Brian Recker: Hell Bent

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:09] Speaker B: Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristen Mockler Young, and my guest today is Brian Recker. Now today we are going to talk about hell and heaven and the afterlife. So I want to give you a heads up that this might be a conversation that rocks your brain a little bit, especially if you've only ever grown up believing in a literal hell and heaven. Ryan is going to propose how maybe Christianity has leaned a little too hard on the existence of a place called hell and how it's gotten in the way of how we're supposed to live here and now in this life as Christians. I'm also going to ask some questions that might be a bit tongue in cheek, but it's for the sake of the conversations. Meaning I'm not necessarily asking for myself. Maybe I'm not even asking for you, but I could be asking these questions for your family members or friends, other people listening who might be wondering those things. Because really, I would love it if this episode helps you open the door to a conversation that you haven't had the words for. You can text it to someone or post it on your social media with an open invitation to not debate a topic and but to get curious about other people's thoughts, just as Brian shares his opinion and his experience with us. Brian Wrecker, welcome to the podcast. [00:01:35] Speaker A: Hey, Kristen, thanks for having me. [00:01:37] Speaker B: Glad to have you. Listen, I should have said, per your Instagram bio, Brian Wrecker, author and ex pastor, welcome to Becoming Church. [00:01:47] Speaker A: Woohoo. I'm all about the church. Let's see what we become today. [00:01:53] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I love it. And actually I want to start right there because I think when people probably hear that you're an ex pastor, they have assumptions. Right. Either that there was like a moral failure or something happened like a crisis of personal faith. So, yeah, tell us about your history. [00:02:11] Speaker A: Crisis of personal faith, Check. Moral failure in some people's mind, like every day of my life is probably so sure. I mean, we would say no, but no, I left in good standing. But yeah, I guess my history starts way before that. My deconstruction journey actually did not start with me stepping out of evangelicalism. I was raised in fundamentalism. And so my dad is an independent Fundamental Baptist pastor. So I kind of started on a different, different point. My starting block was maybe even further to the right than some people's. We all have different sort of starting points, you know. [00:02:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:02:48] Speaker A: And for me Though I don't regret that. I think in some ways it's helpful to have. It was so extreme that it had to be deconstructed pretty early. And so I stepped out of fundamentalism and my first big progressive step was to kind of enter a more mainstream evangelicalism out of fundamentalism, which felt like very extreme at the time. Actually. I was raised in like King James, only no pants on women, you know, no rock and roll music of any kind to include ccm. Like Stephen Curtis Chapman and Chris Tomlin were two. Yeah, like that. I wasn't allowed to have Chris Tomlin CDs. Right. So yeah, I. So that was what I grew up in. And so kind of going to a church with a drum set was like my initial rebellion and stepping outside the box in my college years. Um, and it was, you know, it was really refreshing for me to. In fundamentalism, even though I've come to realize much of evangelicalism actually do really hold very similar theology to a lot of fundamentalists in regards to things like inerrancy of scripture and you know, the atonement and things like that. It really is the surface level stuff like you can't, you know, certain dress and appearance, tattoos, alcohol, things like that, that, that they're more strict on and also just in their messaging. The sermons that I was raised on were not only fire and brimstone, but just very legalistic about what you're supposed to do and what you're not supposed to do. And so for me it was very refreshing in evangelicalism just to have the focus back on grace and Jesus and the gospel, which was really great until I began to realize that some of the problems that I had with fundamentalism were still there. They were just a bit more under the surface, they were a bit more subtle. And it just took me some time to realize that. [00:04:41] Speaker B: Okay, and is that the kind of church that you were. Were you pastoring in an evangelical church? [00:04:46] Speaker A: Yep, I was an evangelical pastor. I. So I started going to this church in about 2009 in eastern North Carolina. I was still in the Marine Corps at the time. I joined the. I joined the Marines as an officer after college and I was very interested in doing ministry and they knew that and they were hoping to go multi site. So I helped launch the first multi site location. As I stepped out of the Marine Corps, I directly went from Marine officer to being a multi site site pastor. So I was a lead site pastor for a newly multi site church. And it was so cute. We met in this little chapel by the sea like, we renovated it. Like, we got these, like, wash bucket sort of light fixtures. You know, we kind of made it very seaside and coastal, which was, like, in 2012. It was the coolest thing. [00:05:31] Speaker B: I bet. Well, that's so funny. You stepped out of the Marines to become a new site campus pastor. I stepped out of the kindergarten classroom to do the exact same thing. So hilarious. Look at us. [00:05:43] Speaker A: Site pastors unite. Yeah. [00:05:45] Speaker B: High five. [00:05:47] Speaker A: And, you know, I really did love so much of that journey. It was more expansive than what I was raised in. So the boundaries didn't. I didn't notice them at first because I wasn't affected by them. I think in retrospect, I can see how those. The platforms didn't feel exclusionary to me because they were built for me. Yeah, it was. It was a whole elder team, you know, and it grew over the time that I was there. They're at like, four sites now. I think it was just the two for a while, and then there was a third, then there was a fourth, and, you know, I was a part of the lead elder team. All the site pastors were part of that lead elder team. It was a group of white men. And because I was raised again in fundamentalism, where that was. That was just so unquestioned, and also because I think my vision of God was very white and very male, it never really occurred to me that there was something wrong with that until, yeah, some. Some things in the frame began to crack and I started to recognize who was that. The system was actually designed to keep out certain voices. [00:06:51] Speaker B: Right. Was there anything in particular, Brian, that you were like? And obviously the very personal, private things of the church, you don't need to give us all the details. But for you, was it more of just like, you started to see some cracks and some things breaking apart, or was there a spec specific instance that you were like, hold on, we're excluding people that should not be excluded more, that kind of thing. [00:07:15] Speaker A: Yeah. So there were a couple. Couple major moments, and the first one is really just Donald Trump's ascendancy to the candidacy. I. I remember when he first announced his candidacy. I actually, I can't remember exactly what the illustration was. I think I might have been preaching about pride or something. So I think I used him as an example of hubris, and it felt like a really safe example because I, at the beginning, when he first announced, I was like, oh, this guy's going to be little flash in the pan. You know, he'll be around for a few weeks. A lot of times there's these joke candidates. It's like, oh, like that's so silly, right? We're all laughing at this, right? And then all of a sudden, after a few weeks, I realized, oh, he, like, he's, he's the front runner. And then a few weeks later, I'm like, oh, the, the people in my church are like, very excited about this. And so it, I began to. All of a sudden, that was the first moment I would say. And so that was. I had just started Pastor in 2012, so this is now 2015, so three years in, I had three very rosy, like rose colored glasses years. And that was the first time I also, I felt it was like a personal rebuke. I think I was naive. I think I had my head in the sand about a lot of things again, because I wasn't personally affected by them. So it was easy to maybe just not go deep on these things. And I just had never been political before that. And I realized how ignorant it was that I was. So unquestioningly. I was kind of a moderate conservative. I would say I wasn't like one of those extreme conservatives. I was just somebody who just did, you know, quote unquote, didn't get that political because I wanted to keep it about Jesus. And I realized that was the first moment where I realized, oh, that's exactly how they want us, so that they can just do whatever the hell they want. Sorry, I don't know if I'm allowed to say that on this podcast. [00:08:50] Speaker B: You can, it's okay. [00:08:52] Speaker A: And so that was the first time I was like, okay, I can't afford to not care about this because they're expecting Christians to just stay out of it and keep it about Jesus so that they can rule these systems with impunity and take them into some very dark and dangerous places. [00:09:07] Speaker B: And yeah, Brian, I love that you said, I think you even said a couple times, like it was all you'd known, right? Like this was all you'd known. The white male perspective was all you had known, so you had never questioned it. And I think for a lot of people listening, they're having that moment. Maybe now be it for whatever their own, you know, personal reasons are. But what was it that kept you? Because you started this conversation saying, I love the church and I know you do. So what was it that even as you're going through this wrestling that was like, I'm not just going to go like middle fingers flying, you know, to the institution as a whole, you obviously, you know, walked away, but you still have a heart for the church. How. How did you hold that tension? [00:09:46] Speaker A: Well, a lot of it at the time was really rooted in relationships. And so there were some negative impulses and some positive ones. The positive ones were that I really did love the people in my church. I, I deeply was in relationship with these people. And I was mournful of the fact that many of them believed things that were actually even against their. Like, for example, there's a sweet man who was in the church, not very educated, blue collar guy, conservative by default, lived in a very poor area and, you know, very rural North Carolina. His wife was having serious health troubles. They did not have health insurance with his job. And it just struck me during that time, like, that was when, you know, Bernie was first talking about Medicare for All, and that was the first time I even heard the idea universal health care. And how sad it is that I didn't learn about the fact that maybe everybody should have health care from Christians. I learned it from a secular person. And in my mind, I'm like, here's a guy who could really use some health care. He could really use health insurance. He's voting against his best interest. His wife has, like, these medical issues and he has no insurance and they're going into medical debt. Meanwhile, he's voting for Trump and not for. And of course, the Democrats don't necessarily even offer universal health care in their party platform either. But it was just obvious to me that there's a lot of. I was very sad. I didn't hate him as a Trump voter. I was sad for the fact that there was so much spiritual blindness that was being perpetuated by people at the top who, they got their trust. They used Christian language, they tried to say this is what God would want. They're using God, really taking God's name in vain, I would say, in order to aim for their political ends. But it became very obvious to me that it was more about power acquisition than it was about the flourishing of people in our country and in the world. Their politics was not about flourishing. It was a politics of power. And if anything, if there was flourishing, it was about really just conversion. Getting people saved for the afterlife maybe would be a goal, but in terms of social justice for this life, that wasn't really on the table at all in our politics. [00:11:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:51] Speaker A: And so I think that seeing the way that real people were being affected and also misled made it very easy for me to still keep my heart very open and compassionate toward them. And, and also I did believe in the Church, I was still having powerful moments of connection with God and other people through the church. I've always loved God's Word. I love preaching God's Word. I love worship, even. I love singing. I mean, just a human. From a human perspective, like, where else besides the church as an adult, are you just singing in public with other. [00:12:23] Speaker B: People unabashedly, just like, yes. [00:12:27] Speaker A: And honestly, like, even getting emotional as a grown man, like, the culture, the world doesn't really let adult men just show emotion in public, but in church, we could sing and feel our emotions and pray for one another, lay hands on each other. In a society, again, where men are not even, like, really permitted to show that kind of physical touch like men, in our church, we would get around in circles and lay hands on each other and pray for each other's fatherhood and marriages, and that stuff was powerful. And, yeah, I think a lot of that we shouldn't be so quick to reject. I want to hold on to so much of that. But on the. On the negative side, the things that held me in were the institutional pressure, the financial pressure, the relational pressure, the fact that this is the whole world, and if I lose this, I lose my belonging, I lose my career. If I. Even if I was going to leave and plant another church, I assumed it would be within that family of churches, that network of churches where I knew people, where I was networked. I didn't have networks outside of that. I had left the Marine Corps, and I didn't want to go back to that. I wasn't interested in that. I loved ministry, and I didn't know, even if I was getting more progressive, I didn't know any progressive Christians or networks or, you know, denominational leaders. That's my whole world. So there is a sense in which many pastors, if you change your mind about a theological issue, you lose your career, your network, all of it. And I like to point this out in many ways, even though pastors have more theological training than regular people, they are less likely to be objective about a theological issue than many people because they have so much at point, some stake in maintaining a particular position. And so a lot of that was involved as well, if I'm honest. And that only became obvious to me in hindsight when I left. [00:14:12] Speaker B: Oh, really? Okay. I mean, that's. [00:14:14] Speaker A: And as I was losing it, once I made the decision to go, it became very obvious, the extent to which I was censoring myself. I was putting a lid on my own growth. All of that became more obvious to me. [00:14:27] Speaker B: I feel like the church as a, you know, ministry for people that are like, that's their job, that's the only place. Maybe I'm wrong, but as I'm like sitting here thinking, I'm like, is that the only place where if you leave your job, you are now like, good luck finding another job in your field. Good luck having any relationships with anybody that you used to have. Like, I feel like if you leave a bank and go to another bank, your life doesn't change. You just go to work in a different way. [00:14:50] Speaker A: I mean, I guess it would be more like being a banker all of a sudden becoming very anti capitalist and recognizing that actually like this whole system is a dirty rotten that I need to reject. And so then it's like, well, what do you do? If your whole career was in banking, that would be maybe more along the lines of what that would feel like. [00:15:06] Speaker B: That's fair. So Brian, you came from this very fundamentalist, then evangelical, you know, if those were your like tent poles, what are your tent poles now when it comes to like your faith, the theology, what you really see God and Jesus and the church being about? [00:15:23] Speaker A: Wow. I mean, in general. Yeah, I love that, I love that question and I think that's a really good. Because I think that in the process of deconstruction, on the one hand, I think some of us are nervous of tentpoles, right? Because I think one of the impulses in leaving a particular black and white dogma is to say, okay, I'm rejecting that particular narrow, discriminatory, exclusionary, shame based dogma. So I need to grab ahold of a better, more liberating, loving dogma and still be black and white and fundamentalist in my thinking. And, and I've really tried to remain very curious and not say, well, I was landed here and now I've landed here and my flag is just as firmly planted in the ground. On the other hand, I think that Jesus does make this somewhat simple for us because every time the conversation came up, what's the whole thing about? What's the whole Bible about? What's all spirituality about? What does God really want from us? What does it mean to be in the kingdom, etc. Etc. Like this conversation came up quite a few times. And each time Jesus actually gave very simple answers. You know, he said the greatest commandment, he gave this multiple times. It's to love God and to love your neighbor as yourself. So I would add in even that self love component as well and that formula and then also gave us the, the golden rule which is really another way of saying to love our neighbors in a way where we're actually putting ourselves in their shoes and experiencing empathy and with people that are unlike us. And so I do think that the love command is the summation of. Of spirituality. Spirituality is about love. And I don't think that that makes. That takes away all the answers because I think different people will come to different conclusions about what is the loving thing to do. But I do think that that needs to be the starting point. And so for me, I still am drawn to. And I'm not just here's where the conversation goes in some bad ways. When you have punitiveness in your theology and shame in your theology, you start to twist the definition of love. Where I think even a fundamentalist would say, oh, yeah, it's all about love, but God is love. But God is also just. And God in God's mercy and his mercy, you know, extends the gift of salvation. It's rejected. God sends people to hell. That's all a part of God's love. So if God's love can include eternal damnation and punishing people for eternity, that really means our love can also include punishing people. Um, and so we're. We're at. We're changing love into something that doesn't even feel like love. Right. So for me, though, the starting point is love. And I have had to learn how to listen to the sound of the genuine in myself to where, okay, that doesn't actually feel like love. And I'm going to listen to myself about that. And so that is probably a new thing as well, is that I grew up in worlds where I had to look to my authorities to tell me what love was, as opposed to listening to the spirit of God to lead me into love, which I believe actually is very biblical. I think that's what God's spirit does. [00:18:26] Speaker B: Yeah, well, and I think even just your example of, you know, love being able to be framed up into pretty much whatever you want it to be, you know, then Jesus did also change it and say, okay, now love your love people as I love you. Which is even harder, I think. And even, like, more, I'm not just supposed to love people as I love myself, because sometimes I don't love myself well, but God always loves me well. And that's how we're intended to love other people. And that makes it a little harder to then, you know, manipulate a little bit. [00:18:56] Speaker A: Totally. [00:19:01] Speaker B: Let me break in real quick for the new thread pullers or people deconstructing the afterlife. It is okay if this makes your head spin a little bit. The beauty of deconstruction and reconstruction and continually learning and growing in Jesus is that you get to decide what feels right for you and when. Now. No, this doesn't mean that everyone has their own personal version of truth or that the truth of God is subjective. But it means that you can trust Holy Spirit speaking to you and revealing things to you. When you're ready, if you're ready to pull on the thread of hell and get curious about what happens if maybe it unravels a little bit bit, then you can read Ryan's book or study some of the other voices that you trust on what they have to say about hell. And if you're not ready yet, that's also okay. Finish this episode and just let it marinate or tuck it away on a shelf in your brain until you're ready to come back to it. There's no timeline or communal ending place that we all have to arrive at. But if you want to know more about who God is and better understand God's heart, there's nothing but time and, and patience and grace for you to do that. And there are also lots of us out here doing the same thing to remind you that you're not alone when stepping out of a comfortable faith feels isolating. Well, you did mention the afterlife. And so I want to talk about your new book. Congratulations. That comes out very soon. It's called Hell Bent how the Fear of Hell Holds Christians Back from a Spirituality of Love. So talk to us about how hell has been previously viewed and taught traditionally like in the Western American church. [00:20:39] Speaker A: Well, I grew up in fundamentalism and in that world hell is very much center stage. I grew up hearing about hell a lot. Not only was it regularly coming up in sermons, but in case you missed it, we had that yearly revival meeting where very much big altar call situation over there. And so I was, I really did have a lot of fear in my spirituality. And for me, in fact, one of my most regularly practiced spiritual disciplines was a fear soaked salvation prayer that I would pray again and again out of a sense of maybe I'm not really in and if I was really a Christian, why would I have sinned in this way? Because Christians aren't supposed to continue in sin. My sanctification is supposed to be up into the right, but as I'm going through puberty, I'm having these thoughts that oh no, I couldn't possibly be saved. And so yeah, I'm getting saved again and again. And the Reality is, though, even outside of fundamentalism, even in mainstream evangelicalism, for all our talk about it's not a religion, it's a relationship. It's about a relationship with God for the most part. When someone comes into a relationship with God in a theological framework that includes hell and really the general idea, there's different ways that people approach it. But at the end of the day, I think you could whittle it down to if you're not a real Christian, however you define that, being born again, experiencing the new birth, you know, regeneration of the Holy Spirit, whatever the case, however you define it, but typically, if you're not a real Christian, you're going to go to hell. [00:22:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:12] Speaker A: So when it comes to the idea of becoming a Christian, should I become a Christian or not? If hell is a part of that decision, if it's a part of that mental model for what's at stakeholders in that decision, it's very hard to say that that relationship with God doesn't have hell right at the foundation. [00:22:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:31] Speaker A: And if we looked at any other relationship, and of course the relationship with God is different from other relationships in various ways, but any relationship that involved coercion, where, listen, if you aren't in a relationship with me, that's great, I'm just going to punish you forever. That's a toxic, abusive relationship. And so when we talk about, I'm working on my relationship with God, a lot of that, to make sure that I'm on the right side of God, because it's like, okay, it's not just, I'm working on my relationship with God or else. And so when you have or else, at the end of any relationship, I don't know that we can really have a very healthy relationship. And so I began to realize that, and it was maybe more obvious to me again because of my fundamentalist upbringing. But I do think that this is also quite common, especially in evangelical camps. This is often how children meet God. Children are often introduced to God with the idea that you are a sinner, God is holy. You can't be in God's presence the way that you are. You actually deserve punishment. And unless you make this decision of faith to be on the the right side of God, you're going to be on the wrong side. And so salvation is often framed in terms of the afterlife, even if we don't try to. And a lot of effort is made by evangelical preachers to say, no, no, no, the kingdom of God is now, and also eternal life starts now. And there's a lot of effort to do that. But I do think that even, you know, and so like there are people, I'll just name names because it's fine. So like for instance, a John Mark Comer. I have a ton of respect for a lot of the things that he's doing. He's trying to reclaim the idea of really following Jesus. Right? That Christianity is about imitating Jesus as, as a disciple under a rabbi, not just an afterlife get out of hell free card. And I agree with that. But I know, I recently read his book Practicing the Way and he says towards the beginning, listen, Christianity is not just about avoiding hell. And of course it is about that. It is, of course there is a hell and you have. But it's about so much more than that. And I think the problem with that is when that's a part of the story at all, that sucks the air out of the room. Because I'm sorry if there is an eternal like actually you've been there 10 billion years and it's only just begun. Punishment, the most severe suffering for an unlimited amount of time. And that is what's at stake for not being a Christian. And then you say, but it's not really about that. It's, it's not really about that. That's not that important actually. That's not the main thing. What do you mean that's not the main thing? What could be more important than think about and, and listen, not everybody thought about it at that level, but I think those of us who were thoughtful about it, we really thought about it. [00:25:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:07] Speaker B: Oh, I'm with you. Every time I like rolled my eyes at my mom or, you know, said something mean to my. I was like, if I don't repent right now and we get in a car accident, I'm going to hell for the rest of my life. It was always there in the back of my mind, always. [00:25:19] Speaker A: As a kid. I remember as like a seven or eight year old learning about the age of accountability, which by the way is not a real thing in the Bible. There's no mention of that. That's a totally made up thing in order to soften the blow of hell. Because the idea that babies and 2 year olds and 3 year olds are going to go to hell for eternity because after all they're born in sin. Right? That's the theology. So they're like, well that, that sounds bad. We don't like that at all. What if there was an age of accountability and that's just a guess based on the fact that we know God is love. They're like, God is love. So maybe God won't send 3 year olds to hell. Maybe, maybe if we're lucky, God won't do that. Right. And so maybe there's an age of accountability where after that age, then that original sin thing really kicks in and you go to hell if you die. And I'm like a 7 or 8 year old and I'm hoping, I'm like, I hope it's like 9 or 10, because if something happens to me, I really want to still be in my grace period. [00:26:10] Speaker B: Right. [00:26:10] Speaker A: And I just personally think those aren't the kinds of thoughts children should ever have to have. [00:26:14] Speaker B: Yeah, fair, fair, fair. Yes. Let's figure out who you are in the world. Let's figure out how you can love like Jesus. Let's not think about how you have to avoid eternal damnation. [00:26:26] Speaker A: Yeah, like you were a kindergarten teacher. How's that working developmentally? What's that doing, what's that doing to our brains? And that was, for many of us, it's hard to separate that from the purpose of Christianity, the purpose of salvation, the purpose of what it means to be even spiritual. And so for many people, I will often get. This is the most common question I get when I question hell and I say I don't believe hell is a real place. Okay, Few very common questions. If there's no hell, what's the point of being a Christian? If there's no hell, why did Jesus even live or die? Right. If there's no hell, then like, what does it matter what you believe at all? I get all those questions all the time, which that to me reveals how for many people it is all about punishment avoidance. If you take away the punishment, well, why do the thing? Why not just rape and murder people if there's no hell? I think we've got a problem if that's where we're landing. [00:27:21] Speaker B: Yeah, that should, that should give people some insight into their own thinking and their own thoughts. If that's where you go first, why don't we just do all the terrible things if there's no chance of getting caught? I think you've got some other stuff to process and work through besides whether or not this place is real. [00:27:36] Speaker A: And so that was one reason I really wanted to write this book was, you know, I love Rob Bell's book Love Wins. And there's been other great books written about universalism and kind of gesturing towards that possibility from Scripture. But I think what was kind of missing was, okay, but if you pull hell out of the story. For a lot of people, the story totally falls apart. It's like a thread. And you pull the thread and you're like, we just unraveled the whole sweater. Like, where'd it go? Where's Christianity? And that, to me, what I say in the book is, Christianity has a hell problem. For a lot of people, the story doesn't make sense without punishment right at the center. Because it's a story based on a punishing God who's got to punish somebody. In that story, it's actually punishment, not love, that's driving the bus. Because the whole story is predicated on the fact that you deserve to be punished. We all deserve to be punished. And God's got to punish. Like that's. His hands are tied. And so the question is, are you going to get punished or is Jesus going to get punished? And so that really becomes the purpose of Jesus. That's why evangelicals often and fundamentalists often do not preach much about the life of Jesus. It is more focused on the death of Jesus. It's less important what he did, who he spent time with, what the focus of his ministry was. And it is really about that divine transaction that occurred. Whatever happened in the spiritual realm at the moment of his death is really the focus. In fact, even many of the creeds, it skips from the virgin birth to the atoning death. [00:29:04] Speaker B: Yep. [00:29:05] Speaker A: What about the fact that the spirit of the Lord filled Jesus to do ministry and preach good news to the poor? [00:29:11] Speaker B: Right, right. [00:29:13] Speaker A: And so I have. [00:29:14] Speaker B: God so loved the world that he gave his only son, not because God so hated the world, actually, for sure. [00:29:22] Speaker A: And so I do have, you know, I talk a little bit about reclaiming the cross and what that could look like. But for me, I would. I also just find so much beauty in the spirituality of Jesus, not just the religion that we've built about Jesus, which is more focused on Jesus, is God was punished in our place, in his death. And so it really ignores what he cared about. The passion of Jesus for me was not just that he was going to die. The passion of Jesus was what he lived for. And yes, he died for what he lived for. Like many great spiritual figures throughout history who die for what they live for. Yes, Jesus gave his life for the kingdom of God. And so that, to me, has become the focus of my spirituality. And not an otherworldly kingdom, but the kingdom of God is about heaven coming to earth. Because the problem isn't in heaven. The problem is here. The hells that we create here. [00:30:17] Speaker B: Yeah, well, without the fear of hell, Brian. I mean, how are we supposed to evangelize and save people and convince them that a relationship with Jesus is worth it? [00:30:27] Speaker A: Right. You definitely lose some of the levers of guilt, fear, manipulation. In fact. Yeah. I would caution you, if you're, you know, an institutional church leader, changing your mind about hell is the worst thing you can do financially in general. It's true. Our churches are often built around the idea of conversion as the main effort of the church. We're counting baptisms, we're counting conversions. I don't think it's wrong to care about how many people get baptized. I'm not saying that you shouldn't care about that. I think it's a beautiful decision. And, you know, it does show the growing community, maybe the spirit at work in the community in some way. But at the end of the day, the mission of the church, I do not believe, is to get as many people converted as possible. And that mindset quickly tends towards superiority and ultimately a kind of colonization where you're unable to enter into relationships, both interpersonal relationships, and even kind of zooming out globally with mutuality and thinking, okay, I have something to contribute in this, but I have also something to receive. And instead you'll end up having that colonizer spirit where. Like the doctrine of discovery in the history of the church. And you can Google that if you don't know what that is, but that was basically when I think it was Pope Leo, maybe the 1400s, basically gave doctrinal sanction to colonization and said, yes, we should go and conquer these other civilizations because they're not Christian, and because the most important thing is to make sure that as many people as possible go to heaven, not hell, then, yes, it doesn't really matter if you are ultimately committing some ethnic cleansing on the side, as long as we're Christianizing these cultures. Because. Because right now, yeah, they might be alive, but they're pagan, and so they're going to die and go to hell, so what good is their life? What would be better? Even if some of them died, even if some of them were enslaved, it would be ultimately better if they got the gospel so that they can go to heaven. That slaveholder colonizing mentality has led to global atrocities, and it is absolutely rooted in the spirituality of hell. [00:32:32] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, well, and I love that you mentioned the mutuality of relationship, because I think so often people don't think that. Like I never did when I was setting out to evangelize or tell people about Jesus. It was always about the other Person. Like, it was always about what I was going to do for them and how I was going to help God save them. I never considered the fact that maybe I also had something to receive back from other people. How do you, how do you, how would you encourage, I guess, people that are listening to interact with non believers if they still want to, you know, help and talk about Jesus and spread the gospel, give us a different way forward instead of attract, like, what are we going on? [00:33:14] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. Like, what is evangelism? That is a tricky one. The good news. What, what, what is I don't believe. The good news is that you're going to go to hell unless you believe like me. I don't think that that's good news. I think that's pretty bad news. And I don't think that that's what Jesus ever did. When, for instance, Jesus encountered the Roman centurion who came to him with, you know, his servant was dying. Jesus was moved by his faith. He was a pagan. He didn't. Well, he wasn't moved by his faith after he converted to Judaism or Christianity. In fact, Jesus said, I've never seen faith like this in Israel. And this is what I, this is what my kingdom is going to look like. And again, his doc, like, they never had a doctrinal conversation. It wasn't like, you've got to believe in Jesus. You have to put me at the center of your life. You have to accept me into your heart or be born again. Or you have to know that I'm going to die for your sins. You're going to stand before a holy God and suffer for your sins. Or there can be a substitute. No, none of that. What was the faith that so ignited Jesus heart in the Roman centurion? My, my belief is that this Roman centurion from a cultural elite background, I mean, he's a Rome. The centurions had a high status within the Roman government. He was overseeing many people. Rome was the colonizing force. They were the empire. Jesus was a homeless peasant and the centurion was a man with cultural power, wealth and prestige. Think of maybe a Marine Corps general or a Navy admiral going to Afghanistan and finding a homeless Islamic old sage and coming to him at his feet for spiritual direction. You don't. It doesn't happen. We don't. That doesn't happen. Why would that happen? No, no, we have cultural superiority. We have ethnocentrism. We have the sense that, no, they need us. Our culture is going to fix whatever messed up thing they've got going on. But this centurion didn't see it. He saw in Jesus a savior. He saw, oh, you're my cultural other. You don't have any of. You're at the bottom of society. And yet there is. I can see that God's spirit is working in you. And Jesus said, that is the faith. That's it. That's the faith that I want. And many said that many will come from the east and the west and gather together at one open table. Many will come just like this guy, just like this, and we'll be together. But who's going to miss it? The sons of the kingdom are going to miss it, and they'll be in the weeping and gnashing of teeth. And I don't believe that that's talking about the afterlife. I think weeping and gnashing of teeth. This is a psychological state of exclusion, just like in the parable of the prodigal son, the older brother who's outside of the party. And it's like the invitation is open. You can come right in. Anybody can get in on this. But we exclude ourselves when we exclude others. And in their nationalism, in their blindness, in their ethnocentrism, in their religious superiority, where they thought that only their way mattered, they couldn't see other. The value and divinity of other people. But Jesus said he saw it. He's getting in on this, and anybody can get in on this. And so he saw. I believe he saw the Good News. The Good News. And seeing that. You know, another great story, obviously, that Jesus tells is the parable of the Good Samaritan. And there's another Good news story. And I think people get this one really backwards, actually. I love to retell this one because a lot of times this. The moral that people draw from the Good Samaritan is that we should love even outsiders, right? Like Samaritans. Because Samaritans were cultural outsiders. And by the way, they were heretics. They were religious outsiders. They did not have the right doctrine. They had bad theology. They worshiped the wrong temple. If anybody was going to hell, they believed it was the Samaritan. But Jesus tells this story. And in that story, it's not that, oh, the Samaritan can. Can be saved too, or the Samaritan can receive love too. No, the Samaritan is the Savior. The way that you receive good news, according to the parable of the Good Samaritan, is by receiving it from the very person that you were likely to reject and despise and write off as that's the heretic. That's the one who's damned. No, no, no, no. We, in our superiority, we're the ones in the ditch. When we are refusing to see God at work in other people in other places, it's like we're in a ditch. And the way out of that ditch, the way to receive the good news, is to recognize, I don't own God. Nobody does. You can't gatekeep God. Anybody can get on this. It's to come up out of that ditch and join the banquet and the Samaritans inside too, by the way. Queer people are inside too, by the way. The people that you are most likely to write off are inside too, by the way. And so that, to me, is what evangelism is, is welcoming people into the inclusive love of God that was always there. But our own blinders of superiority and separation often keep us from that. But the invitation is always open. The Father is always running out to meet us. It's us who say, I don't know. And the Father says, everything I have is yours. Come on in. So I don't know if that answers your question at all. I do think it's. It's. Some ways it's simpler and in some ways maybe more complicated because it's not giving people a formula. It's not saying, hey, pray this prayer, receive this transaction, and then bada bing, bada boom, God's gonna move some numbers around on his divine ledger, his invisible sin ledger. He's. He's counting them all, by the way, and he's gonna move them around, though. So listen, if you just believe this, then these sort of bad things you did, we're gonna move them over here, and you're good. No, it's not a transaction. It's not receiving a transaction so that you can be right with God. The good news is that God is with you. You are God's beloved child. Receiving that word that was spoken over Jesus. You are my beloved child. I am well pleased with you. And recognizing that was always true. I just wasn't always aware of it. And not only about me. That's true about everybody. [00:39:05] Speaker B: Well, and that's what I. What I just wrote down when you were talking to him. Like, we personalize this so much, and whether we make ourselves the hero in the story, like you said, like, we read it and we're like, yes, we're doing this. We're so good at this. We're going to use this as an example of how we're going to save people. And Bring them to Jesus. Never putting ourselves as the one who needs to be saved, the one who needs to be included, the one who needs actually the help, because we're missing it. Or we just take it in just for ourselves. Like, Jesus meant this just for me, when the Bible maybe was written, like, for us, but not to us. And there's a very big difference in reading the stories that way. You know, personal letter versus application. [00:39:45] Speaker A: And Jesus was speaking to his people and challenging his people with warnings and admonitions about, hey, your blindness. And the blindness that it was usually touching on was the fact that the cultural and religious elites ignored the poor and looked down on people of other cultures and religions. And he was always trying to break them out of that. [00:40:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:05] Speaker A: Never once does he tell a single. He has many interactions with people from outside of that world. And he's never trying to say, listen, your doctrine is like, a little messed up, and here's what you need to believe to be okay with God. [00:40:19] Speaker B: Yeah. No, not at all. I'm like, I have so many questions. I'm like, which way do I want to go? [00:40:26] Speaker A: And even when Jesus talks about hell. So, like the Gehenna passages. [00:40:30] Speaker B: Yeah, do it. [00:40:31] Speaker A: So even if. Even if you believe that. So sometimes preachers will say, well, you got to believe in hell, because Jesus talks about hell more than anybody. And I don't believe. I don't believe he did. Jesus talks about Gehenna more than anybody. And so if Gehenna is hell, then yes, but if Gehenna means something else, then then no. But let's say that Gehenna really did mean hell. And I don't believe that it's an afterlife, internal punishment. But let's say Gehenna is a metaphor for hell. Every time Jesus talks about it, it's connected to our behaviors, how we live, and how we treat the poor. It is never connected to what we believe. It's never connected with receiving some sort of substitutionary sacrifice in order to not go there, but go to heaven instead. Never once. So it actually is totally different from even the way that evangelicals tend to speak about how you go to heaven instead of hell. Hell, it's always about for Jesus, what kind of world are we creating? Who are we keeping out? Yeah, the. The two most famous passages where Jesus talks about hell are Matthew 25, where he says, it's about how you treat the least of these. That. That I was the one who was hungry, imprisoned, a stranger. You didn't welcome me. You didn't feed me. You didn't Visit me. And for that, you go to eternal punishment. And the sec. The other major story is the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. It's the neglect of the poor that's right at our gates. That's what leads to Gehenna. [00:41:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:53] Speaker A: And for me, that is not a metaphor. I mean, I'll just tell you, it's not a metaphor for the afterlife. It is about the. The state of our souls in this world and the kind of world that we create for other people. I believe it is a metaphor for hell. Hell on earth. [00:42:07] Speaker B: Yeah, well. And it is about what we do. I think there's like, a. There's a. For me, at least, growing up, sin was still connected, and hell was still connected to my behavior because, like, was I rude or not? What. Is I disrespectful or not? You know, like, on one hand, yes. As long as you prayed the prayer. And I went up for every altar call that was presented to me because I wanted to make sure. I wanted to solidify it. [00:42:32] Speaker A: Was it kind of embarrassing, though? Like, you remember feeling kind of like, embarrassed, like, oh, they probably saw me go up last time. Oh, no, they're gonna see me go up again and again. [00:42:40] Speaker B: You didn't, Brian. Not once. Every time I full confidence, I was. [00:42:45] Speaker A: Like, not me, baby. Not today. I had a real internal conflict. I'd be like, oh, because, you know, the revivalist preachers, they would do that thing where they'd have you pray the prayer in your heart, but then afterwards, there was a bait and switch, and they'd be like, and if you prayed that prayer, go ahead and put your hand up right now. And I'd be like, ah, dang it. Because, like, my church just saw me put up my hand last week. I know he's saying everybody's heads bowed and eyes are closed, but I know you guys are looking around. You're looking around at who's raising their hand right now. And I would think, I don't want them to see me, but also, like, Jesus would want me to raise my hand probably. You know, he wouldn't want me to be disingenuous about it. So better raise my hand for Jesus. [00:43:20] Speaker B: Yep. No, I didn't question anything about faith except for that very one thing. That was it when I remember even dating a guy, and he was like, you don't. You've been in church your whole life. Like, you're. You wear Christian T shirts. You don't need to go up for this altar call. And I was like, but what if this is the one. Like, that was the only time I ever questioned anything. And I was like, but what if you're. What if we just don't know? What if this was the right one? And I'm just gonna not take it. Like, let's just make sure. [00:43:46] Speaker A: To me, the fact that that was ever a part of our spirituality is. Is really grievous. You know, that for us, it was such this. This striving to make sure that we're on the right side of that line and how much time we wasted doing that rather than doing justice, loving mercy, and walking humbly with our God. [00:44:02] Speaker B: Right, right. And that's what I was going to say is now it's like. I think as a kid I thought, okay, well, my behavior in how kind I was, how respectful I am, how many times I raised my hand, that was what was going to keep me in heaven and not hell. But now I've been able to kind of unlearn and relearn. Like, if it is tied to our behavior, it's not about myself. It's about how, like you said, how am I treating other people? How am I de. Centering myself? How am I bringing this love actively to all of the marginalized groups that Jesus actually talked about, not just in belief of my part of, like, oh, yes, I know God loves them too, but what am I doing to insert myself in the story and. And live that love out actively? [00:44:43] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think that's the work that we should be focused on in terms of the kingdom of God. That was, I mean, when Jesus said he, why did he come? Luke 4 is, I think, one of the most central passages that does not really get enough attention, where Jesus announces his ministry and Luke, like, slows down time to introduce this moment. And Jesus says he came to bring liberty to the press and bring good news to the poor. And then the rest of the book of Luke, Jesus is going to various categories of people that could be considered poor. And sometimes that's material poor, sometimes it's social outcasts like prostitutes or lepers. He talks about the blind and the lame, and he says, woe to the rich. In other words, the people that society is leaving out. We have to build a world that works for everybody. And that's why you start at the bottom. Because if you think it's working for everybody, you just have to find out, well, who's being left out of this? And there's always somebody and you put your focus there. And that's how we create a society that works for Everybody. And the kingdom of God is. It is a political metaphor. And we started talking about politics, and I was always told to keep, you know, keep it about Jesus, keep it out of politics. But as soon as you're talking about including who's being excluded, you're talking about politics, because politics is how we organize our life together there. [00:45:58] Speaker B: Right, Right. Yeah. You can. You can be political without being partisan. And I think that's what people need to start figuring out. [00:46:05] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a good way to say it. [00:46:06] Speaker B: Jesus was right. [00:46:07] Speaker A: The gospel is political. I don't believe it's partisan. It's not owned by a party or a single even ideology. Although I think some, you know, that do tend to value a more equal distribution in society, might get closer to it. But I. I would be slow to align it with any particular ideology. I think the kingdom of God is its own thing. But I think that sometimes having that perspective does cause pastors to fail to speak up in moments where I think silence does become complicity. And I think saying that the gospel isn't political at a time when over 80% of evangelicals are aligning with Christian nationalist policies and the Trump administration while they're doing heinous things to immigrants and queer people, I do think at that time, it's like, okay, you know, I hear you saying, well, our citizenship is in heaven, but like, that heavenly citizenship that you say you have, that's supposed to affect life on earth. [00:47:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:47:03] Speaker A: Okay. Too often we're like, oh, we're citizens of heaven. We don't get involved in these things. And it's like, well, what do you mean? That's not a ticket. Your citizenship to heaven is not a ticket to heaven to get out of here. No. That means you're supposed to be representing the values of. Of God, of love and justice on earth as it is in heaven. [00:47:22] Speaker B: Right, Right. Yeah. It's not about getting to heaven and ignoring our entire lives here. Otherwise, like, what's the point of being here? I feel like God would just be like, you're born. You accept me, scoop, like, suck you right up into the clouds. No, we're here on this earth, in this life for a long time because we're meant to bring heaven here. Like, we do. We just forget that whole part, that whole perspective. [00:47:45] Speaker A: It really does. You know, Karl Marx's famous critique of organized religion is that it's the opiate of the masses. And I don't believe that spirituality is supposed to be an opiate, but I think that if your spirituality is accepting the brokenness of the world, doing nothing about it and making sure you believe the right thing so you can go to heaven when you die, then he's absolutely right. That kind of thing is an opiate. And it's actually being used that way right now to tell Christians, listen, the main thing is to make sure that our Christian institutions are strong, to make sure that we put the Ten Commandments up in school and all these sort of superficial things, to make sure Christian supremacy is on top so people can be converted to Christianity. And then at the same time saying, yeah, I think there might be a war in the Middle East. And that's actually a good thing because we want Jesus to come back. And that's one of the signs. In other words, it is not focused on the flourishing of this. This planet and the people living on it. It's an apocalyptic politics that is focused really on getting out of here. [00:48:47] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. How are you able to separate. I mean, we used to be, like, danced around heaven, right? How are you able to separate the two when you're like, okay, I don't think hell is ever what it was presented to be. What about heaven? Like, do you see them as separate? Talk to us about that real quick. [00:49:05] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, in the same way that I, I believe the hell passages are metaphorical, I. I do believe that the. The heaven passages are also metaphorical. That being said, I think that they're pointing to, like, for instance, versus, like in First Corinthians 15, where it says that the last enemy to be destroyed is death, and God will be all in all. In other words, everything will be reconciled to God. That's what it says in Colossians 1 as well, that all things heaven on earth will be reconciled to God. And so there are a lot of universalist passages that point to ultimate reconciliation. And I don't know that we can spell out exactly what that means. I don't believe that the streets of gold are real streets made out of real gold. Personally, I think that's a metaphor. I think the river of Life is a metaphor. I think the Tree of Life is a metaphor. I think the New Jerusalem is a metaphor. I think these are awesome metaphors. That doesn't diminish the reality that it's gesturing towards. But David Bentley Hart famously kind of said that. I don't believe we're supposed to take a single doctrine out of revelation. That's not what it's for. It's not meant to teach us the doctrine. We should draw doctrine from more clear passages. That's an apocalyptic Fantasy. So many of us have these ideas of heaven that are really from an apocalyptic fantasy that was meant to give hope to persecuted people. To me, the simple reality is I believe we came from God who is love, and I believe we will return to God who his love. And so I'm quite agnostic as to the specifics, but I do believe that it would be a bad story if this beautiful universe that God made ended in eternal, never ending suffering for even one of God's beloved creatures. That would make a bad story and a bad storyteller, a bad God who created that story. And I don't believe that's the story the Bible is telling. The story the Bible is telling is a God who is reconciling all things back to love. And so, yeah, I don't exactly know what that means, but I'm here for it. [00:51:03] Speaker B: Yeah. And again, I don't know that we are supposed to know exactly what that means. And figuring out all of the details really isn't the point. Like, I think we've missed it if that's what's the most important to us is knowing all the whens and the ins and outs of this, you know, like you said, this switch from, from one to the other. [00:51:24] Speaker A: I do love some of those images in Revelation, especially, you know, at the very end, which is interesting. After you have the Lake of Fire image, which famously, you know, it's very giving hell. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. But a lot of people think that's the end of the story. There's finality there. But in the next chapter, in the vision of the New Jerusalem, it talks about the. The New Jerusalem's gates will never be shut. That's after, that's after the. And it says the wicked are outside of the gates. So wait, I thought they were burning in the lake of fire. Well, in the very next chapter, chronologically like this is later there, there's the wicked. They're outside the gates. The gates are never shut. And then the Spirit and the bride say, come, Come all who are thirsty, come. Let those who desire the water of life come and drink without price. Come and wash your robes and enter into the new Jerusalem. And the gates will never be shut. And so I don't believe in a final judgment. I don't think there's no finality to judgment ever in the Bible. Every time God brings judgment, there's always restoration on the other side of judgment. God even promises that Sodom will be restored. In Ezekiel 15, Jeremiah says that Gehenna, the valley of Slaughter will be restored and won't be thrown over anymore. And so every image of judgment ultimately concludes in restoration. And so that concluding image of people outside of the gates, the gates are open and the spirit calling out, come. I don't know that that is some literal image that's actually going to happen. Like, heaven's going to have these pearly gates, and, like, the people in hell are, like, able to come walk through them. I do believe this is a spiritual image that is for us today, right now, you want to know what God is doing? God is saying, come. And the invitation is open. [00:53:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:53:07] Speaker A: The doors have always been open. Yeah. And we, like the prodigal son's older brother, often stand outside the gates and we're pouting about who's in there. But the spirit's just saying, come, wash your robes. Lay down. Lay down. The things that. The superiority, the separation, the things that you think are your identity, your. Your race, your nationality, these things are so important to you. That's not who you really are. Who you really are is God's beloved child. [00:53:31] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Who you really are is love. [00:53:34] Speaker A: And when we're loved and responding to the spirit's call. [00:53:37] Speaker B: Yeah. Brian, you've got kids. You're a dad. How are you teaching your kids about the concept of hell? Or even if you're not, there's a chance that they're going to hear it from other places. Right. Like, for the parents that are listening, can you help them a little bit with, like, oh, no. What if I've already taught this? How can. How can I undo it? [00:53:58] Speaker A: Yeah, I. I've had to start with undoing punishment in my own parenting and repenting for. So I grew up being spanked. And when I started parenting in that evangelical world, my sort of guidebook was like, Shepherding a Child's Child's Heart by Paul Tripp, I guess, or maybe, I don't know, one of the trips. I spanked my kids for the first few years of their lives, and I stopped and I repented to them. And I have had to kind of uproot that punishment impulse and instead providing boundaries and safety and guidance and connection. And so I think a lot of it is starting there. And to me, that punishing my kids felt like a very natural, intuitive thing to do, because that's what God did. And so deconstructing hell has been a really helpful way of me even just viewing relationships in general. Different. Different. So I think that's a helpful place to start. And honestly, one of the best books that was Helpful for me in my deconstruction was Dr. Becky Kennedy's good Inside, which is not a. It's not a theological book, but I actually think it is deeply theological. And I found it to be really healing for me. And so as I've reparented or as I'm parenting my children, I'm kind of reparenting myself and also rewiring even the way that I view God as a father. Father. So I think that we do model to our kids more than anything, the worldview, and they're picking up how we. How we act, not just our beliefs. I haven't really had to. I've never. I actually remember when my kids were, like, reaching the ages of like, five or six, and I was still. Or my. My first son was like, 5 or 6 years old when I left the church. And he was getting to that age where it was around the time when kids his age were getting saved like the other pastor's kids. Like, there was another pastor's kid in our church. One of the other pastors, his son got saved at four. He said a salvation prayer. And I was starting to feel like, oh, am I supposed to be, like, coaching my kids in, like, saying this prayer and like, leading them in the sinner's prayer and talking to them, how about they're sinners and God's holy and that whole thing? And I started to feel like I was supposed to be doing that, and I never felt right to me. And I was also wrestling with the theology, undergirding that. And so I never did do that. That. I never laid that out for my kids, that they deserve to go to hell. I've never told my kids that. And so I've been able to just simply tell my kids that nobody deserves that. I don't even think Hitler deserves to go to hell, because I don't believe the sins in one finite life deserve billions and billions and billions of years of eternal suffering. That doesn't. Doesn't actually make sense, even from a justice perspective. So I would. I would say that if you have told your kids about hell and you've begun to doubt the existence of hell, that I think the first step is starting with your own relationship with them and maybe owning some of the ways that you've been punitive and then telling them that, like, I don't want to be like that because I don't believe God is like that. I want to meet you with loving connection because I believe that's how God meets us. And I think that that modeling I Don't know that anybody intuitively is going to come to that hell belief unless it's kind of shoved on them. That fear perspective is shoved on them them. But yeah, those would be my initial thoughts. [00:57:13] Speaker B: No, I think that's beautiful and I think it's really wise because even if your kids don't make the connection now, eventually when they do hear about hell or they do start to have this concept, they are going to be able to look back and be like, oh yeah, mom or dad did this or said this. And they're going to be able to, whether they can or not. At the age we're having these, we think we're having these really important, intense, like parenting conversations and who knows what our kids are actually receiving. But I just keep telling myself, like, if we have these conversations now, and like you said, we model this love now, eventually I hope it sticks in their minds long enough that when they need to reach back and grab examples of these concepts, they'll be able to see it in us. And if we connect it to God's love, then they'll be able to do the same thing, you know, when their brains are ready to make that connection. So, last question for you, which is I, what I ask everyone is because the podcast is called Becoming Church, how can the people listening become the church to the people around them? [00:58:15] Speaker A: I think that in this moment where so much of the outward public face of the church is Christian nationalism, is anti immigrant, is denigrating people of, of sexual minorities, et cetera, I think a forward facing posture right now looks like repentance, looks like including the people that are being primarily excluded and being. Yeah, making it clear that that's not Jesus's posture because I think Jesus is being really poorly represented right now and I don't think we should. The other thing I'll say is like, to not be a church that like pats ourselves on the back for including people that have been historically excluded. Because my friend Stan Mitchell likes to say that if you start including marginalized people, you're not like doing a good thing, you're just stopping doing a bad thing. And like the church that begins to embrace queer people, you know, the church has beat up queer people for years and an abuser who's like punching somebody in the face doesn't stop and then think they're a hero. You know, I think that actually there is a period of recognizing that we've done grievous harm and to begin to try to center and uplift those voices that have been excluded. I Think that's how just like I said to see that the other is not somebody that deserves like our pity and our. Oh, we're gonna. We're gonna heal them. No, in the again the good Samaritan, they're the savior. Like we're going to learn from them. And so it's time to listen again. [00:59:38] Speaker B: Again. Just another way of like we, we center ourselves so much and think that we are the hero. Like I have never heard that it put that way. So I'm like, man, definitely something good for us to think about. Well, Brian Hellbent, how the fear of Hell holds Christians Back from a spirituality of love comes out very, very soon. If people order now and they don't wait for it it on launch day, what special little goodies are they gonna. [01:00:03] Speaker A: Yes. So you have a few more days before launch and the pre order incentives. I'll send you chapter one so you have a sneak peek. There's an essay I wrote the five things that I needed to hear when I first started deconstructing, which can be helpful to some people who are beginning to kind of question some of their beliefs and maybe could use some initial encouragements. And then I also made a little cheat sheet. So in the book, I do do a deep dive on a lot of the hell texts, but I, I just made a illustrated cheat sheet where the top five most fear mongering hell passages, I kind of break down other ways to read them and approach them that I think are more biblical and. And focused on the way I believe they were. Yeah. Just in the historical context as well. So hopefully that'll be helpful. [01:00:44] Speaker B: Super, super helpful. Especially if you're trying to speak out against things, whether that's on social media, in a church or just in conversation. You know, it's almost like the clobber versus Pharrell. And so it's really helpful to know how you can respond. You know, it's great. [01:01:01] Speaker A: I'm glad. Yeah, I was excited about that. Kristin, thanks so much for having me on. [01:01:05] Speaker B: It's been so fun to have you. Thanks, Brian. If I were you, I would grab Brian's book right now so that you can get that cheat sheet to the top five most fear mongering hell texts. It really is super helpful. Another thing that I think will help as you try to reconcile this next life with the one that we're living here and now is simple and it's just rereading scripture and seeing how it's all connected as God's one big story where God is the hero and not the people. When you begin to see the interconnectedness all throughout all of the texts, it's easier to be begin to recognize when verses have been pulled out of context to craft one particular narrative. This isn't something that you can do in one quiet time or one reading. So give yourself grace and space to learn and to trust that if you ask God to help you see new things in scripture, he will. Until next time, thanks so much for listening and keep becoming the church to the people around you. [01:02:08] Speaker A: Sa.