Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Machler Young, and I have two guests on the podcast today. First is Rasool Berry, a pastor in Brooklyn, New York, who is a returning guest to our show. He, with Dr. Malik Blade and Jerome Gay Jr. Have a new book of devotions that are all written from the black male perspective. Since I am neither black nor male, not only do I have Rasool with me today, but also our founding pastor at Mosaic Church, Naim Fazl. He is not black, but he is male and he is brown. While I don't believe that any people group is a monolith, I did think it would make for a more interesting conversation to have both of them here. And I was right. Even if you don't identify as black or male, there is still something for you to learn as you listen in on their lived experiences.
Okay. I am very excited to welcome back one of our favorite guests returning to the podcast. It's Rasool Berry. How are you, Kristen?
[00:01:19] Speaker B: I'm so glad to be here yo this. First of all, thank you for that warm introduction and I'm so glad to be able to join you again and have some fun fun and have a good conversation.
[00:01:31] Speaker A: Yeah. Truly, the last time you and I chatted on this podcast, we ended up talking for so long that I had to split it into two episodes.
[00:01:37] Speaker C: No. Wow. Wow. I'm here to make sure that doesn't happen. Yeah, that's why I'm here.
[00:01:43] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:01:44] Speaker C: Put the smackdown. That's why I'm here. Yeah. Well, they even say smackdown. I don't know.
[00:01:49] Speaker A: I'm not going to ask.
[00:01:50] Speaker B: We, our chemistry, our just vibe was so good. We were just vibing that. And I'm sure that Naeem, that's going to continue with you.
[00:01:56] Speaker C: Right? If it's not smackdown, I'll just step aside. Maybe that's what I'll do. I'll step aside.
[00:02:02] Speaker A: Well, Truly, I'm glad that you're here because we want to talk to Rasool about the book that he has out called Whole Man 40 spiritual reflections from Black Men on the Head, Heart, Hands and Soul. There it is. Look how lovely that is.
[00:02:15] Speaker C: Look at that. Look at that.
[00:02:17] Speaker A: And I, you know, I could have Rasool on. Like I said, we chat, we vibe, we can do a thing. But I was like, I am not black or a man, so I'm not sure how much I actually have to.
[00:02:27] Speaker C: Contribute, but I am one of those things, I am not black, but I am a man. Yes.
[00:02:30] Speaker A: And you are brown.
[00:02:31] Speaker C: I'm brown.
[00:02:31] Speaker B: I'm brown.
[00:02:32] Speaker C: It's different. That's a different.
[00:02:34] Speaker A: It is different.
[00:02:34] Speaker C: I know.
[00:02:35] Speaker A: I do know.
[00:02:35] Speaker B: Just so you know.
And I'm excited because I think we can dispel a few myths about the value of this book. Even though it's from black, that word from that preposition was very important because it's not just saying it's only for black men, saying it's from black men. And I think that in the same way that we benefit from the Hebrew scriptures coming from a very specific ethnic and cultural context, but it was something that the Lord used to reach all nations through this particular ethnicity. Right. And so in the same way that that is true, we can benefit from conversations that are happening in various different cultural and ethnic groups across the board. And even though it's specifically for men, and we're going to get into that in terms of why we design what we. What we design, I still believe that this is something that. A conversation that women need to hear as well, across ethnicity and race as well. So I'm actually glad that we get to kind of have a well rounded kind of conversation around this.
[00:03:38] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I am too. Honestly, we. I've had a couple conversations on this show with, you know, devotions or other things geared toward women. And I always try to preface it to tell the listener, like, hey, if you don't identify as a woman, like, please keep listening because you just might actually learn something. And so the same goes now. You know, I'm excited to learn from both of you and your very different lived experiences that that really is the key. Right. We can learn from the things that we don't understand. So exactly who would you say the book's for then, Russell?
[00:04:10] Speaker B: Yeah, I would say. Well, let me just give you a little bit of background backdrop about why we wrote it.
The reality was there is not a lot of material and content out for men in terms of spiritual formation.
And there was a very big vacuum in terms of addressing issues from an urban and African American context. And so that's one thing. The other thing that we notice is I started to do research for this book and I'm indebted to Barna Group and Better Man. They did a research project around men and what their needs were in the church as well as this is a big social conversation that's happening right now in our culture about the crisis around men. So just give you a couple stats to kind of show how this bears itself out. One, men. In 1990, 3% of men said they had no friends. In 2020, that number went up to 15%. So five times as many men report having a sense of friendlessness. On top of that, when we go to colleges and school enrollment, we have the lowest amount of men enrolled in college campuses now since, like, 1970. Proportionately to women, there's, like, now women make up over 60% of. At colleges, in universities. Yeah.
[00:05:41] Speaker A: Men across the board.
[00:05:42] Speaker C: Wow.
[00:05:43] Speaker B: Across the board. Across the board. Right.
[00:05:45] Speaker C: This is us, right?
[00:05:46] Speaker B: This is United States. Yeah.
When you look at suicide rates, men have higher degrees of suicide. And when you look at the African American context, the numbers have jumped higher, like triple, quadruple than that of their African American women counterparts.
There is just so many different ways in which we are seeing men in crisis right now in society, as there's been just such shifts culturally in terms of the question of what is a man? How am I supposed to function and live? What is my role? As those things have become questioned, challenged, stretched, change. It's just created a lot of sense of, where do I fit in? A sense of lostness. And then when you add to that, men are increasingly not in church and whatnot. And so we saw that there was a sense of crisis that we needed to speak to. And one of the things that came up in that research time and time again, and what we see in the Scripture is the need to break through the kind of facade that we as men should not talk about the things that are going on in our inner world, that somehow that's not as manly, right. That I should be stoic, I should just be, you know, grin and bear it and just not talk about the things that impact me or my internal world. And so that's something that we saw, we needed to talk about, and we needed to confront that myth. Because what we see in the scriptures, I mean, you look at David, a man after God's own heart, and his heart bleeds through the Psalms, right? You know, his struggles with God, his struggles with other people in a sense of even loneliness is there, depression is there. And so. And one last thing I want, I think is important to add, is that when men are struggling with their sense of identity, we have a tendency. And how that culturally shows up is by burying ourselves in work and identifying ourselves and our identity by what we do. Right. And so that's another piece. So as I we sat down to try to think what's what. Scripture could really anchor the message that men need to hear. And I Took it back to the greatest commandment. I mean, that's not a bad place to start, right? When Jesus was asked, what is the greatest commandment? You know, over 500 laws, 612 laws in the Torah, what can it boil down to? And he said, love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your mind, your soul and your strength, and love your neighbor unto yourself.
And I looked at those four components and I said, you know, we need to create a resource that speaks to the wholeness of all of what men deal with, you know, and while those topics are inexhaustible, it literally is summed up the entire law in them. So I'm not. So we're not going to try to in one book say, okay, we got the whole solution to that. But we wanted to at least start. And so we kind of worked it out as head, heart, hands and soul head. We decided to focus on mental health. In light of seeing that sense of depression and even the anxieties that have emerged increasingly in our generations, we want to normalize a conversation about how do we work through the things in us when our thoughts are not like what God's thoughts are about us. And so we wanted to start with their heart. That refers to relationships, right? And our emotional world, our inner world, the types of things that we see David speaking about and sharing about on a regular basis. And Jesus himself, hands. That refers to our vocation and our jobs and how do we have a right relationship with our identity and our work and not an unhealthy one. And also rest, because you can't talk about work without talking about rest. And then lastly, soul, soul in the Hebrew is the word nefesh. And nefesh is not like the Greco Roman idea and concept of soul, which we kind of think of sometimes as you have your body and then the soul is this kind of non physical part of you that kind of comes out. Whereas in the Hebrew mind, soul actually referred to, there was no separation between body and spirit. It was all of you, it was the holistic nature. And why that's so important is when we see in the Psalms, for instance, when it says that, you know, as the deer pants for water, so my soul longs for you.
It's very intentional that the author is using physical body language, thirst to talk about spiritual thirst as well. Because all of those things are interconnected and we kind of know this intrinsically. Like if you know that I pulled an all nighter and I am just, I wake up or I don't wake up But I'm still up the next day. I feel jittery. I'm not going to have a great quiet time. Right. Like my time with the Lord. I'm going to be off. If I'm hungry, I get hangry. Right. And so what happens in my body affects my spirit and my soul. And we need to see those things together as we talk about the struggles with God. And so those are the four components. And then the last thing, because it says, love your neighbor as yourself, one key component that often happens and that men struggle with is the lack of community. Right. We have this idea of being a lone ranger.
And the reality is the Christian life is a team sport, not an individual sport. And we need to be able to be with each other. And so, in addition to the book, we created four video discussions that we designed with men to talk about these things together. We designed a discussion guide so that men could do that together. And so that's. The entire Whole man project is both the book and the video series that deal with us. Heart, hands, you know, head and soul.
[00:11:48] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:11:49] Speaker A: Well, you just unpacked the whole book for us, which I really appreciate. I do want to dig into all of those elements that you talked about a little bit deeper. But first, I want to know from both of you, Rasool, you can go first. What do you think it is? And maybe you can speak to, you know, the black experience, and you can speak to your culture in the Middle east growing up, but what do you think it is that keeps men from opening up and from talking about any of these things?
[00:12:18] Speaker B: You know, I can think about myself.
I was a very sensitive kid, you know, growing up. I just, you know, it was, you know, I could cry at the drop of a hat. And I remember a moment where I was. I got teased so severely for it that like a. Like a faucet, I turned off my tears as a way to protect myself and essentially started to disassociate with that part of me because the world was not safe. I had learned for me to show up emotionally, like, it wasn't manly, it wasn't the right way to be. And so it's taken as I kind of. So that was the lesson that I learned in, you know, growing up and in middle school. And I had to unlearn that when I came to faith in Christ. And when you start to see Jesus as the whole man, the whole man, then you realize, how do you make sense of him at Lazarus funeral, weeping? How do you make sense of him crying out to God in the Garden, you know, and have this idea of a man that is not, that doesn't involve that, it doesn't include that. So it's been a lot of work on a personal level to kind of see things differently. But I would just say initially my own experiences and really challenges with nothing, with people not accepting or receiving that kind of emotional expression for me is why I ended up believing this is not the way that a man should be. I'm curious, Naim, to get your perspective and even what your background is, because I'm not really familiar with that.
[00:13:58] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm born, raised Pakistani, but I grew up in Kuwait, which is an Arab country and grew up in Islam and. Yeah, so. And then coming here, coming to Faith and, you know, having a life changing relationship with Jesus and just really relearning a lot of things. I think, to answer your question, I think for me growing up, you know, I actually grew up on Bollywood music movies. And if you know anything about Bollywood, if you don't, basically there's very clear lines of who the hero is, who the villain is. And the hero is always this guy who comes in, saves the day, you know, and he always gets the girl. And all of the movies are musical. So just imagine every movie is musical. So all that says is that I grew up in a world that it was very emotional. So there was nothing wrong with the emotion to share, to express emotions. That was okay. But for a guy, you always are supposed to be the hero and the hero is always brave. He's always confident, you know, he's got it together, you know, and that's it. He might be misunderstood, but he's always this guy who's, who is, I don't know, he's the main act, you know, and so there's only two ways to go. You either become confident and you're good or you're confident or you're bad, you know, evil.
And so when it came to, I think for me growing up, I mean, I have two brothers, two sisters, and I'm the middle. I'm sorry, I'm the second oldest. So my older brother is older. I mean, older brother is older. Wow, that's profound. Someone write that down.
And yeah, the second one. So I mean, I grew up also in a culture where like the firstborn son is huge. You know, it actually changes the name of the, of my father. My father went from, you know, his name, last name is Fazel to what they would call in Arabic, they would call him Abu Mahmoud, which means the father of Mahmoud. So in terms of, like, how you just change when you have your firstborn son. Your name changes in society. So, I mean, there's a lot to unpack there. But all that to say. I grew up in very emotional culture, which allows a lot of emotion, but there's. There's not much to do with emotion of insecurity or, like, serious doubt, like the dish, like mental issues or mental health. Like, if you were.
You know, if you had trouble, you were just weak. Like, you know, like. So, like, if you had a heart issue, no one would make fun of it, or it wasn't signs of weakness. You were just. You had a heart issue. But if you had a mental issue, there's nothing wrong with you, you know, and see, so because you're not. You can never be that hero. Right. In the story. You can never be that. So there's something wrong. So I think for me growing up, I. I mean, I was like you. I mean, I didn't really hide my emotions, but. And I think I'm pretty.
Like, I have this term. Maybe I can say it here. There are people I know and guys I know that are emotionally constipated. And I was. Not that. I wasn't that.
[00:17:42] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:17:43] Speaker C: But I think certain emotions were hard to express because there was no room for them. There was room for anger. You could be around guys and express anger, frustration, passion. You know, we gotta do this. Ambition, a lot of other emotions. But then when it all turned to, like, hey, I think just wrong with me that there was no space for that among the guys. Make sense. Because no one was like, I don't know what that. What we do here. So let's not even just do it.
[00:18:19] Speaker A: Just ignore it.
[00:18:20] Speaker C: Let's just ignore it.
[00:18:20] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:18:21] Speaker C: Just go away.
[00:18:23] Speaker B: No, that. That does make sense. I mean, it doesn't make sense that we live like that, but it. But I resonate with that approach to life that we have to push up against in order to be whole men.
[00:18:37] Speaker C: Right. And I think your book and the content and the videos are creating spaces for people to have those conversations, you know, to. Like you said, I mean, to have, like, a holistic conversation versus just not the things we're really passionate about, but everything. You know, it's not just a place where you can come together with guys and just talk about your dreams and visions and hopes and plans, but also your doubts and insecurities and your concerns and, you know, and your hopelessness. Mm.
[00:19:12] Speaker B: I appreciate that. Yeah, that's definitely what we were striving to do. And we feel like. And I think the other part to that is everybody is impacted when men are broken and are not moving toward wholeness. Right? Like, that's not just a man issue. The women in their life, whether it's their mother, their spouse, their daughter, their sister, their niece, anybody that they're working with, we're all impacted. It has ripple effects. And so that's why I think it's also valuable for us to have this conversation, you know, not just with men, but with women like you, Kristen, as well.
[00:19:45] Speaker A: Do you think I just. As you were both talking and sharing, like, the word weakness just came to mind, and then Naomi actually mentioned it. Do you think that's a misconception? That, like, weakness is something men are afraid of? Or do you think that it really is, like, the fear of being weak or not being the hero is kind of a guiding principle almost to, like, yes, we can talk about the physical things, but we can't talk about the mental, emotional, spiritual, maybe because it's been presented as like, these are things that you should be able to control. Like, with mental health. Right? Oh, you should be able to. You can't control your health issue, your heart, but you can control this. Do you think that's a narrative that guys have been, like, fed?
[00:20:25] Speaker B: What? Yeah, I think that, you know, as Naeem was talking about, sometimes it's, like, culturally shaped, you know what I mean, in terms of how that. What's appropriate weakness or what isn't appropriate weakness shows up. But. But that same sense of, like, to be the man, you gotta be courageous, you gotta be bold, and you can't have any doubts or questions or insecurities.
And if you do expose those things, you become a target, right? A target for shame, a target for ridicule.
Then it does create a very narrow. I love the way that Naeem, you put it like, we're trying. We need. It doesn't create space for men to kind of. Or boys to kind of flush out what is it that God is speaking to them and doing. And it creates a toxic masculinity, a phrase that we hear a lot now. We want to push back against the notion that all masculinity is toxic. And that's why we wanted to create a book, because it's like, that's all you talk. That's all you hear about. But there is a certain type of. So because what that does, if I have to basically put on this mask that I have it all together, then that means I start to just pretend. And in my pretending, I'm starting to act out of my trauma and my wounds. And I'm trying. And the cultural standards for manhood are not the same as the biblical standards of manhood. Right. So, for instance, obviously you could think of things like, you know, part of being a man, I know growing up in the hood was like having a lot of girls and having sexual conquests and being able to, you know, dominate someone else in, you know, and so physically even and, you know, and not taking anything from off anybody and those type of messages. It's like we need a counterbalance of truth or else that's all that young men will be discipled into. So that's kind of how I see it. Naeem, I'm curious to get your perspective.
[00:22:30] Speaker C: Yeah, I think that weakness is not cool. You know, like, there's no. It just was not cool.
And, you know, coming from a culture where it's extremely patriarchal, where, I mean, even Islam, you know, if you read the teachings of Islam, it's very much like a, literally a, you know, man made religion. The reason is because there's the men are the center of it. You know, we get the bulk of the responsibility and also the bulk of the rewards. You know, even heaven is described just for, you know, men, you know, so saying all that growing up in that there's a sense of like, no. Yeah, weakness is a very bad thing, you know.
And, you know, growing up, it wasn't that no one was like, no one was weak. I think I grew up with a sense of men have weakness, but you don't show it.
[00:23:44] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:23:45] Speaker C: You got to figure out a way not to show it. So there was no, you know, there was no denying the fact that all these heroes either in the. On the movies or people around me or the people in and around, you know, at school, growing up at school, every had weakness. But the thing is, who could show more strength? Who could hide competition? Yeah. Who could hide their weakness? Or in a weird way, it was like, we're the way we. When we hide our weakness, we're actually overcoming it. But that's not true.
[00:24:21] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:24:21] Speaker C: Because you just go, oh, I'm just hiding. And I've been hiding it for a good while. And then you grow up. The guy, the little boy grows up and he's like, you know, it's like he's been hiding it. He's been hiding the tears. He's been hiding all that. And he's like, I'm overcoming it. And he breaks down and it's all over. I think, you know, having, like I said, spaces. But Also having tools for people to kind of go, okay, here's how you acknowledge it and how, here's how you process your weakness. You don't hide it, nor do you not, you know, resist it. How do you actually. With, like, you know, how do you live with weakness? Like, how do you. How does your weakness becomes a strength? By allowing God's Holy Spirit to work, you know, in it. Because that's what the scriptures talk about, that it's in our weakness. He his strong. So there wouldn't be. Like, this is interesting. But like, when Paul says that, you know, that, you know, in my weakness, he's strong, he's basically saying that my weakness is create a space for God.
[00:25:31] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:25:31] Speaker C: To dwell in. So I, you know, so if I can. If I can figure that out and go, okay, if I can share that and say, hey, I'm sharing this because this is where God. Well, this. You'll see God fill it. Yeah, yeah. Instead of me saying, I don't have any, or I just muster, you know, I just cover it up.
[00:25:52] Speaker B: So, so let me just throw that out real quick. In the verse Second Corinthians, chapter 12, in verse 9, and he's talking about after Paul has been praying to the Lord that a thorn in the flesh would be removed, and he gives God's response to him. He said, but he said to me, my grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness. Therefore, I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. This is so good, Naim. What you were just saying, because that's like the heart of the gospel, is that we have to acknowledge that we were too weak to save ourselves and that we needed the one who actually surrendered his life, which they thought was actual weakness, but was his strength because in doing so, he was the sacrificial lamb through which we get eternal life through his resurrection. That when we open ourselves up to that type of power, his. The more we open ourselves up, the more we admit and acknowledge, I need you, God. I need you in my life to be the man that you've called me to be, the stronger that we actually get.
[00:27:06] Speaker A: Yeah, it's funny, this. I don't think this is a blanket statement for, like, women across the board, but for me at least as an enneagram3 who likes to thrive in her high capacity and also is prone to pride.
I am fully aware of all of my weaknesses. But for me, I have to say them out loud. Like, that's been, you Know, I love Instagram. I live on Instagram. And one of the questions that I get from women a lot is like, how can you be so authentic? Like, I love how authentic you are. And I'm like, thank you. Appreciate it. Had to work on it. But also, I do. I do it for them. I want them to be seen. I also do it for me because if I'm not purposely going on there talking about what I'm struggling with and what my weaknesses are, like, y'all won't understand this. But if I don't intentionally show up on my Instagram stories when I have no makeup on, like, I will just fake my way through life of, like, look at me, and I can handle all of this stuff. Does that make sense? So, like, I have to bring my weaknesses to the light, not just in my own life, but, like, where other people can actually see them so that God has space to be on display. Or I would just sail through my life going, like, I got it. Like, look at me.
[00:28:17] Speaker B: No doubt. No, no doubt. And I. And I think that that gets coded in our society sometimes when it comes to men, as, if you're weak, then you're. You're worthless. And you're not, you know, and you're not someone that we want to be bothered with. And that's where redefining ultimate manhood and looking at doing that in community is so important, because, you know, it's hurting people. It's killing people to have to put on this facade. Like, they have it all together and they really don't. Right. And they have all these questions and they have all these doubts. And so we want to create space, as Naim said earlier, but also give to tools like the book and the video to help men in that journey. And the cool thing is I just came from a whole man event that we did in Charlotte this past Saturday, had 62 men there, and they were just kind of gathered and we went through the content, we showed a section of the video and got them talking. And it was just so transformative to see how, you know, how much it just was helping them grow and normalize these conversations about the things that I fear, the things that I struggle with, even the things that I struggle with with God. Right? Like, we need to bring our struggles with God to God and do that in community. And when we do that, we actually become stronger.
[00:29:50] Speaker A: I would love for both of you what I would consider to be strong men to model this actually. Rasool, I'm going to read the four sections again. You said head which was mental health. And here to theological truth. Heart, which is emotional health and relationships. Hands, which talks about vocation and your physical health. And then soul, which is your spiritual health and community. One of my favorite quotes that I always, always go back to when I think about this verse in Marcus, Rachel Held Evans once said, you know, how can I love God with all my heart, soul, mind and strength while disengaging those very faculties every time I read the Bible, right? Like, why would God give me all of these parts of myself only for me to, like, put them aside in order to engage with him?
So for both of you, I would be real curious to know either right now, today, like, what is the one of those four that is the hardest? Or which one do you feel like over your life you've had to wrestle with the most?
[00:30:52] Speaker B: Well, I can start because it's actually not hard for me to identify and it's somewhat ironic and I'm be very vulnerable here because out of the four videos, the one that I led was on Hands that was talking about work and vocation, which was kind of ironic because I would say it's the one that I struggle with the most. Not so much the aspect of, like, whatever you do, do heartily is unto the Lord. That part I got down. It's the other part of that. The, like, on the six days, do your work, but on the seventh day rest part and like the, you know, slowing down, like, that's the part that I really struggle with. And it's. We live in a culture where workaholism is almost a celebrated addiction. So it's kind of an easy thing to say. You struggle with it and people might even give you plaudits for that. Like, oh, he's a hard worker. But in reality, I know the dark side of that. I know what it's like to have my daughter was like, I miss you, when are you coming back in town? Or my wife being like, hey, when are we. When are we going to get some time? Or me just being so burnt out and out of gas that it not only affects me physically, but also I feel distant spiritually. Right. And so. So that particular component of loving the Lord with my strength, I think part of that strength means the strength to resist my urge to always work and to rest.
And that's just a day to day struggle with me. And that's something that I need accountability for and I need support even as I continue to, you know, want to create some more boundaries around myself for that. So. So yeah, definitely for me, it's hands.
[00:32:47] Speaker A: What's a practical thing for people that are listening and they're like, yeah, yeah, me too. What's a quick. Like, what's a practical. That you can get.
[00:32:52] Speaker B: I got you. I got you.
So with Sabbath, I would say turn your phone off. Like, social media unplug, you know, once a week, you know, have a sustained period where maybe, you know, like, I know our church, we do a fast in January and for like, three weeks.
And I know a component of that is always like. And you get to pray about which amount that you know, what are you doing Exactly. Right. So it's not all. Everybody's not eating food for three weeks. I mean, some people do that, but it could just be something else. But I know I always log off social media during that time, and every time when I come back, I feel more focused, more productive, and I feel like it's been put in its right place. So just really fighting for rest, especially once a week, and honoring the Sabbath. That's a big one. But then also trying to figure out ways to diminish the amount of time I'm on these glowing rectangles in our pockets. So that would be my two tips.
[00:34:04] Speaker A: Awesome name. What about you? Which of the four have you had to wrestle with?
[00:34:09] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm glad it was. So you went first, man.
I would say. I would say heart. Okay. Yeah. So if the question is, like, what do I have struggle with the most in terms of loving God, you know, with all of your head, heart, hands, or soul? I would say heart.
Reason being, I feel like I have the tendency of spending my emotions all on people.
And so when it comes to my relationship with God and my times with God, I just want to get stuff done. Like, as in, like, hey, I got to pray about, you know, I don't want to feel anything, or I don't have time to feel anything, or I don't even have time or capacity. I should say, not time, but capacity or don't want to get into allowing the Holy Spirit to kind of make me tender towards this, about this and. Or really make me feel a sense of like, yes, yes, God. You know, you. You are doing, like, you're.
You're doing this in my life. Allow me to kind of tear up or allow me to just kind of, I don't know, feel things, if that makes any sense. Because I'm just spent during the day of feeling everybody else's stuff.
[00:35:38] Speaker A: Right?
[00:35:39] Speaker C: I just don't know. I'm like this. Can we just get on with it? You know? Because I don't want to get all emotional on this, you know, tell me what to do. Tell me how to think.
[00:35:51] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:35:52] Speaker C: You know, are we good? You know, okay. We're good, right? Okay. But that means that it does well.
[00:35:59] Speaker A: And as a lead pastor, too, you carry a lot of extra emotions. I think you carry a lot of burden. The world right now is heavy anyway. Like, there are certain days. The day that we're recording, today, I just. This morning was like, God, I'm. Like, I'm done. Like, it's just. It's hard down here, and everything's heavy and. And I. Same.
So. But then as a lead pastor, I think you have.
Because you are relational, because Mosaic is a relational church, and people know they can text you if they have a problem or reach out or whatever. You carry people's. Other people's emotions as well. So same practical question to you.
[00:36:34] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:36:34] Speaker A: What do you do? What do you do when you catch yourself and you realize, like, I'm not loving God with all of my heart. I'm not saving emotion for him?
[00:36:42] Speaker C: Yeah. I think for me, you know this because I've talked about it a lot to our staff as well, and I feel like people know I take walks at night, you know, and, like, that's my spiritual practice. Like, I'll. I'll go for a walk, and sometimes I'll walk for two hours. You know, partly is because I'm calling my mom or my mom's calling me.
[00:37:03] Speaker A: And that's one hour.
[00:37:05] Speaker C: That's easily one hour. And I'm not even kidding.
I'm not even kidding. Last night, one hour gone, like, you know, but, yeah, it's me walking. And then on purpose, you know, it's nighttime, so there's not a lot things to see. I can easily. I look up at the stars a lot. I look up at the sky when I pray. So looking at the moon when I pray, you know, I'm reminded of, you know, the psalm where, you know, David says, you know, when I consider the heavens, the moon, the stars, if you ordain what is man, that you are mindful of him. So I always have that moment. I can constantly have that moment of, like, God, I look up all the things, how minute I am, you still love me and all that. So that allows me to really get. You know, that's a practical thing. I do. But I also know that it's a practice, you know, and, you know, and I would encourage guys like, you know, I know there's. There's work, there's all Kinds of things and all that. And I know for, like, I'm not. I don't think if I'm disciplined in a lot of things, but if the. But the areas of where I am disciplined, I have seen a lot of great results. You know, I mean, physically I'm disciplined, and I've seen results, you know, spiritually, if I'm disciplined and when I know, okay, I know it's 11:00 at night, but I didn't do a walk and I got to put on my shoes. And I've done that at 11:30 at night. Yeah. But I'm like, okay, even if it's 30 minutes, just go out there. Just go. Just go.
So that's a very practical. And allowing the Holy Spirit to just move. And I mean, I've been just. I've teared up. You know, I've just allowed that kind of space for God.
And then journaling, you know, I've always. I went from a physical, you know, notebook to my computer. And, you know, I always put the date on there and the years. So I have years of journals. But some of that sometimes is sad. I'm like, oh. So I get on there and I go, oh, it's been four months. Yeah, okay. Did not. Now I've been talking, but I hadn't write stuff down. And I'm like, you know, so anyways.
[00:39:27] Speaker A: Yeah, well, thank you, guys. I appreciate your. Your vulnerability, your authenticity here. So this is the first step, right? Getting guys to begin to think about these things and process these things. But then, Rasul, you said that the devotion, you know, emphasizes community over individualism. So how, if a. If a guy picks this up and reads this book, what can they do to start fostering more authentic community where they live?
[00:39:53] Speaker B: Great question. And the cool thing is, in the book, we actually have these QR codes that take you to the videos. So it's a real integrated experience. And we did that because we really do want to prompt men to just share like Naim did with each other, because there's power in that.
In Revelation, where it says that they overcame by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony. And we believe that testimony isn't just the testimony of being consistent and proclaiming Jesus as Lord, but also the testimony of what God is doing in our hearts and in our lives. And when we share that, it helps encourage and support each other. And so one step that we did, we created to help with that, is to watch these videos in a group or, you know, at least share a link with Somebody and say, hey, like, let's. Let's dialogue about this. What. What's something? And we then we created this discussion guide that you can get on our website, experiencevoices.org old man. So that you could download it. You don't even have to come up with the questions. Like, you could just, you know, ask them to each other. And that's what we did on Saturday. We just kind of folks went around. We had printed out the guides, and they were just able to have really deep, enriching conversations, and hopefully those will just start the process of making that a regular experience, because there is something about doing that together that helps to remind us we are not alone and that there's strength in numbers.
[00:41:36] Speaker A: What have you seen at Mosaic? I know after the pandemic, we had to do a lot of community rebuilding, specifically with the men. What's some things that you've seen that have worked?
[00:41:48] Speaker C: Oh, man. I mean, I can tell you what. What you've seen, you know, like, we've had a. We.
I just started texting guys and saying, hey, come over.
[00:41:58] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:42:00] Speaker C: And can I say what I'm gonna say? Come over for what?
[00:42:03] Speaker A: You can.
[00:42:04] Speaker C: I don't know.
[00:42:05] Speaker A: It's our podcast.
[00:42:06] Speaker C: Okay. Whatever. I want to. Okay, great. So, you know, so I. I started.
We used to do these men break breakfast for the men's breakfast on Saturdays, you know. Yeah. Beg the guys to show up. You know, I'm saying, come and. You know, and get a speaker and get this athlete and da, da, da, da, da. And one day, I just told one of my guys, the pastor over, and I was like. I was like, listen, man, if I were doing men's ministry, I'd do it very differently. And. And he was like, what do you mean? I said, I don't even know if we called ministry, honestly, because I would just invite the guys to come over for a drink and a cigar. And he was like, really? And I was like, yeah. And so I just started texting a couple of guys. And then before the pandemic, we mean, we just do this once a month. And I just opened my. I just said, come to my house. And we ended up having 60 guys one night, you know, and it was like. I mean, it was. It was easy. Once a month, it was like 20 to 20 to 50 guys there, and it was a mad house. It was like a frat party. It felt like, you know, but in a very, very good way. You know what I'm saying? It was like, yeah, guys opening up about all kinds of things. And just fostering, you know. So our men's ministry, if you want to call it that went from nothing to like, it's. It's the strongest thing right now, you know, because. And then we. We do. At your husband's house, you know, so it's like we. So it's like one part of town, the other part of town. So we just take and we invite guys to that. And it's a larger group. And I mean, there are people who are recovering alcoholics, you know, and there are people who don't partake in cigars or anything like that. It's not, it's not that, that. It's not about that. And they get it. And it's very much a come. Just be who you are, man. And. And so they're. They're guys who would never hang out together. Hang out together. Yeah, you know, it's really cool. And then also is create a space where people can invite their co workers. And so I invite guys, you know, and I'm like, listen, these. There's a mix of people. It's not all believers by any means. You know what I'm saying? So the conversation could be like, what in the world are you guys talking about? Why are you talking about this? But this is a way for me to get the guys from the gym say, just come hang out with us. And I just give them a heads up. And it's like, hey, listen, you know, it might go crazy conversation. But none of these people, none of these guys have place the space to do this.
Because when they're out and about in, you know, at clubs or bars or whatever, they're either trying to show up or show out or something and trying to get someone. You know what I'm saying? It's like they're on, you know, they don't have a room or space where they can just be like, oh, I don't. I'm not trying to one up at someone. I'm just trying to, you know, I can just be as you can be.
[00:45:03] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:45:04] Speaker C: And so it. That's helped us a whole lot and that. And out of that leads smaller groups.
[00:45:10] Speaker A: Right.
[00:45:10] Speaker C: You know, which has been really great. And I mean, I'm thinking of a guy right now that I'm like, oh my gosh, I need to tell him to take your book and start this group.
[00:45:19] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:45:19] Speaker C: Because I just encouraged him to start his own group.
[00:45:21] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:45:22] Speaker C: But yeah.
[00:45:23] Speaker A: Yeah. I think outside looking in, it's easy to look at our men's ministry and I'm like, air quoting it and go, what in the world are y'all doing? But it really does. There are people who have entered into that space first. They were able to come into this community who now attend on Sunday mornings who would have never come into church before.
[00:45:40] Speaker B: Absolutely. No, that. And basically what you're talking about is you've created space for men to be their authentic selves and to not have to put on and, you know, kind of put on the mask and present the kind of alpha self that they want to project to the world, but where they can just be real. And men are starving for that. Like I said, the stats earlier about loneliness, about friendlessness, I mean, that's real. And so when you can cultivate space where you can say, hey, in this environment, we're actually going to champion, you know, vulnerability. We're going to model looking, pursuing strength and pursuing goals, but not on our own, but with the help and guidance and empowerment of the spirit man. That just creates such a fresh and energetic and new take on what it means, how to do life as a man, that it's been really cool to see the effects of that in my life as I prepared this resource, but also in the lives of others.
[00:46:47] Speaker A: Yeah, Rasool for we encourage the women basically to keep listening at the top of this episode.
So if somebody's listening, whether it's a spouse, a partner, a friend, a parent, whatever, and they're like, I really think that there's a guy in my life who needs help, who needs to start doing this work.
What can they do? Like, I know the easy answer is like, take your book and give it to them. But I also could see certain men maybe being offended by that or not wanting to receive that? Well, do you have any tips on if there is someone listening who's like, I'm concerned that a guy that I care about needs to start doing this work. How could they approach that conversation?
[00:47:30] Speaker B: Yeah, I'll just pull from one of the conversations so that we had this weekend at the event. So we ended up having a table of high school and college age boys slash men.
And the rest were like, they were all brought by their fathers and whatnot. So let's say it was about eight of them. So I asked them two questions. I asked, what was it that you wish that the older men in your life would do more?
And then what is it that you appreciate about the older men in your life? Right.
Their answers were fascinating, but the one that really stuck out and was they wished that their dads, their uncles, their pastors, their ministry leaders would Listen to them more.
And I just thought that was such, I mean, so simple. But like, oftentimes we get into fix it mode as men in particular, sometimes as women too. And so, and people can feel that a mile away when they don't want to be your project. They don't want to be, you know, they want to be somebody that you're, that you have been. They want to be someone that's been heard, that has been seen and engaged and connected with. And that doesn't mean that you can never present a solution or, you know, an alternative to the way that they're doing things, but it means that you don't lead with that. And I think that if there's a, you know, some men in your life that you, you know, kind of could see, man, they could really use some guidance or some direction. Like start by just seeing where they are now, like what, what's. What's on your heart, what's on your mind, and, and then from there you can say, hey, I, I'd like for you maybe to try this on for size. Like, here's another perspective. But once you do it from the standpoint of I've heard, and it's not maybe the same conversation, yeah, maybe it's another conversation, you know, might be even better that way.
But I think being in it to make sure you understand and can connect with who they are and what their soul cries are. There's a verse in Proverbs that I love that says, you know, a man is like a deep well, you know? You know, but a man of understanding draws him out. And so there's this idea that a man's heart and his desires and the things that are going on in his soul is unattainable. Sometimes to get. When you have a deep well, you need to have a bucket. You need to design something with a string to pull that bucket down in order to draw out the water to then scoop it back up again. You can't come to a deep well with just a pitcher. You're not going to get anything right. And so there needs to be skill and insight and thoughtfulness and how to do it. But there is something that is refreshing when that person gets drawn out, when someone can say, you see, you understand because you took the time to listen and hear me and you didn't just try to slap a solution real quick, didn't just try to hit me with a Jesus juke real quick, but that you, like actually, like, heard where I was coming from and responded. That is what actually allows people Souls to be quenched.
[00:50:48] Speaker A: Yeah, that's good. All right, we got to be the bucket. We got to get a bucket. We got to get a string. We got to have all. All the things.
[00:50:54] Speaker B: All the things.
[00:50:56] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, we got heavy stuff that we're going to let you.
[00:51:02] Speaker B: Come on.
[00:51:04] Speaker A: All right, Rasul, last question for you, because the podcast is called Becoming Church. How will reading this book of devotions help our listeners to become the church to the people around them?
[00:51:15] Speaker B: Great question, and I think there's a couple parts to that one.
Jesus is the ultimate whole man, and he's the person that we look to that was incredibly strong, incredibly vulnerable, and completely integrated with mind, body, and spirit. And so the first step is to align yourself in relationship with him in order to live out what it means to be whole. You can't do it otherwise. But the second thing is so cool too, which is that in Ephesians, he's referred to as the head of the church, and we are the body, and so we can't be fully functional. And then Paul would later go on to say that the hand cannot say to the foot, I have no need of you. Right. And so as people, as men, we are interdependent. We need each other as the body of Christ. But then also the head has to be attached to the body. So I have to be submitted and surrendered to him in my heart. But I also need to be in fellowship and in community with others so that I can be fully whole and not just a piece of a person off by myself. And so I think that when we go in that direction, we're able to be more fully human. We're able to be at a place where I'm like, hey, there's this stuff about myself that at this old age, I know I'm never going to change. Like, you know, I'm not a super organized person. I'm going to forget things, I'm going to lose things.
But I can also do things, have some life hacks to make it a little bit better. So now I keep that apple tag on my keys.
Cause I know me, I know I'm gonna have to find it.
So those are the things that we can start to work around our weaknesses a little bit more and work into our strengths. And then also when you're around other people that you can, when you work with them, their strengths can cover your weaknesses. Then we become more and more whole together. And it's not like cover like I'm hiding it and pretending it's not there, but it's like, covering it. Like I'm saying, yo, I know I need you, bro. I need you to help, you know, speak truth to me. I need you to help keep me honest in this way. And when we do that, we see our strengths grow and then our weaknesses diminish and their impact on those in our lives, and we become more and more attached to the head who is Christ.
[00:53:55] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, thank you. I think that a lot of.
Maybe a starting place for these conversations is having somebody to go first. So I just want to thank Rasool and Naeem, both of you, for being here and for modeling that listeners. If you.
Like I said, if you're somebody like me, that's not a man, you're like, this book is not for me. But you think there's somebody in your life that would benefit. We would love for you to share this episode with them. Tag us. Tag Rasool. Make sure you get the book. And thank you to you and all the guys that helped contribute to this.
[00:54:27] Speaker B: Thanks for having me. And it was such a pleasure again to connect with you. And, Naeem, it was great hearing your story as well. I'm sure you probably noticed my first name is also Arabic.
[00:54:39] Speaker C: Yes, it is.
[00:54:41] Speaker B: Yes.
That's part of my testimony and story. My parents had joined the Nation of Islam before I was born, and so I came to faith when I was 17. Faith in Christ at 17 years old. And, you know, that was part of my transformation. My father passed away when I was 7, but my mom is walking with the Lord now, and it's been an encouraging transformation to see in our family. But it makes for some very fun Uber rides, because when somebody sees my name, they're like, hey, Rasul, that's a great name. Do you know what that name means? And I'm like, yeah. And they're like, so, like, you're a Muslim? I go, actually, I'm a Christian pastor.
[00:55:27] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:55:28] Speaker B: How that happened?
Yeah, so it's been. It's been a cool opportunity and a platform to share my testimony.
[00:55:34] Speaker C: Yeah, man, that's. Yeah, yeah, I remember we were talking about that, and I was like, rasul, he means prophet.
And so it's like, huh, yeah, probably he has some background.
Yeah, that's funny, man. Same here. We're, like, just talking about Uber rides and talking about Naeem and Pakistan, you know, Pakistani. And then all of a sudden, Christian pastor. Yeah, it's hilarious.
It's a good story, you know, so, yeah, absolutely. Awesome.
[00:56:05] Speaker A: We'll have to have you all back on again to share all of those stories.
[00:56:08] Speaker C: All of those stories next time.
[00:56:10] Speaker A: Next time. All right, guys.
[00:56:11] Speaker C: Yeah, awesome. Thanks for being here.
[00:56:18] Speaker A: Okay, well, I guess we'll be having them back for another episode. I'll link up videos in the show Notes where you can hear more about their stories. Pastor Naim's first book, Ex Muslim, is available on our resource list on Amazon, which you should go ahead and read before his next book comes out in just a few short months. I've also linked up Rasool's book Whole man, as well as the previous episodes on racial injustice in America and Juneteenth that we had with Rasool a couple years ago. Until next time, thanks so much for listening and keep becoming the church to the people around.
