Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: There's a lot of talk about justice and activism, but especially as Christians, should it be about more than just proclaiming our truth? I'm Kristen Mockler Young, and this is Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. Each week, we explore the intersection of faith, culture, and everyday life through the lens of Jesus.
My guest today is Jonathan Tremaine Thomas, who wants us to understand the connection between civil rights and civil righteousness. This episode will help you move empowered by the spirit when everything around you is trying to move you by rage and reactivity.
Jonathan Tremaine Thomas, welcome to the Becoming Church podcast.
[00:00:53] Speaker B: Thank you so much for having me.
[00:00:55] Speaker A: So happy to have you here. Now, listen, we were just chatting and I said, what do you like to go by? You said, I can call you jt.
That's what your friends call you, right?
[00:01:02] Speaker B: That's what my friends call me.
[00:01:03] Speaker A: Okay, well, I have to tell you because I am an elder millennial. As I was prepping for this interview, I kept calling you JTT in my mind, like Jonathan Taylor Thomas.
[00:01:14] Speaker B: You know, then you're actually in the flow. You're a total millennial. Because in high. Just last night, I was telling my daughter that in high school, all of my friends called me JTT and I was explaining to her, she's 15. I was explaining that there's Jonathan Taylor Thomas and I hated my middle name. And so I lied and said that my middle name was Jonathan Tyler Thomas.
[00:01:39] Speaker A: Okay, you kept with jtt. You just wanted a different middle, Right?
[00:01:43] Speaker B: Right, I did. I didn't like Tremaine. And it's so funny because when I started dating my wife, we were in a long distance relationship. I was in.
I was in graduate school for ministry. And she says, I was praying for you. And, you know, I just felt like your middle. I felt like doing a study on your middle name. And it means house of stone. And I connected it to Nehemiah. And I feel like God's named you Jonathan Tremaine because you're going to be a rebuilder of the wall. And what was interesting was everybody was asking me my middle name in grad school, in ministry school, they would just say, so what's your middle name? And I'm like, why do you care?
[00:02:24] Speaker A: You know, why are people asking me that?
[00:02:25] Speaker B: Exactly. And so after that, I just. It was like God did something deep in my heart and said, okay, I'm dealing with that self hatred that you have connected to your name. And from now on, I want you to introduce yourself as Jonathan Tremaine. So.
[00:02:40] Speaker A: Okay.
Well, I love it. Jonathan Jermaine. See, now I want to like, first middle name you the whole time. I just might.
[00:02:46] Speaker B: I don't know.
[00:02:47] Speaker A: We'll see what comes out, right? We'll see what comes out. Listen, my husband and I also did a long distance dating relationship, but he was in Copenhagen and I was in the States.
[00:02:56] Speaker B: Oh, wow.
[00:02:57] Speaker A: We were probably a little bit farther apart.
[00:02:59] Speaker B: Super long distance. That's. That's the real test, huh?
[00:03:01] Speaker A: Only God. I'm gonna tell you that right now.
Well, listen, you are a fifth generation pk, and so I have a very unique question for you.
[00:03:11] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:03:11] Speaker A: Because I want to know what is something that I should make sure I do or not do to like, not mess up my own daughters who are also PKs.
[00:03:19] Speaker B: Oh, wow. Yeah, that's a great question.
You know, I would say first of all, live as authentically, live your faith as authentically at home as you do in public.
I think when, when a preacher's kid sees that what you are preaching is more real and more of a reality at home, like they don't have a public faith and then a private faith. Yeah, I think that really makes a massive difference. And then the other thing I would say is vulnerability.
I think Gen Z and Gen Alpha are rejecting this, you know, public person of faith Persona that has no problems. And I think when your kids, they live in that house with you, so they know your character flaws, they know your weaknesses, and then they, we know you have problems. And then they see that, like in public everybody thinks you're the greatest thing since Moses, you know, and they're just like, last night you were cussing, you know, and so I think when they see you publicly embrace, like live in vulnerability, that's another thing that just goes, oh, okay, this is not, this is not hypocritical. I don't have to reject this. I can be broken and I can be weak and I can love Jesus. And you know, and I think some of the PK rebellion tendencies go away when there's been that type of authenticity.
[00:04:56] Speaker A: That's really good because even when I think back too to like other, you know, pastors friends, it does seem to be the hypocrisy. That is what like kind of wants to them away from the faith sometimes. So yeah, if we can just let them know, like, you know, your mom's a real person. This is all real stuff. It's not all like perfect and happy clappy all the time, then Right. Well, so far I'm on a good track then. That's good.
[00:05:19] Speaker B: You passed litmus test so far.
[00:05:22] Speaker A: We'll follow up. Jonathan, come back with me every couple of years and we'll see how I'm doing.
Well, I want to. I know at the time of recording, Gloria Steinem just passed. And so I'm already. I'm thinking, like, activism and all the things.
And Nina Simone was your great aunt who was also, again, talk about, like, activism and just setting a path for the future and future generations. When did you realize she was actually a big deal and not just like another person in your family?
[00:05:49] Speaker B: You know, it's funny because she. If you know any of her story, you know that she was so embittered by the cultural climate in America.
She. She started getting famous, and particularly the civil rights movement carried her. She goes, you know what? I'll leave America. I don't need this nation. You know? So she. She left and became a global household name, even more than in America. So.
And there was this sense of kind of our family, obviously, being a ministry family. There was no theology in our family that you could be called as really, as like, a prophet to the nations through music, you know, in the culture and. And serve God. And so for her, she's going, well, I guess I have to choose between my family or my career.
[00:06:42] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:06:43] Speaker B: And so my mother was the one that she kept in touch with the most. So she would come. Growing up, we spent Christmases. Not every Christmas, but, you know, probably every three, four or five years, she would come and stay in our home for Christmas. And I was just a little kid, you know, all I knew was, she's important and she's. She's temperamental. So don't talk to her unless she talks to you. Like, if Aunt Nina doesn't want you around, you ain't gonna be around, you know? And so it wasn't until I actually.
When I was older, when I was in high school, you know, I would get these reactions from people.
I didn't walk around and say, hey, I'm Nina Simone's nephew, you know? But what I found is when people would find out there was two reactions. It was either like, who's that? Or, oh, my goodness, you know, people would kind of freak out. And it was later, honestly, in college, when I'm taking, like, an African American history course, and they roll out all of this stuff about the influence, the impact of Nina Simone. And then it started hitting me. I'm like, wow, okay. Because we were kind of shielded from her and even her music, we didn't really listen to it growing up being again a religious family.
And so over the years, just the, the impact of her legacy in her work beyond just being Aunt Nina who stays in the room that you can't walk in while she's here.
[00:08:15] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:08:16] Speaker B: Really started hitting me.
[00:08:17] Speaker A: Oh, that's neat. So you really learned more about her life afterwards then?
[00:08:22] Speaker B: Yeah, but she did. She. She bought me my first drum. I'm a drummer. She bought me my first.
She brought me a steel drum from Antigua. She also purchased my first electric guitar. So yeah, I had a relationship with her as just Aunt Nina who travels the world and does cool things. But we don't really know what.
[00:08:42] Speaker A: Yeah, well, we're not going to tell you what actually, because we want to make sure we shield you from this a little.
[00:08:48] Speaker B: Right? Exactly.
Yeah.
[00:08:50] Speaker A: All right, well, before jtt, before we get to your book, make straight the path which I do want to talk about.
Sir, you are about to go on a 3,300mile bike ride through 11 historic underground railroad railroad routes. How have you been training and preparing for this?
[00:09:09] Speaker B: Well, you know, it started so backing way up. I used to run track and run cross country, but running just for those who don't know is high impact on your knees. So.
[00:09:20] Speaker A: Hello.
[00:09:20] Speaker B: Yep, I feel super young until I go in a long run and it's like, oh, okay, something happened at 40, things just kind of, you know, so my doctors were like, look, you got to switch it up. You got to do something low impact like cycling. So about three years ago I started cycling and I was watching these YouTube videos of like 70 something year old geriatrics doing 200 push ups a day and living in blue zones, living these amazing lives. And I was like, okay, I shouldn't be feeling like this at this age. I gotta get myself together. So I started cycling and in prep, it was really that two years ago I, I had a heart attack.
I had a small, small heart attack, but it was, it was called Takats Toxudo Cardio Myopathy and it's stress induced weakening of the heart.
And I had already, I was a year into cycling at that point, but I found that cycling was reducing my stress and it almost turned into like a spiritual practice. While I would be out there, I'd just start to feel what I remember feeling years ago when I would run long distance. You know when your body feels like it's going to just quit and then the holy Spirit's like, no, you've got more in the tank Keep running the race, keep going. And I started finding like this place of communion with God. And then suddenly while I'm writing, I start thinking about history and I start thinking about other people's journeys. And that's where the Underground Railroad piece started to come in. And I thought, wow, what if I, what if I retraced these steps and use this as a way to bring, bring the nation into the conversation in a healthy way. And so basically this year I've been pretty hardcore. I'm riding between 120 and 150 miles a week.
And yeah, I did 25 yesterday. I did 60 on a couple of days before that. So just kind of working my way up, building that base. Eating, eating right, watching a lot of videos.
[00:11:30] Speaker A: Come on, protein, get it in, get the protein in.
[00:11:33] Speaker B: All of that. Yeah. So it's been, it's been transformative experience. Just, just preparing for it for sure.
[00:11:39] Speaker A: And you're going to be, go. So you're going to be gone from home then like consecutively for a long time, right?
[00:11:44] Speaker B: No, I originally I, I honestly originally I was going to do about a 1400 mile journey from Louisiana up to Canada in one hit, which would have taken about 45 days.
And that, that time commitment, that sacrifice, you know, being away from the family just was not working out. So a better journey is we're going to stretch this out over the course of about 12 to 14 months and we're going to ride in segments, different parts of the country. So the Underground Railroad was not just one route, it was many different routes from different parts of the country. And so we're going to, we're going to do those, we're going to navigate those routes, but also stop through some of the key communities. I think the power of it is that it's not just a story of those from the African diaspora getting free. It's also the story of the Second Great Awakening, a move of God that gripped the hearts of white slave owners and white business owners and community leaders who by the power of the Spirit, they realize, whoa, slavery is an affront to Jesus and to the gospel. And we want to leverage our impact and our resources to participate in their freedom. And so to be able to revisit that story, it's not a fearful thing, it's a hopeful thing. And it tells the story of black and white and, you know, God's plan of freedom and redemption that he brought forth after hundreds of years of intercession and prayer and longing for freedom. And how that was answered through a multi ethnic and multicultural Move of God, really, that is part of our nation's inheritance. And I think the timing of it's important here in our 250th year as a nation.
[00:13:36] Speaker A: Yes. Well, listen, I cannot wait. How can people follow along? Like, is this going to be the second book, then you're going to collect all this stuff and write it up, or can we follow along as you go?
[00:13:45] Speaker B: You can follow along. We're actually going to be filming every segment that is written and interviewing families we've connected with, the descendants of, you know, certain settlements, certain abolitionist communities. So I'm going to be sitting down with them as we stop through. We're going to have meals together through something we call the table, just to talk about some of these things and. And kind of rediscover the stories. So there'll be two ways to follow along. One will be our YouTube channel. We'll have a dedicated channel with these episodes releasing on the channel. And then two, a podcast with those discussions from the descendants of both the. The slave trade and of the freedom kind of the conductors along the railroad, those families.
[00:14:32] Speaker A: So, so cool. Okay, plug it right now. Where. What's the best way? How do we. How do we get access to this?
[00:14:40] Speaker B: Yeah, I would say we have a few different channels. So the. The easiest way is to get on.
Follow me, Jonathan Tremaine.com go to Jonathan Tremaine.com and then connect on the different social media channels that are. Are listed there.
[00:14:56] Speaker A: Awesome. All right, well, let's get into your book. It's called Make Straight the Path, and I'm going to tell you I'm doing something a little bit different with you. That is not my, like, typical method, but as I was reading through your book, I just kept taking notes and notes and notes and notes. So what I'm going to actually do is I'm just going to speak your own words back to you because there were so many that I wanted to unpack.
And then we'll just kind of go through it a little bit and actually, let's back up because here I am. I'm like, you wrote the book. You know what we're talking about. I read it. I know what I'm talking. But I just realized, like, oh, for the listener, let's give them a little more context really quick, and then we'll dig some more into your words of what makes straight the path. Give us the broad overview.
[00:15:35] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, so the broad overview of make straight the path. Yeah, it's essentially this reaction.
At some level, I'm recapping my own journey into activism, starting out as a missionary. And over the last several years, especially the last decade or more, we have been in what I call a decade of rage, this kind of intensified decade of social, cultural, and political polarization, ethnic and tribal conflicts. And many have asked the question, like, where is Jesus? And how does my faith inform my passion for justice?
Is it possible for Jesus to be at the center of my pursuit or. Or our pursuits for justice? And so this book is really one kind of a reintroduction of the work of the spirit of God in the principled pursuit of moral righteousness and social transformation in a way that reflects God's heart.
But it's also a kind of a challenge and a call to the church to, like, examine our ways and exit our. Our tendencies to tribe up like our ethnic tribalism, our political tribalism, and rediscover the way of Jesus.
And so my hope is that it stirs a new imagination for the church and catalyzes a fresh wave of what I call holy activism from the church in our day.
[00:17:29] Speaker A: At one point, you warn against activism movements that are detached from transformational agendas.
And I think, especially right now, you know, we're seeing all kinds of Christian movements using scripture for their protest signs or propaganda.
So what would you tell the listeners? How can we tell if something is in fact detached from the transformation that Jesus is actually after?
[00:17:52] Speaker B: Well, I think one of the defining realities of the substance or the vitality of a movement is the. The spiritual principle that, you know a tree by the fruit that it bears. The Christian or those who do activism in the name of Jesus, there. There's a defined set of fruits that attend or bear witness to a. A move or a movement that bears the name of Jesus. And that is the fruits of the spirit, the fruits of righteousness. And so here's the thing.
Is your agenda producing love?
Is there an increase of love, first of all, in you, in your activism? As you. If you have a goal with your activism and you're pursuing that goal and it happens to target a certain political ideology or certain issue, and there's people attached to that issue, as you always are, there always.
Is your love for the person that you're confronting growing, or are you becoming more embittered and more angry with them as you pursue this? Are you growing in gentleness, patience, self control, kindness, all those different things? And then secondly, not only is. Is it your heart that you're looking at, but you're looking at, yes, there's confrontation and there's conflict. At times in these moments.
But does the conflict ultimately produce those fruits over the course of a year, two years, three years, whatever? Can you look at the season or the moment of.
Of confrontation or disruption that often comes with some form of activism?
And can you actually measure. Is there a witness corporately that, wow, yeah, that was a tough moment. But on the other side of it, we're seeing these fruits. We can actually see the measurable fruits of righteousness.
If not, then it's probably rooted in something that's more carnal than holy.
[00:20:07] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, that's good. I like that word, carnal.
[00:20:10] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:10] Speaker A: Well, and a lot of your. Throughout the book, too, you talk about civil righteousness as something that's different from civil rights. Can you just kind of unpack that for us? Like, what do you. What's the distinction between those two things?
[00:20:23] Speaker B: Yeah, I would say if you, if you ask people to define social justice, you might get 20 different definitions, but you'll get a definition like people have some grid for social justice. And oftentimes justice deals with the systems and the structures and the laws and, you know, the. The externals. Right. That we see in society. But if you ask people, what is social righteousness?
There's not a widespread imagination for that. Now in certain political leanings, there is even more so lately. But. But the truth is righteousness deals with our internals and justice deals with our externals. And so rights is an external expression, but righteousness is the internal condition from which the external expression flows.
[00:21:22] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:21:23] Speaker B: Does that make sense?
[00:21:24] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:21:24] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:25] Speaker A: And I would argue, as I'm sure you're trying to do also, that, like, both are necessary.
[00:21:30] Speaker B: Critical.
[00:21:31] Speaker A: Right?
[00:21:31] Speaker B: Yeah, they're absolutely critical. I always say Jesus's justice agenda begins with internal transformation and leads to external reformation.
If you have been transformed by Jesus, you will become a transformer. Because if you spend time with him, he invites you where he's going and to do what he's doing. And he's always out on the margins, always crossing the borders and the boundaries, always, you know, taking you into uncomfortable places. And the truth is, we've. We've kind of missed that. And so right alignment, I think, with him brings us into proximity to people who are not like us. And.
[00:22:12] Speaker A: Amen.
[00:22:13] Speaker B: Yeah.
So that's, That's. That's kind of what.
A reintroduction of who he is and then who we are in light of him and what that means for what we're to do, and then what our cities, communities, what the systems and structures look like as a result of that.
[00:22:31] Speaker A: Yeah, well, one of the phrases that I highlighted that stuck out to me the most is you said that culture can be transformed, but first must come transform transformed people. And I feel like this is what you're saying, and I think it stuck out to me because I believe we tend to do the opposite. Right, right. We tend to do. So I want to know what happens when untransformed people actually succeed in transforming culture. Because it can happen that way.
[00:22:56] Speaker B: It can happen. What happens is the king. There's the kingdom of. Of light in the kingdom of darkness.
And the truth of Genesis 1 is that God reveals himself as creator, and then he endows every image bearer with the ability to create.
And so whether we are creating a world that is. Is returning us to the garden that is. That is beautifying the earth, or whether we create things that are continuing to prop up and empower the fallen nature of our earth, that's what happens when untransformed people transform culture. They are actually continuing to build the Tower of Babel versus the reversal of that, which was the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, which was every tribe and tongue and nation together given a new language and a new constitution that reflects God's kingdom and his government and his ways.
[00:24:03] Speaker A: And.
[00:24:03] Speaker B: And so there are movements that have the appearance of.
Of being shalom, you know, of bringing shalom. But they ultimately are.
Are kind of the shadow side of the kingdom of God. They're a false doctor. King called it a pagan peace. And we will become false peacemakers in our unredeemed nature. Or we can become true shalom makers, true peacemakers as sons and daughters of God, which the Beatitude says, blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the sons of God.
[00:24:39] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, it just so clearly to me, and I want people to read your book, but it's so clearly to me, it all works together, right? This righteousness and transformation. And like, I just see it all just like we need it all together. And yeah, when we. When we are missing a piece, that's when things kind of go sideways.
[00:24:56] Speaker B: They do. They do. I. In the book I talk about in Isaiah 28, it. It says righteousness will be the plumb line and justice will be the measure. And if you think of what a plumb line is, a plumb line is when you're building a house, if you're framing a house, and you. You set up the frame for the wall at. To the naked eye, the frame can look straight, but the contractor or the. The carpenter will take a measuring line, a Plumb, It's a plumb line. And hold it up against. And then suddenly this dot will move and it will tell you, actually it looks straight, but it's off. It's not level.
[00:25:34] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:25:35] Speaker B: You know, and God's saying, in a very similar sense, when it comes to nation building or comes to community building or whatever we're doing, there's, there's a way that it seems, it seems like it's a good thing, it seems like it's level. But eventually if you build a house not according to righteousness, it can go sideways, nations can go sideways, policies can go sideways, agendas can go sideways, because righteousness, meaning the right way, according to God's standard, has not been adhered to. And so finally you, you build this thing and then, you know, 20, 30 years later, you're like, why is it producing this fruit? It's like actually the foundation is crooked. It's not, it's not level.
And so letting righteousness be that measure for which and by which we pursue justice is critical.
[00:26:27] Speaker A: Yeah, well, and you talk too about, and I see this as kind of connected, the different definitions that people have for things. Right. Like in the book, you talk about how people have vastly different definitions of what freedom truly is. And I see this all connected.
What would you consider like a Christ centered version of freedom?
And Jonathan Tremaine, how is it different from the way, I will say some Americans tend to talk about freedom?
[00:26:56] Speaker B: Yeah, I would say freedom first of all, from, from Christ's perspective.
It's not a freedom that's centered in human.
This, this is what, Come on, it's okay, like, but the freedom that Christ brings is not, is not necessarily centered just in human rights.
Because a human rights centered freedom is actually humanism. It puts, it puts us at the center of all things. The ultimate purpose of, of life is, is the satisfaction of human liberty, right. Human expression, all these different things.
I think freedom from God's perspective starts with us being free from first of all, the true enemy, the bondage of sin, the fall of man.
Paul said it in Romans. He says, who can liberate me from this body of death?
What's it matter if you have all the freedoms in the world to go and die, like to go kill yourself because you can smoke whatever you want to smoke and you know, be with whoever you want to be in all these different things. The first definition of freedom is freedom from death itself. And so the, the, the liberation then begins to go, okay, what systems and structures exist on earth that are, that are keeping us from that freedom, from the freedom that Jesus paid for, for us to live in a paradise, reality, eternally.
And even now, it's not just, hey, let's wait till we die. But Jesus said, thy kingdom come, pray this way. Thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven. And so a freedom that, that goes now to the systems and the structures and the. And the laws and the, you know, the, the way we live together to where love begins to be.
Love is such a power. It's not just a tone of voice. It's not just a concept. Love is a power.
And when love is the power that fuels, drives, and dictates even the laws of the land, then it will produce an atmosphere. I know this sounds crazy, but it actually produces atmospheres of freedom, like love.
Love.
Dr. King understood this, that love is the liberating power.
And when. When love is the motivation and the.
The kind of the substance behind our freedom pursuits, love actually prefers one another. So love produces honor. You know, a freedom pursuit that's just for black folks. Like, you know, I. I know black history. I've lived it. I am black, you know, but the gospel level of freedom goes okay.
I have been liberated just from my earth, liberated from my primary earthly identity as a black man, and all of the history and the struggle that's come with that. And now out of love, I've. I have a global family that transcends my own ethnicity.
So now, because I love God and I love his creation and his family, I want to pursue justice for the Mongolians.
I want to see them liberated into the fullness of everything that they've been created for. And so I know that's a really long and detailed and complex answer, but I would say that his definition of freedom is something that comes first by the spirit, through the spirit, by revelation, and then it. It transforms the outworking of the way that we pursue and even talk about freedom in our nation.
[00:31:04] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I basically heard you say, you know, it's so trans transformational that once we experience that true freedom ourselves, then we genuinely want it for other people.
[00:31:13] Speaker B: Right, Exactly.
[00:31:16] Speaker A: I love this conversation about freedom. Freedom because it's not just about what we want for ourselves, but what we want for other people. That's something that Christianity tends to miss, especially when freedom or even faithfulness are framed as individual and personal. I wrestle with this very concept in my book, the Other side of how to Follow Jesus when easy answers no longer work. It's about what happens when the faith you inherited no longer fits the way it used to. And how questioning some of what you were taught thought can help you see people the way God sees them and, yes, even actually love people the way Jesus modeled. It's available for you to read today through the link in the show notes or wherever you get your books. All right, now let's take this conversation with JTT one level deeper.
Jt, do you think that it's like you talked about systems and structures. Right. And so I always see, you know, there's in the church.
[00:32:11] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:32:11] Speaker A: Then there's outside of the church.
Do you think one of those is more to blame? Like, where are the systems and structures? And it's easy, right, to go, oh, it's outside the church. And everything in the church is great. But, like, I don't know that that's always the case either.
[00:32:23] Speaker B: No, not at all.
Not at all. No, I. I think that.
I think that we.
We have systems, structures. I mean, the church historically has actually been complicit in actually forming and validating structures in the culture that are ultimately antithetical to the gospel. I was in South Africa earlier this year, at the beginning of the year in February, and I learned in Stellenbosch, it's the home of a denomination.
I won't say it. You can research it, and you can find it easily. But the. There's one denomination that was prominent in South Africa that actually created seminaries and created a theology, a whole. Developed a whole defense of apartheid. And so they. They empowered theologically the apartheid system in South Africa through the church.
And so when I say that I'm going that the same systems that oppress in the world are really the same systems that oppress in the church. And so what we have to do is realize, you know, we live in an age where we see and touch and feel flesh and blood. But our culture and our cultures encourage us to name the enemy as flesh and blood.
But what scripture tells us is that we actually are fighting spiritual forces of wickedness. And they're. Those spiritual forces are not creative. They do the same thing. So I did gang intervention for many years at the beginning of my ministry. And you'd have a community filled with people who are all the same skin color.
So the enemy couldn't divide them on ethnicity or skin color.
So the enemy says, okay, well, you wear a red T shirt, you wear a blue T shirt, you wear a yellow T shirt. You call yourself a vice Lord. You call yourself a Crip, you call yourself a blood. You call yourself a gangster disciple. Now kill each other, because now you've Tribed up. Right. And in the same way that same system has, has worked in the church. We just don't. Maybe it's not Bloods and Crips, but maybe it's Baptist versus Methodist.
Okay. Maybe it's not that.
[00:34:54] Speaker A: Progressives and the liberals.
[00:34:59] Speaker B: So the enemy all over the world throughout time has done the exact same thing. Divide. Get you to tribe up and really idolize some sort of tribal allegiance over your allegiance to Jesus, who has actually created a new humanity.
You're one in him. But don't do that. Don't understand that, don't believe that, don't really live that out.
[00:35:25] Speaker A: Yeah, well, you do. I want to lean into this one step further because you, you talked about, you know, that it's Satan's strategy to keep us oppressed and divided like this and to wage war on our understanding of who Christ is.
[00:35:36] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:35:37] Speaker A: So I think we all understand division. Right. Every like understand what you just said. But what do you think people misunderstand about Jesus, you know, especially when it comes to this dividing nature.
[00:35:49] Speaker B: Yeah. I think for one, we don't understand that justice is actually the preeminent work that he came to the earth for.
[00:36:05] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:36:06] Speaker B: I mean, it's actually.
Isaiah speaks of it so clearly, but particularly in Isaiah 2, it says that in the last days all the nations will stream to God's holy mountain and he will ultimately decide the disputes between the nations. So he sits as king and he says, okay, all of the civil wars and all of the disputes that all the ethno linguistic people groups of the earth have endured, I'm going to settle the issue once and for all. In Isaiah 42, it says, Behold my servant upon whom I place my spirit, he will bring forth justice to the nations. The book of Revelation speaks of him coming, returning as king, and actually bringing forth justice for truth. And even judging kings is pretty wild. Trampling up the kings of the nations, all of the winepress of the nations, all these different things. And you go, wait a second.
The ultimate king and judge of the earth, he's holding all nations, all peoples accountable to how they either acted justly and loved mercy and walked humbly, or, or they didn't, you know. And so I think understanding him first as king and judge as the just one, but then secondly, understanding that he is also creator. In the beginning was the Word, the Word was God, the Word was with God, and the Word became flesh. How did that Word became flesh? Well, as a creative he, he fleshed himself out through the beauty of the diversity of the families of the earth. So there's something that you, Kristen, reflect. There's a unique beauty, just even as an individual that you alone carry. But then there's a beauty that you and your, your nuclear family carry. Then there's a beauty that your, your ethnic and heritage carries in a reflection.
And Paul said it this way. He said, you know, I pray that together with all the saints, you might be able to grasp the width, the height, the depth, the breadth of the love of God. In other words, it is impossible for us to understand the beauty of Jesus and the fullness of what he looks like, sounds like, feels like, and moves like, without being together with all the saints, embracing their expression, if that makes sense. So I think that's the thing, is that we have to understand that Jesus does not necessarily. He does look like us, and he doesn't.
The Jesus that looks like us, that we worship, that side of Jesus that we see is a very small fraction of the fullness of what he looks like. And I can see that fullness when I see him not only in me and what he looks like in my cultural expression and experience, but when I see him and I recognize him in you and your cultural expression and in them, whoever them the other is. And so I think that's what we've been missing and what, as we mature again, the Apostle Paul says in Ephesians, when we come to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, what is that fullness like? There's a maturity that we're going to come to as believers and as the church where we actually start to get a more complete revelation of who he is before he returns, then he returns and we recognize Him.
[00:39:43] Speaker A: Really get it.
[00:39:44] Speaker B: Yeah, then we'll really get it.
[00:39:46] Speaker A: That's what's so. Yeah, just really understanding and being able to start to see the imago DEI and all people is like, revolutionary in my faith because I'm a white, cisgendered female. Like, I grew up in a white bubble in the evangelical.
You know, like, it all works for my experience and all. Like, it just. I never had to consider the experience of other people or that God or Jesus might look like someone else. And so being able to have both right to go, Jesus looks like me is really great for knowing that, like, in all of my extra ness and whatever, I'm still a reflection of God. And also then being able to see and so are you and so is every single other person that's ever been created also looks like Jesus. Like, it's a.
On one hand, it's complex. And on the other hand I'm like, it's the simplest thing ever. Why does it take us so long to get this right?
[00:40:40] Speaker B: I mean, I was forced, I think the African American in America, the African American who's going after God is forced to set aside cultural preference and tradition to find him. In other words, I, you know, I grew up in the black Missionary Baptist Church and I had only seen a preacher preaching a three piece suit and worship was a choir in robes, right?
And then a friend invites me when I'm in high school to his youth group and the youth pastor shows up in a Batman and Robin costume. Like, I'm like, what?
And he's on stage and khaki shorts and Birkenstocks playing Lord, I lift your name on high, you know, And I'm like, what in the cult is this?
But it. So from my, it was foreign to me and I'm going, this can't be holy, this can't be God. This doesn't look like me, it doesn't sound like me, and I don't even like it.
And then, but he preached a message that night and it was like truth.
And so my friend's like, you want to come back? And part of me was like, not really. But then the other side of me was like, but I want to hear what he has to say again.
So I go back and I go back and I bet. And that became a key part of my formation, that youth group, because they were teaching things that I didn't hear in my cultural experience or tradition. And my view of God expounded and expanded and that's been me today. I can move in and out of radically different denominational spaces and non denominational spaces. I can preach at a all white hipster church in Portland on a Sunday or on a Saturday night and then fly and preach at an all black Kojic, you know, Pentecostal church on Sunday morning. And I'm realizing, oh, this is my family, this is what it's like, you know, and, and do, does the average white Christian, would they be comfortable being formed for a few years in a space with people that look nothing like them?
[00:42:47] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:42:49] Speaker B: What if, what if that's what we need, you know, what if we need to drink from the well and the beauty that exists within all of these different spaces in order to have a more well rounded kind of formation, you know, and so for sure.
[00:43:06] Speaker A: Well, because it's different perspectives that yeah, you would never, if you're only in this one homogeneous people group forever. That's the only perspective of theology you're going to get. It's the only perspective of God. Like, it's all you're going to get. A narrow lane.
[00:43:18] Speaker B: That's pretty right? Exactly. Yeah.
[00:43:21] Speaker A: Okay. Well, let me ask you this then, because you, you use the phrase scriptural objectivity in your book and I was like, I don't know if I under. If I agree with this, but also maybe I don't understand what you're saying because what I do hear you saying right now is that we bring all of our, you know, assumptions, culture, experiences, our theology to it. So help me understand what you mean by scriptural objectivity.
[00:43:46] Speaker B: Yeah, I think.
In that passage where I talk about that part of it is when we are so allied with our own perspectives or people, it can be difficult for us to allow scripture to confront our culture.
[00:44:12] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:44:13] Speaker B: It can be hard for us to, to allow scripture to correct our ideologies or even our cultural preferences and traditions.
And when that happens, that, that usually is a sign of some level of unhealthy allegiance or maybe even idolatry, if that makes sense. So, yeah, that's, I think that's what I was referring to.
[00:44:42] Speaker A: I was like, surely he doesn't mean we have all of this. But then Scripture is, you know, very objective and clear and whatever. Because I was like, ah, I mean, yeah, but like, you know, like we said all the different perspectives, so.
[00:44:54] Speaker B: Right, exactly.
[00:44:56] Speaker A: That makes more sense. And actually it leads me to the next thing I wanted to ask you about because you talked about, right. This conformity to Christ and how there's a disconnect between pursuing holiness, maybe in public policy with this conformity to Christ, especially when it comes to people on the margins or people that are not like us, and how this disconnect can make us more susceptible to idolatry and crowning false messiahs.
[00:45:21] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:45:22] Speaker A: And for some people, it's hard for them to see that. For others of us, it's very obvious that we tend to do that.
So I guess my question is, what do you think of false messiah promises, Christians specifically, that makes us willing to crown one and go like, okay, this is, this is the guy.
[00:45:45] Speaker B: Well, I think any, any great leader can articulate the felt needs of, if not the masses.
They can articulate what many people, at least in a certain space or demographic feel.
And so that's step one to, to gaining influence in being a leader is, wow, he just.
Or she just. They represent. They just said exactly what I feel. They, they get it. They understand me. They.
And then what they do then is they promise.
It starts getting messianic when they say, no one else has been able to do this, but I can do this.
And if I, if you elect me or if you follow me, I will do what no one else has done.
And that sounds great. I mean, that's politics, right? But the problem with that is that oftentimes, especially in our cultural context today, these are promises that actually Jesus alone can fulfill. Like he. This is a generational.
This is an issue that hasn't been solved in thousands of years. And you're going to solve it.
I'm trying to say it. And so then the church. So then the church gets behind it. And I'll say that whether it's white conservatives or whether it's black Protestants, whether it's a liberal or a progressive candidate, or whether it's conservative candidate, the church, in many ways, I feel, has acquiesced the efficacy of the gospel and the truth that the kingdom of heaven is at hand and it's within us and we've kind of farmed out the things that God actually called us to do in love with balance and clarity and prophetic sensibility.
And we've just said, well, let's throw our weight and our convening power behind the politicians and they'll get it done.
[00:47:48] Speaker A: You know, do you think I was going to use the word laziness? But that's not nice. Do you think it's an ease? Do you think that's what we're going for, is like, like an ease or a comfort of.
Like you said, we just acquiesce it to other people of, like, okay, well, you just, you can do this. And then I don't really have to put in any effort. I don't have to really.
[00:48:07] Speaker B: Absolutely. A lot. Absolutely. And we've lost our. We, we're. We're not present, we're not present in the places of pain where people are looking for leadership. I think that's the key. I live in Ferguson, Missouri.
For the last decade, I have probably been on the streets of a conservative number would be 60 plus or 60 protests in the middle. And some of those, when they weren't protests, when they were riots and then they became protests. So there's like an initial reactive response writing. And in those spaces I'm the minority. When I say that I'm the minority, that's there not necessarily just to represent like my ethnicity, but I'm there to represent like the kingdom of heaven, like Jesus in those spaces. And most Christians sit at home and Watch the news and listen to what CNN has to say or whoever has to say about the issue, and then get on social media and type. But I'm going, where would Jesus and his disciples have been?
They would have been in the thick of these things, ministering to people, advancing kingdom, being proximate, being present, being at the tables where the discussions matter. Or not even just trying to knock on the door to get to the table. They would create the table.
[00:49:29] Speaker A: Yeah, they go.
[00:49:30] Speaker B: And, and so I think that's the key is, is we have farmed out our, Our witness. And, and a lot of the language that gets used today is an indication of how, how removed from reality we are.
[00:49:51] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:49:52] Speaker B: Like when I hear some groups criticize.
Well, I, I'm wondering how, how detailed I can be.
[00:50:01] Speaker A: You can say what you want to say. If we need to edit it, we will, but I probably won't.
[00:50:06] Speaker B: Well, I, I'll go back. Because we're coming up on the anniversary of Charlie Kirk's.
[00:50:11] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:50:12] Speaker B: Assassination.
[00:50:13] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:50:14] Speaker B: And when he was assassinated, churches Immediately, within 24 hours, all over the nation started holding vigils and creating space for people to come and lament and mourn.
And so that was because there was enough.
There were enough evangelicals in America who identified with Charlie Kirk's death and were horrified by it.
The church stopped. Everything shut down. Maybe they had Wednesday night prayer already scheduled or maybe they had, you know, an outreach or whatever, and they canceled those things and said, just come, we're going to hold a prayer vigil. We're going to mourn. People took pictures of that and then went on social media and took pictures of the. The reaction in the streets of America after George Floyd death versus the reaction of, of America in Charlie Floyd or Charlie Kirk's death. And there was captions that went around and pastors and people were sharing it that says, one of these is not like the other.
Well, whose fault is that? Right when there is disruption. If the church had that revelation that I was telling you, if white evangelical churches, and I'm not just trying to target, but I'm just saying this is.
[00:51:31] Speaker A: Yes, it's fine.
[00:51:32] Speaker B: Those same churches had said, had a revelation that George Floyd is an image bearer and that there are people are mourning and they heard the scriptures that says mourn with those who are mourning, why did they not say, you know what?
George Floyd didn't look like us. We don't fully understand it, but what we do know is that there are people in our city who are outraged, who are hurting and are in mourning. Let's create the space for mourning here so that there can be good grief, you know, and so if we had a theology of lament or theology of mourning, whether you like Floyd or not, whether you're black, white, whatever, the truth is, you would have responded the same way. And of course, if the church creates the space for healthy lament and mourning, it's not going to look the same.
But instead of us creating the space, we didn't show up, you know, or they didn't show up, whoever I showed up.
But instead of creating that space, other leadership steps in that doesn't carry the values of peace or of, you know, whatever it may be. And what happened, happened. So whose fault is it? Is it that black culture is more violent? Is it that, you know, BLM is this progressive, Da, da, da, da, da, Whatever you want to say. Or is it that. No, the church has been compromised and we, We.
Yeah, I'll. I'll stop there. I'll stop.
[00:53:06] Speaker A: Yes. No, I'm. I'm. Listen, I am with you. And I think, yes, there's nothing wrong if you want to have a prayer service, a grief service for Charlie Kirk, for whoever it is, great. But, yes, also, let's have it for George Floyd. Let's have it for Breonna Taylor. Let's have it for.
Oh, my gosh, I'm missing his name.
[00:53:30] Speaker B: The.
[00:53:30] Speaker A: The. The young man who just walked into traffic because he's having to wear a physical monitor right now because ICE is tracking him and wants to send him back to Haiti, a country that is very, very dangerous and volatile. Like.
[00:53:43] Speaker B: Right.
[00:53:43] Speaker A: If we can't see the need to grieve and lament all people, that's the issue. That's what you're saying. That's what we understand. We're picking and choosing whose life is valuable enough and who is worthy enough to grieve and lament and who is not.
[00:53:59] Speaker B: Yeah.
If this gospel, there is no partiality in Christ, none.
There isn't. And so if you, if you want, if you're holding prayer meetings to pray for the president, our current sitting president, and you are posting and saying, pray for the president, pray for the president, then the next person who's elected, if they are of a different political persuasion, I need to see that same level of zeal and energy.
If I can't, this is. When I talk about our. Earlier I alluded to these movements. How do you know if it's transformational, how is it bearing the fruits of righteousness?
Jesus was as equally concerned with the, with the Redemption of the thieves on the cross.
Like the people who should have been his enemies. He loved them.
So I need to pray for Biden, for Kamala with the same level of urgency, fervency and intensity as I do Trump, or vice versa. I need to pray for Trump with the same level of urgency as I do Kamala, if that's the way I'm leaning. And I think that's the thing where we have to separate.
Like, what is this Americanized, kind of Western compromised, tribalized Christianity that we have that doesn't allow us to. To love well in the way that Jesus would.
[00:55:29] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I know that make straight the path is going to help people to answer that question and figure that out. Last question for you, jt, because the podcast is called Becoming Church. How can the people listening become the church to the people around them?
[00:55:42] Speaker B: Them?
I think that we can become the church through, first of all, having the, the disciplines of fasting and prayer in our lives, of being a house of prayer, becoming a people who host his presence. Well, you know, where, you know, the book talks about the role of prayer and fasting and meditation on scripture in producing a righteous life within us, producing those fruits of righteousness within us. And then as we are made righteous, we make righteous. And so I think to become the church to our neighbors is to very simply, a really simple step is open up our tables.
Jesus was seen at the table over and over. His first miracles at the wedding at Cana were most likely at a table. And so I think that there is the need for us to realize that he is present with us in the meal, you know, in the feast, not just the Eucharist communion table, but actually the breaking of bread, the fellowshipping with our neighbors and with one another, with our enemies. You know, when's the last time we've sat down with someone who looks different than us, who, you know, votes differently or thinks differently, and instead of doing a tit for tat on social, just go, you know what? Hey, how soon can we have a meal and let's have five meals or 10 meals just to parse through this and, and become friends, you know, over the.
[00:57:23] Speaker A: Not even talk about that stuff. Talk about other things that.
[00:57:25] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:57:26] Speaker A: Not the whole, you know, your entity of your being is not just that.
[00:57:31] Speaker B: Not just that. We need to lean into the glory of what it, what it means to live in a, in a multi ethnic and multicultural society and not run away from it. Yeah, but like, lean into it and what if a miracle could happen there? Matthew 22 says the kingdom of heaven is like a wedding feast.
So what if there's like some experience of like the glory of God, like the really being church that happens at just over a meal, you know, at the table. And I think if we do that and we can see the church begin to spread a table for truth and reconciliation and healing in our nation, who knows? Who knows what could happen?
[00:58:15] Speaker A: Who knows what if a miracle could happen? I love that so much. Jonathan Tremaine Thomas, thank you for being here. This was so wonderful, so insightful.
This has been so great.
[00:58:26] Speaker B: Kristin, thank you so much for having me.
[00:58:30] Speaker A: What if a miracle could happen? I'm going to let that thought stick with me this week, especially in situations or conversations that could be a little contentious. I'm praying it sticks with you too, and that it helps you to lean in to where God could be asking you to bring his kingdom to earth. I do also want to fix my earlier misstep and say the name of Pierre de Maspel because I want to honor not only his life, but all of the Haitian people who are currently facing a reality where they may be sent to a country where violence and kidnapping are so rampant that the US has issued a travel ban for Americans. You can learn more about our current refugee crisis in my recent episode with Matthew Sorens from World Relief. And if you want to know more on justice and righteousness, I also recommend the justice of Jesus by Father Joe Ash Thomas, who was also on Becoming church in episode 104. You can get his book along with JT's Make Straight the Path through our bookshop.org or Amazon lists, both linked in the show notes. Until next time. Thanks so much for listening and keep becoming the church of the people around you.
