Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:09] Speaker B: Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Mockler Young, and my guest today is Jessica N. Turner. Jessica is a blogger and content creator who finds deals and life hacks to make life easier for busy women. I've been following her since she wrote her first book, the Fringe Hours. And I also found a lot of help in her second book, Stretched Too Thin. She's on the podcast today with her latest book. I thought it would be better than this for people who need to rise from disappointment, regain control, and rebuild a life you love. I'm so pleased to welcome Jessica to the podcast.
Jessica Turner, welcome to Becoming Church.
[00:00:57] Speaker A: Thanks so much for having me.
[00:00:59] Speaker B: I'm so excited to have you. We actually got to connect in person a little while ago at the Mom2Summit, which was amazing.
[00:01:07] Speaker A: Yeah, it was so nice.
[00:01:09] Speaker B: So fun. I've actually been following you though, since 2015.
[00:01:13] Speaker A: Oh my goodness, that's a long time.
[00:01:14] Speaker B: I know. Well, I heard you on Jen Hatmaker's podcast talking about your first book, the Fringe Hours.
[00:01:20] Speaker A: Uh huh.
[00:01:21] Speaker B: And so I had a baby and I was pregnant with my second and it was the first time that I had ever heard anyone talk about like the mental load that females carry and moms carry.
[00:01:32] Speaker A: It's so interesting because that's so buzzy now. And I was like, I was an OG mental load person. Thank you very much. Yeah, I wrote that in 2014. Right. Like, I mean, so that was 11 years ago and now it's like such a huge part of vernacular. But many, many people have told me over the years that that was the first time they heard it defined.
[00:01:51] Speaker B: I mean, my memory is terrible and I will never forget being on that walk. Like I remember where I was in my neighborhood, my like pregnant belly with my AirPods in listening and I was like, this lady has got it figured out and I'm gonna do whatever she says.
[00:02:05] Speaker A: Oh my gosh, that's amazing.
[00:02:08] Speaker B: So I know a lot has taken place in your life since then and I don't wanna minimize it by being like, hey, give us a nutshell version, but help catch people up, like if they have not been tracking with you for that.
[00:02:19] Speaker A: Yeah. So my Instagram handle is Jessica N. Turner, so that's what most people know me from. And I like to say that I help busy women with decision fatigue make decisions. So I share a lot of content around, like great deals and things to find at Target and Walmart. And Amazon and, you know, just your favorite stores, a lot of gift guides, stuff like that. I'm a mom of three. My kids are 16, 13, and 10. So I have a high school and middle school and an elementary school for a few more weeks until we get out of school school. And I was divorced during the pandemic when my husband of 16 years came out to me. And we really wrestled with that for a long time. He told me he was bi in the spring of 2019, then told me he was gay in the fall of 2019. And then we really wrestled with the idea of, you know, could we have a mixed orientation marriage? We still loved each other, we loved our family, but, like, also this genie was kind of out of the bottle.
And then we were talking about separating. He had gotten a contract for an apartment but hadn't signed it yet. And the pandemic happened. And so then we stayed in the same house for a while longer. I still was, like, fighting for the marriage and hoping that it would work out. Which, looking back, I'm like, that was kind of selfish, you know, like, he. He obviously needed something different.
And so we divorced in the summer of 2020. And I have now written a book that just released called I thought it would be better than this. Rise from disappointment, Reg, and rebuild a life you love. And the idea of the book is that we all face great disappointment and grief in life. It is a universal experience. And how do we discuss that? How do we name it? How do we move through it? And how do we create a life that we love, even if the life that we have is different than the one that we imagine for our lives? So I like to say that it's not a book about divorce. It's not a book like if your husband has come out, though, certainly if you've experienced either of those things, you'll find yourself in the pages. But I did focus focus groups with women from around the country as I was writing the book to make sure that they felt seen no matter what their circumstances were. So if you're disappointed in your career or your marriage or friendship or your finances or parenting, like, whatever, your disappointment is that you sit with yourself in the quietness of the night and think, man, I thought this would be better. This is the book for you to feel seen and understood and hopefully get some really great strategies at the same time.
[00:04:49] Speaker B: And it is. It is really helpful. I've read it, I've flipped through it, and I mean, I've done more than flip through it, but I was really surprised Jessica. That every single chapter, you have created places and space. You have made space for people to actually, like, think and process and write stuff down. And so when you say, I mean, this is a tool, like, for any kind of disappointment.
I can see somebody going through this book slowly, like, one chapter at a time, and really sitting with, okay, what do I need to kind of unpack?
[00:05:24] Speaker A: People have said to me, like, I don't know what to do. Should I do the physical book? Should I do the audiobook? And the audiobook comes with a PDF that has all of those exercises that you can, you know, download and print.
But I'm like, I kind of think both, like, it's really nice, I think, to hear. I'm the one who reads it, so hear me telling these stories. It's definitely one part memoir, one part self help, but you definitely also want to highlight and underline and write on the pages as. As you figure it out. Mel Robbins endorsed the book and said, this book will change your life, which. Can we just put that on my tombstone? But I think that it is a really practical book that if people sit with it and do those exercises and kind of get language and strategy around what they're facing, it is a book that can change your life.
[00:06:07] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's more than not to, you know, shirk other books that have, like, questions at the end of the chapter. But it's more than that. Like, you've got grids and charts and I mean, like, actual practical exercises. So well done, you. This is so good. And I love pink under the book cover.
[00:06:26] Speaker A: Yes. I was very excited about that as well. The. The jacket is very beautiful, but then the book itself has that hot pink linen cover on it. That really, really takes it up a notch. People have said to me, you know, is this a book just for women or, you know, can men read it too? I think there's absolutely great takeaway for men. Men have read the book, but it definitely is written by a woman for women.
So the hot pink I really love as well.
[00:06:51] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, in my rainbow shelf back here, I'm like, I'm always missing. There's never enough pink books. So I was very excited.
Well, you titled the book. I thought it would be better than this, which is a thought that probably everyone has had. And I appreciate that right up front in the introduction, you talked about how it wasn't like this light switch moment where you just rose out of disappointment, but that it was a process.
Do you think that this process ever ends, like, in our lives?
[00:07:21] Speaker A: You know, I Want to be a person that's constantly growing and changing and bettering myself.
I think what ends is maybe the initial dissatisfaction or the disappointment.
I think that in grief and disappointment what happens is scars are created. And I tell this story in the book that so many people have loved. I had a hysterectomy a few years ago and went back and saw my pelvic pain surgeon because I was still having pain on my right side and I didn't have a uterus anymore, I didn't have a right ovary anymore. Why was I having this pain? And she said, have you been under a lot of stress lately? I said, well, actually I've been writing this book. I had just turned it in and then I went to the doctor. And she said, well, our scars will sometimes ache, particularly when we're in periods of stress. And it was such a good reminder to me of life and how our scars still can ache and there can still be pain. So I don't think there is a scenario where you're like, you've arrived and like, if you've lost a child or you've lost a parent, you're like, oh, I'm fine. It's, you know, it's good like that there's always going to be that longing, that ache. You know, I think there will be a part of me that always is sad that I didn't have that 60 year marriage.
Even though I hope to someday be remarried and have a long second relationship. Like, what I wanted for my life is not how my life turned out. And so there's disappointment with that and grief with that. But that doesn't mean that you can't still heal and be whole even if that scar aches every once in a while.
[00:08:56] Speaker B: Yeah, right now. And I imagine that this changes. But right now, when you find yourself kind of in these like aching scar moments, what is keeping you going? On the days where it might be easier to just get like sucked back into believing old lies, I'm honestly in.
[00:09:11] Speaker A: A really good place that that isn't something that I'm experiencing. But what I can say historically, when that has happened, I pay attention to how my body is feeling. So when I am feeling sad, when I have moments where, man, this is just not what I wanted, I'm like, okay, what do I need to feel better? And I really pay attention. Like, do, have I eaten today? Have I eaten healthy food today? Do I need to go move my body? Do I need to call someone? There's another story that I tell and I thought it Would be better than this where I was having a really hard morning and my kids were not at my house, they were at their dad's. And I texted my neighbor and I said, I really need a hug. Can I walk down to your house and get a hug? And I walked a block down to her house and sat on her stoop, and she was busy with kids and came downstairs and just sat on the stoop next to me and hugged me. And that was me being very attuned to what I needed that I needed, like, physically for someone to just hold me for a minute. And so I think that's my advice is paying attention to yourself. My boyfriend has said, gosh, I feel like no one knows their body like you do. Like, I'm like, oh, this is what I feel in my body right now. And I use that vernacular a lot. And it is because I became really tuned into what I needed in grief. And that has served me really well as I've healed and become more whole.
[00:10:33] Speaker B: I think once you get to that place, right, that self awareness or whatever you want to call it, of knowing your body really well, I've had to do that myself just in perimenopause of paying attention to, like, why does this hurt? And trying to figure out how it's all connected. I think once you get there, it's really easy. Like, it becomes second nature. But for somebody, Jessica, who's like, I don't. I don't know what my body needs. I don't even know how to begin. Like, how would you encourage them to start figuring that out?
[00:11:01] Speaker A: Yeah, I think therapy is really important.
I talk about therapy a lot in the book. I had never done therapy prior to my divorce and my marriage unraveling, and it changed my life. I did therapy by myself when I was married. And in the months after Matthew and I did couples therapy, as we were navigating things, I went to a place called On Site, which is like a therapy intensive or six days. No phones, no screens, like, just therapy. They say it's like eight months of therapy in six days. And it was really like that for me. It was really transformative. And I think through those different exercises, I became more in tuned with my thera with my body through therapy.
In my circumstance, I think being alone just makes you pay attention in ways. You know, I was married at 22. I met Matthew at 20. I had kids young, and so I kind of didn't know myself apart from being a wife and mom. And so it was interesting in having space where I just Started paying attention. I honestly think even just the act of consciously paying attention, you're going to start to notice those things.
Movement is also something that has become incredibly important to me, that I didn't invest a lot of time in prior to this experience, that there's so much research that shows how movement helps us move through emotion and that sometimes the best thing you can do is just go for a walk.
And the research around being outside and sunshine and all of those things, I think can make a big difference as well.
[00:12:33] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Start small. And then you kind of, as you start to pay attention, then you start to go like, oh, I'm seeing the.
[00:12:39] Speaker A: Connections that I need. Yeah, absolutely.
[00:12:42] Speaker B: Well, I. I know that you want to let Matthew tell his story, but. And he is. But I also know that one of the hardest things for you guys when he came out was the reaction of the church and, and the Christians that were around you. And I have no doubt that you saw their responses and you were like, nope, I thought it would be better than this. What is your relationship with the church like now? Or like, kind of what has. Has changed? Talk. Talk to us about that process.
[00:13:10] Speaker A: Yeah. So I think it's important to acknowledge. Matthew and I both have public platforms, so I have my Instagram. Matthew has a large Instagram following as well. He writes Christian children's books, is probably one of the most famous Christian children's author in America. He wrote books like When I Pray and When God Made you and has completed Rachel Held Evans children's books after she passed away. So he's a prolific writer, has sold millions of books and is very well known.
And the worst part of all of this has been Christians and how we have been treated. Not by all. Please don't hear me making a blanket statement, but a. A group of predominantly conservative evangelicals.
And it has been very, very painful. It's been painful for me. It's obviously been exponentially more painful than Matthew, who has been on the receiving end of more hate and vitriol than you can ever imagine.
And if you click on those profiles, there's usually Bible verses associated with them. And people, please, yeah, please stop.
And it has been hard.
We go to church, not with the frequency that we did. We go to a progressive church in Nashville. We go. We actually go to two. There's one church that we've been at for a really long time that our kids are involved in the youth ministry. It's five minutes from our house, and it's kind of easy, and we can talk to our kids about some of the things that theologically we disagree with.
And then on occasion, the kids and I go to a different church on Sundays. And I find my relationship with Jesus to be really personal and on a one, on one basis, more than found in the four walls of a church.
There's also just like, some actual logistics around church. Sunday's the day that our kids switch from my house to their dad's house.
[00:15:14] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:15] Speaker A: And so, like, the time of church kind of, like, will make that tricky. Right. So if we're going to, like, get out of the house to go to church, then are we coming back to my house and getting everyone ready? And then, like, the timing is different, you know, like, because Matthew and I are supposed to each have, like a weekend day with the kids.
Also, those who are listening, who have teenage boys, can understand the amount of sleep that they want to get on weekends.
So that also makes it tricky. So, yeah, we're in a season with not a lot of church attendance, but not any less relationship with God and with believers who have more progressive ideologies, are dismayed by our country and the state of politics right now.
I won't get into any of that here, but it is important, I think, for us to be having those conversations with our kids and kind of how. And how we're living and how we're loving people. And so it feels. It feels hard right now.
[00:16:16] Speaker B: Yeah, it does feel hard right now. And I'm glad. I'm so grateful that you have been able to kind of separate, like, with a paring knife, like Jesus from his church or like Jesus from Christians.
But I'm also so, so sorry that that was your experience. And I. I know I wasn't the one doing it, but I don't know if you've ever received the apology you and Matthew both probably deserve and your kids. I'm sorry that that was your experience in the church. And I will just say too, to Matthew's books, what Is God Like? Is probably my favorite children's book that, like, my kids will bring it to me. This is one of the Rachel Held Evans, and I cry just looking at the COVID now because it's so beautiful. We actually give them out at our church for baby dedications.
[00:17:02] Speaker A: Oh, I love that that's a book.
[00:17:04] Speaker B: That we buy in bulk and I. Because it is so beautiful. And I think it's the truest picture of truly who God is.
[00:17:13] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:17:13] Speaker B: So I know you're so proud of him and we all love, love, love his book.
[00:17:16] Speaker A: Thank you. I love that. I love There are many churches across America that use his books for baby dedication. And it just tickles me to no end. When we were married, I remember looking at, like, baby dedication URLs on GoDaddy, trying to be like, how can we, like, let more people know that these books are perfect for baby dedication? So I, I will share that with him. It will mean a lot.
[00:17:37] Speaker B: Yay. Oh, yay. Well, what would you say to someone who's listening, who for same reason or a different reason, but maybe has been hurt or disappointed by their church community as well, and just kind of feels stuck in that, like, hurt and disappointment of how they wish their, their Christian community would have responded?
[00:17:58] Speaker A: I think what I would say is if a church has wounded you, that is a group of people, not Jesus, number one. And number two, that that church isn't the only church that you can choose to attend.
And if you're in an area where you're like, well, actually, we don't have many other options that there are great churches that you can listen to online that you can find community elsewhere.
And I think I would encourage that person to go to therapy and talk through those woundings.
Not just the infliction of the experience, but how that impacts you on a deeper level. Like, what is your history? What is your childhood story? Like? Are any of those things impacting it? Because I think I tell a story in the book about I had stargazer lilies in my wedding bouquet, and Matthew planted them along our path of our house, which I still live in, the house that we had when we were married. And so after we were divorced that spring, I like, ripped that out. I was like, that is, I don't ever want to see that flower again. I do not want to think of my wedding day every time I'm, like, walking up the path of my house. Well, then the next year it grew back. Right. Because I hadn't actually gotten at the root of the flower.
And that is also true in life that sometimes we can, you know, oh, I walked. I don't go to that church anymore, but there's still roots there that we haven't dealt with and soil that needs tending. And so I think I would just encourage a listener who feels that way to really tend the soil of your heart and soul for what has really been wounded, not just the experience.
[00:19:53] Speaker B: Yeah, well, and I think that applies to more than just church hurt, too. Any disappointment or grief, it's going to pop up. I feel like that's one of the trickiest things about grief, is every time we think that we've, like, oh, we've come through it and we've healed. Something happens and it does. It pops up again like that, and it kind of catches us by surprise.
[00:20:15] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And. And, you know, I think it's important to pay attention when things catch us by surprise. Like when I notice something in myself that gets me upset or I respond in a certain way, I'm like, huh? That's something that I guess I haven't fully tended to yet. I tell this story that I love.
I had my kitchen and dining room remodeled after my divorce. And my dining room had these beautiful can lights that we could dim and make the room really pretty. And I was knocking down a wall and changing the room configuration so I wasn't going to have that kind of lighting anymore. And when the contractors removed the molding that was around the room, the crown molding, they found right behind the crown molding, wires stapled to the wall, which I'm not a contractor, but I know that's probably not the way lighting should be done.
And the contractor said, you know, this is a fire hazard. Like, you're so lucky that the room didn't catch on fire.
And before that molding was down, you thought the room was beautiful and fine and everything was functioning. But, like, right behind this wood was a fire hazard. And I think that's true in life, too, that we can show, like, everything's fine and things are just going along swimmingly, but right behind the molding, there's a fire hazard, and that has to be tended to or there's going to be an explosion. And so what are those things in our lives that need tending to? And when you find it, what are the things that need rewiring? I'll say that to my boyfriend all the time will be like, oh, still working on rewiring that, you know, thanks for being patient with me. And it's kind of become part of our vernacular, but paying attention to not only what might be a fire hazard or not ignoring something, but then when you have taken care of it, those wires are no longer against the wall in my dining room, there's still rewiring that has to happen in. In my own story.
[00:22:11] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, and it's a question, too, right. Of, like, do we want to take down the molding and look at the wires, or do we want to wait until there's a fire and then, like.
[00:22:19] Speaker A: The repair is substantially worse. Right. And more costly. Right.
[00:22:24] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
Well, I think my favorite story that you wrote about in. I thought it would Be better than this was. You wrote about your first post divorce kiss.
[00:22:35] Speaker A: Oh, yeah.
[00:22:35] Speaker B: And how it felt like a tangible gift from God. And you wrote that, you said it felt like a way of God saying, like, I never left you and you have always been loved. And I love that so much.
[00:22:47] Speaker A: How was the first story I wrote for the book? It was literally the first. The very first story.
[00:22:52] Speaker B: Yeah, I love it so much. I mean, it stuck out to me more than anything else just because I was like, oh, like it felt like, I don't know, a fun little like rom com moment.
[00:23:01] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:23:02] Speaker B: I would say, how can people who are longing for these little like God nudges begin to see them in unexpected places? Because that is not a typical thing where, you know, you're going to go to church and somebody's going to be like, if you need to hear from God this week, like, go, go kiss somebody new. And then you're going to find him.
[00:23:19] Speaker A: I think it's an openness to paying attention to what is around you. I am a firm believer in practicing gratitude and paying attention to small things and celebrating things that other people feel are insignificant.
And so I think that is a little. Not to use the analogy we used before, but a little bit of the way I'm wired. I just am naturally a person who's like, looking for those things and paying attention to that. But it did feel like God was saying, you're gonna be okay, you. I mean, I had so much trauma wrapped up in, like, would I be loved again? Was I worthy of love? Was I desirable? That that first man that I matched with on a dating app and kissed me really did feel like, oh, like, wow, this was great. And oh my gosh, like, it's gonna be okay. Like, it's going to be okay. And I'm not one to over spiritualize things. And so that is significant that I wrote that in the book and how significant that was for me because it did feel like redemption is going to be possible and that is not the man that I'm dating now. We were not right for one another. We are still friends.
But yeah, it was a really tangible thing for me to feel like, okay, it's going to be okay. Even though what I imagined for my life is not the life I'm living right now.
[00:24:50] Speaker B: Yeah.
Well, the book has been out for a little bit. What is something that has resonated with people that kind of caught you off guard or surprised you that you were like, oh, I didn't expect so many people to relate to this part I.
[00:25:08] Speaker A: Think the thing that is related the most to people, that the most people have commented on is not something that surprises me, actually. And it is a part in the book where I was talking with a friend and she said, you have to make the best imperfect choice. It was so significant to me. I actually considered writing a book. Not this exact book, but writing a book about the concept of imperfect choices because it was so profound to me. I was like, this could be a whole book.
And the idea is that sometimes we're faced with two choices, neither of which are great, neither of which are perfect. Right. In my case, it was stay in a mixed orientation marriage or get divorced. There were a lot of cons to both of. Of those things, a lot of pain to both of those choices. And, like, no one wants to choose either of those things if given the option. And that has been such a guiding light for me in so many ways. I'm like, I don't know what to do. I'm like, okay, what's the best and perfect choice here right now? I, like, use it in vernacular with my kids and has really become a part of me. And it has been. I think the thing that the most people have commented on that I've been asked about on the most podcasts is the concept of imperfect choices.
[00:26:17] Speaker B: Okay.
I mean, it's the Emily P. Freeman kind of like, it's what it remind me of. Right? Like, do the next right thing.
[00:26:24] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right. Yep. I would say it's adjacent to what Emily writes about, for sure.
[00:26:28] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, and if I'm being honest, what it really goes back to in my brain is frozen2 and Princess Anna, because she does the same thing where she's like, okay, I just have to do the next right thing.
[00:26:41] Speaker A: Yes. When I saw that movie, I remember texting Emily and being like, oh, my gosh, you're. Your podcast is in a frozen movie, basically.
[00:26:49] Speaker B: And it imprinted on me so strongly.
[00:26:51] Speaker A: Yes. Yes.
[00:26:54] Speaker B: Speaking of kids and things that we learn from, you know, childish analogies for people that are listening who are also like. Like you and Matthew both are having to do, walking your kids through a disappointment, what advice do you have for parents of, like, how they can help their kids to grieve what was while also grieving themselves.
[00:27:16] Speaker A: Yeah. In the circumstances that Matthew and I had, we had almost a year of processing before our kids were introduced to this truth. So if you figure Matthew came out to me in September of 2019, we told them in June of 2020. That was a lot of time. We neither of us were healed in any way. And Matthew certainly had been grappling with his sexual orientation even longer than I knew. Right.
So I think that helped. I think that we had done a lot of therapy. We had met with therapists that were specifically trained for children on how to talk to our kids about this. Like, we were really, I feel like, prepared, and I think that's important that you're not doing something on a whim. I know somebody who went through a similar story and she told her husband and told her kids and like rapid fire, like it was it, it happened really quickly. And I was glad that in our circumstances, Matthew had told me well before we told our kids because I think it made me, as the, as the straight parent, more prepared.
I think having therapy lined up for your kids and, you know, knowing where you're going to take them, you know, especially if your family has not historically done therapy, is important.
I will say that as an adult, I wish that I would have had a therapist prior to going through this. I think if you are not searching for a therapist when you're in crisis, just, you're, you're just set up for a little bit more success because you aren't having to ramp them up on who you are as a person and some of your history.
Thankfully, I landed with a great therapist and it was okay. And starting late is better than never starting. But I, I do think that as an adult, if you can just have a therapist, even if you feel like you don't need one, just that you're established with that you have established trust and care, that's, that's a good thing.
I also think answering your kids questions with the answer and nothing more is usually sufficient.
[00:29:17] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:29:18] Speaker A: So, for instance, my little girl, who at the time was probably like nine when Matthew came out, I really should do the math because every time I get asked this, I'm like, how old was she? Where were we at? She was about 8 or 9. And she said, daddy, if you were gay, why did you marry Mommy? I was like, that is an excellent question, Adeline. Your mother's been asking that for a year.
But we didn't go into like this long discussion around, like, what, you know, Matthew's orientation was and what the choice, like his fundamentalist upbringing and how that squashed, like, we. She didn't need to know any of that, right? Like, she just needed to know the answer in the simplest terms. And he said, adeline, I married your mama because I fell in love with her and I still love your mama.
And, and that was enough for that moment. Kids are going to continue to turn things over in their minds and continue to ask questions. I remember my littlest, who is now 10, was 5 when this happened, and he just did not understand, particularly because Matthew and I had a good relationship, like, why can't daddy just sleep here anyway? Like, he did sleep here. Like, I remember my daughter saying at one point, like, I don't want to have three daddies someday. You know, like, and it wasn't. It came months later. Right. And so then we, we talked about how, you know, she wasn't going to ever have three daddies if mommy and daddy did eventually fall in love and choose, you know, to be with somebody, that she would just have two additional male people in her life who loved her and supported her, but they weren't going to replace her dad in any way. But that she didn't need to worry about this right now, because right now, at that time, we weren't even dating. You know, she didn't even need to be concerned about that. And so I, I think being patient with your kids in the same way you need to be patient with yourself, meeting them where they're at, getting the guidance of professionals on how to navigate things is really helpful. I know that there have even been times, years later, where I've gone to my daughter's therapist and said, okay, this is what we're experiencing at home. What are the ways that we can navigate this that have been really helpful for me. You are parenting. We don't know all the answers. So, you know, be patient with yourself as you're navigating tough situations.
[00:31:35] Speaker B: I think that goes with kids across the board. I know we've had like, you know, sex conversations and questions have popped up and in my brain I'm like, this is the one opportunity to explain everything.
[00:31:47] Speaker A: Right.
[00:31:48] Speaker B: And I think I did that with my oldest. And she doesn't Even remember, like, 90% of what I told her. I'm like, I'm gonna have to tell her again.
[00:31:56] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:31:56] Speaker B: Because that's not actually how it works. It's a conversation.
[00:31:59] Speaker A: That's right. That's right. And I think having other adults who can also support your kids in their journey is very helpful. So some of my closest friends are Angie and Todd Smith. Angie actually has a conversation with me on the audiobook version of the book, which I think is another reason to get the audio, because I love. We have a 20 minute conversation around being friends with somebody during times of disappointment. If you aren't familiar with Angie's story. She and I were pregnant actually at the same time with my oldest at the time, 16 years ago. And her daughter Audrey was given a diagnosis that was incompatible with life. And she passed away just a couple hours after she was born. And so Angie and I have a long history of walking with each other through different disappointments in life. And on the day that Matthew came out to the kids, I had arranged that Angie that the. That the kids and I would go to Angie and Todd's house and that hopefully that day wouldn't just be remembered with their dad coming out, but that it would be remembered.
We went. It was during COVID so we went to the stream that ran through their neighborhood and we, you know, were tubing and playing. And then on the day that Matthew moved out the next week, they stayed overnight at Angie and Todd's house. So the day that their dad was leaving, they were catching fireflies and they were going for a ride in Angie's dad's convertible and, you know, making positive memories. And I think having some of those, like, other adult figures that matter in your kids lives to be around them during those hard times and be safe places to land. I know our babysitter was like, let me go take Adeline out for ice cream and we can sit and talk and I can see how she's doing. Like, those types of things made a huge difference as well.
[00:33:44] Speaker B: I love that idea too, because it's not like you're minimizing. You're not erasing the things that were actually happening. You're just giving them additional memories that can also then be part of this thing so they're not looking back and going, oh, everything was awful for a while. But no, there was hope, there was goodness, there were other people. And yeah, that's really lovely. Well, the subtitle of the book says is, you know, to rise from disappointment, regain control, and rebuild a life that you love. For somebody, Jessica, who's listening, that's like, I don't even know what I need to control. I don't even know what it would look like to rebuild a life that I love. If they're. Maybe there's. They just feel kind of stuck in the disappointment right now. What encouragement would you give to them to figure out, like, what do they even want their next life to look like?
[00:34:34] Speaker A: I think the book does a really good job of walking you through different exercises to do that. So I'm not going to like, walk you through everything that's in the book to do that. But what I would say Is that naming your. This, naming your disappointment, and then identifying what the adjacent disappointments are around that is really, really important. So we can't heal from what we don't acknowledge. And so I had to acknowledge that not only was I grieving that my marriage ended, I was grieving so many other dreams that were related to my marriage. Growing old with somebody, having, you know, this person by my side, having two incomes in my house, like all of those things. Right. That I was facing in that divorce and putting language around all of that helped me identify what I needed to grow in the things that I could control. There was actually a lot of discussion with my publishing team around the idea of control, because some people react really bristly to the word control. They don't like to be controlled. They don't think we have control. You know, some would argue that I didn't have any control in this. Like, my husband was gay. I got divorced. This happened to me. I did not choose this. And, well, certainly I did not choose my husband being gay. I did have some choice in the idea of divorcing. Right. Like, it was something that Matthew and I came to that decision together. And my friend Ann would remind me again and again that I was holding the pen to my lines in the story of my life. So while there is so much in our life that we don't control, that happens to us. We, from. From weather to health diagnoses to maybe even where we are in our job. Right. That somebody else is. Is controlling that promotion that we have not yet gotten.
We control how we respond. We control our attitudes, our emotions, what we do next, the way we live. And so I would encourage somebody who feels really stuck to acknowledge what they have agency over in their story, acknowledge what they can do, and start small. Don't feel like you need to be where you want to be six months or a year from now. Like, what do you need today to move forward? I had physical therapy for Achilles tendonitis last year. And Achilles tendonitis is brutal. And the only way to heal it is with very, very small movements for months and months. The doctor said it would take a year for it to heal. And I remember thinking, how are these little tiny toe bounces going to really help fix this? Yeah, but it was hundreds and hundreds of small movements that caused my tendinitis to heal. And the same is true with just about everything big in life. Like, it's a lot of small, intentional daily choices. And sometimes I didn't do the exercises, and my tendonitis was hurting more And I was like, it's never going to get better. And then I would start again. Like, the same is true in life. And I think the sooner we are willing to start those small movements, the sooner the change that we want to have for our life is going to happen.
[00:37:57] Speaker B: So you're. Yeah. Instead of trying to be overwhelmed by, like, who am I going to be eventually? Just.
[00:38:02] Speaker A: Right.
[00:38:03] Speaker B: What do we need today?
[00:38:04] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. What do we need today?
[00:38:07] Speaker B: Well, before I move to. I have just a couple questions for you that were, like, crowdsourced from listeners that followed. Before we move to that, is there anything else that you want to say about the book? Maybe a topic that people don't ask you about, that you're like, I really want to talk about this.
[00:38:26] Speaker A: It's really, really important. And I said this at the top of our conversation for people me to communicate that this is a book for all of us. Yeah. Because we all have something. We all have a this that in our deepest selves, if we're really honest with ourselves, that we can acknowledge. I thought my marriage would be better than this years before Matthew came out. Right. And I don't know if I would have explored that if I would have gone to therapy, if I would have not just, like, brush that under the rug, if the story that happened would have happened sooner, but if I had been really honest with myself, if I would have read this book, I think my story would have looked a little different than it does now. And so I just want to encourage people to be brave in the acknowledgment because I think it feels scary to even buy a book that says, I thought it would be better than this. Like, you are acknowledging something hard in your story.
And then I think it's also too important to say that this is a book of hope. This is a book of opportunity. This is not a book of disappointment. Disappointment is where we start, but it is not where we end. And there's so much practicality and encouragement and strategic things that you can do. It really is a helpful book. I also think that if you are someone who truly feels like this is exactly the life that I wanted, I am living the life I wanted to live, then I would encourage you to think about somebody who is not living that story. This is a great, safe, loving book that you can give. Yeah. I get asked all the time, what was a book someone gave you during your divorce? I want to help somebody who's going through something similar. Or I have a friend who's going through cancer right now. Do you have a book that I can recommend to her. This is a book that you can give. And I think that this is a book that a lot of people are going to read and then give or that they can trust that they can buy it and give it to somebody else. So I think those are the things that I hadn't said that I want to just emphasize that I think is really important for people to hear.
[00:40:36] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it can be very isolating. And, you know, the. The lie is that we're alone in our disappointment that everybody else's marriage is better than ours and everybody else's health is better than ours. And so when we say these things out loud, I think there's a fear of, like, oh, well, nobody's going to understand or nobody's going to relate. And this really does. This book really is a bridge, I think, between people to say no. We all. We all have these thoughts.
[00:41:01] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:41:01] Speaker B: We're honest.
[00:41:02] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:41:03] Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you for writing it.
[00:41:05] Speaker A: Thank you for saying that.
[00:41:06] Speaker B: Well, a couple, like I said, crowdsourced questions.
Arian. I'm going to shout Arian out because she's followed you for forever. You guys have DM'd a few times. She recommends this podcast even though she's never listened to an episode yet, and.
[00:41:22] Speaker A: She is going to be the first.
[00:41:23] Speaker B: That's what she said.
Like, I gotta shout her out and choose her question. But Arian wants to know how you knew that you were ready for love after having your heart broken.
[00:41:35] Speaker A: So I always knew that I was going to want to date. I loved being married. I. My love languages or quality time and physical touch. Like, there was just. There's there's not a version of this story that didn't involve me falling in love again. Like, it just. It was impossible.
So that said, it took me a while. It was more than a year after Matthew moved out, before I started dating. And my therapist is phenomenal. I write about her in the book and she doesn't really push anything. Like, she's very good at her job. Right. They're really not supposed to. But when it came to dating, she was like, it's time.
Like, we've been talking about this for weeks, maybe months. Like, it is time. And I remember Matthew was away at a conference, and so I had the kids and downloading Bumble and being like, what am I doing?
And I. I definitely made some mistakes. I definitely was catfished. I didn't, like, ever send money, nude photos, like, things like that, but definitely had men talking to me that I was like, oh, you're not who you are showing yourself to be on this app.
And it has been such a healing journey for me both in terms of discovery of myself and confidence. And, you know, I met Matthew and I was so young, I didn't have a lot of dating experience.
I'm also incredibly happy to no longer be on the apps. I've been dating someone for a year and that is just wild. I did not expect when I wrote this book, I wrote it single. I felt like I should not be in a relationship when I was writing the book. So I never expected to be launching the book and be as wildly happy and in love as I am.
Not that I wasn't happy before I was dating, but that this relationship has just exceeded my hopes and dreams, I think in every way, but I think it is. I had to be comfortable with myself. There's a section in the book where I talk about recognizing that my home was not with Matthew, but that my home was in myself. And I had to come to that place, I think, before I could really enter a relationship in a healthy manner. And I think I started dating a little bit before I was there. And it was some of those relationships that helped me to gain a lot of clarity around that.
[00:44:07] Speaker B: Yeah, there was a follow up question too. And I know that you don't talk about your boyfriend specifically, but how did you have the motivation to keep trying after, like, you know, you were catfished or you maybe you went on a couple dates, even the post divorce kiss guy, like when that didn't work out, how'd you have the motivation to keep trying?
[00:44:27] Speaker A: I think because my desire for love was bigger than my disappointment in the hurt. My aunt would say to me, you know, you have to kiss a lot of frogs, Jess, before you're going to find that prince. And I felt like I was looking for a unicorn, that it was like a needle in a haystack. And so I just kept like drilling down with each man that I dated of any length of time.
And there I had, I would say, I'm like counting maybe four significant relationships before John, the guy that I'm dating now. And with each of those, what I wanted became a little more clear to me. Like what I needed became more clear. And you know, I thought this guy was, was the guy. And then I saw things and I was like, he is not the guy. And then I thought this guy was the guy. And. And I learned something with each. And I think, not that we're dating and using people to find what we need. But I do think that there is a discovery process that happens in dating.
And ultimately it was because I knew that I was worthy of love. I knew that I had so much love to give, and I just earnestly believed that my story was not going to be one that ended with me being single for the rest of my life. Like, that I. I would be loved again, and I would be loved in a heteronormative relationship, which I had not had. And I'm thankful that I believed that and kept pursuing that. I do think that people throw in the towel because it's frustrating, and I get that. I. I mean, I. We could have a whole podcast on the frustrating experiences that I had in dating. I dated a man for eight months who was living a double life, was living with another woman. I had no idea. I mean, like. Like, really horrible things.
But I. I just knew. I just knew that it wasn't gonna feel like this forever when I was so sad. I remember saying that to my friend Angie over and over. Like, I'd call her. I'd be in my pajamas in bed crying, like, am I gonna be alone forever? And she was like, this is. It's just not gonna always be this way. It's just not. And I'm thankful that I had friends around me, too, that were believing that for me and encouraging me in that journey.
[00:46:38] Speaker B: Yeah, it's the power of relationships and people who can really see you is so powerful and so important. And I would say, too, I just encourage people who are listening who do not follow you or Matthew to follow you guys. I think your relationship now still is such a beautiful picture of what true relationship is, of what true love actually looks like. And I wish I'd saved. I wish I'd marked the page so I could flip to it and read your words accurately. But you said something toward the end about when you let go of Matthew, you actually, like, got him back as who he really was. Yeah.
[00:47:15] Speaker A: Yeah. I remember laying in bed when Matthew and I were still married, and he would be asleep, and this was when we were grappling, like, are we going to stay married or not? So toward the end of our marriage and praying, lord, please bring him back. What I was praying is, like, bring him back to me. Like, bring back the man who loved me and wanted to be with me.
And that obviously didn't happen.
But I remember several months after Matthew moved out and being in bed by myself. And again, like, I don't have many moments where I feel like God clearly spoke to me, but feeling very Much God telling me I brought him back. And it was because Matthew, once he was out and moved out, it was like he became alive in a way that he was not for years in our marriage, that he was whole and happy and true.
And that was so powerful for me.
[00:48:16] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I'm so proud of you. I mean, I don't have that kind of relationship where we're like, super good friends or anything like that, but just watching you all these years, I'm just really proud. I think you are such a beautiful, like I said, reflection of the love of Jesus to Matthew, to your kids, to your community. And so just thank you for being who you are. Thank you for bravely showing up in honesty and vulnerability and saying. Or you could. You could have just been like, I'm not talking about any of this. You could have said, matthew, go do your thing. Like, we're separated, and so our lives are no longer intersected. And I just think the way that you've leaned into the complexity and the nuance and the challenge because it's right to support each other and love each other is just a truly beautiful picture of what love actually is.
[00:49:04] Speaker A: So thank you for saying that. And it is not without challenge. I think sometimes people look at us on the Internet and they're like, this is too good to be true. I assure you, we argue. There are things that we don't see eye to eye on. We are having to pivot on things. We're navigating right now, both of us being in serious relationships. And, you know, like, there's just stuff that we're going to continue to have to evolve and figure out, just like any. Any divorced couple has to do. But I am grateful that we are able to show up for our kids in really meaningful ways. And I have been told by so many women whose parents could not be in the same room together, where divorce impacted their stories in really negative ways in their childhood and adulthood.
And I wanted to do something different. And so that's what Matthew and I have done, and I'm really grateful for that.
[00:49:56] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, the last question that I ask everybody is because the podcast is called Becoming Church, and we're very much, again, about the church being a people, not a place that we go to for an hour, maybe every, you know, other Sunday or so. How can the people that are listening actually become the church to the people around them?
[00:50:17] Speaker A: I think sitting and listening without judgment is one of the most beautiful gifts that I was given during my season of intense grief and trauma.
And also not forgetting about People who have gone through grief and trauma after what seems like a short period of time. You know, I think in the initial months when Matthew and I had gotten divorced, we or I had friends who would reach out regularly, and then that dwindled pretty quickly. But I was grieving for a very long time. And I remember a Valentine's Day. Not even my first Valentine's Day, maybe my second or third, when a friend reached out to me and said, hey, my husband and I, we went out this weekend. What are you doing on Valentine's Day? I don't want you to be alone. And I. I could get choked up talking about it now because that is the church. Like, that is. That gift of remembering and loving is so significant. And we all have people in our lives that we can be that for. And I think as a single mom, and with Mother's Day just around the corner, I would say something really specific, and that is think about the parents in your life that are divorced, that are single parents in some way that you might be able to support with Mother's Day coming up. With Father's Day coming up. I know my daughter has several friends whose moms are single moms, and they don't have the support from their ex husbands that I have.
Matthew will always make sure that I get cards, flowers on Mother's Day. And these girls, their moms don't have that. And so I, like, take them shopping so that they can get a Mother's Day card for their moms. Or I say, you know, what would you like to get your mom? I'll get that for you so that you can give that to her and just remember them. And so think about who you can remember in your own community. Maybe it is a grandmother whose family is far away that's alone on Mother's Day, or it is a single mom who her kids are little and you could bring a meal to, like, just be a witness and be the hands and feet in a really practical way. And that is going to have an impact that I think can be pretty transformative.
[00:52:30] Speaker B: Yeah, I love that. I love that. Well, Jessica, thank you so much. I will link up your book and your social media and all of the things in the show notes so people can find you and follow you. But this has been so great and so helpful.
[00:52:41] Speaker A: Thank you so much for having me.
[00:52:48] Speaker B: I know we often err on the side of not saying anything to people who have experienced loss or gone through disappointment, because there's a sense of not wanting to stir up old memories or make them have to relive it. So what we need to do is actually turn that idea around a little bit and remember people are probably thinking about that loss or feeling those feelings anyway. And wouldn't it be nice to know that it mattered enough for someone else to remember? We get to be Jesus to people who feel overlooked and bring comfort to those who are hurting just by acknowledging what's going on in their lives. My prayer this week is that we'll all be courageous enough to enter into discomfort with love, and in doing so, you'll continue you to become the church to the people around.
