Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: A book titled if God is Loved, Don't Be a jerk. Sounds funny until you realize just how many modern Christians actually need that reminder. I'm Kristen Mauchar Young and this is Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. Each week we explore the intersection of faith, culture and everyday life through the lens of Jesus. Today my guest is John Pavlovitz. He's here to share his children's book, Here and Now in Small and Close. But the conversation is really about the heart of what he's hoping to teach the next generation to understand their proximity to pain and their God given agency to help heal it. We're talking empathy, masculinity, fear and grief, with some laughs along the way. I'm so glad you're here to join us, John. Welcome to the Becoming Church podcast.
[00:01:00] Speaker B: Thank you so much. It is great to be with you, Kristen.
[00:01:03] Speaker A: So happy to have you. I was looking at your Instagram bio and it says that you're an author, a pastor, an activist, and a storyteller. So what does that actually look like? Like in the day to day?
[00:01:14] Speaker B: Wow.
It really depends. That's what I love about my life. There is an unpredictability to it. I get to just get up every day and say what's in front of me. What is giving me joy, joy or energy or what do I feel I need to respond to. And so that could be writing something, it could be putting together a video. It might be traveling in my local community. It might be answering messages from folks. And so I really just try to be a pastor with a much, much more unorthodox congregation, you know?
[00:01:44] Speaker A: Yeah, I get that. There's a lot of people that listen that call me their, like Instagram pastor.
[00:01:49] Speaker B: So yeah, sure.
[00:01:50] Speaker A: You're just pastoring the community, you know, I think it's great.
[00:01:54] Speaker B: Yeah, it's beautiful because there are no constraints on it, there are no expectations and there are no barriers perceived or real. People get to just receive the words or the videos and they can have a direct relationship with them and it's. It's fabulous. And I realized long ago that really good social media isn't about just disseminating content. It's really a relationship that you build with people. And that relationship is as meaningful as, as in person community is. It's just very different.
[00:02:24] Speaker A: Yeah. Are you finding that in a lot of your posts and things that you're able to like, build those connections and relationships?
[00:02:30] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, doing this as long as I have, I'm probably in year 12 of this sort of virtual congregation, and the relationships and friendships I've built with people. You know, a couple years ago, I went through a brain tumor surgery. And what I saw and experienced was this outpouring of hundreds of thousands of people. And I really began to see the fruit of a decade of just being with people, listening, showing up, and it. People carried me through that. And so I've never forgotten just how important that relationship is. I still feel like a pastor.
[00:03:04] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And I'm sure, you know, that's the blessing of being a pastor, is we pour out a lot. Right. We shepherd and we care a lot. But then those times, too, that we need it, it's God's like, okay, and now here's your reward. Not that we do it for that, but here's the reward of, like, all that love coming back to you.
[00:03:20] Speaker B: Yeah. It's a reminder. It's a reminder that this is not about theology or, in my case, politics. It's about human beings and getting to meet people in those small and close places. And I just. It's an honor to do the kind of work we do.
[00:03:36] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, you said small and close, so we're gonna. We're gonna take that transition there. You've written a lot of adult books, which, by the way, you have fantastic titles. I like.
[00:03:46] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:03:47] Speaker A: The creativity in your titles, which we will get to.
But you have written a children's book called Here Now, Small and Close.
Why was now the right time to write for kids?
[00:03:58] Speaker B: Well, I, you know, traveling as much as I do. Kristen. I've been giving a message to adults for a long time, and that message is that you always have two things at any time. Proximity to pain and agency to alleviate it. And the more I've seen the impact of our sort of circumstances on people emotionally, mentally, spiritually. I've been, you know, speaking that to adults, but wanted to say that, give that message to children. How could I, you know, take that, that challenge to remind them? And so it came with this statement of, I'm always someone. I'm always somewhere. I can always do something. And out of that, the idea of here and now and small and close was born.
[00:04:41] Speaker A: Yeah. Tell us a little more about the book. I've read through it. It's really adorable. Like, the illustrations are fantastic. I used to teach Kinderg garden, so I feel like I have an eye for, like, you know, the childish innocence. You really did a fantastic job.
[00:04:55] Speaker B: Oh, thank you. Well, it's really about just reminding young people that as frightening as the world can be, that there is always something you can do in the middle of it to make it less frightening. And I think that's true for, you know, all children. No matter how old we are, we always want to be reminded. And so I'm hopeful that this book will be something that is sort of an intergenerational conversation that people can have with those they love to keep reminding each other. Hey, there's a lot we don't know. There's a lot that feels out of our control, but there is a tremendous amount that we do have agency over, and let's lean into what we can do and what we do care about.
[00:05:35] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, I really love the four. You really. It's like. I mean, it flows like a story, but it really is broken into the four parts. And as a parent, I really appreciate that structure because I'm always for look. Looking for things that I can just, like, tuck into my pocket, you know, that my kids will remember. So this will be one of those things where I can go, like, okay, you know, let's. Let's look at where we're at now, and I'll be able to just hone in on that, which is a really great teaching tool.
[00:06:00] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, the hope is that there's an idea of paying attention that sort of runs through the book. And I think that's something as adults, you know, we can get so overwhelmed by the news cycle and social media that we don't. We aren't in the present place, and we aren't able to just simply look around and say, who. Who do I know who has need? Or where's the PA or where. What is my burden in a particular moment? And we always can find something that we can do to change the temperature of the place and time in which we find ourselves.
[00:06:31] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, you're so right that it's about. About noticing. And I feel like that's what adults are missing. Like, it's like kids can get lost in it. Right. And noticing and about wondering and just looking at all of the things of the world. And it seems like now adults are operating just in efficiency.
Right. Like, do you think there's this universal thing, John, that happens to us that causes us to shift from seeing what's right in front of us to, like, being so narrow focused on what we have to do?
[00:07:00] Speaker B: Yeah, I think there's. There's something to be said for the accumulated sorrows that we experience over time, and those can alter us you know, we have traumas and. And sad experiences, or we become aware of realities that we didn't know before, and that can often shift the way we see the world. It can sort of change the Len. And so what I love about children is they have this purity to the way they see the world and themselves, and there's a sense of optimism. I think there's a hopefulness in most children, and that's what we lose as adults. It's the. The feeling that there is still so much possible. We begin to. You know, if you go to a group of children and you walk in and you say, who here is an artist? Well, they all put up their hands, and if you do that with a group of adults, they're like, well, I used to draw, or I can't draw, and they begin making value judgments on themselves. And that's a. That's a tough.
[00:07:51] Speaker A: Yeah.
Value judgments.
Okay. I don't think I've ever considered that phrase before, but you're right. That's something that kids. I don't know, maybe that's something that kids understand, but then adults over complicate because, like, I would not call myself an artist if you asked me in a room.
[00:08:06] Speaker B: Exactly. But. But see, yeah, that's a. Right. It's the idea of I can embrace who I am without needing any caveats or conditions. And. And adults were always.
Kids never have imposter syndrome. They just believe in. And we always do as adults. We're always trying to talk our way out of why we're qualified or smart enough or, you know, all these things.
[00:08:30] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay. I didn't prep you for this, but as a parent, do you think there's something that we can do to help our kids, like, fight that imposter syndrome? I mean, I'm sure it will come, you know, life experiences, but, like, how do we help them a little bit longer?
[00:08:42] Speaker B: Yeah. I think with. With my kids, for example, I'm always trying to make sure they keep answering the question, but who are you? You know, who you are. It doesn't matter if people around you don't see or acknowledge that or the times they misunderstand you. If you can say, where is my heart? And. And who. Who am I trying to show up in this world as? That's the only thing we have control over. So I think it's taking away the. Not worrying about the audience or the reception, but what is my intent, which
[00:09:11] Speaker A: is so hard for adults. Right?
[00:09:13] Speaker B: Yeah. Isn't it, though? Yeah.
Yeah, I think. I think we're so Easily. You know, we begin to let the perception of people outweigh just the work that we do in saying, well, what kind of a person am I? I always say to people, who do you think you are? You know, there's a story in our heads about who we are, but then there's the reality of our choices and our outward lives. And I'm always asking adults if they have congruence, is the person you think you are the person you're showing up as? And that's a constant batt.
[00:09:47] Speaker A: And sometimes it takes honest answers from other people to even answer that question, because we can't. I don't think we can always answer that honestly for ourselves, even.
[00:09:56] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, I remember years and years ago, I was just in New York City for a visit, but I remember when I was growing up, their mayor was a man named Ed Koch. And he used to walk around when he'd see people and he'd go, how am I doing? And he would just let them tell him. And we rarely do that. You know, we rarely tell. Ask the people around us, our family members, friends, co workers, classmates. Hey, what are you experiencing from my life? Like what. How I was talking to my son recently and I said, tell me about how you see me as your dad. What do you think and feel? And those answers can be uncomfortable, but they're beautiful because they give us an informed perspective on which we can then move forward, Right?
[00:10:34] Speaker A: Yeah. If we can receive them, then we can actually use it in our transformation.
[00:10:38] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:10:40] Speaker A: Well, you also wrote a book that I'm going to buy solely on by its title to put here on my shelf, and it's called if God Is Love. Don't Be a Jerk.
[00:10:49] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, it's funny. I was talking to a friend, and he said, when that book first came out, and he said, why not just call it if God is Love, then love other people? And I said, well, maybe that's a product of me being affected by the world around me, and there's a little bit more abrasive or confrontational spirit rising up in me. But I also think there's a. There's a challenge in that title to say, what is. What is your faith tradition? What is the namesake of your faith? And who do you believe that to be?
And how does that show up in the life that you're living? And sometimes we just need to. I always say, sometimes we need a hug around the neck and sometimes we need a kick in the behind.
[00:11:30] Speaker A: Yeah, I have a little challenge in me, too, John. So I Appreciate. Yeah, I recognize it.
[00:11:37] Speaker B: Well, I mean, it's, and that's, that's a sacred thing. I mean, that's what the prophets have done and for thousands of years. And it's what Jesus was doing, which we can talk about later. You know, he, he was all as loving and compassionate as we believe he was, but he, he also, as he walked the planet, was not afraid to call out injustice. And so that's, it's part of it.
[00:12:01] Speaker A: Yeah, we're definitely going to get to Jesus, don't you worry.
But I do feel like that title, that Challenge, is really a great example of your work online in general. There's, you seem to have this underlying theme of asking Christians to consider how, you know, maybe their faith, their identity that started with Jesus has become disconnected from him.
[00:12:22] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I think, Kristen, there's a, there's a mission drift idea in business that there's this founding principle or this organization that begins and over time, the way it slowly shifts and it's imperceivable at the time. And it's only when looking back, you can say, well, this was who we were. This is what we were, what happened. And I think for Christianity, it's often important for us to look at, you know, how has living in this country affected us? How have the churches that we've been a part of that system, how has it altered even the way we think we're supposed to show up as followers of Jesus, and it's healthy and there's nothing, you know, there's nothing bad or wrong or threatening about that. We should receive those questions daily with joy because we want to know that we're reflecting who it is we follow.
[00:13:12] Speaker A: Right.
Although it does seem more and more that the people maybe who are straying, I'll say, away from, you know, the actual teachings of Jesus are not seeing it.
Do you think it's because we're just more divided and like more siloed? Or is it, I think, will it, like just a refusal to see it?
[00:13:32] Speaker B: Well, there's a couple of things. Yeah, there is this self preservation that's a part of that, you know, once we're a part of the system and our success in life or our opulence or our, you know, ease is built upon that system. We're very hesitant to disrupt that system in any way or to admit its flaws. But there's also simply, you know, I think people, many people have been raised for decades in a faith on which the, the engine is fear.
And so when you're constantly terrified of your neighbor and you're looking for adversaries and enemies and encroaching threats everywhere. It's hard to think clearly. And I think that that is part of this.
[00:14:12] Speaker A: Yeah. I was just recently with my oldest friend in the world. We met when we were six and I haven't seen him in over two decades. And we were hanging out and catching up and just talking about life. And it was so funny the number of times that fear came up. Just talking about who we are in the world now. And it's like, man, we both multiple times kept having this realization of, like, we were just raised in so much fear. Like, can you imagine how we would have viewed the world differently as kids versus the way we do now if we'd been handed a different perspective even in our faith, you know?
[00:14:45] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, I, when people, I travel and I talk to people and they kind of are asking me about their relational struggles and challenges with people around them. And I always ask them to look for the fears and the false stories to try to figure out what the other person is afraid of and how that fear may be misplaced and how we can give them a better story, you know, not so that they agree with us, but so that they're less fearful. Because I operate under this principle that no one is at their best when they're terrified.
And so if we can be in a place where we are, have this expansive understanding and we, we can rest, there's an exhale that comes when fear is gone and then, you know, possibilities are there.
[00:15:25] Speaker A: Yeah, well, you talked about, you know, you mentioned like Jesus being compassionate and empathetic and we're going to talk a lot about that today.
But one of the things that I think, you know, because I see compassion and fear, they can't go together. Right. Like, you can't really be compassionate towards someone that you are fearful of.
[00:15:43] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:43] Speaker A: But I do see that Jesus, like, challenged and he was very direct with systems. So it's almost like we've taken, you know, compassion towards people and I don't know, like the structure of systems and maybe confused the importance of the two of those.
[00:15:57] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And I've, I've always loved the image of Jesus as the good shepherd because I think it's all there because people would say, well, yes, he's the shepherd, he's kind, compassionate, personal caregiver to the individual, but not to those he saw as the wolves. To, you know, to them he was holy terror, he was system changer, he was status quo influencer. And so I think we can embody a fully formed Jesus by making sure that we have gentleness toward the individual, but then directness toward the systems that. That weigh upon them. I always love that Jesus is looking at the crowds and he has compassion on them because they were harassed and helpless like a sheep without a shepherd. Because it reminds me that Jesus is looking at what the world is doing to people, not just what. What they're doing in the world.
[00:16:47] Speaker A: Yeah. John, pastor us through this. Okay, so for the people that are like, well, how do I know? How do I know, like, who to be compassionate towards and who needs a little more, like, who are the wolves? How do we recognize them? Because, yeah, I think recognizing them and some of us are being, you know, misguided.
[00:17:05] Speaker B: Well, yeah, it's a huge challenge. I was talking to a friend this afternoon, and we were talking about how the political tribalism and the sort of theological confrontations we have with people that can rem. That can keep us in this sort of horizontal battle with one another, but that there's really these. The rich and powerful. So it's really like a vertical battle primarily that we're in, but we don't realize it. So for me, it's trying to look at the people around me and. And have compassion for them and understand, not dehumanize them.
Because most people are just waking up every day and the story in their heads is that they're a decent human being. No one wakes up thinking, I'm going to try to be harmful or very rarely. So I try to look at people, even if their political or theological ideology is different than mine, I try to understand the forces that are creating that within them. You know, how they got to where they are. And so I never want to caricatureize or stereotype people if I can help it.
[00:18:05] Speaker A: Yeah, so you really are going more compassion toward the individual and maybe a direct challenge toward the systems or.
[00:18:12] Speaker B: Yeah, but, you know, that doesn't mean, you know, I'm always asking Christians to connect the dots between their spiritual convictions and legislation that they might support or politicians they might align with, because if those things are wildly incongruent, then there's something that needs to be addressed there. We don't put our hope in politicians or leaders, but they can be an instrument of our belief systems.
I'm strongly for the separation of church and state, but we cannot separate our personal spirituality from the, you know, our political affiliations and the choices we make.
[00:18:52] Speaker A: Well, and right now, I mean, there's not a separation because politicians are using scripture to Support, you know, to back and support.
What do we do with that? Because I, I again, I think there are people that can easily see the harm maybe that's being done there, that there's some manipulation that's happening. But for the people, John, that are like, but, but it's scripture, it's the words of Jesus.
[00:19:18] Speaker B: Well, here's the thing. I think, you know, I talk about it a lot, that I think what happened is a group of politicians have created what is essentially a Jesus less Christianity. So they will talk about the idea of God in very vague terms because God is sort of this avatar that they can superimpose their beliefs or their prejudices onto. So they'll talk about God very generally, they'll talk about faith very generally, and they'll speak about the Bible. But it's usually in the context of the Bible as a symbol, not as something they actually engage in on a daily basis. So people are often Bible believing, but not Bible reading.
And above all, they'll never use the teachings of Jesus because they cannot manipulate the Sermon on the Mount to accomplish what they want to accomplish. They can say God, and that's what they do.
[00:20:08] Speaker A: Okay, that's good. That's a really good distinguishing point. And I, something that I hope listeners can hear is, yes, we have to ask, right? Like what, what is this actually saying? And if it's very general and very generic, then we can, and we can also, we have the agency like you talked about to take those scriptures that are being used, open up our Bibles.
[00:20:28] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:28] Speaker A: Read them and see what the context actually is and what they were intended for.
[00:20:33] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think that's the other thing. You know, most of us haven't had the luxury of going to seminary or, you know, diving into this really vast library of books that is the Bible. And so even when people misuse it, we often don't feel qualified, even people who've grown up in the church because they've had a very passive existence with the text. And so that's the other part. It's always good to have certain knowledge enough that you can say, okay, well, hold on a minute, let me help you reframe this or let me give you some context because that always destroys the myths.
[00:21:07] Speaker A: Yes, yes, yes. And it's good to have trusted pastors and leaders and people you can talk to. But also Google is a wonder. Like there's so many things that just every single person listening can find more context, study Bibles, footnotes, commentaries. It's right there.
[00:21:23] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's. And you know, I. I was joking with my friend today, and I said, you know, I don't argue with people. I show them the words of Jesus and say, you're gonna have to argue with that. If you and I both call ourselves Christians, if we're aspiring to the same faith tradition, then this is what you have to work with. It's not my opinion of you. It's not my, you know, thoughts about your politics or your theology.
[00:21:47] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:21:47] Speaker B: You just have these words, and they're going to mess with you.
[00:21:50] Speaker A: Yeah. John Fugle saying was on last year, and he basically said something similar. He was like, I don't need to argue with you. It's just, it's. Here's the words, here's the Bible right here. Here's Jesus.
[00:21:59] Speaker B: Yeah. And. And that's where the hostility actually comes when I'm trying to engage with people. You know, I've been doing for a little over a decade, and I've been invited to hundreds of progressive churches and synagogues and mosques and humanist conferences, but I've never been invited by a conservative Christian church to come and have any kinds of conversations. And I think that's because that sort of control and that fear that we talked about, that fear that is hesitant to have any differing opinion, any other perspective on the scriptures, and that's really sad.
[00:22:33] Speaker A: Well, sure. When they have a certainty about what those scriptures mean and then you come in and disrupt that, John, you're going to blow up their whole, like, faith foundation, which was not meant to be uncertainty to begin with. But that's the fear.
[00:22:46] Speaker B: That's right. You know, all the time I've. I write that, you know, certainty was sacred when I was a pastor, and I was. That's what. In the churches in which I was operating or living or even worshiping before that, it was, you know, questions and doubts are moral failings or character flaws. And the truth is, God is not intimidated. My. My questions or my doubts or my vacillation. And we should hope that those churches would welcome that dialogue because. But that exposes that this whole thing is a little shaky.
[00:23:16] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. How did you move, just real quickly, how did you move from your, you know, putting so much value in certainty and knowledge and having all the answers to being okay with the questions and the mystery?
[00:23:29] Speaker B: Well, I think it was looking at some events that were happening in the day, and for me, the Sandy Hook shooting was actually a really pivotal moment for me because I remember seeing religious and political leaders blaming this on the fact that we took God out of schools and it was sort of like a cold water on me. And I said, this cannot be what I'm aligned with. I cannot there. I've got to figure out how to differentiate myself from this thing. And so that was really, it was necessity and it was feeling the responsibility of, as a, as a pastor. The only thing I have is my authentic voice based on my spiritual journey. And if I compromise or soften that, or if I can't express that fully, there's a problem. And so I started inviting the questions into my preaching and my writing and found that people felt they had permission to ask questions and they really were grateful.
[00:24:20] Speaker A: Yeah. So you kind of had this eye opening moment and then you just slowly just kept taking steps, leaning in, I guess.
[00:24:29] Speaker B: Yeah, well, the more you feel like you can ask questions, you know, I remember years ago I was at a new church. I'd been preaching for a while and I always joke that I was nudging my congregation with these questions. And then I started at a new church and I say that, you know, five months in, I heard God calling me to leave that church. And it came in the form of my pastor's voice saying, you're fired.
And for me it was like the questions and the doubts, they were not welcome or the challenges to the status quo in the, in the context of that particular church. And it's just a really sad way to exist for me because God is so massive, God is not figureoutable.
And so we constantly have to be in a place of learning and wonder and incompleteness.
[00:25:16] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.
[00:25:18] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:25:19] Speaker A: I know another, another big topic right now, John, is, you know, kind of a toxic empathy or like empathy as a sin when it comes to Christianity.
And so there's two sides, right? So if you were maybe talking about empathetic faith and somebody were to say, well, I don't want my shape, my faith to be shaped by empathy. I want my faith to be shaped by truth.
What would your response be to that?
[00:25:46] Speaker B: I mean, as a Christian, a professed Christian, I would want my faith shaped by Jesus. And I always remind people that if, you know, the people who say that, the people who say, well, I don't want empathy to define it, I want truth. They're basically talking about the transaction to escape hell. They're talking about that very, you know, afterlife focused Christianity. And I think when I always say that if Jesus were only about that, the gospels would have been a lot shorter. There would have just been an altar call and that would have been it. But we see all these great stories of Jesus living alongside people and how he treats the poor and about the vulnerable and just how to engage with our world. And so that matters. And so I think as I do that, as I mentioned, you know, in Matthew 9, you know, Jesus, he is the engine is compassion for people. And if we don't have that, Jesus is absent from our faith. If we take out the empathy from Jesus, there's not a lot left that we have to work with from the Gospels.
[00:26:50] Speaker A: Yeah, well, how does that suspicion of empathy and affect or change how we follow Jesus?
[00:26:57] Speaker B: I think it, it should make us more concerned than ever to be clear about how much we value human beings. Because the idea of valuing humanity is often rejected by people who just want this afterlife focused. It's all about the soul. I, you know, I had a pastor of the church where I was fired.
I was new at the church and I was talking about our students in our ministry and they were going through so many things, you know, divorce in their family and drug issues and all these things. And I was trying to learn about all of their lives so that I could attend to them. And he wanted me to do more spontaneous baptism events. And I'm sitting there trying to like, help him understand what I'm trying to do. And he said, john, it's no exaggeration when I say that I have absolutely no interest in ministering to people.
And I was like, I had this poker face, but I realized, okay, this is the moment I can no longer work here.
But for him, it was about that transaction. He wanted people saved and it didn't matter what their condition was. And that to me is antithetical to what I see in the Jesus of the scriptures.
[00:28:06] Speaker A: That is baffling to me as a pastor. I'm like, I don't even understand.
Yeah, well, so just, it was just like, like data and just like, well,
[00:28:15] Speaker B: he, you know, he was a preacher. He saw his role as showing up, giving that altar call, getting people baptized. And that was really it. And so everything else was secondary. And so, and you see a lot of people, they're, they're wired, either earthly bound believers who want people to be cared for while they're here, or people who are trying to get us to the after party. And for me, it's like that prayer, you know, on earth as it is in heaven, I mean, that says everything. And so if we're not incarnating that kind of beautiful kingdom here, why are we even here to begin with?
[00:28:54] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that absolutely makes sense. And again, back to the following of Jesus of it all. Like, would he even have been necessary if the whole point was just to get to heaven? Like, maybe.
[00:29:06] Speaker B: Yeah, I guess.
[00:29:07] Speaker A: I guess this whole point of his life would just for us to be like, yes, we believe, let's go. And then sucked on up.
[00:29:13] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, it's stunning to me, Kristen, when I hear people arguing against empathy. I don't even, I don't understand how you do the theological gymnastics.
[00:29:21] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:29:22] Speaker B: Other than to view Jesus only as a ticket to heaven, but then disregard everything else about his presence and the way that he interacted with his disciples and with strangers and with the powerful. And so I don't know how people do it.
[00:29:38] Speaker A: Yeah. We could have ended on Christmas morning. Like, here he is, the Messiah.
[00:29:41] Speaker B: That's right. Yeah.
[00:29:43] Speaker A: That, that would have been all we needed if that was.
[00:29:45] Speaker B: Beat me up, Scotty.
[00:29:47] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly.
Well, John, do you think the pushback against empathy is really empathy or the discomfort kind of like we talked about, that it brings to people?
[00:29:58] Speaker B: Yeah, I think there's a, that fear based theology, what it does is it makes people easily contemptible. They have contempt for the people around them or they, they want to feel like they're, they're winning. And so what empathy does is it says, I'm you lack, so I'm going to help you in wherever you lack, whether it's food or health care or opportunity. And then so that fear based theology says, oh, someone's getting away with something and I don't want them to get away with something.
And so they, they move to pull that back, whatever they're receiving. But yet what Jesus was doing was saying, okay, this is not about fairness. And you know, Jesus feeds the multitudes. Like it's not about a spiritual gifts assessment test or a litmus test of their theology to figure out who was deserving to be fed. It was like his compassion and their hunger made them worthy.
[00:30:52] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:30:52] Speaker B: And a lot of people, our selfishness doesn't want that. We don't want people to get something we don't think they've earned.
[00:30:59] Speaker A: And it is, I think there's a jealousy element to it. Right. Like on one hand it's a scarcity mentality of if they have it, if they're special, then I'm not as special, or if they have it, then I won't have enough. But I do also think there's a jealousy of like, it's even generationally, maybe like the most. I'm going, well, we had to work really hard for this.
And so therefore you, even though there's now new inventions and new systems and things that did not exist then.
[00:31:26] Speaker B: Well, and it doesn't have to even be based in reality, because what I find is that, you know, white cisgender, heterosexual Christian men who've lived in America their entire lives have the greatest feeling of being oppressed when that is not the reality at all, but that's the story. And so once that story takes root, then evidence doesn't matter. And so that's the irony of all this, too. The people who are saying, I've worked for this really have, have. Have been born into entitlement. And they don't think about it at all.
[00:31:59] Speaker A: Yeah. Because they've never had to. They've never had to. There's never been a reason, a challenge, a situation for them to need to see it.
[00:32:06] Speaker B: Yeah. They've never had to argue their way or to demand their worth be recognized. And I think that's what's always staggering to me is a group of people who can. Who claim faith in Jesus so easily, wanting others not to have.
When the whole spirit of the Gospels is, let's make sure that early church was, we are interdependent community. Let's make sure that we all have what we need. And there's. There's no competition. It's collaboration.
[00:32:34] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, and that's why empathy really is of Jesus, because it's choosing to say, I have not needed to think outside of myself, but I'm going to choose to think outside of myself in order to love someone else, take care of someone else, even though I've never experienced that on my own.
[00:32:51] Speaker B: Yeah. You know the word compassion, I always, you know, remind people it was rooted in this word that was tied to the word bowels, this sort of guttural sort of unrest that I would be so internally disrupted by someone else's pain as being moved to sickness. And so there's this. There's this idea of I am twisted in my bowels over this. It's sort of this ancient idea in early Christianity. And so I always ask people, what twists you in your bowels? Like what gets you what. What, what. What alters you to the point of sickness? And that's the burden to push into. That's what your faith is calling you. So is there a group of people or a particular idea that you feel like that boils your blood, that keeps you up at night, that breaks your heart? Well, ask yourself why and then begin to do something toward that.
[00:33:40] Speaker A: That. Yeah. I call them holy burdens.
[00:33:43] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:33:44] Speaker A: My upcoming book, I have A whole chapter on it. And it is for me it's that like we were all singing Oceans by Hillsong like in the early 2000s. Right. God, break my heart for what breaks yours. We sang it and sang it and sang it and it's like, but if God answered and showed us something.
[00:33:58] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:33:58] Speaker A: Twisted our bowels, are we going to actually do something with that now?
[00:34:02] Speaker B: Yeah. And that's the. There's something that's a whole other topic. One day I was a worship leader too, and, and think about those songs. And if we actually took those songs and then wrote more verses to describe the response that we usually have, like break my heart for what breaks yours. But not that. And not that. And not that, you know?
[00:34:21] Speaker A: Right. Only the ones that I'm really comfortable with and are not going to be inconvenient for me, actually.
[00:34:26] Speaker B: Or just a vague incomplete idea that just says yes, that feels good. Don't ask me any more follow up questions.
[00:34:33] Speaker A: Don't make me explain it.
Okay. Whether you like John's imagery of what's twisting your bowels and physically making you feel for someone else, or you prefer to use my language of a holy burden that God has given you, I do believe the things that bother us are God's way of trying to tell us something. And so I've created a free quiz to help you figure that out. It's linked in the show notes or you can go to my website, KristenMochlerYoung.com to take the Holy Burdens quiz and discover what to do with those things that are breaking your heart.
Well, John, you mentioned, you know, men kind of as a group.
And I feel like there's a whole, I don't even know what the right word is. There's a whole like thing with masculinity and Christianity right now.
Yeah.
And it does feel also tied to the men that are trying to be compassionate, like Jesus, where all of a sudden it's associated with weakness. And so we're hitting like weakness and masculinity against each other.
Talk to us about what you're seeing there.
[00:35:43] Speaker B: Yeah, I think this misogyny has been baked in to conservative Christianity in America especially forever. I think what now it's had maybe a microphone and a microphone and platform that it hasn't had in a while. And so what you see people is seizing that as a brand, as opportunity to create wealth or popularity. And so those stereotypes get sort of nurtured and amplified. And so it's really about, you know, again, a manhood, an idea of manhood that takes away most of what we look to in, in the teachings of Jesus. The idea that to care for others, to, to weep for, for suffering.
And so it's good money, but it's, it's just so short sighted, it's so myopic and it's so damaging to the people who are, you know, this is not just about the powerful and the people with the big platforms and the big podcasts. This is about the people who listen to them and who raise children in that environment and because obviously what we know is that kind of misogyny. It's terrible for the way it affects women, but it's terrible for men too. It robs them of a sense of true identity and peace in their own skin.
[00:36:59] Speaker A: Yeah. What concerns you the most about this version of masculinity that's, that is being taught, you know, in churches and in Christian spaces.
[00:37:10] Speaker B: I, I think just how, how empty it is and it's such an easy sell to, to a young man. It's sort of like they can press those buttons of this is how you need to be. It's all about these outward appearance and it's about aggression and power.
And for me, I go back to, there's a, the teachings of Jesus are, there's a gentleness to those that is essential not for being a good man, but for being a good human who happens to be a man. You know, I think that's what we focus on, this idea of manhood. It's kind of ridiculous. It's really about how do you show up as the best human being that you can. And for me, that's got to be about how I treat the people around me.
And this Christian male movement is really just harmful to everyone.
[00:37:59] Speaker A: And so I guess maybe the people, I'm sure you, I'm sure you get them, the people that want to respond to that with like pulling out, you know, Old Testament scriptures and the quote unquote roles of like men and women.
Do you respond by just taking them back to Jesus?
[00:38:14] Speaker B: Well, and I also, you know, show them the early church and, and the way that, that women were respected and the way that they were. This organization, this early church thing was really just a movement of people who said we're going to make sure that everyone has what they need. But it was not a top down thing. You know, Christianity was a movement of, of, of relationship. It was never about authority and it was never about dominance. And even the, the Christian church early on, before it was sort of corrupted by government or commandeered. It was never about forcing will upon anyone. It was an invitation. And so all of those things. Yeah, we've got stuff in the Old Testament, but there's a reason we have a New Testament. And so you've got to just look at what was happening there and say, okay, tell me how you. You reckon with these things. Even with someone like Paul who was wrestling with so much of this, it was never about dominance. And that's just such a shallow version of manhood.
[00:39:12] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, even if you. We did a sermon series on acts for multiple weeks in the spring and early summer, and that was one of the things that I saw. I haven't sat down and read acts like that in a really long time. You know, studied all, like 28 chapters. Yeah, but that was one of the things that you saw in Paul was he was very strong in confidence, I would say, in identity and who he was.
But even when, you know, they were attacking him and, you know, bringing false narratives against him, he just was like, listen, look at my life. Yeah, this is what I've done. The things you're accusing me of are not true. He never, like, puffed all up and got aggressive and tried to fight. Like, he just didn't do that well.
[00:39:53] Speaker B: And. Yeah, and what we forget about Paul was that, you know, he admitted I was the persecutor of this movement. And so even just that expresses a humility that was able to say I was incorrect. And I think that's what you see in this kind of toxic masculine Christianity is this, I have the authority and I'm unwavering and I will not be moved. But actually, maturity comes when you can get new information and alter your perspective.
[00:40:22] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:40:23] Speaker B: On anything.
[00:40:24] Speaker A: Yeah.
That's the actual transformation that we're supposed to be experiencing. Right. Paul actually was that guy. And he's like, no, I moved away. Look at me and my humility and all of the things that I think are actually harder to do.
Again, it does seem like today's version of, you know, Christian masculinity is going, I hate to say backwards, but in this. If we're talking about Paul's story. Yes, backwards.
[00:40:49] Speaker B: Yeah.
There's so little self awareness or self examination in it. It's simply about saying, okay, here's what. Everything is wrong around us and here's how we're going to fix it. So there is that authoritarian kind of thread that runs through a lot of this, but it's really about, are you willing to be changed or to. To ask questions or to be challenged or to admit culpability. For something that's damaging. So there's a lot wrapped up in that.
[00:41:19] Speaker A: I'm glad you said that too. Admission of culpability. Because I think that's one of the things that not. It's not only fear, but there's some, there's some grief, I think, underlying all of this where. Oh yeah, people are afraid, you know, that they're going to lose their identity, their belonging, maybe even grief over like a previous version of their faith or their patriotism because it's all this becomes so entangled.
[00:41:42] Speaker B: Yeah, this is an identity story, as all things are. You know, we have this idea in our heads about who we are and who we, how we operate in the world. And when that's challenged, you know, we talk about deconstruction so much in the circles that we travel and it's sort of like I say, it's more like demolition. I mean, it's traumatic. And you know, I often say to people, you know, no one wants to take time to have an existential crisis, but sometimes you need to have one.
And so for, for someone to reckon with anything about their past or their belief system, there is a grieving that takes place and then there's the invitation to respond to that, what we find out. So most people don't want to do any of that work and that's why they avoid it.
[00:42:25] Speaker A: Yeah. And I feel like for most of the people that I've talked to who have had their, you know, demolition moment if. Because that is what it feels like at first.
I think for most of us too, it's not even something that we entered knowingly. We just found ourselves in it all of a sudden. Right. Like you said, you had your like eye opening moment and it's like all of a sudden you went, wait, everything fell down?
[00:42:45] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:42:46] Speaker A: I don't know how this happened.
[00:42:47] Speaker B: Well, and in my case, you know, some of that happened just looking at the, the clobber verses, you know, dealing with sexuality. And I remember as a pastor going, okay, I want to dig deep into these and I'm just going to some study. And I thought that's all I was doing. But then of course, once you get in there and you're saying, okay, now there's this line that I have learned wrong my whole life. But then there's the sentences before and after. Then there's the book that it's a part of and all of a sudden everything is sift. You're, you're sifting everything.
And that's a terrifying, you know, endeavor for sure.
[00:43:21] Speaker A: Yeah, it can be. And there is, like you said, that's. That's where the grief comes in. Because you start to realize the people that maybe you put so much trust and respect into, not that you can't still respect them, but you're like, oh, wait a minute. Maybe you don't know everything the way that I thought you did, or maybe there's more to this. And that is very hard to let go of sometimes. It's hard to shift those relationships.
[00:43:43] Speaker B: Yes. In some ways, it's like when you get a little older and you realize that your parents had no idea what they were doing. Like, you know, you look back and you're like, oh, my gosh. They were just trying to figure it out.
[00:43:52] Speaker A: And.
[00:43:53] Speaker B: And so. But there's like a. That's. That's a different kind of scales falling from the ey. And I think when it comes to our leaders in the church, we often have to do that and say, okay, these are flawed and failing human beings who are doing their best, but who are not any more capable than I am. You know, I can't. I became a pastor sort of by accident. It was not. I did not aspire to it, and I was volunteering for a church, and slowly. And I think that made me enter ministry with a different lens and different questions, and I was not sort of beholden to what I was supposed to be.
[00:44:24] Speaker A: Yeah, that's good. I think we didn't bring with us maybe the same expectations or duties that we thought we were supposed to fit into. Maybe. I don't know.
[00:44:32] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, they. They. I. I certainly, in my case, acquired them over time and began to.
[00:44:37] Speaker A: I'm sure. Yeah.
[00:44:38] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, I didn't know I was supposed to worry about this. And then. So. But then that was part of the push and pull. And I think for. For myself, and I'm sure for you, that's what gave me different questions or. Or allowed me to press into places other people might avoid.
[00:44:53] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, John, there are, you know, when. When we lose a person, often there's like a funeral. There's an end moment. We know what to do. We know how to process. But a lot of these grievances. Grievances don't have an end date. So how do we process the grief that continues to pop up over and over again?
[00:45:11] Speaker B: Yeah. For me, Kristen, I think the secret is making sure that we're in community with people who can carry us, because these are. These are accumulated sorrows. And they also. We never get to sort of sit with one thing for very long. There's no closure. And especially, you know, with a physical death, there is this understanding that that person. I'm no longer going to have interaction. But we're grieving over people who are still here. We may be estranged from them, or they may be still inflicting injury on us. And I think all we can do is hold the pain that we have in that day and say, I've got to be honest about this, and letting those things hit us. I think I've done a lot of work. Most of us have, pushing aside grief, and there's no way that you're going to make it. It's about acknowledging the sadness and saying, I'm going to keep moving, but this has altered me.
[00:46:05] Speaker A: I think sometimes, too, we push away grief just by naming it something else, Right?
[00:46:10] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:46:11] Speaker A: And so we're like, okay, this is some. This is actually, I'm not sad. It's. I'm angry or I'm whatever. And so it's easy to just kind of transfer those feelings to something that maybe we think is easier to manage.
[00:46:22] Speaker B: Well, even without knowing that we're doing that. You know, I remember one woman came to me, and I think I wrote about it, and if God is love, she came up to me after a talk and she said, I'm just. I'm upset at myself. I'm angry all the time. I don't recognize who I am. I hate how angry I am. And I said, well, you're angry, but you may be something else. You may be grieving.
And then she said, that's it. I didn't realize that I can now name all of the losses and the way that that's affected me. And so, yeah, we do it without even knowing that we're doing it.
[00:46:53] Speaker A: Yeah. And that's. It's healing when it. When it happens. Right. When you can name it. There's a. A bit of a healing there. But I also want to be clear, it doesn't make it go away. Especially like you said, when there's grief that continues to confront us right in our. In our face.
[00:47:08] Speaker B: Yeah. And we're never going to be freed from those losses. I mean, they're never going to be fully restored, no matter what it is. And so we just have to live with this sort of altered version of who we are in our reality going forward and to some degree, be okay with that.
[00:47:22] Speaker A: How. How do we do that, John?
[00:47:24] Speaker B: Well, we get up and say, I only have this day in front of me. You know, that that stuff is gone. It's just part of my history. Now there is the, the, the, the windshield. It's not about the rearview mirror right now. I've just got to say, what can I do with the day before me? And respond as faithfully as I can.
[00:47:44] Speaker A: Yeah, well, and even back to your kids book here and now in small and close. I think something that we can do with our grief is, is advocacy. Right. We can recognize maybe the pain that was inflicted upon us, maybe that we accidentally inflicted upon others. And even if we can't change the past, I think that we can actually use our grief and our righteous anger and all the things to make a difference for the future and for other people.
[00:48:10] Speaker B: Yeah. When it comes to the losses that we grieve, that we know that we had a hand in, that's certainly what we do. You know, I think, you know, privilege for me is a currency, you know, the acknowledgment of what I have benefited from. The, the answer is not guilt. That's, that's narcissism, inverted narcissism. The answer is what am I going to do with that information and with the privilege that I do have? And so it's not, it's not simply repentance, but it's, it's repentance embodied in something that is life affirming and redemptive.
[00:48:44] Speaker A: Yeah. And again, back to the life of Jesus. If we need to figure out where to put our time and our energy and all of those things.
[00:48:52] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And, and to just to realize that we only have the person we choose to show up as in the world and all the theology and all the, you know, the virtue signaling that will offer is meaningless. It's about what are people experiencing from my life, whether individually or in my collectives. And I have to live, you know, live with that.
[00:49:16] Speaker A: Yeah.
John. And despite all the, all the hard maybe things that we've talked about, you know, the different movements of Christianity, what gives you hope about the future of the big C church?
[00:49:28] Speaker B: I, I think what the, what the last, you know, 12 or so years for me is taught in this very virtual space is that there are people who are spiritually alive who are not counted in the roles. They're not in a pew pad. They're, you know, and so that, that's actually happening. So you can look at, at decreasing numbers in a building that only tells part of a story. But the, the bigger story is that spirituality is much bigger than these buildings. And so what I love about it is like the church is being the church right now. It Just might not show up in the way that we think or we used to see. And it might not get the credit for it, but faithful people are still going out in the world and altering the planet, which is always what the plan was.
[00:50:12] Speaker A: Yes, yes. That's my hope, too. That's kind of the hope in the heart of this show even, is that I want to encourage people to, like, do that and have your eyes open to see it is actually happening. Because it.
[00:50:23] Speaker B: Right.
[00:50:24] Speaker A: As a, even as a pastor, I want to be like, yes, and get your butt in here. Like be in the building on Sunday mornings, you know, but we have that tension of wanting people here while also understanding why, like you said, I think you said spiritually alive people. Why they're not right now.
[00:50:41] Speaker B: Yeah. Why they're not. And also, you know, I did some consulting for a church for a year in Minnesota, and the first. One of the first things I said was you have three campuses. You have this building and then you have the community around this building that we have access to, and then there's this virtual space that is another campus. So how can you count who is part of your church, who is in community with you beyond that? And so there are so many ways that we can be the church without needing it to be that. But old habits die hard, and that's just, you know, where we came from.
[00:51:16] Speaker A: Yes, of course. Well, and that is my last question for you, John, because the podcast is called Becoming Church. How can the people listening become the church to people who maybe don't need our answers as much as they need our attention?
[00:51:29] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, for me, Kristen, I think it's about saying, do are my beliefs embodied in my daily life, as much as I'm aware of that. But then the collectives that I'm a part of, the groups of people that I interact with, can I be a part of something that is creating something redemptive and life affirming and beautiful? And even if it doesn't get, you know, Jesus doesn't get the credit, even if it's not just a church thing, I can know what fueled me and what fuels me in these days. And so I think it's about what is the source, what is the thing that drives me.
And all I can do is be faithful to that and I don't have to worry about the rest. I really just have to do that as faithfully as I can.
[00:52:14] Speaker A: Yeah, that was a big turning point moment for me when I realized that I could do good in the world because of my faith, because I Believe Jesus, you know, modeled for us to do so without having to always attach his name. Like, I don't need to, you know, the unhoused person that's outside of my coffee shop. I don't have to make sure that. That we pray the sinner's prayer and he comes to salvation before I give him a gift card so he can go in and order breakfast and use the bathroom and, like, sit inside for a few minutes. You know, we can do the good things without always having to say, like. And it's because of Jesus.
[00:52:49] Speaker B: Not only that conversation.
Well, yeah, not only that, but. So we also don't need to take credit for it. As a Christian, you know, like, I remember that was a seductive thing about ministry and youth ministry. It's like, let's go out and do these great things, but let's remind people that we are the ones doing these great things.
And that's, you know, we should be more silent about our. Our whys and just let them speak for themselves. Let the results do what they're going to do without needing to. To get credit.
[00:53:17] Speaker A: Yeah. Sometimes it's between us and God and God knows, and he's proud of us and we can be proud of ourselves for doing what we're supposed to do, and that's enough.
[00:53:24] Speaker B: Yeah. And the human beings that you're impacting, they know, and that's all that matters.
[00:53:30] Speaker A: Yeah. They're feeling the love of Jesus whether we tell him, tell them directly that it's from him or not.
[00:53:34] Speaker B: That's right. Yeah. We. We can trust that God can get the message through without us to speak it.
[00:53:41] Speaker A: Yes. John, thank you so much for being here. I'm going to link up your kids books, your adult books also. Adult books. Books for adults.
Yeah.
[00:53:51] Speaker B: I don't know. You get in trouble there.
[00:53:52] Speaker A: Yeah.
Yeah. Your substack, everything else. So people can thank you along with you. Yes.
[00:53:58] Speaker B: Oh, it's been a joy. Kristen, thanks so much.
[00:54:02] Speaker A: Okay. Is it just me, or are y' all seeing this reoccurring theme of certainty pop up over and over again in these conversations? It's almost like this is some major concept that God wants us talking about. Either that or, I don't know, maybe it's a sign that you're meant to purchase my first upcoming book, the Other side of Certainty, if your deconstruction felt like demolition, like John explained, the Other side of Certainty is my offering to you, to pastor and walk you through it as a friend who has some experience, some understanding of Jesus. And all the time in the world to help you rebuild. I would love for you to pre order a copy. You can find it at the link in the show notes where you can also find John's books and substack and social media links. Until next time, thanks so much for listening and keep becoming the church to the people around to.
