Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: You know, you're supposed to pray, worship, read your Bible and maybe even add in the really holy things like fasting and lament. But do you really know why? Today's episode will help you to answer that question. I'm Kristin Mockler Young, and this is Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. Each week we explore the intersection of faith, culture, and everyday life through the lens of Jesus.
Today, my friend Monica Richie is back on the show to talk about spiritual disciplines and how we can get more out of them.
Not in a way of building our own self righteousness, but to actually let them transform us.
Monica, welcome back to the Becoming Church podcast.
[00:00:54] Speaker B: Hi. Thanks for having me. Good to be back.
[00:00:56] Speaker A: Yes, I know. I love that I'm like, hello, welcome. Like we haven't just been talking for 15 minutes.
[00:01:01] Speaker B: Yeah, totally. Uh huh.
[00:01:03] Speaker A: What was years ago that you were here? Years ago?
[00:01:07] Speaker B: Years ago. I probably like more in the. Was maybe that the beginning of my seminary journey? Maybe, possibly.
[00:01:13] Speaker A: I think you hadn't even, I don't even know if you'd started seminary yet. I mean, you were like, you came on the podcast, you said yes to me when basically no one was even listening to it. So thank you.
[00:01:22] Speaker B: Well, thanks for having me. I don't think anybody was saying yes to me either then.
Perfect.
[00:01:28] Speaker A: Look at us. Look at us.
[00:01:28] Speaker B: Yeah, look at us now.
[00:01:31] Speaker A: Well, I'm so excited you're here to talk about. And we will get into in a second your book called Fashioned by Faith. Yeah. But I thought it would be really fun to jump into a quick, like, Q and A since you are a girl after my own heart who has a brand on like theology and fashion together.
So let's just do a quick little Q and A.
What is your favorite thing to wear to church?
[00:01:53] Speaker B: I would say I am a jeans gal.
So I know some people are like, oh, jeans. I feel like that culture's probably changed a little bit.
Yeah, I would say I do, but I do still like to like, look like, dress nice for a church. I mean, I think jeans count. Like, I wouldn't. I'm probably old because I'm like, I wouldn't wear ripped jeans. But
[00:02:20] Speaker A: meanwhile, there's the Sundays that I'm preaching and I'm like, is this too many rips for when I assume it? Maybe. Probably like maybe.
[00:02:27] Speaker B: I. Yeah, I mean, I'm. I'm a jeans and a sweater gal.
[00:02:32] Speaker A: Love it.
[00:02:33] Speaker B: Yep, love it.
[00:02:35] Speaker A: All right. What is a fashion trend that you think Mary Magdalene would love a cape.
[00:02:43] Speaker B: Right? Have you seen, like, those cute capes for fall?
Have you seen them? They're so cute.
[00:02:48] Speaker A: I would have never, ever, ever come up with that answer. But the second you said it, I was like, I think that's perfect.
[00:02:53] Speaker B: Absolutely. I know. It's like, yeah, yeah. Have you seen them, though? They're so cute. And I feel like she'd rock it. She looked great. Yeah.
[00:03:02] Speaker A: All right. What's the fashion trend that Jesus would hate?
[00:03:08] Speaker B: Okay, I'm going to give you my mom answer here.
[00:03:11] Speaker A: Okay. Are you coming after my ripped jeans?
[00:03:13] Speaker B: I'm not coming after you jeans. I'm.
This is my mom answer. I am going to say fast fashion.
[00:03:24] Speaker A: I love it.
[00:03:26] Speaker B: My kids get irritated with me because I don't order from certain places, and I won't buy from certain places because they're known to have unethical practices.
And they get really irritated. And I'm like, I know that you can't always.
You can't always. Right?
And believe me, I do order things from Amazon and that as well. But we do our best. We do our best to shop smart and ethically.
And I'm. I fully admit, I'm a fashion girly. I'm a shopper. I love to shop. But using wisdom and discernment with that. So I would say the fast fashion.
[00:04:07] Speaker A: That is the right answer.
[00:04:09] Speaker B: I'm going to choose yes. I'm gonna choose, like, rather than tracing your trends, I'm gonna choose developing your style. And so that takes a little bit more curation and thought, and it's a slower process.
[00:04:26] Speaker A: Yeah, No, I think it's brilliant. Listen, a part of me was praying. I was like, please don't say, like, crop tops and let's not get into, like, a purity culture.
[00:04:35] Speaker B: I know. No, no.
[00:04:36] Speaker A: Fast fashion's perfect because that's all. It's not actually about the clothes. It's about the people and the way people are treated and stuff.
[00:04:43] Speaker B: Just don't think that Jesus actually really would have a lot to say about what you put on your body, like, other than yes. You know, hey, was this created in an ethical fashion?
So, so smart.
[00:05:00] Speaker A: That was the perfect answer.
[00:05:01] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:05:02] Speaker A: Perfect.
[00:05:02] Speaker B: That's my mom answer.
[00:05:04] Speaker A: No, because. Yeah, I think that's your seminary answer, actually.
[00:05:08] Speaker B: Probably. And I know that my. If my kids heard that, they'd be like, it just. I would get a major eye roll. 1.
[00:05:15] Speaker A: I feel like I can say anything and get that reaction from my daughter. Pretty much.
[00:05:18] Speaker B: Pretty much. Yep.
Yep.
[00:05:21] Speaker A: Well, Monica, you talk about you get really, like, inspirational, you know, downloads and, like, thoughts when you're vacuuming.
So I want to know what's the most inspirational downhill you've ever had when you're just.
[00:05:32] Speaker B: Well, first of all, like, I don't know if other people can relate to this, but isn't vacuuming such a joy?
[00:05:37] Speaker A: No,
[00:05:40] Speaker B: I just feel like it's instant gratification. And like, my whole. My whole book is like a. You know, like, not seeking instant gratification, but it's like the minute you vacuum, it's so pretty. It's like you get lines.
Yes, I see. I get that, you know, everything, like, feels cleaner. So it's like, slightly meditative. I don't know.
I would say. I don't know that I have necessarily, like, one divine moment of inspirational vacuuming, but I do think through a lot of things while I'm vacuuming.
You also. I feel like I am working on it, but, like, trying not to always have noise in my ears. I was gonna ask, when you're vacuuming, like, you can't hear.
And so I.
I feel like I think through a lot of things while I'm vacuuming, but I also, alongside enjoying fashion, I do like design. So I'll, like, get inspiration for a room. Like, oh, yeah, this. This could use this here or that there, or. Okay. You know, whatnot. Yeah.
[00:06:43] Speaker A: Okay. So you're not getting Holy Spirit, like, you know, God is like a vacuum, and, like, spirituality is like these.
Okay.
[00:06:51] Speaker B: Not. No, not so much. No. It's mostly just.
Yeah. The thoughts in my head. I love it.
I love it, Working through it.
[00:07:02] Speaker A: And apparently you also love cheeseburgers.
[00:07:04] Speaker B: Oh, it's my favorite. Yeah. Okay. Love a cheeseburger.
[00:07:08] Speaker A: Here's a random but fun question for you. So you're. You've got your cheeseburger, your. From your favorite place, right? I need to know which part is represented by God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.
[00:07:17] Speaker B: Are you trying to get me canceled?
[00:07:20] Speaker A: No, but now I'm really curious about your answer.
[00:07:24] Speaker B: They all work together, of course, to form a delicious, nutritious meal.
Yeah.
[00:07:35] Speaker A: But I'm like. It's like God, the hamburger patty.
[00:07:37] Speaker B: No, we're not parceling these out.
[00:07:38] Speaker A: We're not doing it. We're not doing it.
[00:07:40] Speaker B: We are. They are together.
[00:07:42] Speaker A: Hey.
[00:07:42] Speaker B: Okay. Okay. Huh? Huh? I'm not committing blasphemy here. No, you're not gonna get me with that one. No.
[00:07:50] Speaker A: See, I was ready to, like, bring in something with, like, fries and, like, dipping sauce. Oh.
[00:07:55] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely not. Nope. We're all we are all working together.
[00:07:59] Speaker A: Three in one. Perfect. I love it.
Well, since you were here last, you did, as we mentioned, you went to seminary. And so I want to know for you, Monica, what's. And you like to always say, you know, I went to seminary so you don't have to.
[00:08:11] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:08:12] Speaker A: What's something fundamental within you that changed?
[00:08:15] Speaker B: Sure.
I think. Well, first of all, I always like just kind of want to say that I use that little tagline like your friend that went to seminary. So you don't have to like in jest, like it's light hearted.
Sometimes I get pushback on that phrase and I'm like, oh, I'm just actually being light hearted with that.
And it's more so an invitation, like, hey, I'm happy to share what I've learned. I think of it like, like, you know, you go online and you see people who are cooking meals or teaching you how to cook and they're like, oh, I went to culinary school, so like I can teach you these things. Yes.
And so it's coming from a light hearted place. So just making sure to preface that.
But there are so many. And I share this all the time, you know, this.
All of the fundamental shifts I think that have happened to me through seminary and I think I've got a video out there somewhere talking about it felt like almost like just deconstruction and then reconstruction, but like all really fast.
One of those fundamental shifts for me was there's just so many. I'm like have like three different ideas in my head. But a main one was this idea. And I don't know if people can relate to this too, but I kind of came to faith more in a, in a setting where your humanity was preached through a lens of wretchedness.
Oh, yeah. And whereas now I would see our humanity more.
Well, while I don't of course deny sin and the effects of sin, I would more so look at humanity as being created in love.
[00:10:07] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:10:08] Speaker B: And so that is something. And I know different traditions emphasize one over the other. And I'm not saying to do that. I'm just saying that was my experience and that was a fundamental shift for, for me.
[00:10:24] Speaker A: Yeah, same that was you. If you have not read Marty Solomon yet, especially the Gospel of Being Human. I need you to read that book.
[00:10:31] Speaker B: Oh, I have it. No, he.
[00:10:33] Speaker A: I have it back. I have it back here somewhere. I think it's also on the show. We did a whole conversation. But that also was one of my.
It changed everything for me about the way I see myself. The way I see God, the way I see other people.
So I love that.
[00:10:47] Speaker B: Yeah. For you.
[00:10:48] Speaker A: And, yeah, that's great, right?
[00:10:50] Speaker B: I think, like you said, it can change everything.
Yeah. Yeah, it really does.
[00:10:59] Speaker A: I want to break in really quickly to make sure you know that there is a catalog of additional content just waiting for you. With almost 200 episodes of becoming Church, there are conversations on everything from grief and body image to fear, and learning more about Christianity and how it has been formed and changed over the years. You can always head to BecomingChurch TV to hear those episodes. Plus, there are book lists on both bookshop.org and Amazon where you can find even more resources from the people who have been on this show. If there's a guest you've particularly loved, I encourage you to take it one step further to check out their books, their substacks, or the other content that they're putting out there just for you.
Now, remember, no online teacher is a replacement for God. But. But if you're looking to supplement your scripture reading, there's a whole list that's waiting.
All right, well, I've got your book right here. I love that your cover is shiny. My cover's shiny, too. I was so surprised. I didn't know, but I love this.
[00:11:55] Speaker B: Yeah, I do, too. They did a great job.
[00:11:58] Speaker A: It's so fun. So talk to us about theologically fashioned spiritual disciplines for deepening your relationship with God. There are a lot of, like, spiritual practice guides out there.
[00:12:09] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:12:09] Speaker A: What did you feel like was missing that you were like, hey, I. That you want to provide, you know, with this one?
[00:12:15] Speaker B: I felt like I want. So one thing I do is start off is reminding you, the reader and myself, that we are all made in the image of God. And my hope with doing that is that we can move into these disciplines with an understanding that we are participating in these disciplines from a place of love, rather than doing them to receive love.
[00:12:40] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:12:42] Speaker B: So I wanted to start out in that way, because a lot of times I think we see these guides and they're just like, here, do this. Yeah. And it's like, well, yeah, but why?
Ah, yeah, but why?
[00:12:54] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:55] Speaker B: And I also end the book with the reminder of we're doing this from a place of love, for a wholeness and a holiness.
And so that I always say, like, good theology has that, so that we're doing these so that we can become more whole and holy people, so that we can love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength, so that we can reflect his good image. That we are made in.
[00:13:28] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:13:28] Speaker B: Back out into the world that he still so loves. And so I wanted to include these, make it really practical because I feel like something that I didn't have prior to seminary was a way to embody and practice this faith that I claim to follow, that I claim to have, but I didn't have good ways of necessarily practicing it.
I felt like I was just kind of like guessing at things and, and that's part of it. Like just trial and error. Yeah, but so I wanted part of it to be super practical but also address the why. Why even that.
[00:14:12] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I think that's great. And like you said, I don't even know if I would have thought about that because I haven't thought about it the way you have. But like, yeah, a lot of them are just like, this is what you do. Because the Bible, it talks about it in the Bible or whatever. But like, no, there is a bigger,
[00:14:25] Speaker B: there's a bigger picture. Yeah.
[00:14:27] Speaker A: Well, and I even love the word fashioned, obviously. I love fashion. We both love fashion. But the word fashioned, you know, makes me think of being shaped.
[00:14:35] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:14:36] Speaker A: And right now a lot of what's shaping us is like algorithmic and it's instant. And you even mentioned like Instacart and Amazon overnight shipping. And what has this type of instant results culture done to the way that we interact with God?
[00:14:48] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think even without us being aware of it necessarily, we expect that God works on that same timeline that he can, he's, he's transforming us so instantly. Like we do this one practice, one time and boom, look at, look at me. Like I'm transformed.
But transformation takes years and it can like, can God work instantly?
[00:15:19] Speaker A: Of course.
[00:15:19] Speaker B: And I, I give an, an example of that in the book. But I think sometimes even when that does happen, we think that, oh, that's where it ends. But there's a.
God wants so much more for you than just that instant moment of feel good transformation.
And it takes endurance and you know, it's the age old saying of the, the same direction. Right.
Long obedience in the same direction. And so yeah, I wanted to address that in the book as well. And like we're continuously being shaped, fashioned. So what's, what's shaping you?
And again, just kind of address in some of those.
Again, my, my background is in social media. We both spent so much time in social media. So how is that shaping us?
[00:16:14] Speaker A: Well, and I mean even with transformation, okay, let's say God, you do like, okay, you get transformed like this in one Area, my friend, you're not done. Like, oh, yeah, we're on to the next.
[00:16:24] Speaker B: Like, now we're on to the next
[00:16:25] Speaker A: thing you should ever be done. Being transformed is my belief.
[00:16:28] Speaker B: Totally.
[00:16:29] Speaker A: If we think we've arrived, like, that probably is our first sign that whoops. Like, that's the area where.
Yeah.
Well, Monica, when you were here last time, you introduced us to a word, and now it is like a full tenant of your belief, apparently in the book, which is.
Am I saying it right?
Yeah, I've been out of the Midwest too long, girl. Okay. And so now you have ufta eschatology. I want to know what that is and why it's important if people don't know.
[00:16:56] Speaker B: In the Midwest. Yes. What we say is Utah. People say it all the time. It's kind of a thing. And so I thought it was just a cute way to introduce this. This idea of eschatology, which simply is the end times. And the reason I talk about it is because this was such a big thing for me. And again, another fundamental shift in this idea of what I thought the end times were going to look like. And just a huge shift for me, but a reminder, A reminder that we're living in this. This space where as. As believers in Jesus, our role is bringing heaven to earth. And so.
And again, I talk about it in the book. Just my grappling with a little bit of what that looked like.
And so, yeah, it was just, you know, we say, oofta.
[00:17:50] Speaker A: Oh yeah. People in the south definitely don't know what that is.
[00:17:53] Speaker B: Yeah, I know. Yeah. Yeah. And this call, this reminder. Right. To remember Eden and the harmony that existed there between God and ourselves and with others.
And so looking forward to. As we, as we bring heaven to earth and. And bringing these ideas together of harmony and how we play a role in that.
[00:18:17] Speaker A: Yeah.
Well, as I'm looking at the table of contents here, you've got all different kinds of spiritual practices from, you know, embracing mystery, lament, prayer, giving thanks, all kinds of things. Monica, is there one that is harder for you than the others? Or maybe that surprised you that you were like, why am I not good at this?
[00:18:36] Speaker B: I can tell you. Oh, so. And I'm super honest in the book. I don't like it.
That's the thing about spiritual disciplines too, right? Like, you're not going to like all of them. They're not comfortable.
[00:18:47] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:18:48] Speaker B: And that's not to say, like, you are pushing your. Yourself beyond, like, into a position of self abandonment, but discomfort is a part of growth.
And I talk about it in the book that you can't. And of course, right. Like I can't write a book about spiritual disciplines and then God not asked me to participate in them. It's like a bummer.
But the one I dislike the very most is fasting, any kind of fasting. So I talk about, like, I participated in a no buy fasting.
So that's the other part of this book. Right. I wanted to be really practical. So fasting might not for you look like restricting yourself from food. And perhaps that's not a good idea for you.
[00:19:30] Speaker A: Right? For some people it isn't.
[00:19:31] Speaker B: For some people that's not. But there could be another way to fast. And at the time, part of that was fasting from shopping, which is it's not fun. Any kind of fasting. I feel like, again, it's not fun.
[00:19:47] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:19:48] Speaker B: We are so used to being able to get what we want to get what we need pretty quickly, whether that be from online spaces or driving to a store. Or you might have to wait a week, five to seven days, and you're pulling your hair out because you had to wait five to seven days.
Which again, just working that muscle of waiting and purposeful waiting, intentional waiting and what participating in that practice looks like and how it makes room for God to move.
But yeah, I don't, I don't like fasting. It is uncomfortable and annoying and I'd rather not. But I have done it. I have done that fast. I've also done different kinds of dietary fasting.
[00:20:39] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I know people have fasted like social media or they've totally. All kinds of different things.
[00:20:44] Speaker B: All kinds of different things.
But yeah, it's super uncomfortable and I don't prefer it.
[00:20:50] Speaker A: Love it. Okay, well, let me ask you this because I am all about, like, we have to get comfortable being uncomfortable. I'm all about learning to embrace a discomfort. Do you also see Monica, I'm curious of like, you know, because there are. I'm curious if you think that there are seasons where you're like, hey, I don't have to. I'm gonna put this spiritual practice like on the shelf and not do it. Like, how do we know when we're
[00:21:13] Speaker B: like,
[00:21:16] Speaker A: I'm just not into this right now versus I need to do it anyway, or do you think that that's not even a thing?
[00:21:22] Speaker B: Totally a thing.
I would say so I do give in the book, like a list of questions to kind of walk through and self reflect because. And I can. One of the examples I give is when my. Before my kids were born, I spent a lot of time, like, in prayer and felt that this was just a really great way for me to connect with God, turn my heart towards him. And I really loved that time.
As they got older, they weren't napping. I was trying to do this same situation, but my life circumstances didn't allow for it.
[00:22:04] Speaker A: In a very different situation.
[00:22:05] Speaker B: Yeah, Very different set of circumstances. And honestly, I was getting super frustrated and irritable and I'm like, this is not the point of this. Like, what are we doing here? And so giving yourself the freedom to adjust. And that's again, why in this book, I wanted to make it so practical and give options like, hey, let's reflect. Maybe there is somebody in the home that maybe had a new baby. Maybe you're caring for an aging family member or who knows all sorts of different things.
But to have the freedom to say, hey, this isn't the right fit right now, so let's. Yeah, and you can't do all of these at once anyways. I can't. I can't be fasting. And, you know, spending hours in prayer a day, like, that's not going to be a realistic thing for my life. And so my hope here is that there's a lot of freedom for people to kind of say, oh, like, again, I give a list of questions at the end of the book and just thinking about, huh, how is this working?
Is this actually fashioning my heart to Jesus?
Or am I just doing this because I feel like I have to? I'm checking it off a list. It feels obligatory. It feels performative. So giving yourself some freedom to explore those thoughts with curiosity versus shame and judgment.
[00:23:32] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, that's good. We'll get into the obligatory piece in a second. But I do love that even, like now, too.
I mean, there's just so many different ways if you don't want to sit down and read your Bible. Like, there are Bible apps, there are prayer apps. Like, you can pray in the shower, you can listen to something in the car on your commute. Like, yeah, I don't think God cares if I'm opening my Bible pages or I'm listening to somebody with an Australian accent. Read it to me from, like, the message translation. Because, no, that's the season of life that I'm in right now, you know, And I'm not saying that I never opened my Bible.
[00:24:06] Speaker B: Right.
[00:24:06] Speaker A: But I'm getting it in my ears a lot more than my eyes right now. Yeah, I don't think it matters.
[00:24:12] Speaker B: No. And I think we see online these really curated moments of disciplines, and it can, whether we think it does or not, it influences the way that we feel our relationship with God should be
[00:24:29] Speaker A: working, and especially online, because we see somebody's life and we're like, oh, well, if I was doing that, what they're doing, then my life would be easy. Like their life is right.
[00:24:38] Speaker B: Or maybe I would be more favored. Maybe I would be more loved. Maybe I would feel stronger in my faith.
It leads you to think that potentially you're doing something wrong when the reality is, I think that too often we put God in these boxes, that he's like, hey, I actually don't even. Like, I don't need the box.
I'm happy to work outside.
Do we trust God is big enough to work outside of those boxes?
So, again, the practices offer us pathways and options and things to consider. But God's not like, oh, no, gotta stick within this A B equals C situation, Right? Or, I'm not. I'm not coming.
[00:25:25] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think he's pretty cool. As long as we're open to hearing from him. We're talking to him. The converse, the relationship is open.
[00:25:33] Speaker B: He's like, you know, grace, baby.
[00:25:35] Speaker A: That's what it's for.
[00:25:36] Speaker B: Tons of grace. But I also want to say, so I opened the book with this story, and I open it with this story for a lot of reasons.
I think that, one, it's. It's what God gave me. But two, it's a reminder that even though. So I. I had gone to this church and I didn't even want to go, but my friend was so sweet and kind and, you know, she had invited me. And so I was going to be with my friend. It was super out of my comfort zone.
She invited me to come up for prayer after, and I was like, nope, I'm good.
No.
And then this pastor had prayed for me anyways.
And that was a turning point in my faith in that moment.
And I'll let people read about it. But in that moment, all I had to offer was doubt and skepticism.
And even in that, God was like, I'm still here. I got you. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:26:38] Speaker A: No, that's so beautiful. And it is a beautiful story.
[00:26:41] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:26:41] Speaker A: And.
[00:26:42] Speaker B: Yeah. So I guess I just like to remind people that if you're feeling those doubts and that skepticism, I think, keep showing up.
God meets you right there, too.
[00:26:59] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And so on the flip side, right, like, keep showing up. Keep showing up with what you've got, even if you're like, I don't even know if I believe this today. Keep showing up. And also, how do we keep our spiritual practices from becoming this obligational to do list where we're like, okay, well I showed up. I'm bringing my, my doubt and my skepticism just so I can like check it off and move on. How do we. That's attention, Monica. Like, how do we walk that line?
[00:27:25] Speaker B: Yeah. I think sometimes the reality is, is that there is a little bit of perhaps in a season it feels obligatory to show up.
I think God can use that.
Right. And like you said, there is that tension. So I do offer some of those questions in the back of the book. Like, is this feeling like I'm doing this for favor, for performance?
And what it comes down to ultimately is humility and honesty. And do you trust God enough to be honest with him about how you're feeling about those practices?
And an option to ask him, hey, can you show me something else?
Can you show me a different way to connect? Because it's not, this isn't working.
[00:28:21] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:28:22] Speaker B: And so being really honest about that and not worrying too about what your, what your friend is doing or what they might think of what your practices are, there's a lot of that that happens too.
And so I think if we can focus on being honest with God and the reminder of the how and the why, like we're doing this from a place of love, not for love.
And again, remembering those, those big, those bigger picture. So that can be helpful to remove some of that obligatory.
[00:28:57] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:28:58] Speaker B: Feelings.
[00:28:59] Speaker A: Well, I think it takes a lot of self awareness, like you said, totally humility. And so it takes a lot of self awareness to be able to ask and honestly say, like, what's actually going on within me. But also there's a bit of spiritual expectancy of God. I'm not feeling this, but I'm going to expect for you to show up anyway. Like, I love that you said, like, God, can you show me something else? Like that is spiritual expectancy of.
Even if I am struggling to believe it, like, I still expect for you to be here and that you're moving and speaking to me.
[00:29:26] Speaker B: And that's good. Yeah. And I mean, I have a chapter on the Holy Spirit too. Just the reminder that the Holy Spirit is praying for you even when you're not. Yeah.
And is there to be a helper? I mean, he's with you.
And so when we say you're not in it alone, like, that's a real promise and we can trust God enough with even if these practices aren't feeling it for you and to help you kind of move through what that looks like in practicality.
[00:30:06] Speaker A: Did you catch what Monica just said about the body boxes we put God in? I write about that exact idea and the four walls we've accidentally used to contain him in my book, the Other side of how to Follow Jesus When Easy Answers no Longer work, which is officially out in the world.
See, sometimes our beliefs change because we walk away from God. But sometimes they change because we're actually trying to follow Jesus more closely and we realize that the version of Christianity
[00:30:32] Speaker B: we've been given doesn't.
[00:30:33] Speaker A: Doesn't line up with his teachings as closely as we once thought. If you're questioning things you used to be sure of or you're trying to figure out what is still true when you start to deconstruct certain beliefs, I wrote this book for you. There's another way to be a Christian that doesn't require keeping God in a box just because it makes us more comfortable. Click the link in the show notes to get a copy or find it wherever books are sold. Alright, now back to my conversation with my.
Do you think that evangelical Christianity, and I'm painting a broad brush here, like has elevated certain spiritual practices or spiritual disciplines while kind of forgetting about others?
[00:31:11] Speaker B: Probably yes.
I think that the one I see the most. Are you asking me which one I see the most? I want to know.
[00:31:21] Speaker A: Yeah,
[00:31:24] Speaker B: the one I probably see the most is the quiet time. Uh huh.
I feel like that can be a little bit of a pain point for people who are seeing that.
Like when you consider the millennia that we've had, you know, the Christian faith.
So like they like our, they wouldn't understand what we're saying when we say quiet time.
[00:31:51] Speaker A: Right.
[00:31:51] Speaker B: Like scriptures were read communally, they were read with people. Like it would be really super odd. Like they'd be like, what are they talking about?
Why are they, why are they reading this in isolation? That's weird.
And so I think that that practice has been wildly elevated.
And something I see discouraged in certain evangelical circles is.
And I write about this in one of my chapters or two, I kind of use two chapters to discuss this idea of reading the Bible. Well, and I know you and I have talked about that before, just context maybe.
[00:32:34] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:32:34] Speaker B: Yeah. And just we see these images online, right? Like a Bible verse posted with red letter or like red circles around the words and like they're breaking it all down and it's like, okay, cool. But you just like cut out a sentence and like pasted it in there. And that's not what that means.
And so just that practice.
[00:32:57] Speaker A: Right.
[00:32:58] Speaker B: Because I think a lot of times too, and a lot of pushback that I will get is you should be able to just pick up the Bible and read it. And that's. This is a group project like it takes a village.
And so this idea that you should just be able, like that's why I include reading the Bible well as a discipline. Because it takes time, it takes effort. No, you are not going to be able to just pick it up and completely understand all of the things.
Clearly that is just not the case. So I see a lot of discouragement over particularly which, which is like saddens my heart to be honest.
I see a lot of discouragement over academia and Bible scholarship.
And that is super disheartening and frankly quite confusing to me.
I'm like, why?
Why would. It's hard, it's hard to engage and to wrestle. And I talk about that too.
But let's not like discredit biblical scholarship. We can wrestle with it, right? We can ask questions.
But again, that's part of that long obedience in the same direction.
Yeah.
[00:34:12] Speaker A: I want to know if there is a danger of spiritual disciplines actually making us worse Christians, because I think we can not not name names, but I think we can probably think of people who pray daily, have scripture memorized, attend church, but somehow have become more religious, more judgmental, more rigid instead of becoming more loving.
So what are your thoughts on that?
[00:34:38] Speaker B: Unfortunately, I too know some of the worst people that have Bible verses in their bios. Right. Like, and by worst people I mean come online and say horrible, mean, derogatory things.
[00:34:53] Speaker A: Not reflective of Jesus at all.
[00:34:55] Speaker B: Not reflective of Jesus at all.
And so this is really real. And it's a reminder that spiritual disciplines are not a formula and they're not a checklist. If you are not engaging in the disciplines in humility, I think that the risk of these becoming, creating that self righteousness and pride is so intense and so great. And I would also add, don't judge your neighbor. You do not know what their walk is looking like. You do not know. One of my biggest pet peeves is hearing the phrase, Jesus didn't hurt you, people hurt you. If somebody needs a break from going to church or finding a church home and that's the response that they get. It is discouraging and disheartening. You do not know what their walk has looked like and meet them in grace and love. And that goes for all the disciplines. Right? You don't know what their life circumstances look like. Maybe they're not, you know, participating in the same discipline you are in the way that you are.
Trust God enough that he's taking care of it.
And again, meet your neighbor with love and with grace versus judgment and hostility that they might, their faith and the way that they practice it might look different than yours.
Because otherwise I think that's a very big risk and a very big danger to create that, that pride. And we need to check it in ourselves too.
[00:36:40] Speaker A: Oh, for sure.
[00:36:41] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. Yeah.
[00:36:43] Speaker A: I think anytime we're tempted to show up with a spiritual platitude, a scripture, a nicety, whatever, instead of just like reflecting the heart and the character of Jesus to someone.
[00:36:55] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:36:56] Speaker A: Like that should be a little red flag in our own brains of maybe self righteousness.
[00:37:01] Speaker B: I always think of the Dallas Willard quote that he says, the greatest thing that God gets out of your life is not your list of accomplishments, but it's the person you become.
And so when I think of those listed accomplishments, yes, they might be accolades and such, but also God's not being like, well, how did you pray? How did you fast? How did you, you know, practice these disciplines and then make sure your neighbor did like.
No.
Yeah, no, Check your checklist. Yes. The greatest thing that God is getting out of our lives is that person you become that whole and holy person.
He's not looking. Yeah. To make sure that, oh, you've checked all your boxes. A plus for you.
[00:37:44] Speaker A: Right.
[00:37:44] Speaker B: You know, so being really careful. And again, that takes a lot of humility and self reflection and awareness.
[00:37:52] Speaker A: Well, and I think to be very clear, what we need to check in ourselves is not did we do our checklist, but is our checklist forming us to look more like Jesus? When I'm praying and praying and praying and memorizing Scripture, does my. Yeah. Does my lived life then look, do I look more like Jesus or do I look less like Jesus? With a lot of just and even like small context words.
[00:38:15] Speaker B: Small caveat to that. Right. Like something I always really encourage people to do as they're reading their Bible. Or maybe you're sitting in a, in a service is to write down the character of God. Because a lot of times I feel like we say, and I say it too, Christ likeness to be like Jesus. But remember, we've got a three in one God cheeseburger here.
[00:38:36] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:38:37] Speaker B: And so we don't want to pin them against each other.
And I just like to remind people to write it down. Is he kind? Is he Loving, is he faithful? All of these things. Because then when we're taking honest inventory, we know are we are who are we becoming?
[00:38:56] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:38:57] Speaker B: And is it this reflection? Right. So I feel like a lot of times many of us are comfortable with just saying becoming like Jesus, like New Testament Jesus. But it whole picture here.
[00:39:09] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:39:10] Speaker B: So just that's my little caveat reminder.
[00:39:14] Speaker A: Well, Jesus came to show us who God is.
[00:39:16] Speaker B: Right. Jesus is always pointing us back to the Father. And so whole scripture, don't forget the Hebrew Bible is there as well.
And there's, there's a faithful and good God in there.
[00:39:30] Speaker A: Okay, I'm going to give you another attention to explain. Right. Because I love that you just said like it's a group project.
And also like Holy Spirit can help people as they're reading the Bible. It can reveal things. Right. So explain to me what you mean by. Because American Christianity has become very individualistic. Right. Jesus died for my sins and God loves me. And I can, I can believe in God by myself. I can believe in Jesus. I get this all the time. I don't need to go to church because it's between me and God. But also then you just said it's a group project.
So help me walk again. Walk the line. What's the tension of like, how do we balance both of these things being true at the same time?
[00:40:12] Speaker B: I feel like that's a really big question and I have a lot of thoughts going on in my mind. This is the example I use in the book.
And so I really love puzzles.
And sometimes I can get so engrossed in a puzzle that I don't even know what's going on around me.
And I had this experience.
My kids actually call it like puzzle fever. Mom gets puzzle fever because I just like, I will like not make dinner. I'm like, we're door dashing. I've got, I've got a puzzle.
But there was one time it had gotten dark outside and I hadn't even noticed. And my husband came in and he was like, hey, do you want a light on? And turn the light on.
And all of a sudden I could see it so much better and I didn't know what I didn't know.
And so while we can work on some of these disciplines on our own, and I think that we should because there are things that you need to be prayerful about.
[00:41:17] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:41:18] Speaker B: One on one with God that you need to be honest about with God. One on one.
There's a lot that's happening there. But we need others to help Us see more clearly.
And so it is important to be a part of community.
And I know. I mean, I think that a community of believers, whatever that looks like for you, maybe it is. You know, I would. I would love to encourage people to find a church home that works for them. I know there's a lot of people that struggle with that, and. But I still encourage some sort of Christian community.
So we need others to help us see things a little bit more clearly, because not everybody's coming to this from the same perspective, from the same life experience, from the same understanding.
There's just so incredibly much that we. We need each other for. And then when you're thinking through it, like, think it all the way through to that so that. Right. Like, we. Our faith shouldn't be ending with us. Like, we're doing this so that. Why, again, to become a more whole and holy people so that we can reflect God's image so that.
Right, right. Like, back out into the world that he still so loves and so play that forward. You need community in order to even participate in all of that.
[00:42:49] Speaker A: And I. I mean, obviously I believe in faith podcasts. I put one out every single week. And so I love that people are here. And I let you and I both have our first books coming out. Like, this is also a great way to learn and to study and whatever. But, yeah, there is just something about, like, actual relationships with people who genuinely know you and can speak to your life of, like, hey, you might be interpreting this through the lens of your current experience, and let me help you to recognize that.
[00:43:17] Speaker B: And your specific community might need a specific correction or encouragement.
So it is important that it be localized.
And I would be a proponent of, you know, just.
I mean, this is my preference coming through a little bit.
But a smaller community.
Right. That's localized and focused in your community because, again, there's things going on in the world. Yes.
But what's happening in your community that perhaps needs attention that might look different? So I do encourage finding that space that's localized and I think about the opportunities, like, within your community to serve. So it was really important for me, when we were searching for a church home, to find a place that we could serve and provide services for our people that live right here. Yes. Like doing things out and about. That's great. There's great benefit in that, and I'm not discouraging that, but it's really great to be offering the kingdom of God in your local community as well. Yeah.
[00:44:37] Speaker A: Right. It's both. It's a Both and again, it's a both. And we serve the people in our community and we get to be known by the people who actually are living similar lives to ours in the place that we're doing it.
Well, Monica, last question for you.
[00:44:51] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:44:52] Speaker A: Because the podcast is called Becoming Church, how can the people listening fashion their faith to become the church of the people around them?
[00:45:02] Speaker B: I mean, I think we've touched on this a little bit, right? Just this idea that God wants more for your life than this one time moment of conversion.
[00:45:13] Speaker A: Oh, that's so good.
[00:45:14] Speaker B: And it's not an easy road. We've, we've said it a couple of times now. Long obedience in the same direction. But participating in these disciplines I think reminds us that we are fully embodied beings.
Right. Head, heart, soul, mind. And then. Right, we're following that so that all the way through so that we can better bear his image and Christ likeness out into the world that he so loves. So that becoming church peace is looking like, how am I transforming? How am I fashioning my own heart to Christ so that I can then reflect his image back out into the world? Because God did not abandon the world. He's not like, nope, you're on your own. Just wait till I like scoop you up in the Rapture, you know, he's like, no, no, this is your. And I think it's nt Wright that talks about it as an actual vocation. This is your vocation, becoming church to reflect God's good image in which you are made back out into the world that he so loves.
[00:46:19] Speaker A: I love it. So good. Well thank you a friend.
Guys, go get Fashion by Faith by Monica Richie, any place that you want to direct them to.
[00:46:30] Speaker B: Otherwise, wherever books are sold, I've got it on my website. It's at Baker Books. Of course it's on Amazon.
So you know all the places,
[00:46:41] Speaker A: whatever fashion you wear to church or your community group or in your own house while you're connecting with God, I'm praying that your faith is fashioned by your obedience and commitment to learning about who he is and who he created you to be.
Until next time, thanks so much for listening and keep becoming the church, the people around you.
