Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:09] Speaker B: Did you know that you are listening to the same conversation as someone on the other side of the world, maybe even right this second? Becoming Church is an internationally ranked podcast with listeners in over 25 countries in every continent of the world except Antarctica, where there are actually no permanent residents. But hey, if you know of any scientists headed to an international research station or we can make it happen. I'm just saying.
I'm Kristen Mockler Young and this is Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. Each week we explore conversations around faith, culture and the evolving church. And today I'm reaching into our international audience to bring you Valeria Yartanes, who is a Ukrainian PhD researcher, podcast host, and wears the title of Mrs. World Congeniality.
We're talking today about diversity, neurodiversity, and how we can make accommodations for all of the different people that God created in this world. If you aren't used to Valeria's accent, a few accommodations that you could try are either slowing down the speed on your podcast platform or jumping over to watch this interview on YouTube where it might be easier for you to see Valeria speaking with Captions.
I am so happy for you to do whatever works for you so that you don't miss out on this great conversation.
Valeria, all the way from Norway, welcome to Becoming Church.
[00:01:40] Speaker A: Thank you so much for having me.
[00:01:42] Speaker B: Well, you, I know you as Mrs. World Congeniality, which I want to talk about the path that you got there. But also, will you say your full name for us? Because I. I cannot say it the way you say it.
[00:01:53] Speaker A: Yes, thank you so much. And I know it's kind of tricky and I'm having this question all the time. Yes, Valeria, it's easy, right? In the US they call me. Well, my second name is Norwegian1 and I'm very proud of this. It's Jartenes. It's just like the written form. It's the hg. It's actually the first part. It's hard and it's almost kind of a little bit like we write an English heart. It's in Norwegian.
And Yartanes, it means actually kind hearted or something. And I'm so grateful to my husband. I've been carrying this name, I hope proudly for 20 years. So, yes, like kind hearted. So thank you. But he is kind hearted, that's for sure. So God know that. And I hope I can also follow this mission as well. Thank you so, Valeria, thank you for having me.
[00:02:45] Speaker B: Yartanes. Okay, see, but I think names are important. I think it's very, you know, names are a part of who we are. And so I want to make sure I got that, that I got that correct. But tell us the path that took you to becoming Mrs. World Congeniality, because that's amazing.
[00:03:00] Speaker A: Thanks so much. You know, it's actually like everything in this world. I do believe strongly it's connected with faith in God and our destiny. And there is never a coincidence.
It's always the actually predetermined by him.
And it sounds like a coincidence because it's even not me who should have participated at this year. And it was the very first time when Norway participated in this huge contest, which is actually the founder, father of the I think all pageants. It was in Las Vegas. And two years ago it turned 40 years. So actually this is the very first one.
And this is beautiful hotel Westgate Resort. It's huge. Huge stage where actually Elvis and Barbara Streisand were performing all these years. We were also there. And actually my room, even my changing room was exactly the room of Elvis and Barbara. I was like pitch me like, you know, I made in Soviet. I could never actually believed and dreamed of that I could be traveling so far and one day I could be there. But thanks God, I think it's his mission. It was the very same year, very painful year for me when the war broke brutally in my country. I am proud Ukrainian and first Kristin, believe me or not, I was hesitating even to participate. Like first I should have been win like Mrs. Role Norway. And at that time it was very, very painful time in my heart because I have my parents, they're refugees from Ukraine. We have lost everything because we live on the southern part. I have adopted two kids from Ukraine for many, many years ago from two different orphanages.
And they are both neurodivergent. And they have been experienced at that time. Many also like panic attacks, a lot of mental challenges, you know.
And I got this invitation to participate from my very best friend, actually to kind of be substitute for her. Because Mrs. World Congeniality it's not Ms. You have to be married. You. It's a lot of. It's different concept. It's actually about community engagement. It's about your faith, it's about your career and you know, work and impact in this world. And just actually the appearance is just 25% but actually it's your core who you are. And unfortunately you cannot be unmarried or going through divorce. And okay, so she actually at that time went through divorce and she came with a lot of different candidates and I don't know why they were not taken, but she asked me and she knows my. My mission that because I have adopted two kids before and I have established foundation, the Voice of Hope in Ukraine.
And she knows that I'm mission driven person. You know, it was not for show off. And at first I said no, because I cannot be really on the stage and all this like, you know, dresses and everything when my country is suffering so much. And by then I was like reflecting with her. I was talking to my parents, I was talking to my kids. And then I understood, you know, what if God gives me this opportunity to use this international platform and to use my voice, first of all, actually to advocate for the mission, because it was the year the war started, right? So that I can apply to the world to do everything possible to stop this war. And it's still in my seat every single day now and night, you know, and actually I also found it was another mission behind this very powerful pageant that the whole fundings went over. Victoria's Voice foundation and the organizers and the owner of the Westgate hotel chain, now they have lost their precious daughter when she was 17 years old because of overdose.
And they have established this foundation and since then the whole actually fundings from this pageant goes to their building rehabs all over the US and you know, when she delivered me from this angle, I was sold. I was like, okay, okay, yes. Now it's. It's my mission with God. It's. I'm so aligned because for me it's still integrity. Over applause. I'm trying to do, I'm trying. I'm not the best human, but I'm trying to kind of ask and speak to God whether it's aligned with my core values, mission, vision, integrity. If it is. And he says like, yes, you know what, maybe this is also the better opportunity to use your voice. So it actually what brought me there, it was absolutely not actually like egocentric or some individual pattern to win something or even to prove something. No, it was for my, in my head. First of all, it was not competition. I. I dreamt like, wow, can you imagine? I can come there, it will be like 80 queens from all over the world. And I can, I'm hungry always for the knowledge I can learn so much every single day from.
And hopefully if they would like, I can have like lifetime friends in each of these countries later. And I can also share my story, like about my kids, about me Being neurodivergent with OCD and everything. So I believe God used like all these opportunities that we can share and even like, you know, our differences, our pains, our life experience for the great purpose and impact. That's why I, I, I went there, I participated.
And believe me or not, because I, it was not in my plans at all. Usually one country is preparing the candidate like through the whole year, a lot of sponsorship partnerships. I get to know about this contest two weeks before it went two weeks. So I had to pull down everything by myself. I didn't have any sponsorship, any part, anything. My mom, my husband, my kids. That's it. That was my team and my heart and God. And I said, you know what, if I have this mission on this earth, the most important for me in this would be like, what to do actually to be grounded, to pray and to be myself. And it's exactly what I did. I was completely myself. I didn't come to win, to compete. I came to serve and I got this title.
[00:09:31] Speaker B: I love it. I love it.
Yeah, because pageantry I did. I like dabbled a tiny, tiny bit when I was in high school into a couple pageants. And there's a lot that goes into it that people would be surprised to know. So, and I don't. My experience was not your experience where everybody was there, you know, to learn from each other and be hopeful and inspiring. And so I love that that's what, what you are now getting to bring to, you know, the pageantry world.
[00:10:03] Speaker A: But, you know, I would like to precise a little bit. It was like my approach and I thought about it. Sure, right. And I know what you mean exactly. But I think whenever you go, actually, you can always. It's exactly like with the glasses, you can approach from different perspectives.
If you want to find something like, you know, let's put it a little bit negative and you, you know, where your focus go, energy flows.
We are all humans. And can you imagine 80 queens, right.
With the same energy.
And I, I'm absolutely not judgmental or like racistic. I always advocate for actually quality. But we know some countries, some people, they have maneuvers. They have like, you know, Southern, Southern Americans, they, they can express their feelings. It's a lot what's happening there. Like, you know, and if you still approach from not judgmental, but like with the beginner smile, like even in mindfulness, one of the pillars, like beginner smile, like, just try to be open, not to judge whether it's good or bad. But of course, when 80 ladies there and some of them don't even speak English. And you know, it's still competition and, and you kind, you are kind of coming like you know, with this open heart and then very quickly you can actually learn towards whom you feel it. You be very naive, open and humble and. And towards whom you should be a little bit careful. Like you know, it's. It's a lifetime experience that still I believe it's the best what you can experience because it's, it's a lifetime opportunity still. Right. I made beautiful friends like Mrs. Nigeria, my sister.
It was for people who wanted really they found sisterhood there, for people who was not aiming there. They also found what they wanted there. But it's a learning and evolving. Right. It's actually kind of also check up for yourself who you are inside.
But I still believe in the depth of humanity behind it because I know from experience many women, they care. They all of us, we are carrying invisible battles, personal losses, right. Powerful missions. And I realized that if you want to concentrate on the beauty of this and if people still can show up, you know, and bring the face, resilience, empathy and courage to keep up short. Because it's hard also. It's like two weeks. Oh my God. Three times three hours you may be sleeping. It's hard.
It's really hard. But if you still try to find and focus in on the fine goodness like you will find it, but if you focus a little bit different, you still find it.
But I think it's not just about pageantry. It's wherever you go. We are human, we interact, we learn from each other. So I think it's up to you what kind of actual glasses you put. What is approach you want to go with faith and share it. You do it. It doesn't matter. For me it was like the most important. Okay. To wake up and to go to bed and check up almost. Okay. My face still there. My integrity is still there. Like you know, it was like try to test it of course, but like, okay, I still have this. Okay, I'm good to go.
[00:13:27] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you mentioned Valeria that you were already advocating for mental health before you went into the pageant. So what was it that led you to want to start studying it to begin with?
[00:13:40] Speaker A: Thank you so much for this question. It was one of the main cause also why I was there because I decided to be boldly, honestly open about myself, about me being neurodivergent. And I have got my diagnosis almost 20 years ago. Obsessive compulsive disorder.
[00:14:00] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:14:01] Speaker A: Now I'M actually funny ironically try to they take go from this just medical language which is quite hard. You know, like label labeling and painful let's be honest. But also to put it like no ocd but OCS like obsessive compulsive superpowers or even go further. I'm. I'm calling like you know the word delicious but I'm sometimes you know what. But I'm oc delicious. Like you know okay and like I believe like next one will be. It's actually from disciple from the will be here my OC delicious. But okay funny enough but it was not this flourishing journey from the beginning to start it at all. Because like I said already I made in Soviet. I I'm proud Ukrainian. But again we can talk openly right that also cultural context towards mental issues are very different still in different countries. And in my opinion when I start experiencing intrusive thoughts. At that time I had no idea what it was. I was scared to death first time Christine when I experienced that you have no idea. I was so ashamed.
I felt the worst person in the world. I was crying and praying.
I remember when I got my very, very first intrusive thought. It was actually so painful for me because every single summer I went back from Norway to Ukra brain and I was. I was working voluntarily in the orphanage for babies for sick babies where I adopted my first kid.
And then I was like it was my mission from God. It was my purpose. It was my. I don't know like really becoming church was my. My way in this way how I really has been building my life around since I was 16 years old. It was my mission by God. I knew that. And my very first intrusive thoughts.
Guess what, Kristen. That I was harming babies.
Oh because OCD always target your most vulnerable part. Because many people still believe ocd. It's like to get everything like organized, clean, scheduled. But no, it's about rituals. And OCD unfortunately have a lot of different faces like, you know, and ocd it's also intrusive thoughts.
And they can be so ridiculous and they can be so aggressive and they can. Can be so per. Like you have like. You know, they really try to find the most. Most like, you know, vulnerable part of you and like stick you there. And my very, very first was like I was harming baby. Can you imagine at that time I still remember it was October because I had no idea what it was because it's like signaling your brain. Now I know alone because I'm studying neuroscience. That's Why? I started my PhD about neuroscience with Stanford. But at that time, this one milli. Millisecond, it has changed the whole my life because I. Even my body, like, you know, when I saw it, immediately I like the whole body, like, you know, I was frozen, I could not breathe because when I saw what I saw, I could never believe that normal person can. Can get this picture.
And of course I had no idea at that time that it's neurological path or patterns. And we are not actually in charge of our thoughts. We are not our thoughts, we are not our emotions and we cannot control them. But we can after like train our muscle how we can approach them. But at that time, being in Ukraine, I was just 30, 29 years old. Yes. Sitting around all these, my beautiful babies. And one baby was on my knee. And all of a sudden I got this picture.
What happens inside me. I was running. Where? To the church. I was there, Christian, two days and two nights. I was crying, I was praying, I was talking to priests. I had this special services when you confess everything.
And I was so ashamed and I was crying and I was praying to God to give me answers.
How am I supposed to live now when I'm the worst person in the world? Because maybe in my subconscious I would like to harm those babes. So I really like detach all these pictures to myself, to my personality, right. And I even was like afraid to talk to the priest because I believed that he can call and I would be put in this mental institution or something because they will be so scared that I could start doing this because I had no idea.
And my mom, it was in Ukraine, she didn't understand anything. Why all of a sudden she knew I was like visiting Chur very often, like, you know, but why? I like, I just came to it a little bit and again and like she saw that something happened to me. Two nights and two days. I was constantly in church. I was praying to God actually to take maybe my life. I said, God, if, you know, if you want me to live further and my next steps will be doing what I'm seeing. I'm not worth leaving. I don't want to leave. I don't want to live by. For. For her, like, for harming babies. Because I was already one week from. Actually we had like civil court and I was already applied to adopt a baby.
You know, how could I like at that time think how in one week I should become a mother of a baby of one year old with a lot of special needs and what. And I'm seeing Now that I'm like harming her. But now I know a lot of process what has happened from like neurological science and from the stressful hormone like all this. But can you imagine from the point I saw it to actually I was put in mental institution and I was not put. I was like responsible mother myself. I understood that I need the help. So I drove there and said, you know, I need help. I really need help. I want to be the best mother for my kid because I have adopted this baby. But I don't know what to do. I see all these pictures, you know. So my so OCD has changed all my life and now I'm trying also. But you know the phase gave me strength to go through because sometimes those soul suffering and actually lonely journey. Because at that time I felt I was just alone in this earth because I was so guilty and shame to share it. I even couldn't share my mother with nobody. I was so rescue.
[00:20:41] Speaker B: What because you have these two cultures, right? The Ukrainian culture and the Norwegian culture that you're living in. How did they view mental health? Was it just like we don't know. So just go to the institution. Like were they willing to have these conversations or not really?
[00:20:56] Speaker A: Thank you for these questions. It's a fantastic question because I really wanted to reflect on this and I want to express my great deep gratitude to Norwegian system. I, I, I never tried to like, you know, contradict assumption, it's better or worse. But we have facts. Like at that time, yes, in Ukraine we didn't have any really like specialists about OCD or maybe we have some just people who started like you know, talking and approaching mental health from not the lens of shame and guilty and all this because yeah it was like. But for me like you know, still I was like stigma, taboo, prejudice. I for me it took the most profound battle for me was because I was Ukrainian at that time still like mostly Ukrainian wise and white hair even to acknowledge and recognize in self talk that something wrong with me.
I believed I getting crazy and it took many days before I really collapsed and my mom understand that something would go on and we went to the. Actually I asked mom, can you take me to the doctor?
Yeah, we went to the mental institution in Ukraine. And when can you imagine I was so like self reflective. We even drove. But then when I saw it still like Soviet style is like. It's like you know this everything is closed. Like you know all like knives and forks. They are like kind of lean. Like it's really, really this, this picture that you probably just imagine from some like, you know, old films that it really.
But at that time at least, I mean, like I had no choice because I have already a small baby. And I.
It didn't stop. It didn't stop. So I begged about any kind of help, like, you know. But I was so helpful that actually we met this doctor. I explained everything and he said Valera, I know what it is. It's actually. And he presented like OCD first time in my language in Ukrainian. But he said, unfortunately, we don't have therapist. We don't have professionals here. You are not our client, you are not getting crazy.
He said that I'm studying now. I know what is going on with you. But unfortunately, if you have access to be treated in another country. So please do that. And in Norway, I'm so grateful when I arrived they even now and since then, many years ago, they have more compassionate view toward mental health. Why? Because it's very dark country. It's many months of the year, it's completely dark. So we have this like dark depression here and many, many people suffering.
But you know, actually what has changed approach in Norway? The movement. Since it was many years ago.
Norwegian Prime Minister, he was the first one in the whole world. He came publicly and was speaking about his depression.
[00:23:54] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:23:54] Speaker A: Yeah. About anxiety about actually his really mental challenges at that time overwhelm. And he decided specially to share with the population that he need now therapy. He went to mental institution to be a better actually prime minister or you know, community server. He shared that from the point that actually it's not strength, it's. No, it's not weakness, but it's strength to do it. Because now I know. Kristen, can you imagine if people believe. It's weak even for me now to say to everybody all the time, you know, guys, yeah. I have drawn to my mental to mental institution. I was there like for six weeks. I had my like suicidal tendencies. I had this intrusive. So I was harming babies. If people really is actually weakness, please try.
It's actually not that easy at all. But I feel. I feel it's actually it giving me strength and then especially when I can do it. And people approach to me after. Said Valeria, thank you for sharing so honestly. Because it gives us hope because many people we are struggling of over masking, over hiding when we have it.
Because we believe we are so. So we are not worthy. We are like the worst like people in the world. We isolate us. We feel that we don't belong to normal people. But then when all of a sudden they can hear that somebody also experienced that. And it doesn't mean when we are bad persons, it's not our fault. Like, you know, so, yeah, that's why also OCD, when I again came to Mrs. Rolled contest. So I was quite open about this. And even from the very first day we met each other, like, you know, I was sitting with girls and it was like alphabetical, you know, like I said, I've said between Nepal and Nigeria, because I'm Norway. And I shared with them girls, you know, sisters. I actually have this and this and that. And maybe it will be some little bit challenging moments for me as well. I just want you to know that, like, you know, and then they think me so much for that. I was open because they said Valeria will also suffer from anxiety and depression. Can help. Let's help and let's stay together and help each other.
[00:26:15] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:26:15] Speaker A: It was very given for me.
[00:26:17] Speaker B: That's it, right? I mean, even what the work that you're doing, sharing here and on your own podcast, Even if people don't have ocd, but if they feel like they have something else, when you share your story, it makes them feel seen and it gives them permission to say, hey, I need help in a way that is not attached to shame and guilt. And so I think it's really beautiful when people can find the strength. And I understand why. Sometimes it takes time, you know, you want to have answers first and you want to feel like, supported and grounded in what you're saying. But it does, it really does bring freedom to a lot of other people.
So it's really great.
[00:26:56] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:26:56] Speaker B: How has faith played a part in. You said faith isn't part of your life. You know, for a long time you immediately went to the church. How has it played a part in your neurodivergence in general?
[00:27:09] Speaker A: Beautiful question. So genuinely grateful for that. Because for me, it's actually faith became my anchor really, you know, that it helped me through the whole my life. It helped me to stop seeing my neurodivergence at like, really like deficit or taboo or flaw or disability disorder. All these like, you know, labels which you already feel like so bad. And they, they, they, they like, you know, glued to you and you feel even you, you don't want to exist. You feel like smaller and smaller. But then again, when I. Every single morning and every single evening, I'm having like, like my rituals, it's, it's kind of meditation and it brings always gratitude to God and to my faith and actually Even in my really bad times, seasons with adversity. So it helped me to stop seeing like my neurodivergence is something really wrong with me. Like I told you, I ran to the church immediately, right? And instead of, I understand that now. I also do strongly believe that God creates people with different minds, with different uniquenesses, gifts, sensitives and purposes. And actually God wants us to be different, like diversity, biodiversity, look like he has created that the whole biodiversity not just can survive, but right in togetherness because they are different. And it's the same with us. Our brain are wired differently. And I think that it's, it's special mission and purpose by God and faith gave me hope during all these difficult seasons and reminded me that my work, my identity, integrity should never be always rooted in productivity, perfectionism, pressure and all this. Especially now when we have so challenging time social media has created for our brains. Oh my God, there is so much noise, there is so much created filter, mask, pictures, highlighted reels, you name it, which is actually not true. But our brain like reflects and remains in pictures.
It's like stimulation when we just scroll so quickly our brain capture it.
And of course, if you just open the page and you are not prepared for me now, if I don't have special regulation in the morning, like you know, talking to God, going through gratitude for what I already have, if I start with my like scrolling or something, I basically, I cannot because, you know, I know inside my consciousness not. This is not true. What is like Instagram, it's not true. Basically something is true. We can. And I'm thankful to God that you and me, we have met. Of course it's always double sword switch. But we have to proceed and prepare us right?
So, and faith give me every single day now anchors like my steady, my grounding, like, okay, but I can always return to my faith. Like, but why am I here? Why am I. What is my purpose? What is my mission?
How I can really stop all these loops Kind of comparing myself immediately with all these people which suddenly I believe they succeed. They are much better than me because ocd, you can never outgrow grown. It's like, it's like, you know, it's always with you and you should kind of regulate it. And of course if you see all these highlighted reals, you believe like, oh, oh my God, immediate immediately impulse that everybody else are better than you, right?
I don't know. But I think many people experience that. And especially for our teenagers, it's so difficult now because they don't know what is true? They have never lived in authentic world. And faith give me like oh thanks God. I know what is real, what is authentical, what is my purpose, vision, mission. And I don't have to be really actually all the time compared with other people because everybody else are taken. It's just one one of me and I have my purpose and my purpose. I love it. I have adopted two kids. It's exactly what I wished. When I was 16 years old I was pregnant, praying to God to help me to do this. I'm doing this every day. So I, it's anchoring me like back and even like you know, even now I know from neuroscience what means prayer actually what's happening in like with hormones, cortisol, all that stuff. Even like you know it's so, so important to have faith, to have your rituals, your praying and, and believe in that, really believe in that. So yeah it, I think it's for me it's the foundation and it's my anchor. And I wish that people really find it doesn't matter how you call it actually special names but if you have your faith in the, the great creator light. I do believe in God. Right. But as long as the same like it's enveloped in love, compassion, kindness, sharing, as long I think it's. Soon as people find this, this, this greater mission than themselves, the better will be life for them. I think especially now in this challenging world, a lot of uncertainty, pressure, wars, everybody try to divide each other. I think church and God actually here to combine.
Yeah.
[00:32:47] Speaker B: It brings us unified, it makes us unified.
[00:32:49] Speaker A: Unified. Yeah. You combine and unify. Yeah.
[00:32:52] Speaker B: Well, Valeria and I, I know it's going to be a little different, you know, here in the States versus where you are, but still there's, there's churches everywhere. Right. And I know that for, for people with OCD or other forms of anxiety related neurodivergence, religion can be scary sometimes.
You know, maybe because they don't know the rituals, they don't know what to do or for any variety of reasons, maybe they're going to feel judged. What do you think that churches can do like pastors and ministry leaders to make the church environments more inclusive, you know, without alienating people to like a specific section of the, of the room.
[00:33:32] Speaker A: So beautiful question Chris, and thank you so much. I think that actually we are here by God's mission, discussed it because I do believe it's so important for churches and pastors to play the really major role and they can do and I'm sure they are Doing like.
Exactly. You have already brilliantly mentioned that people with neurodivergence already feel like, you know, that we have to hide. We have shame and guilty, we have anxiety, we over hide, we over mask or perform or please all the time. Right. And we kind of already bury this label different. And since ages, decades different has been connected with something like, you know, scary, not, not positive. Right, right. So I think the most important what every church can do and that it is leading with compassion before judgment. Because we already know we experience judgment all over the place. Right. Like if you believe, okay, I go to my boss, I will get this one. If I go to the, I don't know, meeting at the high school for my children, I already feel less because I have anxiety or something. Right. And you believe that actually other people also can see it, though they don't probably. But I think many people when they work into churches, like you have already said, they carry especially neurodivergent. They're carrying so much already, like put in layers, like you know, of experience invisible pain, anxiety, trauma, shame of feeling different.
So I think churches what they can do and I'm sure they're doing and I'm sure you also do that they can become really healing places that people can feel emotionally safe, seen, loved and welcomed. You know why? Because exactly for actually who they are, they don't need to again to be changed to, to hide, to perform or even perform to mask. Because I've been, I know, like Jesus led with compassion, connection, dignity. Right. So I mean like as long church really lead with compassion and no judgment. It can be really for me it has been always like something safe place. What is the point that you know, I can over perform for the people, but God already knows and can listen every single of thoughts how I can play or, or do something like, you know, to play for him or for Jesus. How. Because he already always knows what I'm thinking, what is my intention, what my feelings, what is the point. I cannot hide from, from and I don't want to. So that's why it's the best like authentic real connection that I'm talking to him. And sometimes, okay, I can be, you know, when I experience a lot of adversity sometimes and this is like God, you know what? Now it's not. I have to talk to your boss like you know, now enough. It's enough. I have to sit there.
[00:36:48] Speaker B: Manager.
[00:36:50] Speaker A: Yes, but I mean the most important like equality and empathy and no judgmental approach. Like again, you know, even in mindfulness, one of the Postulate as well, or I think in many different religion that you can come with your whole heartedness, who you are and even. Yes, I have ocd, yes, you know what I have. But God, please don't judge me because it's not my fault. It's not. Do you want, do you really? I want to have intrusive thoughts. No, but what can I do, right? I can do my best managing them. So churches, it's healing places. I think for me it has always been healing place. Like, okay, I can put my shoulders. I don't need to hide. I can be as I am. Like, you know, please God, take me as I'm, you know, me, you know, inside what's happening.
[00:37:38] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I think I'm hearing you say, Valeria. People just, we need to extend grace to others and not just in the church. I mean it should definitely happen in the church first.
You know, we should, we should be different than the rest of the world. But I know at least over here in the States there's a lot of talk of invisible disabilities. And so I think that's something too that I just want people to understand is just because you can't see somebody's neurodivergence or just because, you know, you might not be aware of it. But if we are all just ready to extend grace to anyone who is different than us. You know, you talked a lot about diversity. Like then I think we're gonna just be more open, more compassionate in general.
And so then we will be more inclusive to people that maybe feel like they don't fit in other places. But we have to create that environment.
[00:38:29] Speaker A: Yes. Kristen, thank you so much. It's so beautiful how you put it, really. It's this invisible disability. It's huge.
You know, maybe you have seen also this information, listen recently that now mental health, like pandemic, really it's even more rates over cancer or before it was diabetes, cancer, heart disease. But now it's mental challenges. It's 1.2 billion people are suffering in the world. But can you imagine it's just people who has access to be identified? Can you imagine how many people in other countries they have nowhere everywhere possible possibility to some of them even to visit the doctor, pay attention to or to pay visit to or even to disclose because of their beliefs, traditions, cultures or even simply they have no access to the medical institution. Also 1.2 just in these, let's say western countries that you can actually get help or diagnosis or service support. But then for me it's just caring numbers how many actually people really are suffering? And the trend still that we are suffering silently and we are so afraid to express it externally. And I think church really can be arena and place. Where can people come? And also like, you know, they can be enveloped by care and compassion and grace for who they are and then they can be more open to share it. And then other people can hold hope and understand and feel belonging. Oh, this is my community. I can be myself here. I don't need to over hide. I don't need to feel constantly like shame or guilt or over perform, which was in my case in the beginning, I was so concerned, like, you know, oh, what they are thinking about me, I'm getting crazy and that and that. So. But church, yes, it's really the place. I think that it can change a lot, a lot. All over the world, really.
[00:40:37] Speaker B: Well, it's so interesting to me. I saw, you know, somebody on social media that was like, oh, well, all of a sudden it's like trendy, you know, to be neurodivergent. And all of a sudden it's trendy that now everybody has, you know, all of a sudden like, this didn't used to be this way. And I saw, I think her name is Dr. Jen. I should have to look it up. Basically her response was that it's not that all of a sudden more people. To your point, it's not that all of a sudden more people have neurodivergence. It's that now we have the tools available to recognize and to name it. And so people have been carrying these things for decades not knowing what it was. And it's like now that we've got more resources and tools and specialists and experts, now we can help more people identify. You know, like when you were in Ukraine and they didn't know how to help you. No, this is actually a good thing. It's not because all of a sudden we're growing. And you know, neurodivergence is that we're able to help more people identify what has already been going on.
Very different.
[00:41:43] Speaker A: Thank you so much for your beautiful feedback, Christian. You know, I have reflected a lot about this because it's part of my podcast every single show, right? Which is diversity is the game changer, which I ironically or funny enough called like pish cast because I started actually being in mental institution because I was two years ago, just short period because it was the war. My parents were refugees. They came my kids, they got like panic attacks constantly and depression because of the war. My husband got sick with Heart disease. And I put mask on all these people. Like in the play. You know, you should put your mask and then. But of course. Do we do that? No.
I have been serving constantly all the people around me. Right. I put like mask on them and then I didn't mention it actually. I. I was running out of like oxygen myself. And OCD is coming and hitting soul like you know. Also they never asked like, you know, war, not war doesn't care if you are your cognitive overload at this level. That's it. And one day I woke up and again I I. But I I already know that. Thanks God I'm in Norway.
And actually they of tools now really a lot of different new approaches as well. I was even the part of new program. Like I was like you know, guinea pig or canine. They. They tried on me.
Yes, it's. It's very very. Oh, it's exposing therapy very like intense four days and four nights. And it's the most scary thing I have been through. But I said yes that they could test me my brain. Because I wanted to help other people. It's actually you have really expose yourself to the edge.
Not like ape. You fear like, you know, if you're afraid of flying, you have start flying. If you're afraid to take the elevator, you. You have to you. Because if you escape this. So the fear is taking overtake all your. It's like if you just grows. Yes, it grows because if you try to put all your attention and efforts not to think about something like don't think about pink elephant. Oh, try one minute. You would never ever succeed. It's the same as enthusiast. If you put your energy to actually like, you know, push them away. Try to do it. Never ever succeed. It's not possible. So you have actually to really expose yourself to the edge so much that what you are actually seeing you almost have to do it. And then your brain actually understand. Wow. It's intrusive thought. That's why they call intrusive because they are not logical that you actually what you see, it's not you. It's not your identity. You don't want to do it. You would never actually be doing this because you are so afraid to do it. Because your identity and personality is totally opposite. That's why it's like disannounced like, you know, but it was so scary.
But again to the beautiful point. You have already mentioned that first of all we have more tools. Exactly. Now more systems.
And even like with autism. Because the whole neurodiversity Umbrella started with autism, right? It was Judy Singer, the Australian sociologist in 1986. She coined this term neurodiversity. Okay. And she approached that we have basically that neurodiversity. It's beautiful and powerful biodiversity of our brains. Just our brains are wired differently. But it's not from pathological patterns that we are disabled, disordered. But she wanted to change this medical very painful language to affirmative language and said that no look at biodiversity. We are thriving and surviving because we are different. And actually neurodiversity, it's a beautiful rainbow, I call it. Or like it's mental uniqueness. It's not weakness, it's mental uniqueness, right? It's not disorder, but it's disorder. It's different order or it's not disability, but it's possibility or even plausibility if you know how to do it with this engine.
It was her many actually years ago, right?
But then again, what even we have this TED talk of Elizabeth Wicklander I love. She came first and spoke about her autism and she said we have the
[00:46:14] Speaker B: whole,
[00:46:17] Speaker A: the whole generation of missed autism. Why? Because autism traits at females represents totally different from males. And we believe like it's just one like okay, this male who. Who doesn't speak, who like very introvert, like special traits. But actually autism, which female.
It's totally different traits. We didn't know that. And she had it. And that's why she didn't understand why she could not fit into the society and community while she was growing up. But now we have more tools, like you said, now we have more focus.
It's true from one place it's positive thing a little bit. A little bit, okay. But negative things is that as long as we evolve now, it's ironically enough that people with neurodivergence like you know, Einstein, like Nikola Tesla, you know now Elon Musk, Bill Gates, everybody, we propel the society. It's actually what we are inventing a lot. We are creating usually behind the major actually inventions. It's people with neurodivergence. But ironically enough, we don't fit in this neurotypical society still. Right? And we kind of propel this technical revolution. We are creating eis, all these apps and tools which from one place, very nice. We can make a lot of medical now research and help brains. But from another one, we also put so much pressure on our nervous system and our brains because of social media, because of everything in is so now concentrated on speed of execution, right?
We we cannot like manage anymore where to Stop how? And that's why now in millennials, every seventh person is neurodivergent. But Generation Z already it's every fifth teenager has neurodivergence.
And we have to know and we, we should be aware about this and we have to start manage it and help especially teenagers, you know, how they, they should detach from so much like you know, desktop and screens and social media. Because everything that it, it's not teaching our brain to focus on something, it's actually basically teaching our brains unfocus. That's an. Unfocus is the first trait to be unregulated a lot of cortisol and you know, neuroscience shows how actually it damaging can be.
So we have like this both like, you know, we have more information. It's nice, but we have more information. It's not nice.
[00:48:52] Speaker B: You're right.
Well, I was going to ask you too because you know, there as a society, as in whole, I think there is more advocacy, there's more tools, there's more research.
Is there something that you're seeing a pattern where maybe we're still avoiding or we're missing something when it comes to neurodivergence?
[00:49:16] Speaker A: Yes, a lot. I think that you're so right that we, we are experiencing now, especially after social media, that all the time we have all these new trends, like. And then all of a sudden it's overkill. One day we speak about sustainability, then all of a sudden, especially in Europe, everything is sustainable. Oh my God, even like toilet paper sustainable. What do you mean you should use it second time or. What do you mean sustainable? Like, you know, like that you can reuse like everything about sustainability then one period everything can be worse about, I don't know, like diversity now it's not allowed about everything now everything like you said, all of a sudden everybody has like ADHD or trauma, like OCD and, and algorithms they are picking up. It's so quickly, right? If you just press one time on this one word all, all your Instagram will be trauma, trauma, trauma. And I said I don't want it anymore. I don't want even to show to open. And my, my even OCD brain like, you know, it thinks in pictures. And then all of a sudden like if, like, you know, we have from 60,000 until 80,000 thoughts per day and we think the images in, in pictures and 95% of them, they're repetitive every single day. If you don't add new stuff in your brain, but you should be radically selective what you put here. But if you Open. Open what all greens like feed you all the time. And your brain can you imagine like 60,000 but 50,000 you it. It pictures like trauma, trauma, OCD, ADHD. Your brain sound like immediately there is no, there is no way you have to stop it really. You have to go to nature and actually feed specially manually your brain with other impulses. So it's very, very important to understand. That's why actual grid works, right? And they know it AI.
So we have be so, so careful what we not just put in our mouth. We care about our health, but what we put in and eat with our mental muscle, our mental brain. It's the same we have so even more selectively now what we put as like like you know, our cognitive food.
So I mean church is the best place for me and I really, really advise people to understand that as more as we can be present in this faith in anything what brings you new cognitive neuro like impulses like prayer, like talking to God, anything. What can be positively like you know, which can you. Which brings you positive impulses.
It's so important that tomorrow your brain will be repeated again. Faith that you are grateful that you. You find your mission, vision, God something but not all these patterns. And especially I think like you know your beautiful podcast called Becoming Church. And I was talking with my friends today that I was so honored and I was so blessed to be on your show and they do believe very special in God. And we actually now three where we are making special program because we believe we have been brought together because of mission. We are delivering through the God's words that we are kind of messengers because one of my co founder she's has ADHD and another guy, brilliantly guy one of those who actually was participating in making ChatGPT but he's very, very like in truth and God and everything. And we are on the mission how we can actually bring people a little bit together to do groundness to faith gratitude not just like EI and I was talking about you that I will be participating and they were very excited for that.
And we were talking also of course because many these neurodivergent traits they are connected with the same which is ptsd right Trauma and I'm Ukraine a lot of people they experience trauma now and it's wow. It's another subject. We could have been talking many hours but we try and also to help them actually to provide some course how they can try to regulate their system because it's a lot of like anxiety, depression, you know the same traits like Actually OCD and adhd, a lot of things. And I think one part also is becoming church and church that you can, what church is doing for me, like, you know, become. Because many people, they, they say, oh, we don't do that stuff, or we don't, don't go to the church. And I said, you know, you don't have to go to the church. You can become your own church yourself. You can bring and carry your church whenever you go, whenever you do. My mom, she told me since I was a kid, the most important, you should have God in your heart, in your thoughts, in your actions, even in tiny ones, because he always can't listen. He always watch what you're doing, with which intention this is to become a church. And I think the most important for even Ukrainians. Can you imagine how many people, because of the war, they basically cannot go to the church. Even my church I went to, we don't have it anymore.
But then it's so important, like to bring this church, to bring the mission of Jesus and Christ in your heart, right? And then you can inspire so many people by becoming your own church, because it's really even impossible for them to go to one place and be in church. But you can always have it and you can always go to your own church by caring, like, by caring so much, by having it really into your heart. And then.
Yeah, I think so.
[00:55:03] Speaker B: Well, that's. Listen, that was the last question I was going to ask you and you just answered it. So that's, that's perfect.
Thank you so much for, for being here and for sharing with us and. Yeah, just inspiring people to become the church, doing exactly what you just said.
We'll link up your podcast in the show notes and everything so that people can come and find you and follow you. And I'm just so grateful for your time and for you being here and sharing so, so vulnerably.
[00:55:32] Speaker A: Thank you so much. Again, like I said, I'm genuinely grateful for that and I feel what you are doing. It's amazing. I, I was enjoying your shows yesterday and please, of course, just continue it. So it's so important. So it's so important now, especially now in these challenging times and for your audience, if they, if it can help, especially for neurodivergent people like, you know, my mantra, my praying always, like, I, I really trust in the divine flow in, in what God really wants me to be and to do. And I was like, in the morning, God, you know what, if you give me something today, it's my blessing. If you actually take something from me, I'm grateful because you are protecting me from something. Or and the last one, if you say Valeria, you should wait. You are preparing me for something.
So I think if we can.
Of course it. It's muscle. It's also. I have. So I have manually especially my OCD to put it. But it helps me. It helps me a lot. So I think if people can resonate to that, maybe for somebody it will be the same words they actually want to hear today. Why not? Thank you so much for having me. It's a blessing
[00:56:51] Speaker B: for my international listeners. I am so, so honored that you are here. Please reach out to me on Instagram, hristenmothleryoung or ecomingchurch tv. I would love to know how I can serve you even better with upcoming guests. And for my American listeners, I hope this conversation was a reminder that the world and God's people extend far beyond the borders of our country. With just a little effort, we can bring compassion and humility and a willingness to learn from their lived experience experiences as well. Until next time, thanks so much for listening wherever you are and keep becoming the church, the people around you.
