adopting domestically. Infants from the states is what was for. And so I just said, what? Can you talk to our social worker? Can you go tell her, like, we'll do the classes about birth order disruption? We'll do. We'll, you know, we'll take all the trainings that she recommends and whatever we need to do. And so there's a lot of God's story and other things that happened, but basically, I left on that trip, and we started working towards that. And about ten months later, Nico and Jude came home. Nico became our oldest, so he was ten at the time. He's 22 now. Ok.
Jude became our second set of twins, so he was five, and our third born girl, Ellie, was five at the time, too. So they're one month apart.
[00:15:17] Speaker A: So they're virtual twins.
[00:15:18] Speaker B: And he's. They're 17 now, so.
[00:15:21] Speaker A: Okay, talk to me about birth order, because I know there's a lot of people listening that maybe have a vague understanding of adoption or fostering. And we'll get. We'll get into it a little bit more at the end of our conversation here. But what does birth order have to do with whether or not you're approved for a kid that needs a family?
[00:15:42] Speaker B: Yeah. So there are real concerns about disrupting birth order in that adoption is always trauma. So even if you have the most wonderful, like, easy adoption in the world, like, it's always traumatic, their birth family is.
Even if. Even if they're an infant, that's trauma. So it doesn't matter what age, it doesn't matter how easy your process was. Like, it's trauma. And so then you add in anything else that's happened in that child's story that might be traumatic, that. To lead them to that space. And just a lot of times, they need a lot of extra care and a lot of just thought into how do we help them heal in the most healthy way. And so sometimes as older children and then coming in, sometimes there can be a power struggle. Sometimes it could be, like, time and I. Or things like that. So there are real concerns with it.
And it would. I would say, you know, God is overall, so definitely just, like, pray about it. And because our specific circumstances, we felt like we were comfortable moving forward. And eventually, our social worker and agency felt like that was okay, too.
[00:17:07] Speaker A: Okay. And so it really. It's about the kids that you're bringing into your family, but then also the kids, I guess, that are already there. Like, if the oldest child all of a sudden is not the oldest child, that that could be a trauma for that child that's already in your family as well, I guess, looking at birth order, right?
[00:17:24] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:17:25] Speaker A: Okay, interesting. See, I love these conversations because talking to people about things that I think a lot of listeners, we think that we kind of know and understand, but there's. It's so much more complex and nuanced than anybody could understand. So, thank you. I've already, like, I'm already taking notes over your love. I'm like, these are things that are important to know. All right, so you brought home Nico and Jude. So now you have seven kids.
[00:17:49] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:17:51] Speaker A: So what is it like, pausing right there? So now you've got essentially half biological kids and half adopted kids living in the States, correct?
[00:18:01] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:18:02] Speaker A: What was that experience like? I mean, already just being a very blended, different kind of family.
[00:18:09] Speaker B: Yeah. For us, it was really fun. It was so fun. It was. Nico and Jude are amazing kids. They always have been. They continue to be. And they were such, like everyone told us everywhere, oh, like, you're so blessed to be adopted. They would tell the kids that, and I'm like, I don't know. I hope someday they feel that way. I don't know. But, like, honestly, we were the ones that were more blessed. They were, like, so joyful, and it was so fun to learn life with them, the family. And so it was a really neat experience. And I think embracing that as a family did help our bonding and help not have struggles with that birth order stuff. It was fun for Chloe was our oldest before she's our oldest, it was fun for her to, like, teach her older brother about things and show him you know, how. How things worked and where they went to school and how to do life here and what our family was like. And so we really included everyone in that and made it, like, a team thing to.
To become a family. And it was.
[00:19:17] Speaker A: Well, and that's gonna strengthen bonding, not just with the kids that you brought over from Uganda, but, like, within your whole family as a unit, you know, that trust and, like you said, sense of team. And we're doing this together. We're all. We're all one. Now, you, because you mentioned, is there something in particular that.
And maybe not, but, like, off the top of your head, you're like, hey, don't say this to kids that are adopted. Is there, like, a thing that people tend to say? And you're like, oh, please stop saying this.
[00:19:46] Speaker B: Yes. So that is one of them, the one. You're so blessed. And I guess it's not. I mean, it's not the end of the world. I know all of these comments have come from, like, love and.
[00:19:57] Speaker A: Of course, of course.
[00:19:58] Speaker B: But when you. When you break it down a little more, it's like, it's not a blessing to be in a position where you needed a new family. Like, it's actually really hard and awful.
And so we have to be careful with what words we use. And so they are, if they're a bigger blessing to us than we are to them. And, you know, the other one, just off the top of my head, that's really, really difficult is people are so curious about their stories, about why they needed adoption. And I'm so thankful that God gave me that on my heart early on to be so fearful, fiercely protective of that, because my kids don't owe that to anyone. And their curiosity is not more important than my kids heart. And so as a reforming people pleaser, I found it really hard, but really important to say, oh, that's just not. That's just not something we share or, you know, and I had to come up and I had to practice. I would practice at home, like, saying that back to someone because it was so hard for me, but so important that my kids hear. And now they're able to do it because they still get asked. They get asked and they have to say, oh, like, that's not something that I share, I want to talk about. And so it was good practice for them, and I'm so glad that they've learned that.
[00:21:23] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, and again, thank you. Because I think, like you said, good intentions, right. People have the best of intentions, and sometimes when they don't know what to say. We just end up using the phrases or saying the things that we've heard other people say, not knowing that necessarily, like, it's not the best option. And so I think you just gave people, you know, hey, find a different phrase. Like, I know that you hear this often or think that this sounds good, but here's how it could actually come across. And I wonder if, too, there's just this. I don't know if stigma is the right word, but this idea of kids that are adopted, of like, oh, well, we just get to have their lives on display because they're so lucky to be here and now they're in this better place, when really, you wouldn't ask other people, like, hey, tell us about your traumatic history and past. You know what I'm saying?
[00:22:12] Speaker B: Exactly. Absolutely.
[00:22:13] Speaker A: Like, we wouldn't do that. They probably wouldn't ask you that. Nobody's ever asked me that. Or my daughters, you know?
[00:22:20] Speaker B: Yes. And it shows this weird thing that I don't think people realize they have, but it's some kind of, like, ownership or token ship or something of, like, that's not, like, that's not okay to ask if, when you really break it down, you wouldn't ask that of me or of you. And so please don't ask it. My kids, just because they happen to be adopted.
[00:22:43] Speaker A: Right? Yeah, let's. Let's remove them from whatever this category is. Put them into all of humanity like everyone else. Right, okay.
[00:22:51] Speaker B: And so.
[00:22:51] Speaker A: But that's not where you ended. So what happened after that?
[00:22:54] Speaker B: Nico and Jude came home that fall. We found out in, like, that early winter that we were pregnant. And then at 17 weeks along, we found out it was twins.
[00:23:12] Speaker A: Like biological born at the same time. Twins?
[00:23:15] Speaker B: Yes.
Yes, we did. So our family grew by four because Nico and Jude coming home and then the twins being born, or in about ten months. Yeah, less than a year.
[00:23:31] Speaker A: So funny. All right, so then what happened? So now you're a family of nine, but that's still not where you all stopped.
[00:23:37] Speaker B: No, no, it's not. So the twins were born. They're eleven now, but we're a family of nine then. And honestly, I mean, really, this was about birth for me. So, I mean, we had more room. We didn't feel like, oh, we couldn't do this, but I had kind of a traumatic birth with the twins. It was my first one. And I was like, I.
I want, like, I want another child. We can handle another child, and I want another birth.
And so we talked about that, and ended up, like, I wanted a really natural birth at home and everything. And so we ended up having Fiona. So Fiona, our number ten. And really we did. We really felt like that was it at that point. And we felt like we were a family of twelve. We were a nice dozen, and that was it. And then got another. I mean, we've had a lot of surprise and surprises in life.
One more.
[00:24:43] Speaker A: So, okay, so then y'all were doing life, but you ended up going back to Uganda.
[00:24:53] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:24:54] Speaker A: Now, was this another medical trip that you went on?
[00:24:58] Speaker B: No. So we got all we were reached out to. Fiona was little, I think, six months old, and we got a call about a baby girl.
[00:25:11] Speaker A: Now, just because y'all were still trying to pursue more adoptions or just because you'd already been kind of in the system and they knew you had already.
[00:25:19] Speaker B: Been in the system, but was another little girl. And this was about, this was like when Fiona. We were pregnant with Fiona.
[00:25:27] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:25:27] Speaker B: And there was a girl that had been on a waiting list for a long time, and she had a medical issue that I believe that was probably one of the reasons that was, you know, keeping her on the waiting list.
[00:25:41] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:25:42] Speaker B: And I was advocating for her to find a family. And at some point, Matt and I were like, we could do it.
Let's go get her. And we're sick of this kind of thing. And we did. We. But before we did that, we had our lawyer go ask a judge. Like, this is like the family. They have this many kids and, like, kind of tell them our story. Like, will you prove this? Because her medical issues, they had said she had to go to a family with, you know, a certain amount of kids or whatever just to be able. Yeah.
So we. We thought, before we start everything, let's just, like, have our lawyer ask. And the judge said no. Like, no, I. So I think that's one of the things. And I was able to advocate for her. Then I was blogging still in blogging days, and found her a family. And she has the most wonderful family in Tennessee. And she.
But I think that was one of the things that kind of got us back on the radar. Like, they're open. Okay. And so, yeah, so we were kind of called about her, and I actually was very adamant of, like, this is a little girl. Like a little baby. Let's get her. What if we just support the family? Like, what if we buy the milk? What if we, you know, do whatever we can to keep her settled there?
And so we took actually trip there. It's just so difficult especially then we didn't have video calls as much and stuff. Now let's just. And it's in the village. Let's just go. And so I went and, you know, I don't. She did end up becoming her daughter. So I don't want to tell a lot of the backstory, but I did a lot of work to try to resettle her and try to there. And at some point it was just like, no, this isn't. This isn't working.
So my husband and I started. Then I came back home. We started the process. Then for Ruby, became our 11th child. I call her exclamation point because she is that in every sense of the word.
That's so cute. Fourth set of twins, three virtual twins, and one biological set. So her and are eight.
[00:28:11] Speaker A: Okay, so funny. All right, so that was in, I guess, like 2016.
[00:28:19] Speaker B: Mm hmm.
[00:28:20] Speaker A: Now, did all twelve of you go over to Uganda after that?
[00:28:27] Speaker B: We did. Well, we all went. So on that initial inquiry trip to try to resettle her, I came back and we were like, okay, we're doing this. Let's go. We got our home study done in, like, record time and then decided to leave that summer to go get her. We knew that our court date would be sometime in the next three months, and so we planned on just moving there for the summer and maybe fall. So we took all twelve of us to go adopt her. It was important to us anyway. We had been going to Uganda with our family different times. We would go for Christmas and stay there for a couple weeks or go over the summer, just whenever we had time. It was really important that we keep our kids in their culture as much as possible.
[00:29:16] Speaker A: So you planned to go, what was the difference this time? But you were like, we're just going to go stay for a while. Is it because she was so little and you were trying to reunify her with her family?
[00:29:25] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that she was so little and just the timing happened to work out because it was summer, so it's cool and sports and stuff. It just worked out. And so we were like, why not? Why not just go stay? Okay.
[00:29:40] Speaker A: What do the kids think about the older kids about going and kind of moving for the summer?
[00:29:45] Speaker B: Yeah, they love it. They were super excited about it. But the thing that happened is we planned on that three months, but then when we got there, you know, adoption laws are always changing, like, worldwide, every country so different. And ugandan law changed while we were there. And so they started where the families had to foster the child in country for twelve months before they were allowed to adopt them. Now, as we had already started the process, we were kind of like, do we fall into that? Do we don't? We were kind of in a holding pattern. Right.
But we knew we were there for three months and we were just kind of waiting to hear. And we found out that we filed for adoption two days after the new law was signed into place. So we felt we were the first family to fall into the new law.
[00:30:39] Speaker A: That had to foster for twelve months first.
[00:30:42] Speaker B: Yes. And so, of course it was more difficult than this, but basically it was like, what are we going to do? Like, we're here, she's our daughter, we're already fostering her. Like we. So we stayed. We just stayed.
[00:30:58] Speaker A: So your whole family stayed and just lived there for like 16 months?
[00:31:02] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah.
My husband would come back and forth sometimes because he had to for work and he would, you know, be in the states for a couple weeks and then come back to us. But, yes, we stayed 16 months then until her adoption was final.
[00:31:18] Speaker A: Love. Are you just like a super spontaneous person? Because. Because this feels to me like without planning, I love it, but without planning and to just be like, all right, well, I guess our whole family is going to stay here for a whole year like that. Just, I don't know, it doesn't compute in my brain. So is this just like how you're wired up?
[00:31:36] Speaker B: I would say in general, yes, but that's like a stretch. But it's your child, you know? Yeah, I guess it was our child.
[00:31:46] Speaker A: So did you homeschool the other kids while you were there? Did you like, teach them while you guys were living in Uganda?
[00:31:51] Speaker B: Yeah, so we had an online program.
[00:31:53] Speaker A: That they were able.
[00:31:55] Speaker B: And so, yeah, I mean, I would help them and do stuff like that. And some of the younger kids, I did more of my own homeschooling, but the older kids were on an online program, so it worked out.
[00:32:06] Speaker A: That's so awesome. Is that when you guys started to shine, was it about the same time?
[00:32:11] Speaker B: Yes. Okay, tell us about that.
As you can imagine, a family of 13 finding a place to stay in Uganda is like an issue.
[00:32:19] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:32:20] Speaker B: And they have wonderful guest house and stuff like that. But it just, I mean, then they had other guests coming and we wouldn't have room and moving around and it was just, it was difficult. And at the same time, my husband is a home builder and our best friend, who is ugandan, is also a home builder. And so his name's Patrick. Matt and Patrick, we're just like, let's let's just build you a house here, and then you always have a place to come to, which is something you've always wanted anyway. And again, I know it's more difficult than this, and there's more God in it, but we just. We built a house in three months, built a house in a little village along the Nile river, and it became our home and got to know our neighbors. And, of course, you know, my kids friends would come over and play at our house, and all the village kids would end up in our yard playing soccer and different games at the end of the night. And it was just, like, one of the most beautiful things. It's my favorite place in the world.
And as Ruby's adoption wrapped up, though, it was kind of like, what do we. How do we do this? Well, because, you know, we'll have this home here that we can come back and forth, but these are neighbors, and we love that. And, you know, their kids come over with my kids and we offer them dinner just like you do, you know, here in the states, like you do with your friends when they come over. But, you know, it would be said sometimes, oh, like, thank you so much. All I've had today was a sweet potato.
[00:33:59] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:34:01] Speaker B: You know, over 50% of the kids in our village at that time weren't in school.
Most of them don't have shoes. Maybe have one nice pair of shoes that they wear to church, you know, and it's just, they don't have school fees to be able to go. And so it was like, how do we do this? How do we love our neighbors? That's basically.
[00:34:22] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:34:24] Speaker B: And so that's really where Shine was born. Shine Village initiative started in May of 2017 and have different programs, but are main. At the heart of Shine is an empowerment program. So the first class of ten ladies came in at that time and since have gone through our empowerment program. They get taught from a business teacher about, you know, running a small business, and then they kind of evaluate their giftings and their previous grants and what they love. They make a business plan in that time, and upon graduation, they receive a small business grant. I the whole time that they're in the empowerment program, shine pays for all of their children's educational fees.
And when they graduate, they start slowly taking those on. So the goal is self sufficiency. And then a new ladies comes into the program.
[00:35:25] Speaker A: Now, are they being taught by other Ugandans, or is this like a missionary? People are coming in and helping.
[00:35:34] Speaker B: Yeah, no, we have a full time. We have 20 full time ugandan staff members that run all of our programs, programming. So really I'm like visionary and fundraising now, but that's like they, they do everything else. And it's all Ugandans.
[00:35:50] Speaker A: That's so amazing. Which is then again, helping those people have work and finances and all of that, too. Yep, that's beautiful. And we'll link all. If anybody is interested in learning more about shine or contributing to financially help support it. We'll link it all up in the show notes below.
I hope you're enjoying love's fascinating story so far. Now it's about to take a turn. So I wanted to drop in and let you know that while she doesn't go into specific details, if you're listening with kids around, you may want to pause or pop in some earbuds because this next part of her story is a little frightening if it kicks up any past trauma or feelings within you. I've also linked up some resources in the show notes to help you on your journey of healing. Here's the rest of my conversation with love.
Okay, so then in. So you guys came back, you bring Ruby home.
[00:36:44] Speaker B: Mm hmm.
[00:36:45] Speaker A: And then in January 2020, not knowing what was about to happen in March of 2020, y'all all went back again, right? So you all went back to Uganda again, just thinking you're going for a visit, I'm sure. And then the pandemic hit. So what happened? You were in Uganda when kind of the world shut down?
[00:37:08] Speaker B: Yes, we were. So we went in January and of 2020, not knowing what was coming and thinking that we were going to stay for a few months again. We had that spring semester that our kids that are in high school sports where it's kind of more mandatory, they didn't have anything that spring. We felt like it was a good time to again, go back. So we were kind of flexible on our time because we had that spring and really we had into the summer if we needed. And so, but then March 2020 happened and the pandemic hit, and we just, we decided, let's just see, like, we're good here. You know, we have home. And we were safe and let's just kind of, we felt really great there. We felt safe and cared for. And so, so we stayed. And then Uganda, the ugandan government took a really strict, hard stance on, like, trying to not get the virus into the country, which essentially is a loving, wonderful thing.
But it was all transportation. All transportation was shut down. So, no, the airports were closed, but that also meant, like, all motorcycles, all matatus, like their van taxis everything. Like, you not move. And even walking in groups, like, eventually, like, some people were getting beaten if by police, if they were moving around. And so for a country that. But most of its people are working for their daily bread, and they don't have refrigeration and pantry and stuff like that, it was deadly. We had people dying of starvation, not.
[00:39:05] Speaker A: Even because of the virus, but just because they couldn't get the food that they needed from a forced quarantine, basically.
[00:39:12] Speaker B: Yes, exactly. And so that was really difficult and became a time that shine pivoted because we couldn't meet. And we were like, but what can we do? What can we. And so we worked with the governments and local authorities to be able to distribute food. And so we would raise money online to do food distributions, and our staff would meet and pack the food, and then we would rent trucks and basically, like, drop bags of food at people's, like, front lawns just all along. And so we did that with thousands of families. We became a village ambulance. So women, especially, would knock on our gate all hours of the night, and I would drive them in to give birth. Most of the women wanted me to stay then, so I got to see and assist with a lot of. Not assist medically, but just help the ladies. I mean, I am a. But I don't practice Uganda, but ulta just. It kind of. I was kind of like their doula, really. And so a lot of births and other medical situations that actually some pretty miraculous medical situations. So it was a really hard time, but really neat time for our family to walk in, like, okay, but what. What can we do with God? Like, to help? So it was neat.
[00:40:48] Speaker A: And did your kids get to be involved in this, like, the food packing and all of that?
[00:40:54] Speaker B: Yes, for sure they did. And I mean, from littlest all the way up, they did. They helped pack and organize and distribute, and it was wonderful. And our oldest two daughters, Chloe and Annika, have a lot of interest in midwifery and nursing. And so they would go with me sometimes to take these ladies. And it really, like, one time there was a baby that was supposedly hadn't made it in utero, and so the mom was in surgery, and all of a sudden, the surgical doors opened up, and this ball of blankets was just, like, plopped into my daughter Annika's arms. And, like, she's alive. Take her to Nicu. And Annika, where's Nicu? You know? And a different nurse is like, follow me. So Annika's just walking under the, like, beautiful ugandan african sky of, like, full this, like, open air hospital, like, carrying this tiny baby to NIcu. It was some of the most amazing experiences of my life.
[00:42:01] Speaker A: Yeah.
Amazing experiences, memories, all these things.
So now, unfortunately, after all of the amazing and everything has been so good and beautiful, something really, really hard and terrible happened. And I know that this is not something that you really talk about publicly. I know that this is not something that you have shared really publicly before.
So I want to be really gentle here and ask you to just share, you know, whatever it is that you want to share with what happened next. Next.
[00:42:34] Speaker B: Yeah. Thank you. So then, in July of 2020, we really were just living this life exactly like I described. And each day waking up and saying, you know, what can we do to help our neighbors live and have hope and commune with them? And then in July, we. During the middle of the night, we unfortunately experienced a really violent and traumatic home invasion.
And so it was the middle of the night. All of our family was home. All 13 of us were there, and shyness separate from our personal compound, but it's very close by.
They were attacked as well. And so we had staff members injured. Our oldest two children were injured.
And then my husband and I really. We medically shouldn't have lived, and God spared our lives. And it's 100% only him and the army of angels that were with us. Armies of angels.
But, yeah, so we went through that there.
[00:43:51] Speaker A: Yeah. So did it seem like something that was planned, the fact that it happened to your house and to shine all at the same time? And.
[00:43:58] Speaker B: Yeah, and, yes, it was very planned. And, you know, there are some things that we'll just, like, never know on this side of eternity. But, you know, there have been people that have suggested with, you know, educated guesses, that maybe even our distribution of food throughout the village in such hard times put more of a target on us.
We did go wider, and I know we're going to talk about, like, some things that God has done through this. That's. That's one. One of the things I really struggled with God on that, like, not that he owes me something for what? Like, we all know that we don't get eternity with God because of the things we do. Like, it's 100% grace.
At the same time, it was like, you called us here and you gave us these things that we could do to, like, serve and to be loving to our brothers and sisters. And for someone to use that to harm us in such traumatic way was something I really, like, had to struggle through with God.
[00:45:13] Speaker A: Absolutely fair. I think I would have been. I know I would have been the exact same way, especially because it wasn't just like you guys were there and living there, but you were truly trying to love your neighbors, as scripture says, and you were trying to do good there. What was it like to wrestle kind of through that doubt? And like you said, I know you said, God doesn't owe you, like, an answer, but I would. I would be looking for one, you know?
What were your moments of, like, doubt or questioning as you went through that?
[00:45:46] Speaker B: Yeah. So that was definitely one. Like, why, when we're. When we're doing something you've asked us to in serving, like, why would we be hurt in such, like, terrible ways?
And then others were just like, when you've asked us to be in community, and then you've possibly used people in that community to hurt us in such a bad way, it felt like such a violation of the way God has wired my heart for hospitality, I think is like, so, like, I was always, I don't want our gates, like, shut and locked. They were shut and locked at night. Like, we've had terrible things said about us, too, about why maybe, or how this happened, because we shared details. Our gates were shut and locked. We were.
We had other measures of security. But, you know, during. During the day and with my community, I didn't want that. I didn't want these gates and walls between us. I love my neighbors and I want to feel welcome. And is there, of course. Are there boundaries there? Of course, just like you have here in the states, there are certain times kids are welcome over. There are certain times they're not. But the way God wired my heart for hospitality and the way that was used a little bit, and some of the things we found out, I was hard and I questioned God on that. And I guess the other big one is just my kids. I mean, I feel like, you know, I. A million times, if they didn't have to have any. Any hurt in it. And the physical hurt was difficult, but the emotional and spiritual healing is so much more.
[00:47:37] Speaker A: Yeah. What has that. And I want you to definitely protect your kids stories and all of your things. I know we talked earlier, even about people's curiosity is not more important than protecting your kids healing, but what has healing been like for your family since then?
[00:47:55] Speaker B: So at that time, then, of course, first it was physical health was first and foremost. And so the missionary community was so beautiful with us at that time and just swooped up. Our kids, they all were at different trusted missionaries houses being so wonderfully. Cared for. And so that was really beautiful to keep them physically safe as we were physically healing in the ugandan hospital. So our two oldest kids and my husband and I were at the hospital for a while and I have had a couple surgeries and really towards the end, then I just needed more surgery that couldn't happen in Uganda and back to the states for that.
So physical healing was long, especially for me.
And there's still ways that my body doesn't work the same. And at this point it's a reminder of how far God has brought me and the thing has done, but that's even still a work in process. But the emotional and the spiritual healing.
I remember sitting in the ugandan hospital room and Matt's hospital bed was across from me and I was kind of in and out of consciousness. And at some point he had told me that there was a missionary family that was living nearby, that their whole mission was to minister and encourage missionaries, so that's the only thing they were there for. And their ministry was beautiful and I had seen the fruits of that even before.
But then we became on the receiving end of it and it really was, they worked hard to find us a place where we could go on. Basically, it was like a family trauma retreat where we would be cared for and each one of us, individual counseling and family counseling and be able to process. And we knew, I mean, I knew from my time as a nurse and just studying, from helping my children heal from trauma, that the more, the sooner and the healthier you can process the trauma, the better, you know, the better the outcome. And so. But the thing was, I mean, it was tens of thousands of dollars for a family.
Look at getting home to the states when the country was closed. We would have to embassy chartered flight for a family of 13 because this.
[00:50:35] Speaker A: Is still like July 2020, right? Yeah, like, and then the thick of, like, the shutdown. Okay, yeah, exactly.
[00:50:42] Speaker B: Yeah. So every. The country was completely closed except for these really expensive embassy chartered flights for people who really needed them for some of.
So I remember being in and out of consciousness and thinking, how will we ever do that? How will we ever, like, help our family have a chance at healing and, you know, a healthy way? And apparently my, one of my best friends in the state started a GoFundme for just that. Like, let's help them with their, whatever medical bills they need getting back to the states. And in his. I need, like, let's just see what happens. And I remember sitting across from Matt in the hospital room and sometimes coming back into consciousness, and he would be like, look at this. Like, look, love. And, like, seeing the money, I feel like, you know, people just.
They felt like they. It's something they could do tangibly, you know, to us. And, of course, people were praying, but. But they didn't even, like, know exactly where that was going to go. They just knew that it would help our family get to where we needed to be, and. And it did. We had to buy the chartered flights home, and then we were able to go to that family trauma retreat, and we were there for weeks, I think five weeks, and full place in Michigan in the fall. And it was like, so healing, and. And our family did really hard work to process that and really begin the journey of healing that God had for us.
[00:52:22] Speaker A: And I imagine, especially being that in your physical body, love, you have this reminder, right? You. This constant reminder of what happened that you can't ever, like, fully turn away and forget what happened.
But, yeah, the fact that you guys were able to heal together as a family, I think, is such a gift because I can only anticipate that you guys will continue to work through and process this healing for the rest of your lives. And so that's another thing that you guys will be able to then all be able to walk through together, because no one truly will ever be able to understand what you went through except for your family, you know?
[00:53:02] Speaker B: Right, yeah, exactly. And, yeah, it was a gift to do it together, for sure, because that's it. It's just us, you know, that's all. Who can fully understand that?
[00:53:13] Speaker A: Well, you talked about. You talk a lot about community and about how your community showed up for you. It's so funny is I don't even think I told you this when we were together a couple of months ago, but I remember hearing your story. Like, I remember your GoFundme when all of this happened. And we don't live in the same place. Like, I'm in Charlotte, you're in the midwest. Like, I'm in the southeast. And so I think that just kind of talks to the power of God, that, like, you and I had never met. I can't even tell you where I was or how I found out about you, but I just remember hearing your story, hearing how horrific it was finding the Gofundme. And I was like, of course, right. Like, I didn't know you. We didn't live in the same place. Who knows if we even had friends in common. And so, yeah, I think for not at all to negate what happened. Not at all. To negate that, but just to be able to look and see the power of God moving even when.
But you talk about community a lot, and I think, for me, if something like this happened, I think that I would turn inward and I would stop trusting people, and I would just absolutely, like, take my family and live in our house and lock all the gates forever, you know, like in frozen. And she would just, like, close all the gates at the castle, and I don't think I would ever let anybody in ever again. But that's. Community has still been something that's really important to you. And so can you explain, like, kind of how you worked through that and how God's allowed you to still, like, have a heart to be with people?
[00:54:51] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. That is absolutely, like, my flesh. Like, I want to do that, like, lock the gates. Yeah, I'm right.
But, I mean, in my heart, I know that God made us for community. We're supposed to do this alone, and we are, you know, we experience things in ways that then we can walk with other people in ways that no one else in the world can. And one of the beautiful things there, there's no one that experienced it exactly like my family, but there are. There are really hard stories of families on mission that have experienced really traumatic, hard things and was a gift to be able to connect with them early on. And there was a time that I thought, never, never. I will never. How can I go back there? How can I take my kids there?
And, you know, God walked us through that, and that if he called us there and, like, don't let.
Don't let evil take that away. Like, don't take away something that God gave you in the light, like, something that they took away in darkness, you know? And so that's really something that I held onto. And is it gonna take time? And has it taken time and is it going to be a process?
For sure. But we don't. We don't give up on all people. We can't destroy all people because of that. And so, you know, he's walked all of us through that. And our community here and there have been amazing. We've continued to take trips there. You have. You've gone back, not my has been back at the same time, and not all of our family has been back, but Matt has been back with some kids, I've been back with some kids, and he's getting ready to go again next month with another couple of kids.
And so, like, that is, like, that's our home, and shine is our home. Like, shine. Like, there are people, there are neighbors, there are friends. Like, one of my best friends is in Uganda. I talk to her every day.
You know, why. Why would I allow the evil to steal that from us, too, you know?
[00:57:23] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, and I will tell you, I was actually getting teared up sitting here just listening to you talk about that. Because I think regardless of what people listening, what their situation is, everybody is going through something hard. And I think it's tempting to compare. Right. And to be like, well, my heart isn't hard because I didn't go through that or to compare our stories to yours or to other people's. But really, like, what I'm hearing you say is that there's always hope that God is going to redeem and that God can redeem. And I mean, just the idea, love, of, like, let's not let the enemy win, basically. Like, let's not let the enemy steal the. The good things that God has given us because we live in a broken, fallen world with broken, fallen, hurting people. And I don't know, I just think if that's a truth that somebody can hold on to today, like, that's really hopeful and that's really just the grace of God, you know?
[00:58:24] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:58:25] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:58:26] Speaker B: That. I mean, in the end, that's it. We. God wins, and we can have hope that no matter what we are going through, and it's really difficult, and I wouldn't choose it again for my kids ever.
Same time, we have learned that it's only God. It's only God who was with us in those moments. We had no else. And it's only God that's walked us through, and he's given other means of grace. Like, you hearing about me from, you know, never knew each other and of other people, but in the end, it's only God. And we can hope in that, and we can trust in that.
[00:59:10] Speaker A: Yeah.
Yeah. Well, one practical thing, love. I know that there are people listening who maybe have been feeling a pull towards foster or adapting or missions work or something. But I also have heard you say multiple times in this conversation that we don't want to create need where there's not one. And so there's this tension, right, of, like, we want to help and we want to, quote unquote, like, save these kids and provide for them.
But then there's also stories of, you know, like, white savior trips where people go and then do actually cause more problems unintentionally. Do you have any practicals for people listening that do want to help and do good to kind of take the right steps and not accidentally create extra need.
[00:59:59] Speaker B: Yes.
So I would say the first thing is, you know, you can go to these amazing places and go, go experience the place and the people and be a tourist and put money into their economy and don't haggle them all the way down.
And, you know, even specifically Uganda. Like, it's amazing. Go Gorilla Trek and go on a safari and go bungee jump on the Nile and go, you know, eat in the restaurants and tip the staff. So one way is that we don't have to go be this, like some kind of savior. They have wonderful painters in Uganda, and you going and painting a wall isn't always the most loving thing because you're taking a job from a wonderful local painter and all the other ways that that could play out. So I guess the first thing is sometimes you can just go experience these amazing countries and be a tourist and pour into their local economy.
[01:01:14] Speaker A: I love that because then that's for anybody. Like, obviously, you have to have the means to travel, and so maybe that means you got to save for a while and, you know, figure things out. But, yeah, that's not just for people who have a heart for adoption or fostering or expanding their family. That's anybody. We can all travel and educate ourselves on the people and the culture, and I love that.
[01:01:35] Speaker B: Yeah.
And then the other thing, if you do have a heart for foster, adoption or vulnerable children, I guess the thing that I would say is make sure that you're doing it in a way that is ethical. And the biggest thing with that is that family preservation is key. So if there's any way to preserve a family, then that's. That's the best thing for the child. And so that's, you know, that looks different in every country you're in. In Uganda, when we started shine, we, we didn't know of a place like that. And so it was never, like, on my radar. I want to start a nonprofit. It was never something I, you know, wanted to do. I was happy to pour into other local ministries that were already established, but there wasn't one for family.
And we, when we were living there, we would literally have moms say, please, please take my child, if you will take my child. I know my child will be fed. I know my child will be educated. And there are a lot of the kids that have been dropped off at orphanages. That's their story. The mom was hopeful that they would be able to go to school because, again, if we work backwards from that, that's because a lot of loving, well meaning christians in the western world are funding orphanages.
So they're sponsoring in orphanages. But what if we looked at the mom and said, what can we do to empower you? What can we do to help you out of your situation in a sustainable way that you can keep your child, which is always best because you're obviously a loving mom. And so that's really where shine was born of, you know, how can we help the mom become self sufficient?
[01:03:37] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:03:37] Speaker B: And that's our tagline is preserving families, preventing orphans, and proclaiming the gospel, because those are the things that we want to do.
[01:03:47] Speaker A: It's so holistic. I think it's that, isn't it? That Desmond Tutu quote of like, at some point, we have to stop pulling people out of the river and go upstream and figure out why they're falling in. So that's what everything that you're saying, like, yes, the kids, but also if we could back it up and help the families there and the moms there, then maybe the fostering and the adopting wouldn't, the need wouldn't be as great.
[01:04:10] Speaker B: Right?
[01:04:11] Speaker A: That's really beautiful. Well, love, the last question I want to ask you is we ask, I ask everybody this at the end of the podcast, and that's because the podcast is called becoming church. And because we know that the church is actually global and not just the one little building we go to on a Sunday morning. What can people listening do to become the church to people maybe all around the world?
[01:04:33] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, we're the church, right? It's not a us. It's in us. And so who can you love? Like, love God? Well, and that's. That's it. That's the whole gospel. And so what can you do to see people and. And love them? And that might be your neighbor, and it might be your kids friends, and it might be a family in Uganda of a mom that, you know, wants to set up a business so she can care for. So ask God what you can do and just go out and love. You know, I used to hate my name when I was a kid. Did you love Lynn because you couldn't buy the personalized pencils, but when we were kids, you couldn't do that little.
[01:05:16] Speaker A: Chains with a little license plate. Yes.
[01:05:19] Speaker B: So I hated my name. And I've come to appreciate it so much, especially as it's mostly shortened to love. And that, like, it's. That's everything it comes down to. Just go find someone to love.
[01:05:30] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, and you, I will just say you live out your name so well. It's so perfect for you. And so I'm really. I'm really glad. Thank you for being here. Thank you for sharing your story.
I really appreciate it. Thank you for trusting us with all of this.
[01:05:45] Speaker B: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate you.
[01:05:53] Speaker A: That really is all it is to it. It's as easy as love. Start small and ask God who it is he wants you to love and then trust him when he shows you how to do it. Thanks for listening, friends, and keep becoming church to the people around.
