Pricelis Perreaux-Dominguez: Being a Sanctuary

[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Machler Young and my guest today is the fiery and fun Precellis Perrault Dominguez. She is the CEO and founder of Full Collective, a community that ignites the body of Christ to grow in their God given callings. You'll hear her mention Sower Summit, which is the annual conference they hold in New York City. You may even hear some of that New York City traffic in the background of this interview, which I think is kind of fun because it makes us feel like we're there. Priscilla's book Being a Sanctuary is super aligned with the heart of this show. So if you love the idea of learning more about how you can become the church, you'll love this conversation with Priscilla. Hey, presellies. Welcome to Becoming Church. [00:01:02] Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you for having me. [00:01:04] Speaker A: Yes. How is it going today? How you doing? What are the vibes? [00:01:07] Speaker B: I'm hot. [00:01:10] Speaker A: I know it's like it's fall. But you're not in the south though. See, so that's what throws me. [00:01:16] Speaker B: I just like, I expect I live in four weather. A four weather place. Like right. We have four seasons and I just have expectations and sis is not meeting the expectations. Sis any weather. So, you know, I'm just here letting her be herself and figuring it out and drinking water, water with ice until she figures it out. [00:01:33] Speaker A: There you go. There you go. In. In Charlotte where I am, and we call it second summer. Like, you know, it's like we have like fake fall because the temperatures get cool and then it's second summer. And so yeah, who knows where people are listening right now. It could be summer, fall. Some of them are even experiencing winter. Like who knows? [00:01:50] Speaker B: But yeah, I'm good. I'm good. I'm making. I'm in New York just day by day. This year has been crazy and October has felt very peaceful and I'm just really grateful for it. Yeah, it's been really nice. It's like weird. I'm a. I'm like, this is weird. I haven't experienced this in nine months. So it's nice. It's nice. [00:02:07] Speaker A: That's awesome. And you're in seminary. I know you are. You have about a year and a half. You said you're about halfway through, I think. [00:02:13] Speaker B: Yeah, we're about to be at the end of the semester. We'll be halfway through. So, yeah, we're. [00:02:18] Speaker A: I've talked to Some other women in your cohort that are friends of mine and also who. Who have been on this podcast already this year. And so I like to know what was your goal or what is your goal in seminary? Because I think people hear, and they're like, oh, well, she must want to be a pastor. And that could be the right answer, but it could not be the right answer. So talk to me. [00:02:36] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. So I actually applied to seminary in 2015, which. It's crazy that that's about to be a decade ago. I cannot believe that. [00:02:44] Speaker A: How dare you say that. [00:02:45] Speaker B: What? Like, what? That's. That's wild. I was 25. I was working at a church, and I was actually about to start a master's in social work. And a lot of people actually who do MSW also do at M. Div at the same time. So there was a. There was a program like that. And then I started the first week, I was like, girl, no, I. You can't do this. Like, I was working full time. Like, it was just a lot. So I was like, okay, let me choose which one. And for now, I just chose the social work path in that moment. And then I really, honestly, I graduated, and I didn't come to think of, like, the MDIV again or seminary again. I was just like, oh, okay, moving right along. And then last year, at the beginning of last year, I had three people within a week, like, call me pastor. And people have been calling me pastor for a few years, and I'll always, like, brush it off. And I'm like, all right, well, sure, whatever. And no one has ever given me, like, a title pastor anywhere. But, like, people would say that to me or that I'm a shepherd. And so within a week span in January last year, people said it, and one of them was a complete stranger to me, at least that I hadn't seen in years. Okay. And I was like, why would you say that about me? You don't even know what I'm doing right now. Like, I can be crazy. Like, I could be doing something crazy. So I felt that kind of like an affirmation and confirmation, and I started just. Yeah. Getting really excited of what that potentially could be, seeing kind of like my experiences in church being a kind of a reason or grounding work for perhaps what healthy pastors can look like and healthy leadership can look like. And so I went on the journey of, like, okay, how does someone become a pastor? And I Googled it, and it was very interesting. I was like, oh, you don't have to do Much like, not necessarily like, in. In regards to certification, I thought, like, oh, you have to get a seminary. You have to be ordained. And I was finding. I was like, oh, most of the time, you don't. And so I was like, I don't know about that. I still feel very like, I want to be equipped for it. Even if people have been calling me this, I want to be equipped for it. So I was like, lord, if this really is your. The path, then you're going to mix getting to seminary easy. That's what I told him. And so I applied to three seminaries, and I got in. It was Wheaton, Pillar, and Fuller. And I was, like, excited. And then I forgot about it because then I started planning for Sewer Summit. And I was like, nothing else is happening in my mind but Sewer Summit, which is the annual conference I host. And then a week before Sewer Summit, Jess Connelly, she texted me. She was like, hey, I heard you want to go to seminary. And I was like, girl, what. What do you mean you heard? Like, I haven't talked to anyone about this. And she was like, yeah, I heard. So we talked about it. And I was like, okay, well, source time is next week. I can't really, like. And she's like, that's cool. Just send this one text and we're gonna figure it out. And I was like, okay. And. And Denver wasn't even in my. I didn't even know Denver Seminary was a school when I was applying, and it wasn't on my mind, like, cohort style, any of those things. But the Lord is kind, because I could not imagine not, like, being in seminary and not in a cohort, like, yeah, surviving and not being in a cohort with other people to support. And so that's how I ended up here. And, yeah, I work now at my church and so quipped getting equipped in that area, but, yeah, seeing what the Lord does. But I've just really enjoyed reimagining scripture and reimagining church history and. And also unlearning. I'm unlearning some things that, yeah, I thought were true. And, yeah, it's just been really powerful. And I especially love it that I've been doing it with these in. So I'm really. I'm really grateful. And I know we're all different. Every. Everyone has different kind of, like, plans on what seminary will be for them, but I know most of us is just, like, we just want to also, like, know God more and understand him in a way and kind of, like, equip ourselves for the positions that he's given us. So it's been beautiful. It's been beautiful. Yeah. [00:06:33] Speaker A: And if you can do it with, like, your best girlfriends, I mean, truly. I see posts. You know, Jess has been on the show, Jamie's been on the show, Cass isn't. Like, so many of them have been on this podcast. And so I'm, like, scrolling Instagram and I see you guys hanging out, and I have to remind myself, like, they're doing hard work. They're doing homework. I just want to be like, can I come hang out? Like, I just want to come play with everybody. [00:06:54] Speaker B: We're actually so ridiculous, too. And I love it. And I love it. [00:06:58] Speaker A: I love it. [00:06:58] Speaker B: We're so ridiculous. Yeah. Yeah, I love it. [00:07:00] Speaker A: Well, you're showing people, too. Like, not only. And we're going to get into your book and, you know, kind of you. You use the word reimagining, even, like, what church could be, but you're showing people even the highest quote, unquote, like, office as pastor, if that's your goal. It doesn't have to be so buttoned up and so serious. And seminary doesn't have to be so serious. Like, y'all are still just regular people. [00:07:22] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And it's been powerful. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think people. People need to see that tangible example and the fact that they're seeing women because very few women go to seminary. And so even that part is huge. And so we want to also make it, like, seem like it's possible and, like, just like. Yeah, it's not, like, the hardest thing, you know. It's hard. It definitely is hard. But even just to enter into the process and journey, it's not that hard. [00:07:47] Speaker A: I love it. Well, before we get into your book, you mentioned that you are on staff at a church right now. So give us kind of just a little picture of, like, what is your church background and what are you doing currently? [00:08:00] Speaker B: Yeah. So I grew up going to church. All kinds. I grew up mainly in a Presbyterian church with female pastors, which I didn't know, people didn't know. Didn't like female pastors until I was an adult. Maybe like, yeah, maybe like, three years ago. And so that was my lived experience until I was about 14. Then I drastically went a different direction. Ended up in a Pentecostal church. Yeah. Very different from my upbringing. And super, like, I'm Dominican. It was very. A lot of Dominicans there. And then I kind of. Not kind of. I left the faith. I left Jesus. All the things in College. I just didn't. I didn't believe it anymore. I wasn't really grounded in what I believed. And then God in his kindness brought me back when I was 24. So about 10 years ago. And then we found. I was like, all right, I'm all in. Like, if you know me, I'm like, all in when I. When I'm in. Right? Anything. And so I was all in with Jesus. And so we started going to a church in Harlem, a church plant. And a few months later, they were like, we would love to, like, hire you. And so I started working there. That was a really hard experience, really painful. There was some spiritual abuse, some trauma for me, and for plenty, I was a staff, but plenty of also people just that were part of that community. And so we left, and then we ended up at another church that we searched for, and somehow I ended up working there again. I was like, I am not applying to these jobs, but the Lord apparently wants me here. And this is all simultaneously while I'm also still working as a social worker. I'm still in school, but I'm doing all the things. So that's. That's a very New York thing. Like, we're always doing a lot of things. All vocational. [00:09:36] Speaker A: Okay. [00:09:37] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. So I started working at that church, and then that one was more clear of having to leave. And. And nothing. Things. Some things happened, but, like, the Lord more so told me, like, something's going to happen, and I don't want you to be here when it does. [00:09:52] Speaker A: Okay? [00:09:53] Speaker B: And actually, it turned out that way, that something did happen very drastically that really harmed a lot of people. And I was not there. We weren't there. And I'm. And. And it hurt me that happened, you know, that people were there to experience that. But, yeah, we weren't there for that. So we spent. We spent about three or four years looking for a church. We were very adamant about, like, okay, we're not going to do this a third time. Of just, like, not being as intentional about what we kind of prioritize what our preferences are, what we consider. And so we search and search and search. And you would think in New York it'd be easy, but we did it fine for a while, and I kind of gave up at the beginning of last year. And then kind of randomly, I was on a zoom. And a girl that was on the zoom, she mentioned that she was planning a church in the Bronx. And my first reaction was like, absolutely not. Not another church plant. Not another church plant. I've already been a Part of. [00:10:42] Speaker A: Have enough work to do. I'm not. [00:10:44] Speaker B: No, God, no, no, no, God, no. And. And immediately when I. I reacted that way, it was like, to myself. But Holy Spirit was like. Like, are you going to let that be the thing? Like, you're going to let that be the thing? What if this is the place? And I'm like, all right. So he was right. It was the place. And so I didn't let it be the thing. And it's still an adjustment, but we've been a part of it for about a year and a half now. And I just started a few. A few months ago, I started, like, supporting and helping, but then last week, actually, officially, and I'm associate minister. And then in March, we'll be doing, like, the ordination process, but I'm mainly over discipleship and outreach. And so it's a gift. It's. Honestly, it's an. It's an adjustment and a gift because when you've. When you've been in spaces that are unhealthy, when you have arrived to the healthy place, although it is a gift and a blessing because of your. What you're used to, it's an adjustment. Like, you're kind of, like, waiting for something unhealthy. Like, you're waiting for something to. And it's just. It's hard. It's like. It's like I'm experiencing the blessing while also, like, kind of like looking, like, from a background. So it's been an interesting. But I'm really grateful for my pastors because they know that and they see that, and I told them. I was like, y'all real bold. Hire me because I'm outspoken. I'm outspoken. And the fact that y'all still hired me, that shows that they're willing to be humble leaders that listen and that learn. So even that help really encouraged me and affirmed me. So it's been a beautiful experience. Like, we're small. We're a church plan in the Bronx. We love the Bronx. And we're just. Yeah. Seeing what the Lord will do. They're going slow, which I am just so grateful for. I think church planning kind of systems and structures promote this, like, really quick plan. And I just appreciate how slow they're going and how intentional they're going. So that's kind of. Yeah. Where we're at. I did not foresee this at all a year ago, but here we are. [00:12:41] Speaker A: Yeah. God. God tends to do that, I think, when calling people in the ministry. You know, I also. Same, same. I mean, not exact Same story. But this was not my plan, but here I am. [00:12:50] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:12:51] Speaker A: So you wrote a book called I've Got it right here, Being a Sanctuary, available for people to purchase, and I suggest that they do. It's called Being a Sanctuary the Radical Way the Body of Christ Can Be Sacred, Soft and Safe. So, Priscilla, I know that you mentioned a little bit, you know, being in a couple toxic environments, and I think it's really easy to look at the church and criticize it. Right. Especially right now. It's so easy to look at the American church and be like, bad, bad. Red flag, red flag, red flag. Everything's broken. Let's, like, burn it all down. But what is something in realizing that you needed to write this book? Right. What was one of those kind of big red flags maybe that goes under the radar that people tend to miss? [00:13:36] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, there's. There's a lot. But I think one of them is unhealthy leadership. [00:13:43] Speaker A: Okay. [00:13:43] Speaker B: Because really, I. I think a. A church really can't be unhealthy, like, for, like, small little things in different ways. It's really the leadership that would cause it or make it to be unhealthy. Okay. And I don't want people to hear what I'm not saying it's like, oh, like. Because they're like, the central of it or that. No. But I think about, like, my home. Like, my home. As long as my husband and I are healthy, our home will be healthy. Right. Honestly, regardless of my. What's. What my son decides to do. Right. Open here in this house. But if one of us is unhealthy or both of us are unhealthy, even if my son is choosing to be healthy, we are creating a tone and a culture in our home because we are the leadership of it. And so I think that is a component of it. But because in so many spaces, leadership is distance or detachment, detached from much of the congregation, stuff like that. People then maybe feel that they have no authority or power or position to say something or to help the church change in some way. So I think it's. It's that both Ann. Of, like, unhealthy leadership and unhealthy positioning, and then also an unhealthy kind of wall that creates no room for people to maybe say, like, hey, like, maybe could we potentially, like, shift this, or. I'm wondering about this kind of thing. Like, there's just no room for it. I think that's a huge factor in. In not just a church being health unhealthy. And Healthy, but also like how people perceive they want to go to church. Because if they continue to see unhealthy leaders exist and fall and all this stuff, then that's what, what's going to be people's perception of Christianity. I'm talking about specifically non believers. [00:15:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:15:26] Speaker B: And so it's an evangelism issue too, because then we fail at that part. Like, right. We're trying to create a picture and then we're letting unhealthy leaders just stay in their position. So I think that is. It's not the only thing, but I think it's a huge factor in kind of the ailment of the current body of Christ. [00:15:43] Speaker A: I like too that you, you brought up unhealthy leadership. Not from the narcissistic standpoint. Not because that doesn't exist, but I think that's the easy one for people to see. You know, we, I think every person has a name or three or seven that pops into their brain when they think of unhealthy church leadership from a narcissistic or super controlling or manipulative standpoint. I think it's interesting that you talked about it from like a detached standpoint where, you know, you, you can't access the pastor or you have to go so many levels deep that only certain people are allowed to influence or have their ear. You know, it's really hard to have a health check, like a pulse on your church and your people to know what they need and what's hurting them and what their actual, you know, desires are if you refuse to be in relationship with them. [00:16:33] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly, exactly. And this applies to pastors. This applies to elder boards if no one has ever seen them. This applies to, like, leaders. Like, it just applies to any leader just taking their position. And I wouldn't say even that that's taking your position seriously. That's actually taking your position out of the church. You're saying, I'm so high and I'm so above. That's. I'm not even a part of, like, the chur. Church. Church. I'm like a part of this elite group and I'm like, you need. It's not the cl. The club does not exist. You are making the club up. [00:17:01] Speaker A: Right? So we've got two things happening here, right? So we've got local churches and then we've got the big C church. [00:17:09] Speaker B: Yes. [00:17:09] Speaker A: So for the people that are listening, that are like, my church is good. My pastor's cool. I talk to them. We, you know, I can text. I've got Access, whatever. Our church is healthy, but they also then are still hearing these things about like the big C church. How are they affected or how should they be affected to care if their little world, you know, seems pretty good. [00:17:35] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that's a real question. And I think actually that is part of the problem that it's that the people who are in maybe healthy churches or also I would say seemingly, because there, there are several people I would talk to that they would say their church is healthy. And I'd be like, I wonder if I would ask you a few things. We would come to the conclusion that it actually is healthy, you know, and not perfect. Right, right. Not perfect, but healthy. And so it comes to the point of like, okay, this is a body, right? So I think about the body a little bit like a neighborhood. So I live in the Bronx and if there is something my building, you know, for the most part we don't have like as many issues maybe as other buildings. But it doesn't mean that the issues that people are experiencing in other buildings don't affect me because that's my neighbor, that's the person who my child will go to school with, that's the person that I'll connect with or me at the supermarket. Like there's still a being worthy of dignity, worthy of having a home that is just as livable as mine. So if I were to just be like, well, my house, as for me and my house, we're fine, you know, then it becomes a little selfish and self centered and it's and one first enjoy that the Lord has given you that in a place that is healthy, but not in disregarding and not acknowledging that that is happening for someone else somewhere near you. Right? So I think too like obviously like you don't necessarily got to be thinking about like someone in California, whatever, but even just like the immediate people in your, in your friend group, the churches in your city, right? Like that definitely applies to you. The all the churches in the world apply to you, right? Because we're part of the body of Christ, but particularly the people in your life and those who belong in your city. So I think it's, it's seen that like there's a disconnect of like o, those people over there, those crazy pastors over there. Oh, those church hurt people over there. I bet you you have someone who has experienced church wounds on your life, but maybe they haven't even felt safe to tell you because you, you are at a safe church and a healthy church and maybe they don't they don't think that you even understand, so they haven't told you anything. Right. Like, it's acknowledging that you can be experiencing something good and healthy while also still acknowledging that your neighbor is your neighbor, your brother and sister need you, and that you are a part of the health of the church. It doesn't mean that we have to carry the burden of, like, reporting that person in that church over there or whatever. But it, though, there isn't a disconnect. We are not disconnected as a body. We belong to one another. [00:19:59] Speaker A: The neighborhood analogy is so good because I think we tend to go extremes, right? We're like, okay, I'm going to think about my church in my bubble. And then when you tell me to think about the other, I have to go to, like, immigrants or atheists or, like. [00:20:14] Speaker B: Like, you just. You just jumped. Like, I'm just talking about you're. You're the person right next to you. Like, you. [00:20:19] Speaker A: Yeah, we don't have to go to Pluto. Like, we. There are people. [00:20:22] Speaker B: Yes. [00:20:23] Speaker A: Yeah, like you said, I. There are probably people that people know that have experienced church hurt. And yeah, like, let's. Let's let our healthy churches be a model for what it can be and then bring them in. Not because we're trying to grow our attendance or steal from other places, but, like, show them, hey, let me shed a little light on your situation and what could be. And you get to make the choice. But, yeah, I love that. I love that, like, people just write. Not even outside people next door. [00:20:51] Speaker B: Yep. I bet you somebody that you know somebody you know. Yeah. [00:20:55] Speaker A: Yeah. I always love it when guests unknowingly use quote, unquote mosaic terms like reimagine or reclaim or other words that are such a part of who we are as a church that they've become entire sermon series. If you want to know more about how to live out your faith or even rethink it, I've linked up a few of the messages below. Now back to my conversation with Paracels. All right, well, in the book, I knew I had to have you on. The second that I saw the title Being a Sanctuary, because the podcast is called Becoming Church, I was like, same. This is the same same. We're just talking about how to live out actually being the body of Christ. So you've got this broken down into three parts. The sacred, the church being sacred, soft, and safe. And so I just want to talk through all three of those really quick. And the first part about being sacred, you know, moving from passivity to responsibility. You said that we need to repent of ways we've made the church world based instead of Bible based, period. So I am someone who agrees with that statement, but also hates it when people are like, be in the world, but not of it. Because I'm like, oh, gosh, but we are in the world. Like, God put us in the world. [00:22:16] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:22:17] Speaker A: And we're here on, you know, so how do you reconcile, like, the idea of not making the church world based but also recognizing, like, this is where we actually exist? [00:22:26] Speaker B: Yeah. I think if we think about Jesus and the disciples, you know, there's something that I think sometimes is missed in seeing them is that people noticed that they were different. People noticed that they were doing something different. And it pissed some people off and it also intrigued some people. Right. Like, and, and I think that's what they were doing, that they were being sanctified and they were being a scripture based. And I mean, for the disciples, particularly, more than anything, they were learning from Jesus how to do that. But it was noticeable that they were doing things different. That's why the Pharisees were constantly outraged. Right. That they were doing something different. And so I think with, when it comes, being sacred is to be Bible based is to acknowledge our distinction, acknowledge our sanctification, but not from a place of like, we're better than you guys and we're, we're, we're saved and you're not, and we're going somewhere and you're going somewhere else. Like, it's, it's not a competition, but part of our witness, part of our evangelism, and part of keeping the church and the body of Christ healthy is to remain Bible based. When we move to a direction that we look so much like the world, the world will not see the distinction. [00:23:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:23:39] Speaker B: And, and I think, I think it happened like, what was it like in the late 90s, early 2000s, like the Seeker movement. Right. Where like, churches were setting up in a certain kind of way. And I get that to a certain extent. Extent. But what it was doing was bringing people to church. It wasn't making disciples. And so we should want to not fill a, fill a seat in a church on a Sunday. We should want to create a disciple, because that is what the end of Matthew talks about. That is what Jesus has called us to do. And so it includes so many different examples. I include some examples in that section about, like, rest. Like our, our rest should look different in the world. Christians shouldn't be burnt out. Right. And I'm talking about specifically Burnt out from like serving at church. Right. [00:24:18] Speaker A: I was going to say ministry and volunteers. We're the people. [00:24:21] Speaker B: Yeah, that's what I mean. [00:24:23] Speaker A: Don't say this to me right now because now I'm on, I'm on the verge more than I should be. [00:24:28] Speaker B: But I'll admit that. [00:24:29] Speaker A: And I know it's a, I know it's a problem. I did, I try not to glorify it. [00:24:33] Speaker B: But it's different when we live it out versus a system and a structure in a church is created to burn people out. Right. So that's that, that's what I mean too. Like in the world, our, our schedules and our systems, like the amount of days that people get, get off fighting to get a sick day, like all of that structure in the world is created to burn people out. And so we need to make an opposing structure that Jesus says, come rest with me. I will give you rest come Sabbath. Right. So embracing biblical standards in all that we do. Right. Considering uniformity over unit. Sorry, Considering uniformity. Like we want Christians, we take that scripture of Paul saying imitate me as imitate Christ and I feel like we end it as imitate me. [00:25:18] Speaker A: Right. [00:25:19] Speaker B: Like the second half, imitate me, period. No, it's imitate me as I imitate Christ. Right. But we're wanting or expecting Christians all to think, look, speak and be the same when it. The Christianity is so powerfully beautiful because anyone can say yes to Jesus of any tongue, of any age, of any color, of any culture, of any gender can say yes to Jesus. That's huge. So when we create uniformity, we are saying, no Jesus, we're going to limit this access of salvation that you have created. Like that's wild. So being Bible based is to really consider that is to consider what are the principles the Bible has given us to be set apart. Not to judge the world, condemn the world, make the world feel different, but to see, for the world to see that we are different and that this difference brings joy and peace and understanding and a radical change for us. And so I think that's where what it looks like, right. To actually be a Bible based body is to be directed by the Bible, not by what the world has, says, has said is successful or what we think. It works. [00:26:21] Speaker A: Yeah. And being set apart means, like you said, we live differently. Not we are set apart like the zealots who went and like lived in the mountains, like away. It's not set apart physically. It's not like remove yourself from all these people. It's. Yeah, show up differently in the world where you are. [00:26:35] Speaker B: Exactly, exactly. [00:26:37] Speaker A: All right, so the second part, you talk about being soft, moving from collision to compassion. And I think that this is such a relevant, but also can be like a trendy thing right now because there is a whole movement, right, of people talking about things. You know, there's like soft masculinity and there's gentle parenting and mental health conversations and all of these things that I think are actually great. But there's also a group of people that you know are like, well, this is awful and it's weak and you're raising precious snowflakes and all of this stuff, you know. Yeah. So talk to me about in the first section of the book, you talk about we have to like have repentance and accountability and all of that. And then the second session is really compassion. Right. And how we can be gentle. How do you, how did these two things like meld together? [00:27:32] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I think naturally, because in being human beings who are fallen, who sinned, like, I don't think we will naturally necessarily be compassionate. Maybe like women sometimes, for the most part people assume because we're nurturing, but as a whole, as people who end up jealous and don't forgive and all these things like compassion may not be the most natural thing to us, but if we are Bible based, meaning we are people who are in the Word and live out the Word, then we can't not. Compassion is a part of it. You can't tell me you've read the Bible and like you love God and you study the God's Word and you want to live it out and then you're just like, but I'm not going to be compassionate, I'm not going to be empathetic, I'm not going to be gentle. I'm like, all right, well, it seems like you don't have the Holy Spirit because one of the fruits of the Spirit is gentleness. So yeah, I'm not. The math is not mathing. Right. And so it's considering that you can't actually be a Bible based Christian and not be compassionate. Now what, what happens is that people confuse what compassion actually is. Is okay. Right. And I think Jesus gives us the ultimate examples of what, what that looks like to show up for people in their pain. Right. And they're suffering to be present with them, to heal them, to also show dignity to people. Even when Jesus disagreed with people like he wasn't, you know, just. And people could say there's certain scriptures that what he said to certain Pharisees, but Also, let's remember Jesus is Jesus and he's God and he can say whatever he wants. Right? Right. But for the most part, even with his conversations with the Pharisees, they. He still held dignity for them. Most of the time when they would come and try to disrespect him, he answered with a question with curiosity, with really, I think, more than anything, seeing their heart and wanting to heal their heart because I would assume, like, they're just like, messed up. Right. So we see that as an example that Jesus is consistently showing. And so we can't miss that. We can't just be like, oh, Jesus was only one thing. We. We want to put Jesus in the car. Like, he's. He was a savage. He was a radical. He was. He was this. And I'm like, he was all of that. He was all of that. Don't just give him one character and one title. He also says he is gent and lowly in heart. [00:29:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:29:37] Speaker B: He also says that he had compassion over the crowd that were without shepherds. Like, these are the things that Jesus also, His word said. And so it's important to acknowledge the both and of, like, he's not inviting us to be nice. I think that's really important. This is not about niceness. Anyone can be nice. Someone who's not saved can be nice. Right. But niceness is, I don't think is effective in the sense of like. Like it meets people and transforms someone. Life towards liberation. I think compassion does. And I don't just think it. It was my story. Yeah. So I was far, far, far from God. Like I mentioned in the beginning of this episode, you know, I had just like, left the church, left the faith. I wasn't like, oh, a toe in a. No, I was just out. I was like, I don't believe this anymore. Living a really crazy life. And I just had people in my life who I didn't even realize were like, Christian at the time, but. But began to invite me to church, began to like, show me this different version of Christianity that I had not been exposed to. And they didn't condemn me. They weren't saying, like, yeah, you know, because, like, you need to repent and like, your sin from, like, you know, is going to cause this, this and that, and you're like, demon possessed. Like, it was not none of that. It was just like this extension of compassion. And although I was annoyed that they kept asking me to go to church, like, I eventually said yes and then that. Yes. In that moment, going to church that Sunday, like, I gave my life back to Jesus and then post that we could engage in convers around the sins that I was doing and repentance and what it looks like for me and discipleship. Right. Like it. That doesn't go missed. I think people think that they're like. Well, just like, oh, compassion is only, like, trying to be nice. And that's why I'm saying it's not nice. Like, compassion is still talking about the sin, but choosing the right time and being mindful and wise of what that even looks like. Right. Which is why this whole section is about being trauma informed, like being an aware person, a mindful person, and someone who's not trying to attack people. Right. Or make people walk towards repentance. Repentance from a place of guilt or shame, because that's ineffective. And so I. I just have the proof of my life that compassion actually does bear fruit. And it. And I've seen it in my life in extending it to other people and how it has helped people walk away from certain situations and how it's helped people see Jesus. And so no one can tell me that compassion doesn't work. And it's not Christ, like, it's not biblical. I think compassion also is needed in our disagreement in. In one of the chapters in my book, which I kind of didn't want to write in that second section. But I talk about certain things like January 6th and critical race theory and the LGBTQ+ community. And that's the chapter I talk about dignifying while not, you know, having. Having disagreement while dignifying people. Right. And I mentioned those very kind of drastic examples, because those are the ones who I find where people want to most dehumanize and disrespect their brothers and sisters in Christ. Not even like non believers and straight, like they're brothers and sisters in Christ. Right. And so those are examples where we also get to extend compassion even when we're having a conversation where we disagree. And so I think it's a missed thing. Like people are saying. I think people are misunderstanding what compassion actually looks like. And it's not niceness, but it's powerful empathy that really can radically change people and help people receive the Holy Spirit. [00:32:55] Speaker A: Yeah, it's attractive. [00:32:56] Speaker B: Right? [00:32:56] Speaker A: It's not. Listen, if you've never tried compassion, I guarantee you, then you've probably tried the opposite, which is criticism. And if you try to criticize people for their choices, tell me how many of them have actually shown up and gone to church with you? [00:33:09] Speaker B: Tell me, please. We. [00:33:12] Speaker A: We will Wait. [00:33:13] Speaker B: Yep. [00:33:13] Speaker A: Because I'm guessing it's none like, you know. [00:33:16] Speaker B: Yep, yep, exactly. [00:33:17] Speaker A: Compassion. Yes. Gives them a space to exist without shame, to know that they're loved, to know that they can work through all the things they need to work through, you know, but, yeah, nobody is going to come in and be like, tell me all the things that are. That are wrong. Disciple me through shame and guilt and criticism. And. And even if it happens, because it happened to a lot of us in the 90s, I think, like, you know, shame was like the way we got behavior modification but didn't last. [00:33:44] Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. [00:33:47] Speaker A: So also in that section, you have a chapter called Living in Size and Silence. And so you give examples of this kind of conversation. Right. So if somebody wants to have a conversation or try to bring in somebody who's experienced church hurt specifically, and you list all of these things that I think people commonly say or they've heard somebody else say, so they just repeat it, going like, oh, this must be the right thing to say. And then, Chris Ellis, you said, with all the love in the world, it is not about you. So help me know. How can we enter in and share our experiences with someone else without making it about ourselves? Like, what is the balance of not interjecting, but also creating space for our own humanity? Like, in relating. [00:34:36] Speaker B: Yeah. So there's this thing in social work that is called active listening, which I. I would think, and I hope people all think that they're active listening, but most are not. And so the idea of active listening is that you are listening without kind of like a prepared response, but also that your motivation is to love and meet the person and listen to them. And if we're honest, sometimes our motivations to have conversations with people, sometimes, like, for example, someone who's been wounded by the church is like, my motivation is we get back to church. My motivation is they come with me on Sunday day. Your motivation should be that they heal. Your motivation should be that they forgive who wounded them. Your motivation should be that they would be able to pray again and talk to God again and read the Bible again. Like, that should be your motivation. And right in. In listening to someone, because then those are actually things they can do and you can be involved, but they can do them to. For that person to end up going to like church. And that'd be your motivation. You have to do something. Right? So you put your. You put yourself in the seat of the Savior. You put yourself in the seat of the navigator of their healing process. But Jesus is the navigator of Their healing process. Right. You're just a friend that is present throughout the journey. And so I think it becomes that. That what we have to really be honest about our motivations when we're listening to someone and trying to talk to someone. I'm actually having conversation a few days with a friend about something that I just, I know that I want to have a conversation with her. And my only motivation is that, is that she would know the truth. My motivation is not like, okay, and this is going to be her next step and this is what she's going to do with it, and this is then what I'm going to do and follow up. No, my motivation is that she would know the truth because she. She currently does not about something. Right. And so that's what it should be, that it's about the benefit of the person and healing and the grace growth of that person. Now, if you have a personal testimony of a personal story that maybe relates, I would think even that sometimes I think people like, think like, oh, automatically I'm gonna say it. Let the Holy Spirit guide. Maybe you shouldn't. And maybe you should. Right. But let the Holy Spirit guide. Don't just assume, oh, I have a point on that, or I have a story on that, or even I have a scripture for that. Let the Holy Spirit be the Holy Spirit and you be a vessel to be wise and respond. And so I think that's what it looks like. What is your motivation in ministering to this person and talking to them and how can you make the whole picture about them and their next step and their journey? [00:37:09] Speaker A: Yeah. The big thing for me, the mind shift that I had to kind of reach was realizing that it's not my job to save people. Right. Like I grew up, I was like, well, if I bring them to church, they're going to get saved. If I tell them about Jesus. Jesus, I'm not going to know, I'm not going to know for certain that I saved them until I see them walk down the aisle, you know, at youth group, or they put their hand up or they better be crying. Like, if they're not crying coming out of this hell house, like, I don't know, like, we better go through again. [00:37:43] Speaker B: Baptized again. Yeah, yeah. [00:37:46] Speaker A: Put them back under. [00:37:48] Speaker B: Because it's worth on worldly metric tricks and a natural way of seeing results. But we need to look into the supernatural and see, like, well, God has a. Even before I had this conversation with this person, God has been working. [00:38:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:38:02] Speaker B: So even trusting that too, that like you're he's just, he's using that you in the. In the part of the person's healing and journey. But you're not the end all, be all. You actually shouldn't be. Because then you can easily. Not even if we try to be the savior. But you may end up. They may view you as a savior and that's dangerous. Right. And so just pointing people to Jesus on that. [00:38:22] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, that's good. All right. So in the last section of your book, the safety section, we move from observing to responding. This, you know, we're kind of taking these ideas and then going out into the world with it, right. Like pat into our neighborhoods and beyond as we can really start to live out, I would say, what it is that we say we believe and live out the life of Jesus that we say we're trying to live. Like, But I want to know. Priscilla's like, when you talk about the church being safe, safety sometimes can seem so relative. And as a church staffer, as a pastor, I'm like, is this really even possible? Like, is it even possible truly that I can provide safety for every single person who enters my church all at the same time when they all actually need different things? Things, you know, like the mom who wants to bring her kid in feels safe, but the person sitting a row behind them who's now distracted from worship is like, well, this is not. This is not safe for me. So what are churches to do? Talk about. [00:39:28] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:39:29] Speaker A: How we reconcile, you know, accommodating all of these things. [00:39:31] Speaker B: Yeah, that's good. I think so that's a. Actually a really good example of like the baby and someone distracted, Right? Because then I think it's considering like teaching, kind of re. Teaching people what it is. Like, what is church, what is community, what are children? How are children? Right? So for example, on Sundays in our church, we actually, from the pulpit in the. In the beginning say, like, we as a community do not believe children are distraction. And you will hear children in this sanctuary. And we don't. And that's it. And it's period. Like, we don't say we apologize, we hope you don't get distracted. We just say this is what's gonna happen happen. Right? Because part of discipleship and helping people learn and grow is also kind of correcting people's perspectives, right? And so in that section of being safe is like inviting people to be a justice centered church, right? And, and what that means is that this is not a department of the heart of God, but this is the heart of God to consider and know all our neighbors. I don't know why, but like kids are like the most talked about group of people in a way that's like dehumanizing. Like the way we talk about kids, if we talked about the elderly or we talked about specific racial group, people would automatically say that's racist, that's ageist. But the way we talk about kids sometimes is wild to me. And like Dick, justice centered is also including talking about like the dignity of all image bearers. Right? And that child that you think is distracting is your neighbor. Right? They're your neighbor too. And so it really includes like for at least from a leadership perspective is kind of like what is going to be our culture, what is going to be, what is going to be the things that people that is displayed as our values. And also how do we teach this, right? How do we actually like teach it and communicate it? Like is it a part of our sermons? Is it a part of like a members class? Is it a part of like a discipleship class? Is it part of small groups? Like where does this information live as we want to teach the people in that are being a part of a church, that we are a kingdom culture, that we are compassionate, that we are Bible centered, that we're justice centered. Like how do we actually communicate that? And I think sometimes we make it too much irresponsible about everything being in a sermon. And the Bible should be taught in all ways. In announcements, in worship, in prayer, in small groups, in children's church, in next groups, class, in baptism in all forms, right? Like the Bible should not only be taught and displayed on Sunday in a 30 minute message. And so to be a safe church is church is to consider what that looks like on how will we be a safe place? How will we be a place that dignifies all people and is justice centered to every neighbor that were to walk in. Some people might hear this and be like, well, you're not considering the person who is distracted by children. And I would say to that person, I'm like, I want you to spend because you're, you're an adult. I would want you to spend more time thinking about why you think that child is a distraction. And that is the invitation for your discipleship and maturity. And why you and why how these fog machines are in distractions for you. Someone taking a picture of you while you worshiping is not a distraction for you. But somehow a baby is right, an image bearer. And so I think that's also something maybe because I'm in New York And I hear noise all the time, and noise does not affect me. Right. Maybe, like if people live in quieter places. But. But it's. It's such a thing to consider that what we think bothers us or what we think is not safe or is safe. And this might sound hard, it's a little less about us and it's more about what does the Bible communicate about what is safe. Right? Because we're all going to come with our bias. We're all going to come with our perspectives. But a church should not be formed on people's bias and perspectives. It should be formed based on what the Bible communicates a church gets to look like. And so sorry if that makes people upset. [00:43:34] Speaker A: Well, I think everybody. Right? Like, for some people, it might be a kid. I can. I can see somebody being like, listen, I have ADHD or I have whatever, and I'm gonna be distracted by the kid. And I think there's. There's just truth in that. There are other people who probably, you know, our music might be too loud, so we have headphones, like, we have earplugs out in the foyer. I think that's the thing is from the church perspective, how can we not say we're going to eliminate all the distractions or we're not going to eliminate all of the things because, well, then I guess we just walk into an empty room. Like, I don't know. [00:44:06] Speaker B: But how do we accommodate? How can we try to accommodate and consider and consider. So I think it's both ends to consider all people and also invite people to be curious as to what they expect and they're looking for in a church. And what is your why? I actually did a post the other day on Insta Story of, like, asking about fog machine machines. I was like, if you have fog machines in your church, like, tell me more about it. Like, is it. Do you notice it? Do you care? Like, and. And if your church has ever talked about it, like, why do they have it right? Like, even our level of curiosity of, like, why do we do the things that we do in church? And why do the. Why do we accept certain things or some things are not acceptable in church spaces? And so that's something that we get to think about and consider too, because it has to do with people in our neighbor. [00:44:49] Speaker A: Yeah, Priscilla, before we kind of wrap up here, justice being justice centered is, to me, I think the big yes in our churches. We should try to create safe spaces and, you know, accommodate for as many people as we possibly can. But I think this is the biggest one where when it comes to us going out and living out, being the church, we don't attend church. We live the church. We are the church. This is maybe the biggest shift when it comes to people kind of trying to live in a different way. What advice do you have for somebody who maybe is either just now realizing, like, oh, I don't actually do this in my real life or wants to. [00:45:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:45:28] Speaker A: But it feels super daunting to now go, okay, I have to now care about the whole world. [00:45:32] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that is. I use. That's a lot. It's. It's so overwhelming. And I get it. I love that Simple Kids song. Like, he got the whole world in his hands. He's. He's got the whole world in his hands. So let's let him hold the whole world in his hands. And you simply look at your neighborhood, you look at those around you. I think sometimes people think, like, oh, injustice is not happening, like, in my neighbor yet. Yes, it is. I promise you it is. Right? Whether it's a system that's not seen or people that are experiencing, like, let's say, prejudice or injustice in some sort of way. I promise you. Working human trafficking in the human tracking trafficking field for seven years. Human trafficking is everywhere. Everywhere. Especially in this country, right? So, like, we get to have eyes to see and perhaps notice how we can just show up for people in small ways and practical ways, both in our home. Home and in our neighborhoods and in our communities. But it really is like a matter of just, like, opening our eyes. If you were to, like, just notice, like, oh, you see, like, and you're in the supermarket. You see that woman, like, she's counting her coins and maybe she can't afford those groceries. And maybe you're making an assumption and maybe she can. It doesn't. It doesn't matter. Go pay for her groceries. You know, like, it's just a simple of, like, opening your eyes. I remember one day, like, literally my life changed. Like, I was. I'm a New Yorker through and through. I talk fast, I walk fast. I think fast, fast, all the things. And one day the Holy Spirit said, I was walking. He says, slow down. And I started walking slow. And it was actually funny because I was pregnant. So he was probably also telling me, like, girl, you're about. You're about to fall. And I'm walking and I just start noticing so much more than I did before. People think things garbage, like, oh, this thing is broken. Things that I have walked past for a whole year. Sure that I Did not notice before. And so there's also, I think living justly is walking this world slowly and opening our eyes widely to really see what's in front of us and how we can show up. [00:47:36] Speaker A: Yeah, I think, too. You said, you mentioned assumptions. That was a big one for me. Where even still, like, you know, I'll see somebody flying down the road and I'm like, like, slow down, buddy. Like, you're going too fast. Because it. Because I'm a mom and I'm like, this is dangerous. And no, every single person that's flying down the road is not, like, on their way to, you know, the hospital. But I try to check myself and go, what assumption am I making about this person? [00:47:59] Speaker B: That's good. [00:48:00] Speaker A: I was. I had a, you know, a rude phone call or even a random Internet troll. Somebody's, like, going off on me on Instagram. Like, I have to stop and go, what is the assumption I'm making about this person? And then one of the biggest things, which I'm not perfect at it, but I've started doing that out loud. I've started saying those things out loud in front of my kids. [00:48:21] Speaker B: That's good. [00:48:22] Speaker A: I want my kids to start learning. Listen, enough people talk. Think out loud around my kids. Yeah, like, you're also going to hear my thoughts. [00:48:31] Speaker B: Like, let's have a balance. [00:48:33] Speaker A: Because I want them to understand, like, hey, when your friend at school was mean, maybe they didn't get enough sleep. When your friend at school was. Was literally calling you cuss words in third grade, Maybe because that's what they hear from their parent at home, and it doesn't make it okay. [00:48:49] Speaker B: Right. [00:48:50] Speaker A: But let's not make assumptions for people's motivations. Like, let's. Let's. Even if we're assuming wrongly, let's err on the side of grace. And maybe there's something about their story or their experience that we don't know that is seriously contributing to what we do. See now. Now. [00:49:07] Speaker B: That's right. Amen, girl. That's right. [00:49:09] Speaker A: So that's good. [00:49:11] Speaker B: That's good. [00:49:12] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, because the show is called Becoming Church. How can the people listening become the church to the people around them today? [00:49:21] Speaker B: I love that question. And I love the title. When I saw the title, I was like, so my book was actually going to be called Becoming. I was like, good thing it is. So I don't steal your name, but yeah, I. I think it's really considering Jesus. How would Jesus treat these people? How would Jesus see these people? Every person, whether atheist, Christian, Hindu around me. Trans, not whatever it is. Old, elderly. Like, how would Jesus treat this person and what is my heart posture towards them? Like, it would radically change our neighborhoods, our world, our social media presence. Oh, my God. In Jesus time. That if we were to treat people as Jesus did, especially strangers, but then even people that are in our life and close to us. Right. Like, treat them like Jesus would in the sense that you would compassionately, like maybe invite them to consider repentance. Right. And what that looks like, but just in all elements of what it looks like to actually see people as Jesus would. Because he does that with you. Okay. [00:50:31] Speaker A: Right, right, right. Amen. [00:50:35] Speaker B: Amen. [00:50:36] Speaker A: Well, thank you so much for being here. I'm gonna link up your book and Sewer Summit. I think it probably has already passed for this year, but then people can just, you know, find out about it. [00:50:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:50:48] Speaker A: Follow along with you. Thank you so much for being here. [00:50:50] Speaker B: Yeah, thank you for having me and having this podcast. That's. [00:50:57] Speaker A: How funny is it that she almost named her book Becoming Church? I guess that title is still up for grabs now, so maybe somebody should write a book about it. I don't know. What do you guys think? In the meantime, you can find me here every Sunday with a new episode to help you unlearn and relearn what it means to be the church that Jesus called us to be. I have a lot more encouragement and resources and tips for you on my Instagram account Rising Kristen Mokler Young and if you can't find what you need there, just send me a DM or an email at BecomingChurch TV. I'd be more than happy to listen and support you however I can. Thanks so much for being here. And until next time, keep becoming the church to the people around.