Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: You know, those heavy issues that you try to avoid in conversations unless you know everyone in the room agrees with you. Maybe they're topics that you physically feel in your gut or your breath when they come up unexpectedly. I want you to take a deep breath and decide right now that you're going to commit to this entire episode, especially if it was sent to you by someone you care about, because we're talking about all of those things today.
I'm Kristen Mockler Young, and this is Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. Each week, we explore conversations around faith, culture, and the evolving church.
My guest is someone that I'm usually laughing at when I'm scrolling because her background in Christian broadcasting has set her up beautifully to create poignant sketches on social media.
You may not recognize her without her blonde wig, but April Ajoy is here to share openly about her experiences growing up in and eventually leaving Christian nationalism.
April, welcome to the Becoming Church podcast.
[00:01:12] Speaker B: Hi. Thanks for having me.
[00:01:14] Speaker A: So excited to have you here. We've been talking about this for a while. And listen, I have gone through this book. Unfortunately, I'm only about halfway through because I keep having to stop to underline and, like, make all these notes, which. Aww. It's a good sign, really.
[00:01:30] Speaker B: I love that, though.
[00:01:32] Speaker A: So. Yes, well, we'll get there. And I also am obsessed with the COVID Like the fact that you pick sequins.
Love it.
[00:01:40] Speaker B: Yeah, just a little. A little sparkle to go with the Christian nationalism.
[00:01:45] Speaker A: Wait, sparkle is not a Christian nationalism like thing, right?
[00:01:50] Speaker B: No, I don't think so. I don't think there's much sparkle happening there.
[00:01:53] Speaker A: Okay, I don't think so either. I was gonna panic for a second. I was like, no, no, no.
[00:01:57] Speaker B: It's not a thing that I'm aware of. It's just an artistic piece that was
[00:02:01] Speaker A: in the back half of the book. I didn't get to it yet.
[00:02:03] Speaker B: Yeah,
[00:02:06] Speaker A: well, I think that probably most of my listeners follow you or know who you are, but we're gonna do a quick little Q and A just to kind of ease in. And so it might be a little tongue in cheek, but I thought it would be fun. So what is your favorite or most played youth group game growing up?
[00:02:25] Speaker B: You know, I was thinking about this and I think the one, the one that I just keep remembering the most is the baby food, where you have to guess what flavor the baby food is. Like they blindfold you and feed you baby food and to guess what the contents are.
Those were fun to watch.
[00:02:46] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:02:46] Speaker B: Not to participate in as much, but
[00:02:49] Speaker A: they were always making us eat weird things.
[00:02:51] Speaker B: Yeah, lots of eating. Of disgusting things, for sure.
[00:02:56] Speaker A: I don't know what the spiritual discipline they were trying to teach there was
[00:02:58] Speaker B: exactly, but I know it's like a humiliation.
[00:03:02] Speaker A: Maybe so.
[00:03:03] Speaker B: I don't know.
[00:03:04] Speaker A: Maybe so. All right. What was a Christian cassette or CD that you just, like, wore out playing?
[00:03:11] Speaker B: I mean, probably anything from DC Talk or Carmen.
Like, Carmen. Early on, I was a big Carmen girl. Was one of my first concerts that I went to. Also, Point of Grace.
I think I had a Point of Grace on cassette before I had any CDs.
[00:03:28] Speaker A: So, yes, I know you mentioned singing your own song on some stages growing up, but Point of Grace was one of those that. Remember the cassettes that you could buy, and it was just the backing track.
And so did you guys do this at church? So, like, the sound person would put it in the booth and it would play all the music through a cassette, and then you would sing your solo or your duet or whatever?
[00:03:49] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. I did a lot of my singing because my dad would travel and me and my mom and my brothers would sing, and we always had those background tracks that we would then sing to.
[00:03:59] Speaker A: And it was so normal then.
[00:04:00] Speaker B: Yeah, it was just what you did. Yeah, so we did.
All right.
[00:04:04] Speaker A: What is the weirdest thing that you ever did related to rapture culture?
[00:04:10] Speaker B: You know, I mean, this was not, like, a public thing, but I probably would pray and ask God to delay the rapture so that I could have sex.
[00:04:22] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:04:23] Speaker B: Not die a virgin, but specifically, I was saving myself, so I had to be married.
[00:04:27] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:04:28] Speaker B: So I was like, God, just wait till, like, the day after my wedding night, if you can. But then, like, a little bit of time would go by, and then I would feel guilty for asking that of God. I was like, how selfish of me. So then I would ask God's forgiveness for even praying such a prayer.
[00:04:44] Speaker A: Yeah, that is such a common thing, April, that I'm like. I think the first time I said that out loud to somebody, you know, like, in a small group.
[00:04:52] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:04:52] Speaker A: And I got like a. Yeah, me too. I went, hold on. Like, it was a universal prayer that all of us. All of us little good girls were praying.
[00:05:00] Speaker B: Oh, I know. Well. And then also there were several times I thought I was actually left behind.
So that was fun. Which you never admitted. I didn't admit that until maybe 10 years ago, like, in a post. I was just like, has anyone else Ever thought that they were left behind, too, or just me? And then everyone was like, yes. Oh, my gosh. I thought I was the only one. And then there were a few people that were like, no, because I had the assurance of salvation.
[00:05:24] Speaker A: Oh, my gosh.
[00:05:25] Speaker B: Okay, whatever.
[00:05:28] Speaker A: I don't know that I had that moment, but it's not because I was so sure, because I also went up for every altar call that was ever presented to me. I think it was just that I was never left alone. Like, my parents just never let me be alone for me to even have that opportunity.
[00:05:42] Speaker B: Yeah. And that. And that's fair. Yeah. Honestly, good for you for not enduring that. It was pretty. Pretty traumatizing.
[00:05:48] Speaker A: You wrote about a particular story in your book. And I just. I was. As I was reading it, I was like, oh, my gosh. I just want to go back and, like, give little April a hug. Because I could not. Like, I could see it fully playing out and, like, why you would believe it. And.
[00:06:01] Speaker B: Yeah, man, fun times.
[00:06:04] Speaker A: Wild. Well, you mentioned in your book that, you know, the idea of, like, when we get to heaven, we're going to watch somebody's life or we're going to watch our lives all played out, you know, on video.
So let's just say. Let's just say that that's really going to happen. Whose home life, like, movies, do you actually want to see when you get up there?
[00:06:22] Speaker B: Oh,
[00:06:25] Speaker A: is there anybody? Or is that just, like, the weirdest voyeurism question ever?
[00:06:28] Speaker B: I don't know. I've literally. Yeah, I've never thought about that. I don't.
I don't know if there's someone that I would want to see, because if it's, like, people that I really like, I know it would make me like them less.
And then if it's people that are already awful, it's probably just going to be even worse. So maybe ignorance is bliss on that one.
[00:06:48] Speaker A: You're probably right.
All right, last little quick fire question for you. Which veggietale would for sure get left behind in the rapture?
[00:06:55] Speaker B: I think the asparagus. I think he's totally, like, too pious for his own good.
[00:07:01] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:07:04] Speaker B: Like, not the kid Asparagus. The one with the little Archibald.
[00:07:08] Speaker A: Why do I know his name?
[00:07:09] Speaker B: I'm pretty sure that's it.
What do you think?
[00:07:13] Speaker A: In the same vein, I was like, I actually think it might be Bob because he's always a little prideful, like, with Larry, like, you should know this. And, like, duh.
[00:07:21] Speaker B: Come on.
[00:07:22] Speaker A: Like, there's. He lacks, like, Grace and nuance.
[00:07:24] Speaker B: So yeah, Larry seems more down to earth and more like real. Like, yeah, I struggle with that. So what?
[00:07:30] Speaker A: Bob's like, yeah, it's always that one. That's always that one that's super.
[00:07:35] Speaker B: Sure. Mm.
[00:07:38] Speaker A: Well, I do have Star Spangled Jesus right here again. And I'm not gonna talk about it and how much I loved it the whole time, I promise. But there were so many things that I was showing people on Instagram where I just like underlined and I wrote notes and I was like, oh my gosh, me too. And at first it's like, oh, funny. Haha, me too. And then I went, oh no. Like, oh no, this is a book about Christian nationalism. And I keep saying, me too.
And so we will definitely dig into that. But what's been the response that you've gotten from people now that it's been out for like a year?
[00:08:11] Speaker B: Yeah, I think overall it's been really positive. And I've heard from people that, you know, have gone to church for decades and are finally starting to notice Christian nationalism, like in their own upbringing or you know, at the churches that they currently go to, like they're learning how to spot it in the wild and how it can be so sneaky. Also, I've heard from people that don't, didn't grow up in this world at all that feel like they have a better understanding of how people can get sucked up into this. Because I, I do think if you don't grow up in it and have, you know, the understanding of how somebody could get sucked up in it, it's really easy to be like, oh my God, these people are just idiots or they're just hateful.
And there, there's some of that. But you know, a lot of, a lot of people that get in, in this movement actually do it for good reasons and you know, well meaning intentions, which does not negate any harm. But I think once we understand where people are coming from, even if we vehemently disagree, it can be easier to find common ground and hopefully, you know, help rescue some people.
[00:09:20] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:09:20] Speaker B: Out of that.
[00:09:21] Speaker A: I'm glad you said that. And that truly is the exact reason that I wanted to have you on to have this conversation. Because I want people to help, to be able to notice the signs so that they can see what's happening. And let me also say very clearly, like, just because, for the people that are listening, just because you notice certain things, similarities, you know, themes, whatever, it does not mean like, oh my gosh, I was raised in Christian nationalism. And I did not realize it. Like, I don't think that I was. I just think that so much of the tenants which we're going to talk about and the teachings like, came from maybe the same place.
And then some of them went a little this way and some went a little bit that way. And so there can be a lot of commonalities without saying, okay, like, every evangelical was raised as a Christian nationalist.
[00:10:07] Speaker B: Well, I think that's part of the tricky thing in identifying Christian nationalism, because I don't.
Now, there are some people today that openly wear the Christian nationalist label proudly, but for the most part, no one comes out. And just like, I'm a Christian nationalist, they say, I'm a Christian. They've just been taught that what it means to be a Christian is very political.
And it's this kind of conflation of your theology with your political identity.
So you don't really see where one begins and the other ends. They just kind of mesh together.
So that's why a lot of people who would have never said I was a Christian nationalist, and when I was in it, I didn't call myself a Christian nationalist. I thought I was just being a good Christian. Love God, love people vote Republican because Republicans were the Christian party. Right. So that's where it gets, that's where it gets tricky because a lot of people like, no, I'm just being a good Christian. I'm just doing what my pastor says and what I believe the Bible says. And then you wake up one day like I did and realize, oh, shoot, I was actually a Christian nationalist the whole time. Fun, fun, fun, fun.
[00:11:11] Speaker A: But it's a spectrum. Don't you think, of, like, yes, varying levels?
[00:11:14] Speaker B: There is definitely a spectrum. And I do think, like, I, I think where people get tricky is they think, oh, just, just because I'm a conservative, you're going to call me a Christian nationalist. Which is not true because there, there is a difference between saying, you know, I'm not going to do this because it goes against my, my beliefs versus you can't do that because it goes against my beliefs. And that, that kind of where, that's the distinction between just being a conservative versus being a Christian nationalist. If you are okay with diff. Deferring thoughts in public office.
I don't think you're a Christian nationalist. If you think everybody needs in the government needs to be Christian and specifically my brand of Christianity and we need to legislate our version of morality that is Christian nationalism. Yeah.
[00:12:00] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay, well, let's get into it. Because that's where I want to start with.
And truly, I think that this is just God's timing, right? All the things. But, like, I just think your book came out at the perfect time. And so people that are listening, I just encourage y' all to get it and to read it, even if you think it doesn't apply to you. Like April said, it just will help you to see why maybe other people that you care about are acting the way that they are. So you open the book with the three tenets of Christian nationalism. And so I want you to walk us through the three of them, kind of showing, like, what's the difference between, you know, this being, like, a good character trait versus when we cross the line? So I know the first one is, you know, America being the best. So what's the difference between, like, patriotism versus nationalism?
[00:12:48] Speaker B: Yeah, so I think patriotism is wanting the best for all of your fellow countrymen, like equality, but also you kind of just. You still want the best for other countries, too. Like, you're not. You're not out there being like, we need to excel in our country to the detriment of others. It's just wanting to be the best, indifferent or still just wanting the best for our neighbors as well. But patriotism is like, yay, let's cheer on USA and at the Olympics. I want the best. Like, I love my country, so I want the best for the most. Like, the most rights for the most people.
Nationalism is America First. America needs to be winning regardless of how we impact our global neighbors.
You know, it's.
Which is interesting because America first is kind of what Donald Trump ran on and is not doing that. So.
But.
So, yeah, so. But American exceptionalism goes beyond just the present.
It's also this belief that America was founded as a Christian nation because of God supernaturally blessing America. So it's kind of like this narcissistic idea of, like, America's kind of God's chosen, either tied with or right behind Israel, which is a whole other topic.
And so you. And on. And this kind of plays into the third tenet that we'll get to in a second. But it's this idea that God supernaturally blessed America because we were founded as a Christian nation, which isn't true. If you actually go back and look at all of our early documents, there's a clear separation of church and state, but it's that God blessed us because we were Christian.
It ignores the plight of indigenous people and the genocide we committed there. It ignores the plight of slavery and how we were very, you know, culpable in that it ignores a lot of really, actually terrible things that America did. Did.
[00:14:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:49] Speaker B: In the name of American exceptionalism. Because if you believe that America was founded as a Christian nation, that God supernaturally blessed America, you have to rewrite the bad parts of American history in order to still believe that God is good, because God could not have had his hand in it. And also sanction, you know, sanctioned slavery and.
[00:15:11] Speaker A: Right.
[00:15:11] Speaker B: You know, a. A million other things. So there's this. It has to be true in order to keep your theology and that God is good.
That's that, like, interconnectivity that I mentioned earlier.
[00:15:23] Speaker A: Well, and there's a lot of talk about revisionist history happening right now, but it's like, no. That's what was happening. At least the way that I was taught about things is. It's like, no. Well, there's. Because there's always an answer, Right. For why God allowed or didn't allow or all of these different things. And even just the versions of the stories that we were told, you know, when it comes to, you know, even the emancipation of slaves, like, I didn't know about Juneteenth. I just was like, okay. Abraham Lincoln, like.
[00:15:50] Speaker B: Right.
[00:15:50] Speaker A: Or even people could vote. Yay. Everybody could vote. No. Like, first the white men could vote, and then, you know, just all of these things, I think, still play into the same idea. And it also ignores America first, ignores the fact that, like.
But which Americans.
[00:16:07] Speaker B: Right.
[00:16:08] Speaker A: Even in our own country, America first doesn't actually work.
[00:16:12] Speaker B: No, no, it doesn't. It's definitely a.
Yeah. I mean, white supremacy and racism and xenophobia, like, it all.
It's all in there. Yeah. Patriarchy, even. Yeah.
[00:16:26] Speaker A: And you think all of that comes out of this? Or you think it all just was kind of, like, bubbled up in the same pot?
[00:16:32] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think. I think it was rooted in it.
[00:16:35] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:16:36] Speaker B: So that by the time, you know, we're all up here now. So you don't see the dirty roots as much because it's really deep in there. And I do think once people start deconstructing, it's. It starts happening really fast because once you see it, you can't unsee it.
[00:16:52] Speaker A: Right. Right.
[00:16:54] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:55] Speaker A: All right, so then we get to that second tenet of Christian basically equaling evangelical. So, again, like, what's the difference between identifying with maybe a denomination or even the label of Christianity versus the danger of making that equation?
[00:17:08] Speaker B: Yeah. So that's mainly just the idea that American Christianity Here is for the most part white evangelical. That's the majority of the people in Congress that have that label, especially on the Republican side. And it's, it's the majority of the churches that we see everywhere, especially like your huge mega churches, most of them are evangelical. So when they're talking about we need to put God back in, in our schools, we need to put God back in the government, we need America to turn back to God to be a Christian nation, they mean an evangelical Protestant Christian nation. Now there are some Catholics that have joined this move, especially more trad Catholics, which will be really interesting if they actually get what they want, because they're not going to get along.
There was a lot of anti Catholicism rhetoric in the way that I was raised and you see it a lot today too.
But yeah, it's, it's just this narrow fundamentalist interpretation of scripture that is very conservative politically.
It's one interpretation like there's over 45, 000 Christian denominations worldwide.
But here we think, oh, Christian nation has to be the way we interpret it and our idea of morality. So it's just this very narrow idea of what Christianity is. Because when people are saying we want to have a Christian nation, we were founding as a Christian nation, they're not talking about our version of Christianity. You know, they're not talking about a more inclusive right, you know, love your neighbor regardless of who they are type of Christianity. It's, it's very much about power and you know, enforcing an oppressive ideology in the name of God.
[00:18:56] Speaker A: Yeah, well, it's like you said earlier, it's that, that very one specific, I'm right, we're right. And so therefore everyone else is wrong.
And that's the issue. That's where I think the antidote really is like that asking, being able to ask ourselves that question, what if I'm wrong? Or what if other people could also be right? What if, what if actually this thing that we fight about all the time doesn't even matter?
[00:19:18] Speaker B: Right.
[00:19:19] Speaker A: We're doing more damage to the public witness of the church because we cannot seem to focus on the thing that matters most instead of fighting over the things that don't matter that much. They matter to us.
[00:19:31] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:19:31] Speaker A: They don't matter to the kingdom.
[00:19:33] Speaker B: Well, and that's another, I think, kind of sign of people that get. Well, really of any high control group. But it's a lack of curiosity and a lack of nuance. It's a very black and white ideology. This is always wrong, this is always right. There's no room for any open mind, especially like I grew up, my dad would say often from the pulpit, which I full heartedly, like, wholeheartedly agreed with, was that, you know, people accuse us of being bigots and being narrow minded, but we can afford to be narrow minded because we're right.
There was just like no chance that we were wrong. And so when you come, like, there's so, there's so much in the world that I don't know. And like, the more I learn, the more I realize I don't know anything.
[00:20:13] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:20:14] Speaker B: You know, which is a very humbling and kind of scary place to be, but it's also real. And so I do think in some ways ignorance is bliss, which is a piece of what Christian nationalists hold on to. They're like, no, I'm not going to go and meet a trans person and talk to them and see what their life is like because that might mess up my beliefs and my beliefs are more important.
[00:20:36] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Oh, it's for sure easier to look away from things, to stay ignorant, like you said, to not have to face things in the eye. It's, it's, of course it's easier to like live in our little bubble where we, we know everything. We know what the Bible says and everything's clear and we're certain about all of it.
[00:20:53] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:20:54] Speaker A: But that's not the call. That's not what we're supposed to do.
[00:20:58] Speaker B: Absolutely. And then the final, which kind of ties in to the first one is that morality should be mandated. And obviously it's a very, it's what our idea of morality is or their idea, which is again, a narrow interpretation, very fundamentalist, very legalistic. Again, no room for nuance. Like even just looking at all the abortion bans that we're seeing nationwide, like, that's not taken into account.
Women who desperately want their children and have miscarriages and now can't get the care that they need or they have an ectopic pregnancy or a million other things that can go wrong during pregnancy that it takes, it doesn't take those into account at all.
Or just like the things that go into unwanted pregnancies.
Like, they're not attacking, they're not trying to solve those issues. They're trying to get rid of a symptom of a problem without actually addressing the problem.
And I do think it ties into the first one about American exceptionalism, because I like after 9, 11 or Hurricane Katrina or anytime anything bad happens to America, there's this push that you see from a lot of these evangelical pastors like, after 9 11, Jerry Falwell went on the 700 Club and said that 911 happened because of abortionists and the gays and the feminists and the aclu.
And it's. It's this idea of, like, oh, God is allowing bad things to happen or is doing it to judge us because we've allowed sin into our life. And again, it's their idea of what sin is.
And no notice, it's never the sin of racism or the sin of, you know, demonizing immigrants. It's the sin of feminists.
[00:22:44] Speaker A: It's never a sin that they themselves have to wrestle with.
[00:22:47] Speaker B: Right, exactly.
[00:22:49] Speaker A: That these people would.
[00:22:50] Speaker B: Yeah. And then after Hurricane Katrina, John Hagee, who's a pastor in Texas, said it was because New Orleans had just had a pride parade and that God was judging him for that. So the. The answer in their minds, if you believe that God is now judging us because we've allowed, quote, unquote, unrighteousness or sin into our life or into our country, then the antidote to that is to legislate those things out of existence. So you make gay, gay marriage illegal. You make trans people illegal. You.
[00:23:20] Speaker A: You.
[00:23:20] Speaker B: Like, there's. There's literally an active push right now to take away a woman's right to vote because people think the women's suffrage was part of the downfall of society.
And so that's where that comes into play. Like, okay, well, maybe we can't stop people from being gay, but we can stop them from acting out on it. And then if they're not doing their sin, maybe they'll become Christian eventually.
And then maybe God will also bless us again. So it's kind of like this selfish.
I, like, I don't know the circle of selfishness, because it's not about, say, I mean, it is about saving them. Like, we were like, we need to save them from their own sin. They don't know any better. But also, I want to live in a country that God is blessing, and these people are taking it away from me.
[00:24:05] Speaker A: Yeah, well, yeah, it's the idea of, like, okay, well, like you said, if they're not going to choose it for themselves, then we'll just take away their choice.
[00:24:11] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:24:13] Speaker A: Which I'm pretty sure that's not how faith works to begin with.
[00:24:17] Speaker B: I mean, God is pretty much like, pro choice. He doesn't force himself on us. Yeah.
[00:24:22] Speaker A: You know, I was going to say in pretty much every aspect of, like, hey, you get to choose. You get to choose to be in relationship with me. You get to choose to believe in me. You get to choose to try to live the way of Jesus. But then here we are. The most quote unquote Christian people are like, nope, no choices for anyone because you cannot be trusted to, to do what we want you to do.
[00:24:40] Speaker B: Yeah, okay.
Yeah.
[00:24:43] Speaker A: And part of me wants to go, how can people believe this? Right. Like some of the things that the different pastors or people say, part of me is like, that's so insane that how do people actually sit there and listen and go like, yeah, of course. But I know that it's because the tactics that they use are so convincing. And like you mentioned at the top, I do much believe that a lot of the people who find themselves in this kind of belief system really have good intentions. They really do want to do right by God or have other people be saved or whatever.
But these tactics then, like just go off course a little bit. And so you mentioned a whole bunch of them in your book. You've got conspiracy theories, end times manipulation, the afterlife, fear mongering, the demonization of other people.
What. Which are a few that you really see at play, like being used effectively on people today.
[00:25:34] Speaker B: Yeah, I think, well, they're all effective or they want to be doing it. And I want to be clear too. I don't know. I don't know that peop. It's like a conscious thing. I think there's people at the top that are like, oh, we need to do these things to keep people in. This is going to really work. But I think your average churchgoer, evangelical, that is on the Christian nationalist spectrum somewhere, they're not going like, oh, we need to play the persecution card right now. They're just doing that because that's how they've always done it. It's, it's what they, they see. And I do think too part of like you're siloed when you're in this world. You know, you go to church sometimes multiple times a week. You only ever watch Fox News. You might listen to talk radio. You're literally encouraged to not watch secular media. You're encouraged to not go to public college.
If you're young, like you're, you're trained to learn how to not learn new things.
[00:26:30] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:26:31] Speaker B: That go against your beliefs. So that's part of it. So it's easier to buy into these tactics when you're already self, you know, dictating what your, what your intake is. Yeah, well.
[00:26:44] Speaker A: And you've been told this is what's right. And this is right.
[00:26:47] Speaker B: Good.
[00:26:48] Speaker A: So you just Keep following that one narrow path.
[00:26:51] Speaker B: Right. And you're told too, that Satan's going to do everything he can to get you to question.
Like, questions are like the worst thing because it can lead to doubts and then lead you to be an atheist. Then one day you wake up and you go to hell.
So I do think in that regard the hell piece, like the fear of eternal conscious torment and being burned alive for eternity is a huge piece of, to keep people that are already in, in, you know, And I do think, like, that's one of the hardest things for people to, to deconstruct because I think once you let go of the belief in an eternal fire hell, everything else is easy.
[00:27:32] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:27:33] Speaker B: Because it's that thing that keeps you believing all these other things because you're terrified. Like, well, I don't want to burn in hell. That's like the worst thing ever. So that one is super effective to keep people in.
There's also, I think, what, I think one of the more effective ones it all, it keeps people in, but it also keeps opponents, for lack of a better term, at bay is the persecution card. Because. And you see it today too, like, I talk about Christian nationalism a lot, and one of the biggest pushbacks I get is like, oh, you just hate God. You're attacking Christianity as a whole. You hate Christianity despite the fact that I am a Christian.
[00:28:12] Speaker A: Right.
[00:28:13] Speaker B: They, they, they view any attack on things that are actually harmful and they put a blanket on it, like, oh, well, you just don't like me because I'm standing up for my faith.
It doesn't like, even though they're being an absolute bigot and taking rights away from people, they twist it and it's like, oh, it's just because I love Jesus, you know, and that works, that kills every time. Because there is nothing that rallies a church more than a good persecution story. Because then they feel like they're under attack. They feel like, oh, we're in a war. And, and you've been t your entire life. This is war. It's a war of good and evil, and you're either on the side of God and good or evil and the devil and which one is it? And if you're not actively fighting for good, Satan is using you.
[00:28:56] Speaker A: Right. So again, is their specific definition of what good is.
[00:29:02] Speaker B: Right, Exactly.
[00:29:03] Speaker A: You would say we're also doing the same, but they would not call what we call good. They would not call good.
[00:29:08] Speaker B: Right, right. And it's interesting how their idea of good happens to line up with all Republican policies. Yes.
[00:29:16] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, so.
[00:29:17] Speaker B: Or Donald Trump. Yeah. Which honestly I think is why a lot of people started deconstructing. Because I don't, I don't know how you can justify as a Christian defending that man all the time.
[00:29:29] Speaker A: That is, I think the cognitive dissonance for a lot of people is they're just, they have always thought, okay, I have to vote this way or feel this way about, you know, these specific issues.
But then when they're, I truly think that it's people that are more probably like our age grew up in the 80s and the 90s, who for the first time finally are reading scripture for themselves and going like, wait a minute, this is not what I thought that meant, or this is not what I've always been taught that meant.
[00:29:57] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:29:58] Speaker A: And so that's where it's like we're finally taking our childhood faith, letting it grow up a little bit and then realizing, oh, it's a lot more complicated and nuance than we thought that it was or were even told that it, that it could be.
[00:30:13] Speaker B: Right. And that goes beyond even just like political, like how you use theology in the political realm, but even just like the Rapture, I thought for sure the Rapture was just in the Bible.
It's not right. You know, it's like, what, how is
[00:30:30] Speaker A: that we read the Left behind books as if they were like other non canonical scriptural texts.
[00:30:35] Speaker B: Right, Right. So there's like so many things and, and I think too, when you are, when you grow up and you're taught the Bible is inerrant, it's infallible, there are no errors, no mistakes in it, and then you finally read it objectively for the first, like the whole thing for the first time and you notice, oh, there's actually some inconsistencies in here.
And I think if you, if you grow up believing, oh, the Bible is literal, you have to take it literally and it has no mistakes, and then you realize, oh, it actually does that, that is, that causes a crisis of faith right there. When there's actually a much, in my opinion, a much better way to interpret scripture, which is to like, it's like stories. It's people understanding God as they, you know, as they were growing as a human race, as, as they had experiences. It's not like God the way that like so many evangelical pastors talk about it. It's like God sent the book down from heaven as, as is. And if you, there's people that literally believe that. Right. There's people that believe the entire book is the words of Jesus, which is just like, objectively not true.
[00:31:46] Speaker A: So there's genres in there. Like, you don't read every genre of writing the same way. So yeah, there's so much to the scripture. And that was a huge one for me. April. Honestly, that was one of my biggest, like, you know, deconstruction reconstruction was try seeing the Bible in a new way and realizing, oh, I have built my faith on this book as opposed to the person that we're supposed to learn about inside of this book where this book did not actually exist for early Christians. And so, like, that in and of itself should make us go, well, wait a minute.
I think we've got our priorities mixed up here. The Bible is important, but not as important as Jesus. Like, Right. They're not on the same playing field.
[00:32:27] Speaker B: Well, yeah, and I think there's this misconception too that like, oh, progressive Christians are leading people astray and leading people to hell. But I really think the way that they teach the Bible is unsustainable because one, like people are always going to start reading it for themselves and realizing this doesn't match the, what we're doing here. And I think the way that they teach it, like, if they teach, oh, the Bible is literal and if you don't believe this, you can't be a Christian. That causes more atheists, in my opinion, than being like, no, it's, it's a book. You can learn a lot from it. It could be, it's, it can be inspired by God, but it doesn't have to be like the literal, like words of heaven because it has multiple biblical worldviews.
[00:33:10] Speaker A: Right.
[00:33:10] Speaker B: Like there's not one singular worldview within the text. You have the Old Testament and Hebrew Bible that says an eye for an eye.
[00:33:17] Speaker A: Right.
[00:33:17] Speaker B: And then you have the words of Jesus that says, love your neighbor, love your enemy, turn the other cheek. Those two things are conflicting teachings.
[00:33:27] Speaker A: Right. Well, that's what we have to remember too. And we're getting into a whole, like, Bible thing, but it's like old covenant, New covenant. Yeah, covenant with the Israelites for then Jesus for everybody. Like there. It's not two different books, but it's very, it's kind of two very different things.
[00:33:43] Speaker B: Right. Well, and I think too, everybody picked cherry picks.
Of course, some people just admit it, you know, like there. Because there are scripture. I admit there are some scriptures in the Bible that I have issues with, especially for people that are trying to teach us to take it literally, like slaves, obey your masters. I disagree with that. I don't Believe there should be slaves.
[00:34:02] Speaker A: Right.
[00:34:03] Speaker B: They'll say when it comes to, like, eating shellfish or wearing mixed fabrics, they'll be like, well, we're under the New Covenant. But suddenly when it's Pride Month, Right. The Old Covenant covenant comes back and they're like, oh, actually, well, Leviticus or Deuteronomy. I'm like, oh, I thought we didn't follow that anymore. And then they bring up a whole, oh, it's prescriptive versus descriptive. Like, y' all literally made that up. That the Bible does not make those distinctions whatsoever. Yeah.
[00:34:27] Speaker A: So, yeah.
[00:34:28] Speaker B: Anyone? That's my thing. Everybody cherry picks. You can either use the Bible to liberate or you can use the Bible to oppress.
[00:34:34] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:34:34] Speaker B: And I just choose to use it to liberate.
[00:34:37] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. What's the lens you want to read it through? Because you're going to find whatever you want to find on those pages.
Yeah. What are you trying to find?
[00:34:43] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:34:45] Speaker A: Is there a particular phrase that, you know, like you said, people just kind of grow up in this. Right. Without realizing it. Do you think there's a particular phrase that people have probably just accepted as religious language but never stop to think, like, oh, how formative it actually was?
[00:35:02] Speaker B: I think love the sinner, hate the sin is like, it sounds fine. It's. It. It can even sound loving the way that it's taught in these churches, but it's actually really hateful because, one. It's only ever used for the most part, to condemn queer people.
[00:35:19] Speaker A: Yes, that's.
[00:35:21] Speaker B: Yes, yes, exactly. And. And I've seen. And I've made that point before, and someone's like, no, I've used it for people that are addicts. I'm like, okay, but now you're equating queer people with addicts, which is also not the same. Yeah, that's. That's not the vibe.
Because I do think that that kind of just reinforces this idea of like, oh, being tough to someone or being mean to someone. Even if you disagree with their quote, unquote, sin is actually a form of love.
So you have people that are bullying queer people, that are taking away their rights, that are not allowing them to have, like, to have full, you know, autonomy in churches because they deem them sinful.
[00:36:05] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:36:06] Speaker B: But in reality, what they're doing is just actively causing harm and bullying that person. But they. They've convinced themselves that it's love.
[00:36:14] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:36:14] Speaker B: And I. I think the way that they view God in a way kind of reinforces that, because in order to believe that God's going to send everybody to hell for eternity unless you just happen to believe the right things, regardless of how good of a person you actually are, then it's easy to also treat other people that you deem less than, like trash.
[00:36:38] Speaker A: Right?
Right. Well, it is a very much a reflection of. Yeah. Who we think God is. And I for sure, for decades thought God was just a disciplinarian.
God was just waiting. And I was a good kid. I was a goody two shoes. I didn't smoke, I didn't drink, I didn't have sex till I got married. Like, all the things. Right.
And I still was constantly like, okay, God is just watching me in heaven, just waiting for me to mess up, waiting for me to sin, waiting for me to do something wrong so that I can be punished because of how sinful and bad I am. Like, oh yeah. That is the perspective I think a lot of people have of God.
And if that's part of it, that's like a fraction of who God actually is.
[00:37:20] Speaker B: Right. And I think it kind of is tied into even like Jesus says, love your neighbor as yourself. I think a lot of people that are in this world, they don't love themselves because they've been conditioned to believe that we are disgusting.
[00:37:31] Speaker A: Right.
[00:37:32] Speaker B: Like we were born evil.
[00:37:34] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:37:34] Speaker B: Our own instincts can't be trusted. Like, you know, I, they use that verse, like, even our righteousness is a filthy rag to God. So like, you're even taught, like you on your best day is still disgusting.
[00:37:46] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:37:46] Speaker B: To God. And if you believe that about yourself, how much worse are you going to think about queer people that you believe are abominations because of an interpretation that your pastor.
[00:37:57] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:37:57] Speaker B: Said.
[00:37:58] Speaker A: Yeah.
I think for a lot of people that could be their turning point of like, hey, figure out who you think God actually is. Like, open your Bible for yourself and read like the heart and the nature and the character of God. And then hopefully that then, you know, leads them down a path of seeing some other things differently too.
[00:38:17] Speaker B: Yeah. I do really wish that anyone who's unaffirming in the church world because I do think there are good people that use the phrase love the sinner, hate the sin. Like they mean well. They, they genuinely believe that they're being loving because that's what they're taught.
I, I've never realized how much I didn't love people before until I became affirming. Until you can actually see someone's humanity and get to know them and love them and learn from them without this ulterior motive that you have to save them or that you might be enabling their sin if you're just nice to them. That is, I. I think that is actually freedom in Christ. Yeah. To just get to know God, like my fellow creation, like fellow image bearers, without judgment, without coming in. Like I'm better than them. Like, yeah. That is love that I never knew when I was in that dogmatic world.
[00:39:14] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, I think, too, there's.
We can let go of the weight of trying to need to save people. That's what it was for me when I started my whole, like, affirming, figuring out.
What do you mean? Like, this isn't a sin and this. They're not choosing it. And, you know, I mean, that will, like, blow your brain up and it. As it should, and it needs to sometimes.
But that was it for me. Cause I was like, it's not my job to save people. Was one of my starting points where even when I did think that it was a sin and it was something wrong and, like, then that's. That's in God's hands.
And I've, you know, evolved even since then. But I think people, too, that like, to use that phrase of, you know, hate the sin, love the sinner, also forget that when you do call people up in quote unquote, like, brotherly love, it's in the context of relationship.
And so to your point, if you're unwilling to get to know people, like, shouting at them with signs at a pride parade.
[00:40:08] Speaker B: Right.
[00:40:09] Speaker A: Is not actually what that means anyway. That's not calling people up in love. You don't know those people. There's not relationship there. That's never what's been modeled in Scripture.
[00:40:17] Speaker B: No. Yeah. And the Bible never tells us to hate other people's sin either. It's very much like, get the plank out of your own eye situation. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:40:28] Speaker A: Well, we've talked about a lot of these issues, you know, and the big ones, Right. The big ones really have a hold on people. And I'm talking, you know, abortion, the mere existence of LGBTQ people, guns, like, all of these things are really strong ties for Christian nationalism.
So, April, my question to you is, like, how do we make change for these things that matter when we're operating or we seem to be operating in this very, like, binary. You know, it's right or it's wrong. Black and white approach where there's not any nuance. How can we still, like, fight for these issues and make change there?
[00:41:04] Speaker B: Yeah, I think if you are. If you still, like, have family Members or loved ones that are in that world, it can be beneficial to try to have these conversations with them. As complicated as it is, I found the most success in appealing to their goodness.
Like, saying, you know, like, I know as a fellow mom, you would hate to have your baby ripped from you if you just happen to be in the wrong country.
[00:41:31] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:41:32] Speaker B: Like, I know, like, you. You would feel that ache. Should we not treating at least like, keeping them together, you know, like, just. Even if it's baby steps, even on the abortion issue, I remember when I first started looking into abortion rates, you know, because I was only ever taught abortion is murder. It is always murder. There is never exceptions. Like, it's. It's just women that hate babies and they go and they have, like, an abortion punch card. And, like, it's this. It's this very sensationalized idea.
[00:42:01] Speaker A: Yep. I wrote that paper in college.
[00:42:03] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. I mean, pretty much same.
But then when I realized, okay, if my goal is to actually lower the abortion rate, the. The left side, like, the left policies actually do that.
[00:42:19] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:42:20] Speaker B: Like, and if you look, there's, like, graphs that show the abortion rate goes down more under Democrat presidents than under Republican presidents. And just looking at.
After Roe v. Wade was overturned, the abortion rate has gone up because bans don't work, and all it does is put women in harm's way. And so realizing that, okay, I may not personally like abortion, and I may not ever choose one for myself, even if my life was on the line, I might choose to try to have the baby, but I also know that if my life is on the line, I want to have that choice.
[00:42:59] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:42:59] Speaker B: I don't think the government should tell me, sorry, you're gonna have to die, even though you have two other children.
[00:43:04] Speaker A: Right.
[00:43:05] Speaker B: Because we think that that baby in your womb is more important than you.
[00:43:09] Speaker A: More value has more value than your life or Right.
[00:43:12] Speaker B: Exactly. And so I think.
I think we can find common ground there, because I do think most people would be like, yeah, I think that should be my choice and not the government's choice.
So I think. And also, just like the history of the church, by the way, it was also taught to me that the evangelical church always hated abortion. It was always, like, the most evil thing that you can do. But in the 1970s, when Roe v. Wade was first ruled upon and became the law of the land, evangelicals were either, like, supported it or indifferent on it. Literally didn't care. Catholics didn't like it. Catholics, I'll say, have been consistently against abortion. Protestants didn't care. They didn't care until it became politically convenient to start using that because racial segregation was no longer popular.
[00:44:01] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:44:02] Speaker B: And so they had to move on to oh, baby murder. Because it does work. It does rally, does rally the troops.
[00:44:09] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, you did a really great job in the book too, of kind of walking us through. Like, here's how the church has globbed on to these very specific issues, do you think, in the future, and I've never thought about this until right now, like, these will not be the issues that we.
Not we. That this particular like, party clings to and that one day, like, nobody will care if people are gay because they'll be so highly focused on something different.
[00:44:35] Speaker B: Yes.
Here's the thing. I, I kind of see this really last, this intense push to, you know, eradicate trans people. That's an actual phrase that has been said. And to completely ban abortion or to take away the women's rights, to ban gay marriage. All that stuff to me is like this desperate last ditch effort because that side is unpopular.
They are losing the culture war. Their policies are not popular for the most part. I know Donald Trump won, but most people voted for him because of the economy and because they didn't like Joe Biden or they didn't like Kamala Harris.
Like, his actual, like die hard supporters are dwindling.
And so I really do think a lot of this is a last ditch effort because, like, I mean, think about it. The, the policies that they've had to make, they had to stack the courts in order to get it. Yeah, yeah.
They've had to really just kind of force their way in to, to pass a lot of these really unpopular policies. So I think it's a last ditch effort. I think it's going to get worse before it gets better.
[00:45:46] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:45:47] Speaker B: But I do think it's going to get better because that pendulum is going to swing because at the end of the day, they don't have the numbers. They're not, they have the power, but they are bleeding support because people are looking at their, their pocketbooks, they're looking at their bank account, they're looking at the price of gas. They're seeing like, oh, these policies actually hurt me too.
And at a certain point, I think people would rather take care of themselves than see people that they hate suffer. If they're also suffering, which is still a problem. Like, like the bigotry and the racism. Like, that is all. Those are all things that we're going to need to address. Yes, eventually.
But I really think that it's going to.
I mean, this might be wishful thinking, but I think in 50 years, the majority of churches will be queer affirming.
[00:46:34] Speaker A: Yeah, Yeah, I see it. I mean, I see it happening. I feel like it's slowly going that direction.
[00:46:41] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:46:41] Speaker A: And I do. I do think about that sometimes where I'm like, one day this will not be the email that I have to answer probably once a week that comes into the church email of, like, what is your stance on this?
And it will be something else because it just will be more normative than it is. Or. And. Or that won't be the thing that people have been taught to care about.
[00:47:03] Speaker B: Right. It might be like AI robots in the future. Right.
[00:47:07] Speaker A: I mean, it's not women preaching anymore. I mean, it is still some places, but, like, that has, you know, gone down, so.
[00:47:14] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, there's definitely still people that care about that.
[00:47:16] Speaker A: Oh. Trust me.
[00:47:17] Speaker B: But they're also dwindling.
[00:47:19] Speaker A: Promise you. I know.
Well, so if people are listening, we talked a little bit about, like, how to approach it with somebody that you love. Right. Appeal to their goodness. That's so hopeful.
[00:47:29] Speaker B: Yeah. I think also asking them questions and getting them to explain their positions.
[00:47:33] Speaker A: Oh, that's good.
[00:47:34] Speaker B: Once they say it out loud, a lot of times that is what makes them realize, oh, this doesn't actually make a lot of sense.
[00:47:40] Speaker A: Oh, that's good. That's good. What about if they're listening and in their own. They're having their own internal cognitive dissonance right now and. But they're probably also finding that, like, guilt or fear coming up about wanting to shift their beliefs.
What would you encourage them to do?
[00:47:59] Speaker B: Be okay with not knowing and embrace uncertainty and not shy from it?
Because I do think when you actually, I think, like, recognizing how much you don't know, that is where faith comes in. Yeah. Like, faith is not, you know that. You know that. You know that. You know, because if you know beyond a shadow of a doubt, why do you need faith? Exactly.
[00:48:24] Speaker A: Right.
[00:48:25] Speaker B: And I would just say, like, because I do think one of the hardest things when I was first, like, started deconstructing was I felt this need of, like, okay, I know. I don't believe this anymore.
So what do I believe on this?
[00:48:39] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:48:40] Speaker B: And I felt like, this. This intense need to have a position.
You know, like, if someone asked me, like, oh, I believe this.
And I did that for a little bit, but then I was like, actually, I don't know.
I. I don't know. And I think it's okay to not have a position.
[00:48:56] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:48:56] Speaker B: On every single theological thing. Because at the end of the day, none of us know. Right.
[00:49:00] Speaker A: For sure.
Right.
I love that.
Well, you and your spouse, Beecher, have two daughters. Right. I also have two daughters. And so sometimes I find myself being sucked into that, like, type of parenting that I saw as a kid. Is there anything that you two are doing to intentionally raise them differently?
[00:49:23] Speaker B: Yes. I mean, we're not telling them about hell or Satan or the Rapture.
[00:49:30] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:49:30] Speaker B: So there's a clear difference.
And are we still going to.
[00:49:34] Speaker A: Cameron is not part of their lives.
[00:49:36] Speaker B: No. No, he's not. Yeah.
He. Yes. But we do go to church, so, like, they know. They know about God. They know about Jesus. We pray every night before we go to bed.
And, you know, we tell them God loves them, but it's like, I think. I think the biggest difference is we. We tell them that they're good.
[00:49:55] Speaker A: Yes. Yes.
[00:49:56] Speaker B: And, like, they don't think they're bad at all.
[00:49:58] Speaker A: They think.
[00:49:59] Speaker B: And, you know, so we. We're constantly. And they are good. Like, they're really good kids. And I.
You know, I. I look at them, and I'm like, I'm so glad that they're getting the childhood that I didn't get to have, even though, like, no shade to my parents. Like, my parents did the best that they could. And overall, it was a happy childhood, but it was layered with a lot of anxiety and fear of. Of things that the belief system taught me.
But, yeah, I think just teaching them that. That they are good and it's okay to make mistakes because everybody does, and it doesn't make them a bad person when they make those mistakes. Yeah.
[00:50:37] Speaker A: Well, so beautiful. I mean, it truly is. Meredith Ann Miller talks about it all the time when, like, when it comes to kids in faith, but telling kids. Yeah. About a good God and Jesus who wants to be their friend and loves them. Like.
[00:50:51] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:50:51] Speaker A: How. How much more attractive is that than all the shame and the guilt and the fear and the control and the manipulation? Like.
[00:50:58] Speaker B: Yeah, that's.
[00:51:00] Speaker A: I think part of why, too, so many people are deconstructing right now is they're like, I didn't ever actually have a real relationship. I didn't ever have a real faith. I just was kind of conned into it for fear of hell or guilt or whatever.
[00:51:10] Speaker B: Right.
[00:51:10] Speaker A: And they're now being able to find, like, the relationship that they thought maybe they had growing up or the faith that they thought that they had in a very real and true way.
Okay, April, last question for You. Because the podcast is called Becoming Church. How can the people listening become the church to the people around them?
[00:51:29] Speaker B: Ooh.
I think just like, living out your faith, like, what we do is so much more important than what we believe, because a belief isn't intangible.
Like, I could believe all the exact right things, but if I'm not helping my neighbor when they're in need, what good is my belief?
[00:51:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:51:48] Speaker B: So I think just, like, trying to be active and, you know, especially today, it is scary. It's a scary time to be standing up for the vulnerable because they. I mean, trans people are under attack, immigrants are under attack, gay people under attack, women are under attack. Like, so many. So many different black people with, like, the voting rights act. Like, there's so many groups right now that are really hurting because of what's happening in our nation. And I think.
I think speaking out and. And standing beside them is how we be the. Is how we become the church.
[00:52:22] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And acknowledging that it's not going to be necessarily simple or, like, there. There's a lot of fear. I took my daughter to her first protest, and because she's such, like, she's all about it, right? Like social justice and feminism and standing up for people. And ICE was in our city, and we were, like, not happening. And so I took her with me and we went to a no Kings protest.
[00:52:44] Speaker B: And.
[00:52:45] Speaker A: And part of me was proud that she was there, and part of me was proud of, like, what I was modeling for her and what she was learning. But the other half of me, if I'm being completely honest, was terrified that, like, there was going to be a shooting or something was going to happen and then.
Because that is the America that we live in, unfortunately, right now.
[00:53:05] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I know. And I think. I think there. There are smart ways to do it. You know, like, there's safety information online if you do go to a protest.
But. Yeah, I mean, even if it's just making a social media post, you know, if people. If you don't typically do that, like, that can change people's minds, because the more people that speak out, the more people will speak out.
[00:53:28] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:53:28] Speaker B: Because a lot of people are probably feeling the same thing, but are too scared to say so. Especially if you're in the church world, because, you know, in evangelicalism, it's like cardinal sin to vote Democrat or to even, like, appear. Like, you may not be Republican and not that voting Democrat is like, the end all, be all, but by any means, you know, but it's just take getting out of your comfort zone. Because I will say, you know, especially as white people, it is a privilege to stay silent. And a lot of groups today do not have that privilege. Yeah, yeah.
[00:54:05] Speaker A: Well, like you said, even just making a post, saying one thing, speaking up in a small group or a Sunday school class or whatever, lets other people who also have those same thoughts secretly know you're a safe space to have these conversations. And then, yeah, yeah, the word can spread.
[00:54:22] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, something that I do.
And you, you do have to have some tough skin. I'm a little used to it now, but if I see like Ali Bestecki or, you know, some big name going after queer people or going after some Marge lagers, especially queer people, I always just comment on there, like, I'm so thankful for queer Christians. Like, they're some of the greatest examples of faith that I know.
And it's just like, really kind, but I'm not right. And I usually get like dozens of comments being like, you heretic, blah, blah, blah. But I'm not writing it for them. I'm writing it for the queer person that is in the closet that is trying to suppress themselves.
And I may not ever know that they saw my comments, but I'm doing it for the. For those people that maybe it can be like a little seed to know like, there's nothing wrong with them and God loves them as they are. And there is another way to be a Christian. You don't have to abandon your faith and your queerness. You can do both. Yeah.
[00:55:20] Speaker A: So good.
So good.
[00:55:22] Speaker B: I love it.
[00:55:22] Speaker A: Great ideas, guys. Take all these prompts.
Well, thank you so much for being here. I'm going to link up the book in the show notes.
I am so thrilled and also jealous that you got to do your own audio because I'm not getting to do my own audio. And it is like the heartbreak of my life. But I really.
It's so silly.
[00:55:42] Speaker B: So silly.
[00:55:43] Speaker A: But I love listening to you. When you were in the intro, you're like, read by me, April. Ah, joy. And I was like, oh, that's so fun.
[00:55:50] Speaker B: Yeah, it was. It was a fun experience. It was the first time I got to actually read my book without editing my book.
[00:55:56] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:55:57] Speaker B: So I just got to like, oh, I wrote this. Oh, this is pretty good.
Awesome.
[00:56:04] Speaker A: Well, thank you for being here.
[00:56:05] Speaker B: Yeah. Thank you for having me.
[00:56:08] Speaker A: I can't reiterate enough that April's book, Star Spangled Jesus is the book for this era of faith. It is so eye opening and helpful for understanding Christianity in this specific season. I've linked it up in the show notes and you can always find all of the books from the guests that are here on our Becoming Church resource list. And if you're like, I don't know, I can relate a little bit, but I'm really still trying to figure out even what I believe anymore. I have another book with a lot of overlapping themes still talks about black and white legalism, living in fear that might have been used to control your behavior, wanting to let your faith evolve but not knowing how because you're you're still low key afraid it's a sin.
That book is called the Other side of Certainty and it's written by me. It's available for pre orders and the link is also in the show notes to answer a question that I was asked by someone still operating in a more rigid faith. Yes, it does have scripture in it, quite a lot actually, as making Jesus the focus is kind of the whole point of proposing this other way to be a Christian. It's also got a quite questions and additional resources at the end of every chapter, so it'd make a great gift for someone you know who's really wanting to take their faith seriously by making it more personal.
If you're even considering purchasing the Other side of Certainty at some point in the future, I would be so grateful for you to go ahead and pre order it. Now. I can't explain the inner workings of publishing, all I know is that pre orders somehow matter even more than purchases that are made after the book is out in water the world.
And if you pre order, you might have the opportunity to join my launch team for some fun surprises, some one on one time with me, some bonus content, and even early access to the whole entire book. Make sure you're following along with me on Instagram @KristenMuchler Young for that announcement. I hope you'll share this episode with someone who came to mind as you were listening and if the episode was shared with you, I hope you'll see the genuine care, concern and grace that brought it to your ears. Until next time, thanks so much for listening and keep becoming the church of the people around you.
