Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Machler Young, and my guest today is a pastor friend of mine, Ben Kramer. So many of you started following him after he was on the podcast last time. And if you don't yet, please stop right now. Scroll all the way down to the show notes and start following him immediately. If you need to, like, go in, follow him and jump right back off of social media, I get it. That is totally fine. But his is a voice that always points to Jesus in the most relevant, applicable way. And I know that you will get a lot from following him. The goal of my conversation with Ben today is truly to help you through this post election weekend. I know that a lot of you are feeling big feelings or different feelings. You're maybe feeling despair or finding it hard to find hope. Maybe you're frustrated with people that you love or you find yourself having conversations that you don't know how to show up in. While I will never promise you all of the answers on anything, I hope that this episode will help you navigate the tension of this time.
All right, Ben friend, it's good to talk to you. It's good to see you today. How are we feeling?
[00:01:28] Speaker B: All. All sorts of ways. That's why we're talking. Right.
[00:01:33] Speaker A: And that's why we're talking today. We're actually recording on the seventh and not the sixth, because I think yesterday neither of us had.
[00:01:40] Speaker B: Nope.
[00:01:41] Speaker A: Constructive words to say. Maybe.
[00:01:42] Speaker B: No. None.
[00:01:44] Speaker A: Yeah.
Yeah. Well, how are you, like, speak to whatever you want to actually speak to because I know that the people listening are coming from a variety of places and thoughts and emotions and feelings. How are you feeling today?
[00:02:00] Speaker B: Well, I will. I would say I feel a little bit better today, but not. Not by much. I didn't sleep the last two nights. Yeah. And after I have a six month old who's been going through sleep regression and things like that. So already on top of not getting enough sleep and then having this anxiety and pastoring folks through this too, like, you can't not think of your own situation without thinking of them too. And so, like in 2016, because of different reasons, but also because of political things that were happening then too, I came to the point of being diagnosed with PTSD and extreme anxiety and depression, and I've been really navigating that ever since. Right.
And so I think whenever people experience a collective reality together, we don't all experience it the same way. Right.
And some may have some visceral physical and mental reactions because of your chemical makeup that can make it really difficult to hold on to reality, to make it difficult to hold on to not letting fear overwhelm you and those. Those sorts of things. And so just to be vulner vulnerable and authentic, like, I know that my PTSD and anxiety have really been activated on. On high alert. Like, I went and worked out this morning in my little heart rate monitor.
My heart rate was up before I even got on a rower machine, right? So it's like I haven't even started working out and my heart rate's already going. Like, I'm in fight or flight mode.
And so for people to just be mindful of their own personal reality that may not even be shared by someone else, like they may be grie. Grieving or they may be, you know, doing something different, but they don't have that same mental health issue that you have too. And we can often forget that dynamic in circumstances like this.
[00:04:10] Speaker A: Well, thank you for sharing that. That's very, very vulnerable and honest. And I think that it's probably going to help some people feel seen. I think there's this misconception, right, that like, as pastors, we still also feel the hard and the heavy and that we just wake up and we're like, oh, but Jesus, we have all the.
[00:04:27] Speaker B: Right words to say and the scriptures to give. Yes, right.
[00:04:31] Speaker A: We have all the peace and whatever. And yesterday I honestly was just like, I am having a hard time finding hope. Like, I'm gonna choose my faith over my fear actively.
[00:04:41] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:04:42] Speaker A: Knowing that the hope is there, but I'm having a hard time seeing it today. And I let myself have that. And everybody that I talked to yesterday, I was like, not only am I gonna give you permission, not that it's mine to give, but someone needs to give it to you, give you permission to feel these things. But I think it's necessary. If we don't feel all of the things we're feeling, we won't be able to get it out so that we can move forward and stay in the fight. Like, we have to acknowledge all of this, right?
[00:05:09] Speaker B: And I think that's what we see with Jesus. Like, he didn't push people. Like, Lazarus is probably the best example of that. People are weeping around him. And Jesus didn't try to push them past their grief or try to give them empty platitudes, attitudes about it. He wept with them, right? And then in his sermon on the Mount, blessed are those who mourn for they shall be comforted. Right? And so, like, there's. There's all of this scriptural perspective of what we are called to be in a place of mourning.
And I think it can be really, really hurtful when the church, you know, folks in the church come along and spiritually bypass grief or push people through it. And as pastors especially, like, we are shepherds first and foremost. So when we see people grieving, sit with them in their. Like, don't be any of Job's friends, right, who try to, like, push Job through and, like, condemn him for his grief or shame him for his grief. Like, oh, my gosh, this is terrible. The. What they are experiencing. And so sitting there with them is such an important aspect of walking with your Christian brothers and sisters.
[00:06:20] Speaker A: What do you think, Ben? What do you think it actively looks like, you know, to mourn with those who mourn? Because I think a lot of. Of people hear that phrase and they genuinely don't know what it means. Like, does it mean that they have to sit and cry? What. Like, what can that look like?
[00:06:34] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I think authentic listening. Like, I think one of the best representations we can point to in our culture is counselors and therapists who every day they go to work and they sit there and process with folks, and they're not. You know, one of the most annoying things from my therapist is just like, I want you to give me all the answers, right? No, but they're. They're actually there to process and help you approach your relationship with your own thinking, right? And some people may feel it in their gut, some people may feel it in their heart. Some people have head issues, like, problems they want to go through. And so I think mourning with people is to, like, not make it about you first and foremost, like, your perspective of the situation, your. Your understanding of reality. Because it can be really easy to sit down and say, okay, they're mourning over this thing that isn't legitimate, right? Is that really the point? Or is it to comfort them? Like, that's what Jesus says, is to comfort them. And so active listening, I think, is one of the most crucial elements of mourning with people.
Even if you see the world vastly in different ways, how do you sit down, actively listen, meet them where they are, just like Jesus meets us where.
[00:07:53] Speaker A: We are, and allowing them to feel however they feel, too. I think there's a sense of, like, mourning the right way. Like, no, you can be upset that your person lost, but, like, why are you angry? Why are you sad? I think there was there's a lot of conversation right now of, okay, well, you've got just today to do it, or there's a timeline or these are.
[00:08:16] Speaker B: Ways move on to work. Yeah.
[00:08:18] Speaker A: These are not acceptable ways where I will tell you, I vacillated between so many different emotions yesterday. Like, I was sad and then I was angry and then I was disappointed in like all of humanity, and then I was super bummed out by Christians and then I was like, hopeful, and then I was sad again about something else, and then I was mad at my own. Like, do you know what I'm saying?
[00:08:39] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:08:40] Speaker A: Within myself, I could not even pick the right emotion. I couldn't pick one.
[00:08:43] Speaker B: Exactly. Well, you see that in the Psalms, right? I think Psalm 88 and Psalm 89 is a perfect example. Like, Psalm 88 is one of the angels, angriest, most like dystopian psalm. And it's a prayer, right? God, why have you abandoned me in the depths of despair? Death is my closest friend. How dare you. Calling God to the mat and it ends that way. Then Psalm 89. I could sing of your praises every morning. You know, it's like, it's just like, whoa, somebody needs a Xanax right now. Or something like that. Like, but it's inauthentic to think that that's like the psalms give us the human experience. Like we are. We are not just either. Or grieving or joyful. Like we. Even in a five minute or an hour moment, you are vacillating between the two because it's like your mind comes to different scenarios and different thoughts and then different people and the folks that you care about and you're just trying to process this huge reality. You think it's going to be one emotional reality for you. So, like, we do ourselves a disservice and other people a disservice when we minimize the complexity of human experience and the shared collective experience that we are all having to assume that we are all impacted the same way is a form of evil. In my. In my opinion, it's a form of evil.
[00:10:10] Speaker A: And God made us this way. Like, he did this on purpose. If he didn't want us to have emotions, he wouldn't given them to us. If he didn't want us to be able to think about things, our brains wouldn't function. Listen, we're all a little bit dramatic. And like, that's also in the Bible. Wasn't it Jonah who gets back and he's like, I'm so mad. Like, I'm gonna sit under this tree and just let me die. Like, just kill me right here under this tree. Because I'm so mad at you, God.
[00:10:33] Speaker B: Right. And God is like, do you feel good in your anger? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah.
[00:10:41] Speaker A: Well, Ben, I know that you and I both feel called to, which some people don't understand, but I'm so glad that you do. You and I both feel called to pastor people outside of just like a traditional Sunday morning congregation through mostly social media, but also, I would say people that are listening to this conversation right now. What is one of the biggest needs or hurts that you're seeing people, like, experience right now in this moment?
[00:11:09] Speaker B: Man, even that, I mean, is so complex. Grief is such a. It's like a stained glass window, right. There's all these different colors and different elements put together, and even when the light hits it, it comes across so differently. But I think some of the major ones is that from people groups who have felt like they have been targeted by demonizing language, experienced political policy and legislation in ways that I will never understand. Right. As a. As a white, straight, Christian pastor, male, like, I will never experience some of the ways certain legislation has impacted people. And then to hear people in positions of power speaking such dehumanizing and demonizing language towards them and their friends and their loved ones, I think that's the biggest areas.
[00:12:07] Speaker A: More prejudice and more racism. More bullying behavior and more bullying.
[00:12:13] Speaker B: Yes, I think so. If there was one word, I would say it's gaslighting. Like, there's. There's so much spiritual gaslighting, you know, for the last several years. It's not just now of, like, your. Your feelings don't matter, your experience doesn't matter. It doesn't line up with my worldview. You need to get on board or you're the enemy. Right. So there's that really staunch either or perspective where people are not allowed to grief, not allowed to express their fear, their anguish, their grief, and are gaslit to accept the realities that have harmed them and harmed those that love them. So I think that's the number one thing I'm hearing from people.
[00:12:58] Speaker A: Yeah. And I. I do feel like it's been, like I said, an issue for years. You know, somebody commented yesterday on a reel that I posted about, basically, it was just about expand. Like, you need to expand your circle. If you don't understand. Yeah, just expand your circle. And she was like, do you not realize that we've been here for the last four. We've been in your shoes for the last four years? And I was like, Ma'am, this, if, if we ask the marginalized people, if we ask the vulnerable people, this is not something that started four years ago. This has been going on for much longer, for many, many years. Like, I also am a straight white, I mean, female, and this is my lived experience. So I know how I have learned to listen to other voices. But Ben, what, what's something that you've done to kind of open your eyes and, and learn from other people's lived experiences?
[00:13:50] Speaker B: Gosh, like the, it's the continued call of Jesus. Like, I feel like he was always on the margins listening to folks and the outside other and even his parables, like the Good Samaritan, like literally using people who are the marginalized, the other who are considered unclean as examples in his parables. Right. And so I think so much of following Jesus is being able to step outside yourself, being able to step outside your own lived experience to understand, okay, what does it mean to be a person, person of color or a different gender than me in this world? How is that experience different? You know, and that has been the biggest source of humbling and grace to me is to see the image of God in the person speaking to me and to let that be the lens through which I listen and experience their reality that this is an image bearer of God speaking to me. How am I then able to show up like Jesus and listen and bring healing, compassion and a desire to walk alongside their lived experience?
[00:15:07] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I know, even practically, because there are people that are listening and it's easy sometimes, right, to go, well, this is not the community that I live in. And the community that I live in looks like me and everybody. And that is valid. Like it. Especially in different places of our country where people are listen. That is valid. I'm lucky enough to live in a very, very diverse.
But I know that's not the case everywhere. And so I would just say because of the Internet, like, we no longer have a fence or a border around what our community is. And so it's super simple to just start diversifying your feed and following people that are very different from you, that have different, you know, lived experiences from you, reading books by authors that don't have the same lived experience as you. And I think too the follow up to that is then not trying to justify, like why you disagree with them or why your lived experience maybe is. Does that make sense?
[00:16:03] Speaker B: Yeah, listening in a way to respond. Like listening to listen. Right? Yeah.
[00:16:08] Speaker A: Correct, correct. Or like, well, I hear you saying that racism is a problem, but I Know I'm not the issue because. Do you get what I mean?
[00:16:18] Speaker B: That's exactly right. Because I think the biggest thing that I saw, I've lived and worked and was born and raised in Idaho, which has always been over 90% white. Always.
[00:16:28] Speaker A: Okay?
[00:16:29] Speaker B: So the time I was little to now, always. And so not a diverse place by any means. And so I think one of the biggest things that I've realized is that racism can be unconscious. So can misogyny, so can our view of the other people that I don't know. We have these narratives that we've just learned and have accepted, right? And so understanding, like if part of the gospel is repentance, and so repenting is an ongoing reality for the follower of Jesus, right. It's not just a one and done thing. So it's constantly renewing my spirit, renewing my mind and thinking, wow, what are all of these unconscious biases that I have literally never questioned ever? Because the worst thing you can do is to say a racist knows they're racist.
Not everyone, like that's Martin Luther King Jr. He said, @ least I can trust the Ku Klux Klan to be honest about the racism. But the white moderate doesn't know that. And they greet me with smiles and compassion and some of the most vitriolic words, right? It's like that reading Martin Luther King was a huge eye opener to me. It's like, whoa, I don't want to be racist. Like, I believe that that is a sin. And so how can I treat that? Like I would gluttony or gossip or all of these other sins that are just kind of easily accepted, like, okay, don't tell a lie. I'm not going to kill anyone. Like all of these commandments, I'm going to follow those things. But what are, what are the really sinister things that I have just taken in that are just baked into my cultural worldview that are not of Jesus and that dehumanize other people.
[00:18:20] Speaker A: Right, right. We go to the extremes, right? I'm not, I'm not part of the kkk, so I must not have any racism within me whatsoever. I haven't murdered anyone, so I haven't dehumanized anybody. Like, we go to the absolute extremes because it's easier to turn a blind eye to what might actually be brewing within us. And listen, all of the grace, all of the grace for people who are just getting to this place. I was there. I was that person who did not question what I thought, what I believed any of it for years, years, years. Yeah, so all of the greats. But it does, it takes a humility of going, okay, am I willing to look inside myself and ask Holy Spirit to reveal to me where there are places that I am actually contributing to something?
[00:19:09] Speaker B: Right?
[00:19:09] Speaker A: In jokes that I'm making or in the people that I am and am not including in my life? Like if, listen, you ask Holy Spirit to show you, be careful, be careful with that question.
[00:19:23] Speaker B: Because. And that's what we see in the Sermon on the Mount, right? Like, Jesus takes every command and said, you've heard it said this way, and then directs it right to the human heart. Like, do you know where murder starts?
[00:19:35] Speaker A: Right?
[00:19:35] Speaker B: It's hate and anger in here. Do you know where adultery starts? It's misuse of lust and sexual desire in here and in your mind. And like, the way that you structure your inner world, like, those things are the byproducts of those things. And so you can say, well, I haven't ever killed anyone, but be hateful and angry in your heart and be a bully.
Right? And so, like, there's, I just think there's this huge importance where Jesus takes the big picture and zooms in on your heart and say, like, just because you haven't, you know, killed anyone doesn't mean that you're not harboring hatred and anger in your heart and are a bully. And like those, those are the roots of these bigger harms that we cause to other people. And so when group peop. Groups of people start having that hatred and anger in their own heart, then it becomes very harmful too. Right? And so that, that inward journey is just so, so crucial.
[00:20:36] Speaker A: Well, and we're all human. Like, none of us are perfect. But we have to admit that before we can expect any spiritual growth to happen. There cannot be spiritual growth. We cannot become more like Jesus if we won't admit the places that. Yeah, we need a little help.
[00:20:52] Speaker B: Absolutely. Absolutely.
[00:20:56] Speaker A: Okay, we're about to get into a little bit more of Ben's story, as well as some practicals on how you can respond. Respond to some more of the things that you might be hearing people around you say. If someone comes to mind while you're listening, please send them this episode in the most loving, non confrontational way you can. Just text it to them and say something like, hey, I'd love for you to listen to these two pastors talk about their perspective of faith in this election. It will help you to better understand where I'm coming from.
And if you do that, be sure to also carve out time to Ask questions and learn where they're coming from in response. That is a great way to patriotically love your neighbor, Ben. Do you know Ian Simpkins? He's pastor of Bridge Church in Tennessee.
[00:21:44] Speaker B: No, I don't.
[00:21:45] Speaker A: He always does the black squares on Instagram. If you've ever seen his stuff come through.
[00:21:49] Speaker B: No, I haven't seen that.
[00:21:51] Speaker A: Okay, I'm going to connect. You would love him. Okay. You guys would love each other. I'm going to connect the two of you. But one of the things that he said yesterday, he posted, he was like, if your feed right now is only one perspective, it might be time to build longer tables instead of higher fences.
[00:22:05] Speaker B: That's perfect.
[00:22:06] Speaker A: And so we alluded to this a little bit already, but there seems to be a divide right now between, like, people who are upset and fearful and people who don't understand why anyone would have such big feelings outside of just like, yeah, yeah. Oh, you're sad your candidate loss, right?
So maybe, maybe this episode was sent to someone that is having a hard time understanding the big feelings, that is having a hard time understanding the fear and all of the anxiety. How do we help them understand that part of living out the love of Jesus means looking outside of their own experience?
[00:22:40] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that's. That's such an important question. I think it goes back to being aware, like, because Jesus really calls for this awareness of your worldview, awareness of your context. And so, like, let me give you a little bit of my background. I was, you know, raised in fundamentalist, like, ultra conservative Christianity, homeschooled K through 12 in rural Idaho. I was, you know, all the things that come along with it. Preparing for the Rapture, had canned foods, reloading, like, ammo in my garage, like, learning how to shoot when I was young. So, like, this was my life. My worldview as a Christian was we needed to take this country back for God. And, like, I am the soldier that's going to do that. Right? That was my worldview. Then, you know, we left that really ultra fundamentalist sect and moved to more evangelical churches. And that's kind of where I stayed until I moved. You know, felt the call to be a pastor around seven, then moved to the Wesleyan tradition in the Church of the Nazarene, which is very conservative churches. And then I've been in more Methodist circles for the last two, two and a half years.
[00:23:46] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:23:47] Speaker B: So big, big different experiences, different contexts of Christianity. Right. And I think one of the biggest lessons for me is to be we, we Christians are so trained to be outward focused yes. Their sin is breaking the world down. They need to repent. We even read our Bibles, like, oh, my gosh, those people really need to hear this, right? It's like, we have been so trained.
Yeah, right. It's like, oh, this person needs to hear. It's like. And it's that parable, right? Jesus even confronts that of the. The Pharisee and the tax collector, the Pharisees. Like, oh, thank the Lord I'm not like that person over there. I'm like, we read that like, thank the Lord I'm not like this Pharisee right here. It's like, you're actually doing what Jesus says not to do, right? And so I think one of the biggest lessons for me, as when I was, you know, especially ultra conservative, I was so unaware at drifting more, right?
The movement that I was in was I was always warning against liberalism or progressive ideology and calling that a slippery slope, but never once did I hear a pastor say, conservatism is a slippery slope towards the right, too, towards severity and control and demonizing. Like, are we understanding the spectrum that we're in and understanding that both sides are slippery slopes to more and more extremism? And so I got to the point that I realized that my perception of God, like pursuing God meant pursuing being more and further and further to the right. And I, the moment I realized that, the moment I was so deeply convicted and I. That's another unconscious reality, right? We don't know when it's the water that we're living in that we're breathing, bathing, that we're swimming in. We have no idea sometimes that we're actually drifting further and further and more sharply to the direction that we're sitting in. And then judging other people, it's like, oh, my gosh, and listen to what's happened to Republicans and conservatives who have opposed things. They're called chinos. Christian in name only, rinos, Republican in name only. Why? Why are they called that? Because those opponents have shifted even more right than they have, right? And so, like, understanding that the movements today, it's always fluid, right?
The Democrat Party was the party of slavery, and yet the same ideology that was shifted into other parties, right? So, like, even if it bears the same name, these are. Because we are humans and we are fluid. The parties and the movements that we are part of are also fluid and every changing. And so if we don't understand the context that we're in and our own pitfalls first, then we cannot put ourselves as judgment of other people because we may be drifting further and further to our side into extremes without even knowing it, and then turning around and condemning the sin of other people. Right. We have to be aware of our own idols first if we think we're going to be able to have any sort of perspective on where other people are in their lives right now.
[00:27:11] Speaker A: And I think, truly, truly, Ben, I think that's one of the hardest things is to admit and acknowledge and even to open our eyes enough to see what are the things that we're idolizing. I think it's so interesting that you use the word drift, because I'm just like, this is the picture, like, in my mind. No, it's you. You do. You drift toward what you already naturally know. And so for a lot of people, that's how you were raised, or that's the faith of your parents or the people around you, you know, And I think we could. There's a danger in getting stuck in these echo chambers. I saw somebody. I try not to get on Facebook. It's really not my favorite place, but I saw somebody yesterday, you know, was like, hey, everybody calm down. Like, everybody just take a breath. Geez. Like, everybody just chill. And everyone in those comments, which I did not engage, but every person in those comments that was like, yes, amen. Seriously, they all looked exactly like the commenter. And I just was like, this is the problem. People are stuck in echo chambers where there are people around them just confirming everything that they want to believe and think.
How do we get them out?
[00:28:22] Speaker B: So how do we get out of our own echo chambers? Yeah, I think that's one of the most crucial. Again, that's the awareness of the world that we live in. Right. Our screens aren't our.
Are literally edited and fitted for what we've clicked on, the things that we've viewed. And like, understanding that it's curated for your interests for the sole purpose of selling you things, whether it's a political message, products, anything. Right. It is. It has become.
It's based in consumerism. And so having that understanding that, like, I'm going to be served up things that are going to be maybe even more extreme to get me to have an emotional reaction. So I engage. Right. Because it keeps your eyeballs locked to the screen. Right. And so understanding that about our own echo chambers is really important. And that's why I think I've really encouraged people to get paperback books so you don't have notifications popping up of authors that you wouldn't read otherwise and go outside on a walk or even if it's an audiobook. Right. But still, like, turn notifications off and sit with the words that are being spoken to you or that you're reading and think, this is a person that I don't share skin color with, worldview with. How is it challenging my own worldview? Because if we're not challenged in. In our own perspectives, then we're not growing. Right. And that, I think that is the start to idolatry is the refusal to grow. And if we're not. If we're not growing, we're just going to be stagnant and think that where we stand is the most truthful reality ever. And certainty is not the goal of people of faith. Faith is the goal. Right. Certainty. When we feel like we're certain of everything, there is the Holy Spirit saying, are you sure?
[00:30:23] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:30:24] Speaker B: Maybe you need to be challenged in this if you're so certain on. Of everything. Right. Yeah. And so that I. That's why I believe humility is such a central component to following Jesus. Because that humility then says, I'm never so sure that I'm right about everything.
[00:30:41] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and it's, I think, cancel culture, you know, has gotten its term and its chance around the sun and whatever. But, like, I think there is something to that as well, where we have run away from discomfort. We just go, hey, not only am I going to refuse to have humility, refuse to grow. I'm going to stay where I am, but I'm going to ensure that I stay in this bubble because anyone that disagrees with me, like, unfollow, block, block, disengage. I'm talking people in their own families. It's not just social media.
The family text goes quiet or conversations all of a sudden are surface level, and nobody can talk about anything real anymore. It's like we have chosen comfort. Not that comfort is a sin, but like, we have chosen comfort over growth.
[00:31:32] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:31:33] Speaker A: And when we do that, I do think that it's a sin.
[00:31:35] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. Like, to refuse to be challenged about our own perspective, and especially when other people's pain offends us.
[00:31:45] Speaker A: Yeah. My guy get curious about that when you're offended by something that you see on the Internet.
Why? What does that tell you about you?
[00:31:53] Speaker B: Right, Exactly.
[00:31:54] Speaker A: Why are you. Why?
[00:31:55] Speaker B: Why? And if we can't answer that question, then are we really thinking hard enough about our own perspective?
[00:32:02] Speaker A: Yeah.
Well, I know one of the things, Ben, that's. That's going around. We talked a little bit about, you know, spiritual bypassing and platitudes. And that kind of thing. But there are. I'm seeing a lot of, like, well, God is still on the throne, or this happened for a reason, or I've got a whole list of them here. We just need, you know, love and peace and unity and everybody needs to come together or what else? We're not citizens of earth, but heaven. Like, explain. Explain how using phrases like this are really just a way of opting out and why maybe we should not use them.
[00:32:40] Speaker B: Yeah, one of the big. And this would cover all political spectrums for several years now within American Christianity, but I think we have been preoccupied with kings to the lack of paying attention to prophets.
How many.
How many books in the Bible are named after prophets?
How many books?
Right. No, it's 12. Like the disciples, like the nations of Israel. How many books besides, you know, Solomon's songs and psalms that were written under David's authority or whatever that may not or have been written by him specifically? How many books are named after specific kings in the Bible?
[00:33:33] Speaker A: How many? None. Deuces. Look at that.
[00:33:36] Speaker B: Deuces. And yet we are so obsessed with kings in American Christianity, and that's why the prophets get neglected. Who does Jesus quote the most?
Prophets? Isaiah, Jeremiah, Moses. Who does he critique? Herod, Solomon. So, like, he may be the son of David, but that's because it's the lineage thing within Judaism, like understanding where he came from and Mary's lineage, all those things. And so I think this preoccupation with kings makes us ignore prophecy, prophets. And I, I think one of the. I think one of the biggest critiques to those kind of spiritual bypassing is 1st Samuel, 1st Samuel 8, where God is in charge, right? God is trying to call Israel to a way of being in the world. And Israel says, we want a king.
And God says, my heart is broken to Samuel, go tell them what would happen if you wanted a king. They're going to tax you to death. They're going to send you to war. It's going to be horrible. And you know what? Every king fulfills that prophecy all throughout the old testament in 1st Samuel 8, every single one. And God's heart is broken and says to Samuel, they are not choosing a king over you, Samuel, they are choosing a king over me.
This is the God that's in charge, right? Apparently this is the God that everything's going to be okay because God's still on the throne. It completely omits, especially in a democracy where we have a really big role in electing our leaders. It completely bypasses human free will. And how we demand things that God then shows in the Old Testament. Okay, this is your decision.
I will walk alongside you. I will try to make the best of it. But we look at it and say, oh, no, God worked through King David, who is one of the worst people towards women and all of these, you know, the poor. Like, we don't say, look at Nathan, who wagged his finger in his face and says, you are the one who did this wrong. Nathan's not the hero. King David's the hero. It's like we read the Bible wrong when we are elevating Kings and ignoring the voices of the prophets.
And so when we, when we bypass our own human free will, it makes it easier and safer because it's like, I'm going to do my thing and then just say, God's on the throne. Why. Why would other people get upset? You have exercised your free will in this process too. So you are not taking accountability for the world around you too, and how you played a part in that. My New Testament professor would often say that God's wrath in a democracy is turning people over to the reality that they voted for.
[00:36:29] Speaker A: Okay. I mean, it's a natural consequence. Yes. Of the choices that you made, turning.
[00:36:34] Speaker B: People over to their own desires. Okay, this is what you want. I will still be faithful to you. I will walk alongside you. But God, nowhere in the Bible bypasses human free will. And so a lot of the things that I have a problem with those kind of statements is like, okay, yes, great, say that God is in control. Wonderful. Where's the human free will aspect? That's all throughout the Bible too. Like, we are participating in the kind of world that we want. Right. And then Jesus comes along and says, this is how you pray your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. And then you go and participate in that kingdom. You embody that. You are the ones bringing it about. And so how are we taking that other side of human free will and owning the things that we are participating in that other people can be grieved by that cause then pain that, like, you know, buying products. I could go on a whole tangent about this. Like, understanding the ethics of the products that we buy. It's like, no, it's on the shelf here. I'm not participating in the people that have died to bring this to this shelf or the inequitable wages that all the people who've picked that and packaged it for me so that I can eat and feed my family. It's like, we love our safe zones and Then we just say God's in control.
[00:37:53] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:37:54] Speaker B: When the prophets are screaming, you know.
[00:37:57] Speaker A: Yeah. No, I really do think it's just a way of, again, like we talked about opting out, not having to take responsibility, just going very, very passively, like, I don't have to do anything here. I have no control. I can't change anything. When you're right. Like you said, Jesus was like, no, you, you can actually create the world you live in. Here's how to do it. Live like me, go to the margins. Don't get caught up with the idolatry of kings. Like there are so many things.
So what do we do then? What do we do when we're in a conversation with someone and we're trying to be loving and we're trying to have grace and someone uses one of these spiritual platitude band aids in a conversation?
[00:38:40] Speaker B: I just, as gently as possible, like I try to put it in practical terms, like let's say they're a parent and their child, like I'm the father of a two year old right now who has a lot of opinions about things, right? And if my 2 year old did something that like hit his sister, bit me on the leg or whatever and I'm like, I said, foster, why did you do that? And he just like, well, God's in control.
Oh, so you don't. We're not going to talk about consequences of our actions, right. You know, things that we need to fix growth. It's like you're just going to do this stuff and then just say that God is in control. Right. And, and so I try to bring it down into real world scenarios of like, do your words match what you actually expect in your relationships? Right. If you just, if somebody came along and injured you or, or you got really upset by words that were spoken to you and you felt completely ignored, would you just say, well, God's in control, I don't need to worry about it? No, we live, that's not honest. We don't live that way. And so are our theological platitudes that we use match what we actually, how we actually navigate life. And half the time they don't. And so I want my theology to match reality. Like that's what I want. And so how do I understand the things I speak about God in relationship to how I actually navigate life? And it's much more complex and nuanced than we often like to make it be. Like, like you said that safety, it's very safe to have either or clean cut and dry, nice packaged bow beliefs about things. But that doesn't match real life.
[00:40:28] Speaker A: Yeah, so.
[00:40:29] Speaker B: So that's what I try to do.
[00:40:31] Speaker A: I think it's an easy thing too, even just to flip it, even internally to yourself. Like, if you were the one hurt. I understand you don't understand the hurt right now. Let's just say we're in a scenario where you are the one hurt. If someone were to say this to you back, right. How would it feel? What would you wish they said instead? And maybe say that and say that instead.
[00:40:50] Speaker B: Say that instead. Exactly. Because it does come down to how we define power. Right.
And I'm finding that a lot in our day and age, like how we define and navigate what we believe power to be is crucial to this conversation. Because you hear someone where their pain offends you. Why? Because it probably critiques your power structure of who you think. Like you're offended by this person that I care about and support. How dare you. Your pain is wrong. When it's like Mary, when Jesus is still in her womb, is talking about pulling the powerful from their thrones and sending the rich away and giving the poor good things and filling the hungry. Right. So, like it's upside down when you are critiquing and condemning the powerless because of the pain of those in power. Whenever we do that again, we have a backwards worldview. We are again elevating kings and dismantling profits when it should be the opposite. Right. When we hear our fellow citizens express pain and anguish because of the power structures, are you going to require that their pain accommodate and conform to the power structures? Or are you going to hold those in power accountable to the needs of the poor and the powerless and the marginalized?
[00:42:09] Speaker A: Right. Right. Well, I even love that you brought up Mary. Like, that's just a reminder to me too. This is.
Our lives are bigger than this moment. They're bigger than the future. We are all connected and part of this bigger story. And so, yeah, I mean, I even think, like I said, some people that are upset right now and not understanding also called Obama the Antichrist or called Hillary the Antichrist when it was. When it was flipped the other way. And I think we just have to remember we all get upset about different things. And like we said the beginning, we don't have to understand it or dictate who gets to be upset about what or when.
[00:42:47] Speaker B: That's exactly right. Yeah.
[00:42:50] Speaker A: Austin Channing Brown is a speaker and writer and she did a whole post on hope yesterday and she said hope for progress is A dangerous thing. And she talked about that. And then she asked the question. She was like. But truly, like, what is the alternative? Trying to change the world was the right choice. She was like, because if it's not hope, then apathy is our other option. And so even though it's hard right now, Ben, how do we keep holding on to hope when it feels like it continues to disappoint?
[00:43:19] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
Gosh. Stanley Hauerwas one of my favorite theological ethicists. He's from Duke. He wrote in his commentary on the book of Matthew. And one of the things I'll never forget is he. He contrasts hope and cynicism. Right?
Hope. No, he contrasts hope and patience.
If you only have hope, you.
You with no patience, you threaten to. And I'm forgetting how he phrased it specifically, but if you have hope with no patience, you. You threaten to try to progress too quickly to what is desired, that you minimize the reality around you now. Right. But if you have patience with no hope, you threaten to just accept the world as is without listening to the pain of those around you. And so hope and patience is such a crucial thing to keep together. And I think that's what we're seeing. Like, if we're going to be honest about our movement in the world around us, we have this movement. And I won't use left, right. You know, qualifiers. You can just. You can just hear it in. In what I'm about to say. We have a movement that wants to go back to a reality where things were a certain way. Right. And then we want another movement that wants to go to a different reality that isn't yet what we experience. Right?
[00:44:54] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:44:55] Speaker B: And there are elements of both that feel like are being ignored and filled with pain, that we are trying to push for one to keep the other and vice versa. And so the task of the church, I think the task of those who follow Jesus is to be honest about those movements and then to say, like, even in scripture, we see the progression of God trying to bring about a people that reflect God more fully and completely, trying to give them covenant that didn't work. Trying to bring them Allah. Well, that didn't work fully either. Try to bring about, like, a nation. Well, that obviously didn't work. Then God became a human being. And that had never happened before in all of God's eternal existence and all of humanity and all the time and eternity. Right. But we look at the Bible as like, well, everything. God never changes. Like, really, you think God becoming a human being is not a change? Maybe we misunderstand what we mean by God doesn't change. God doesn't change in how God loves and pursues God's creation. God never changes in that way. But God's a burning bush in one moment and becoming a human being in the next. So any way that God is trying to reach and meet people where they are, that is the kind of loving God that we're seeing. And so we are trying to then go back to what we thought was the good old days or trying to progress because we see people hurting and we want a world that actually understands and validates their humanity. How do we walk hand in hand trying to understand that? And I think that's really the crux of where we are right now. And it comes down to are we wanting compassion or control?
[00:46:38] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:46:38] Speaker B: And my hope has always been for compassion.
Because Jesus, having all cosmic power, didn't come to the world and force it to conform to his will.
He, out of love, died on the cross. The fullness, display of compassion of God for the world. And that was the final word of God, final judgment over sin and death. And that's what conquered the greatest evil that we've ever known, sin and death. Right. But yet we followers of Jesus think, okay, that's wonderful. Jesus died on the cross. Compassion, let's go control everyone else.
Let's make them conform to my way of being. And we'll even use political power to do it it right. And there's ways that Christians on multiple sides of the spectrum do that. Right. But we would be dishonest with ourselves if we didn't think that it was more located on the right at this point in history than it is on the political left with Christians. You don't see Christians acting the same way on the political left as you do with the political right right now. And that kind of integrity, honesty about where we are, the context that we are in, and having scripture and Jesus actually challenge who we are, rather than being so outward focused, is such an important, critical thing for us to have right now as Christians.
[00:48:00] Speaker A: Well, I think if we think that controlling other people is a way for us to reflect God to the world, I think we have to ask ourselves, like, who do we believe God is then?
[00:48:11] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. That's exactly.
[00:48:13] Speaker A: God is not a puppeteer like we talked about earlier. God gave us so much like, like truly yesterday when I was praying, I was like you. Why did you think this was a good idea to give us this much free will? I mean, it's done, like now it's happened. It's here. We're living it. But, like, what were you thinking, God? Like, this is so. We have so many voices.
[00:48:34] Speaker B: So many voices.
[00:48:35] Speaker A: And so. Yeah, right.
[00:48:36] Speaker B: And that's, that's Genesis to Revelation. Free. The use of human free will in relationship to God. And we, we continue, even in church history, we continue to learn this lesson time and time again, and yet we seem to forget it, like, the next epoch in history. Like, if we could just get that just even a little bit, then I think we would be taking some really crucial first steps in the right direction.
[00:49:03] Speaker A: Yeah. That's when I'm glad that, that God is not like us humans, because I'm like, I'm gonna run out of grace. Like, I'm gonna run out of patience and all of it, having to learn these same lessons over and over again.
[00:49:13] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:49:15] Speaker A: Well, Ben, let me ask you one last question.
[00:49:16] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:49:17] Speaker A: Because the podcast is called Becoming Church. What can people that are listening do to become the church to the people around them?
[00:49:24] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:49:24] Speaker A: Right now, in this very tumultuous time.
[00:49:26] Speaker B: Yeah.
I, I, again, I think what we just touched on is embodying compassion rather than a desire to control, really understanding legitimate concerns between being overwhelmed by despair and I think one of the biggest lessons I've learned in the last 48 hours is that I really need other people.
I can't navigate this by myself. Yeah.
And being a pastor is very isolating as it is. As, you know, like, being a leader, you have, you're looked to for decisions. You can't look for other people. Like, hey, I'm. I'm breaking apart right now, and I need someone to comfort me, and I need someone to encourage me. And so in, in today's isolated world, part of being the church is to be Peter standing there with Jesus saying, let me wash your feet. And letting Jesus do that. Right. Saying, okay, I need it. I need to be comforted. Like, I'm not. I can't gut this out by myself anymore. And then turning and saying, whose feet need to be washed now? Like, now that I've gotten a little bit of hope, a little bit of patience, how can I then turn and give that to somebody else, too?
And, and then being able to really listen and step outside of ourselves and, like, read history. Like, I, I cannot emphasize that point enough. Like, just read recent history in the 21st cent, how Christianity, Christians have screwed up, screwed up when it's come to political movements in the past. Apartheid, Nazi Germany, the Rwandan genocide. Like, look at these. How Christians did on, on both sides of the Spectrum, like how they responded really well in opposing these things and how they accommodated to power and used phrases like Romans 13, like, you just need to subject yourselves to this governing authority, even though they're doing harsh things. God's. God's in the midst of this, right? No, like, look at history and say, which who would I want to be a part of? Because you're living it now, right? You are living it right now. And so understand your history to be able to understand the present, and so you won't be doomed, Doomed to repeat that. So those are the kind of things that I've really encouraged people to try and embody to be the church right now.
[00:51:56] Speaker A: I just want to thank you. I think I'm hearing so much humility even in what you just said. Right. It takes humility to see where we actually are in history, present, future, like, what part are we playing? It also takes humility to allow ourselves to be cared for by other people. It's so much easier to stand strong and to say, I'm good, I'm cool, I trust God. You know, it really, it's fighting pride to say, no, I'm the one that's in need of people right now, and I have burdens that are too heavy to carry. And so, yeah, I just. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. Thank you for your honesty and for just your voice. Your voice is so needed right now, and I'm so glad that our paths have crossed. I'm here if you need to chat anytime.
[00:52:42] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I appreciate that, and I appreciate this conversation so much. I think one of the rarities which these conversations provide is processing where I am. And like, okay, this is an ongoing thing. How do I. How do I meet the moment right here and right now? And I. I think oftentimes because the big picture can feel so immense, so fearful, so unknown, that we have to solve the big picture when our expectation is to take that one step, one choice right here, right now. How can I bite, take one bite, not bite off more than I can chew, speak to people, get the comfort and move, move forward.
[00:53:22] Speaker A: Yeah, well, you've modeled that so well, and I think it's something that people need to actually see played out. So thank you. I will link up your Instagram and your sub stack and all of the things so that people can find you in the show notes.
[00:53:35] Speaker B: Yeah. Thank you so much, my friend.
[00:53:41] Speaker A: I hope more than anything that you leave episode knowing that you are not alone, your emotions are not unholy or unjust, and you are not crazy. For feeling like part of the world has lost its mind a little bit. Remember that the only person who gets to tell you who Jesus is is Jesus and He is right there in the middle of all of it with you. If you feel lost or like you're wandering on your own and you're looking for a church community that doesn't tie its theology to politics, I would love to invite you to be part of us here at Mosaic in Charlotte, North Carolina. We are currently in a series called Protect yout Peace, which is not about politics but is another resource to help you navigate the anxiety that you may be experiencing paired with the truth of God's promises. If you're not local, you can join us online at 9:30 Eastern or you can catch up on YouTube at Mosaic Church Church CLT. Thank you so much for listening. Take care of yourselves and until next time, keep becoming the church to the people around.
