Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:10] Speaker B: Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus are not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Mockler Young, and my guest today is Nona Jones. I've admired and followed Nona for years, so I was thrilled when she agreed to come on and chat with me.
Nona has held multiple senior executive roles for global companies. She's sold tens of thousands of books. She's helped millions of people with her own YouTube messages, and today, she's here to talk with us. So without further ado, here is my conversation with Nota Gym.
I kind of can't even believe I'm saying this, but Nona Jones, welcome to Becoming Church podcast.
[00:00:55] Speaker A: Wow. I am so, so excited to be here. I'm honored to be here. Thank you for having me.
[00:01:00] Speaker B: I'm so happy to have you. I'm loving the pink lipstick. I want my pink just for you today.
[00:01:05] Speaker A: Well, I figured you might have on something pink. Like, I figured we were just, like, online in the spirit, so it's good.
[00:01:09] Speaker B: I knew we would. I was like, we're going to Vibe. I know we're going to Vibe. We can talk accessories, makeup, fashion all day if we wanted to.
[00:01:16] Speaker A: Yes, yes, yes.
[00:01:18] Speaker B: Well, real quick, before we kind of jump into, you know, intentional living and purpose, I want to do a quick fire Q and A with you.
[00:01:25] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:01:25] Speaker B: So that our listeners can get to know you a little bit.
[00:01:27] Speaker A: All right.
[00:01:28] Speaker B: So just kind of like off the dome. Are you a paper planner or a phone calendar person?
[00:01:32] Speaker A: Oh, I do like all of the above. I just like. I like checking stuff off on paper, but then I also like to plan it digitally. So. Yeah, both.
[00:01:41] Speaker B: Yes. Say my Google Calendar is color coded.
[00:01:44] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:01:44] Speaker B: And then my paper calendar also has not just paper, but, like.
[00:01:48] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:01:49] Speaker B: Post it so that I can cross stuff off and crumple them up.
[00:01:52] Speaker A: Yes, same.
I love it.
[00:01:55] Speaker B: Are you energized with alone time or being around people?
[00:01:59] Speaker A: So here's the thing. I found out recently, within the last year, that I always thought I was an extrovert. So I always thought I was energized by people, but I actually have become an ambivert. And so I love people. I love being energized by people. And then there's like this internal switch that flips, and it's like, I gotta leave. So I don't. It's so crazy.
I'm done.
Do you think.
[00:02:23] Speaker B: I think we're really close to the same age, too, because. Is it your birthday also? In July?
[00:02:27] Speaker A: Yeah. When's your birthday?
[00:02:28] Speaker B: The 26th.
[00:02:29] Speaker A: Oh my gosh. Mine's the 23rd. Yes. Yeah.
[00:02:32] Speaker B: I knew we were close. And I'm 43.
[00:02:34] Speaker A: Yep. Same. Same.
[00:02:35] Speaker B: Right.
[00:02:36] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:02:37] Speaker B: I am three years.
[00:02:38] Speaker A: You're seeing on three days your senior. Yes.
[00:02:43] Speaker B: Do you think it's an age thing? This whole like extrovert introvert? Have you noticed?
[00:02:47] Speaker A: I think it might be. And I think it might also be a function of just vocation. Because I spend so much time around, so many people love it. Like after I get done speaking, a lot of times people will try to like whisk me off and I'm like, no, no, I want to like stay here and like be with people. But then as soon as the line is empty, I'm like, oh, okay, let's go. Like, I don't know, it's. I think it's, it's part of vocation and age.
[00:03:08] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:03:08] Speaker A: I get.
[00:03:09] Speaker B: Well, I feel it, I understand it completely. So I'm with you. What's one thing in your closet that makes you feel the most like yourself?
[00:03:17] Speaker A: Oh, that's such a good question because maybe my. My hand. I have a few handbags that I just really, really love.
Yeah. And I just actually ordered a couple more. And I just, I love them because they're very like chic designer, but they're also kind of funky. And so it's not like a huge like luxury brand, but it's just really nice.
[00:03:39] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, and I will tell people that don't follow you yet or. But that was one of the things that drew me to you. Obviously. You are really a powerful speaker and all of these things, but I just kept watching you and I was like, Nona and I have like similar fashion vibes and I love to see you speaking at a church or at a conference with like big statement sleeves and all of the things. Because that's not, that's not normal.
[00:04:03] Speaker A: No, no, I just, I love, like, I don't know, I like, I like fashion, but I also, I just like to, you know, look good. And I, I know that there is. And I have a balance because I'm just as comfortable in like a really nice, you know, double breasted suit that's like tailored and all that as I am in like an Adidas tracksuit or like a, like sweatpants and leisure wear. Like I'm, I'm comfortable in whatever I'm wearing.
[00:04:28] Speaker B: It's like my personality. I wake up, I'm like, who do I want to be? Do I just need to be like Yoga pants running around, or do I need a little something?
[00:04:36] Speaker A: I feel you on that. Who do I need? Who do I want to be today? Who do I feel like being today? That's the end. That's the question.
Love it.
[00:04:42] Speaker B: What's your best time of day? Early mornings or late nights?
[00:04:45] Speaker A: I would say early mornings. I've never been a. Like a. A night owl. And even when I was in college and friends of mine wanted to, you know, go out, I was like, okay, so 9pm like, are we gonna be back by 9? And they're like, no, we're going out at 10. It was like, oh, well, that's past my bedtime. So y' all go have fun.
[00:05:04] Speaker B: Tell me tomorrow how it was.
[00:05:05] Speaker A: Literally, show me the pictures, because I'm not gonna be there.
[00:05:09] Speaker B: Is there anything that you intentionally do in your, like, early morning time to set you up for your day or anything like that?
[00:05:14] Speaker A: Yeah. So I will go for a run, or I'll go for a walk. I. I run Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, and then I'll walk Tuesday and Thursday. And then after that, I just spend intentional time with the Lord just in prayer and study. And if. If I don't do that, I have found that my day just. It feels really off. So getting in the presence of God is so important to set up my day for success.
[00:05:39] Speaker B: Is there anything in particular you're reading or studying in scripture right now, or do you just kind of, like, go with the spirit flow?
[00:05:45] Speaker A: Well, as well, as it turns out, I'm actually. I'm finishing up my fifth book right now, and so I am doing a lot of study, Bible study, as I'm writing the book. Because, you know, part of that process is I don't want to just share my personal story. I also want to tie my story into insights from scripture. And so, like, just yesterday, I was doing a really deep dive into First Peter, because part of what I'm talking about in my book in this particular chapter is just how suffering is a form of ministry, and it's. It's an unwanted ministry. It is un. An unappreciated ministry, but it is a form of ministry. And so, yeah, First Peter is where I've kind of been camping for the last couple days.
Great.
[00:06:27] Speaker B: And plug that book. When's it coming out?
[00:06:29] Speaker A: Well, sometime in 2026. Okay. I don't have the date yet because my publisher has not decided yet, but sometime in 2026. The working title is the power of petty prayers, and the subtitle is how to heal your heart. When they're not sorry for hur.
And I'm really doing a study through the Psalms when David was basically expressing his very raw emotions to God about being undermined, being attacked, being slandered, how he was able to really give God the weight of that pain, and in exchange just received the peace of God. And so I'm going to be equipping people with how to do that.
[00:07:07] Speaker B: Well, that is needed. So that will be on my TBR list as soon as it comes out.
We're going to talk about in a minute a lot of the things that you've had the opportunity to do. But is there one particular thing, an opportunity or something where you found yourself just going like, only God could have made this happen?
[00:07:27] Speaker A: You know what? Like, man, that is my whole life.
I didn't grow up in the church until I was 11. I got invited to go to church by a classmate. But I look at my early years, I had a very painful, dysfunctional childhood. And I think to myself, I tried to end my life at the ages of 9 and 11. And I look at that and I'm like, literally, I didn't even know who God was.
And yet he protected me. He was with me. I remember I didn't even have a desire as a child to sin. That's the only way I can describe it. Like, I didn't have a desire to, like, experiment with, like, drugs and sex and all that. I just didn't. Even though my mom and I remember it was like in the fifth grade, she invited me into the kitchen and told me to have a seat. And sitting on the table, she had, like, some condoms. And she was just like, all right, well, I know you're going to do it. So I just wanted to prepare you. I was like, what? So I.
I just know that the Lord was with me even in all of the craziness. And the life that I live right now is a complete testament to the redeeming power of God. So I say that not even being funny, like, my whole life is just one big, wow, God, I can't believe you did this.
[00:08:42] Speaker B: Yeah, well, let's get into that. How did you, like, tell us kind of the background of your faith? And I know God was with you in those moments when you didn't even realize it. Yeah, but, like, when did you realize it? Talk to us.
[00:08:55] Speaker A: Yeah, so like I said, I did not grow up in a Christian home.
My father passed away shortly before my second birthday, and my mom, she took us to the other side of the country because she met a Man who said he would take care of her and take care of me.
But that relationship fell apart shortly after we moved. And I do remember pretty vividly that there were a bunch of men that came in and out of my life from, from an early age.
And she eventually settled on a guy who became her live in boyfriend. And I didn't like him from the very beginning. He scared me. There was something about him I just didn't like. But my mom said, just give him a chance, you know, he's a good guy, he'll grow on you.
And about three or four months after he moved into our home, my mom's sister passed away. And so she had to go to the funeral. And I begged my mom to take me with her because I just didn't want to stay with him, honestly. But she couldn't afford my plane ticket and so I had to stay with him. And the very first night she was gone, he assaulted me. And I was about, about 5 years old.
It was so sorry. Deeply traumatic. He told me afterwards that, you better not tell your mom. She doesn't want you, she'll get rid of you.
And so that scarred my mind.
And so I didn't say anything for two years while he repeatedly abused me. And you know, once I finally did work up the courage to say something, I was like seven, almost eight, tried to tell my mom what he did, and she had him arrested for it. And I thought it was over. But then he, on the day of his release from jail, she took me with her to pick him up and brought him back home. And so the abuse just basically picked up where it left off.
And it was around that time that I started to have suicidal thoughts.
And I did not know what was on the other side of death. Again, I didn't go to church. I didn't know it was on the other side of death.
At the time. I was just like into horror movies. So I watched things like Friday the 13th and Nightmare on Elm street and all these things. So I just saw people die and like they, when they died, that was it, right? So I was like, okay, well, maybe this is the solution. And so at 9 years old, I tried to end my life. I had saw a talk show where a toddler died from drinking bleach. And so I went to our laundry room and I couldn't find bleach, but I found some laundry detergent, so I thought that was the same. So I drank that.
I just got an upset stomach. Thank God.
I just thank God for that.
But then fast forward a Couple more years. And I tried to end my life. I tried to cut myself. I actually have a scar. It's on the inside of my left wrist just to remind me of God's faithfulness and how he protected me. And it was shortly after that that my classmate in the sixth grade invited me to go to church with her. And I. I thought church was a game. Like, I thought we would go over her house and play church. I didn't know what it was. And so when her mom picked me up and we went to the church thing, I remember getting out of the car and there were all these families walking in, like, holding hands.
Um, there was a sense of love. There was this woman at the front door who. I'll never forget her face at all.
She. When I walked in, she just looked down at me. She was really, really tall. She looked down at me with such love and just warmth and kindness. And that was like, one of my first memories of someone actually literally seeing me and loving me just with a look, you know, just. Just with a look. And the very first sermon I heard that day, the pastor preached. I think it was Psalm maybe 27, where he said, God is a father to the fatherless. And I didn't have my father. And so that became a question for me, like, God is a father to the fatherless. I don't have my father, so who is God? Yeah. And that was literally the exact. I mean, again, God did it, because that was the question that started me on my path toward discovering who Jesus was and who I was in Jesus. And here we are today. So that's. That's my early. My early journey.
[00:12:58] Speaker B: Wow. Thank you for sharing all that.
I know it's probably painful to have to relive some of those things. Even though I'm sure you've done it a million times, I don't think that the sting probably ever goes away. So thank you. Thank you for that.
That led you then to.
You, like, operated in some faith you've led.
Right. In some faith organizations and talk to us about that. So you went from this little girl figuring out, like, what does it even mean that God can be my new father, to now leading other people in their faith.
[00:13:29] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, I will tell you, I never intended. It was never my aspiration to be in ministry. I knew that I was called to. To speak, but it was my thinking that I would do that, like, in. In, like, a Bible study setting or maybe in a Sunday school.
So When I was 17, I was at a church where my pastor recognized a communication Gift within me, and he worked with me and I ended up getting licensed into ministry at 17. But again, my thinking was, okay, Sunday school, Bible study, you know, maybe every now and then I might, you know, teach in big church, you know, maybe like once a year or something. But it was never my aspiration.
As a matter of fact, vision for my life was the corporate track. You know, I thought that I would, you know, go into corporate America, become a business executive, become CEO of some large company one day. That was my, my thinking and that was the path that I was on.
Right. You know, I got out of college, first year out of college, I was in my very first executive role and it was like a steady trajectory up and to the right from there. Yeah. And I think I'm trying to remember when it was because I never intentionally hid my faith. But I feel like there was a point at which my faith became very front and center. And I think it might have actually been when I was at Meta, probably. Okay, because I was, I was asked to build the global Faith Partnerships team. And it was a multi faith type of approach. Like, we didn't just work with the Christian, you know, community, we worked with Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, all of it. And. But I think it was then that I just felt, in some ways I felt freed to really talk about my faith because I was leading this team within this company.
And I had some really great conversations with colleagues as a result of it.
80% of the tech industry is atheist or agnostic. The vast majority of those who would consider themselves to believe in God tend to either be Muslim or Buddhist. And so the Christian population in the tech industry is very small.
But I was very open about the fact that I was in ministry, that I love Jesus. And so I had some really great conversations with colleagues, some of which came out of me sharing my story of trauma and how the Lord redeemed that. And I had colleagues come up to me and say, you know what? That happened to me too. I've never told anybody I don't believe in God. I would just love to learn more about you and your faith. And so that's really, I think how it kind of started was just the Lord opened doors for me to share what he had done in my life and that became a moment for ministry.
[00:16:19] Speaker B: So then you moved out of Help Me. I know you were with Meta and you started this whole. What did you call it?
[00:16:24] Speaker A: A global. It was a global faith partnerships team. Yeah. Okay.
[00:16:27] Speaker B: Does that still exist?
[00:16:29] Speaker A: You know, I think it got folded in because I left in 2023, I think it got folded into another team, so I'm not even sure.
[00:16:36] Speaker B: Okay, and so then when you left Meta, is that when you then started really focusing on, like, your efforts in faith and purpose and identity and that kind of thing?
[00:16:45] Speaker A: Great question. So first I need to say the average 10 at Meta is like, 18 months.
I was there for about six years, and when I. When I reached my fifth anniversary, this was August 17th of 2022, I sensed then that it was. That it was time for me to. To go. Because so many things had changed at the company. The focus had changed. At first it was about community building. Then it changed to the Metaverse.
The culture had changed. When I first joined the company, there was deep. I would call it deep symbiosis. Like, teams loved working together. We. We worked together, we built together, we innovated together. But by my fifth anniversary, things had become really toxically competitive. People were competing for resources, they were competing for talent, for headcount. It was just really, really toxic. So, anyway, fifth anniversary comes, and I pray to the Lord, because I sensed that the season was up, and I was like, I really want to bring everything I've done, everything I've built, everything I've learned, I want to bring it to the kingdom directly. While I was in that role, it was more indirect.
I was, you know, certainly working with churches, and I had my team working with ministries around the world, but I just wanted to do it more directly. And so, yeah, it was. It was after I left Meta that I was able to join the team at YouVersion and be much more intentional about how to leverage technology as a tool for spiritual formation and growth.
[00:18:16] Speaker B: Yeah.
What, because you've been in leadership positions in both, right. Like the secular corporate world and then, you know, more Christian circles. What have you learned about leadership?
Like, what's the difference in those. The two, like, workplaces?
[00:18:31] Speaker A: Boy, this is a good question. So, you know, so depends. Like, I think that.
[00:18:40] Speaker B: I think that's fair.
[00:18:41] Speaker A: They're. They're. Because what it really is about is the heart of the leader. I don't think the organization determines how you show up as a leader. I think it's your heart that determines how you show up as a leader. And so you can have someone who has a pastoral heart in a secular type of leadership role where they really care about their people.
They care about the environment that their people are working in. They want their people to grow, they want their people to thrive. They're very, very people centered. But then you can also have someone who has more of like a. I call it an insecure leadership style, which is one where they derive their sense of worth from being the leader. They derive their sense of worth from making the decision. And so they are threatened by people who do not either, you know, honor them or people who maybe make a decision they didn't agree with.
They can end up stifling people's, you know, capacities and leadership because they just want all the credit. And you can see that in the. The church. That's why I'm saying it. It really is about the heart.
We tend to think that secular leadership is where we see those things. But no, I have. I've seen it in ministries, too. I've even seen it in people who don't have formal leadership roles, but they maybe are serving in an unpaid capacity. But because they have an insecure leadership style, because they themselves are insecure in their identity, it shows up. And so I will say this. I think the context can be a little bit different. So in corporate, especially if you're working for, like, a publicly traded company, the bottom line is shareholder value, period. Like, nobody cares about how you're developing. Nobody cares about, you know, your opinion. What matters is how does this map to shareholder value in ministry? It should be ideally about how is this winning souls for the kingdom? And then how is this maturing people's faith, like the evangelism and discipleship, like, those should be the two main mile markers in ministry. Unfortunately, that's not always the case.
[00:20:48] Speaker B: Yeah, how are you seeing that on the tech side? Because it, to me, I'm like, oh, youversion studies. Like, it's all discipleship, discipleship, discipleship. Is there, like, an evangelism piece to what you guys are doing, or are you trying to create one?
[00:21:02] Speaker A: Oh, great question. Well, so first of all, I. I stepped off the team at you version earlier this year, But I can tell you youversion is very, very, very evangelistic in terms of go and spread the word of God, go get the Bible into people's hands.
One of the things that we had been talking about before I stepped off the team, which I'm super passionate about, and I know the team is too, is beyond, you know, spreading the word of God. How do we get people into community with one another? So they're actually studying together because that is the heart of discipleship. And so I think that's. That's one of the big questions that the team is continuing to wrestle with. But that has to be the North Star. It isn't a enough to give people resources if we're not also placing them in community so they can learn how to use those resources together.
It's. It's the model of the early church. You know, the, the early church did not exist as individuals who figured it out on their own. The early church existed as, as houses and homes where people came and they wrestled through questions of the text and application together, and they ate meals together. They. They did life together. And so I.
The ultimate goal. And I think that's really where the organization's headed.
[00:22:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
And I know that, that there's little things. You know, it's so funny because it's youversion and Meta. I'm like, now on my youversion, I'll get friend requests and things like that. And I'm like, wait a minute, is this becoming. I know it's not social media, but I can see where they're trying to make those connection points there because there.
[00:22:35] Speaker A: Is like, so for, for the many, many ills that social media has. And girl, we could talk about that all day long and I'd be happy to do it. For the many ills that social media has.
What it has as a virtue that unfortunately has not been fully understood is the capacity to connect people who would not normally be connected.
I, you know, I think about my early childhood and of course, hey, we're born three days apart. So, you know, when, when summer came, I didn't know what my friends were doing unless they told me. Like, I, I had no way of knowing. They went out of town. Like when, when we came back to school. School. That's when I found out what they did over the summer. I didn't know.
I knew who, you know, the prettiest girl was at my school. I didn't know who the prettiest girl was in my whole, like, in every school in my town.
[00:23:23] Speaker B: Right.
[00:23:23] Speaker A: But now. Right. Like, social media has. Has given you the ability to. To find out things and connect with people in ways that you couldn't before. So that is, that is a virtue. But of course, there are so many vices to it and that. That's where it gets to be a little bit. Bit challenging. But yeah, the ability to connect and actually build friends with other Christians around the world is.
[00:23:44] Speaker B: Lean into that a little bit, Nona, Because I think especially right now, even people that are like, chronically online, I'm one of them. I'm chronically online. I always know what's happening. And so I try to bring hope and I try to bring joy and like, all of the things, but it can Be hard. And also there's just a lot of noise.
[00:24:02] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:24:04] Speaker B: How would you encourage people to. On social media, kind of lean into like the virtues and use it for good?
[00:24:12] Speaker A: You know, I think it honestly is a function of who you're following.
I. So if you look at my follower to following count, it's very, very, very vastly different. And that's because I have a. I'm very intentional about who I follow. Like I. If somebody is constantly posting negativity or conspiracies or things like that, that is the easiest unfollow for me possible.
It's so easy for me to be like, because, you know, the. The word of God tells us, guard your heart with all diligence, for out of it flows the issues of life. That word issues is actually translated from a Hebrew word that means boundaries.
And so we have to remember that the boundaries that we set for ourselves are really a function of what we allow to have access to our heart. And so I am very intentional about, I call it weeding my feed. Like when I see stuff that either makes me feel worse about myself or even makes me think differently about God or people, I will immediately unfollow or I might mute or something like that if I don't want to unfollow because they're like a friend. But you got to be intentional about that. Even on YouTube, I have found myself, especially now in this climate, this environment, there's just.
There's just so much going on. I have found myself having to almost every day or every other day, like either ask YouTube. You know, don't suggest this channel, don't suggest this thing because you get into this rabbit hole of negativity and you could just be angry all the time.
But here's the thing. We have to know this anger, anger in and of itself, just being angry about stuff that's actually demonic.
That's. That is demonic to just be angry about stuff. There is righteous indignation. That's totally different. The thing about anger, this is why the Bible tells us it tells be angry, but sin not. Okay? What anger does is it triggers you and it triggers you to focus on something because what you are angry at becomes a source of a threat.
And we have to think about it this way. It becomes a source of a threat. So you're just like, okay, I'm going to focus on this thing that has made me angry because somehow it's threatens me. There are so many things right now. This is why I unfollow a lot. There are so many things Right now that are heightening anger about what is not a threat.
So we're just walking around angry and then we're, we're, we're talking down on each other. We're fighting with each other over things that don't even threaten us. And so if we're not careful, if we don't check the anger, it will lead us to sin. Things like slander, things like gossip, things like fighting, physically fighting, you know, so, yeah, we have to guard that. And again, the whole thing about righteous anger is I am angry about what angers God. What does anger God angers. What angers God is oppressing the marginalized. What angers God is when we're taking advantage of people. What angers God is sin. Right now we're angry about stuff that has nothing to do with God. It has everything to do with us and how I feel and what I think. And it's just. Yeah, so I weed my feet in order to protect my heart.
[00:27:31] Speaker B: That's good. That's really, and I think helpful for people to think about as they go through. You know, just, just watch today as you scroll like what emotions are kicking up as you're seeing these things. But also talk to me about the tension of weeding your feed without operating in an echo chamber where you only listen to voices that confirm what you want to be true.
[00:27:52] Speaker A: That is so important. So the way that I do this is I, I definitely weed out those who are clearly not trying to have a dialogue. Like, it's like they're just, they're, they're, they're either degrading or somehow castigating people.
That's not a dialogue. But if it's somebody who is just like, hey, I want to offer this idea to you. Here's a counter fact that I want you to consider. I am more than happy to consider that. And I love that because I want somebody to challenge, as you said, the echo chamber.
I follow people just as an example. I follow people that have all types of different views and all types of different, whether it's political leanings, people who are in different streams of the faith. And I love it because hearing what they think and the vantage point that they have, it actually challenges me to consider, do I need to broaden my perspective on this? And I do think that is something we have to be intentional about. So I think that's such a great call out. You don't want to be in a situation where everybody in your feed thinks exactly like you. At the same time, if you are following people who Think differently, but they're also degrading people.
That is a problem. Yeah.
[00:29:07] Speaker B: I think when I was growing up, it was like, there was a fear. There's a lot of fear. But one of the fears was if we listen to people or we read authors or whatever that are different than, like, by osmosis, our belief, you know, like, everything's gonna change. It's like, don't listen to that right now. I'm like, but that's how I actually learn.
[00:29:26] Speaker A: Correct. Correct.
[00:29:27] Speaker B: What does the other side think and why?
[00:29:30] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm the same way. So I read for years. I've been reading a book a week, and that has helped me broaden my perspective on so many levels. And I read books about all types of subjects.
I. There's this one particular book. Now, I do have to be careful, because the thing. Thing about me is I'm like, okay, I don't want to read this book because I just totally disagree with this person. I want to read this book because I want to hear their perspective.
That's a very different posture. Right. Then I'm gonna read this book because I think they're stupid. No, I'm gonna read this book because I just. I don't understand them. And I want to kind of understand where they're coming from.
[00:30:06] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:30:07] Speaker A: Which I think is. It doesn't have to change my mind, but at least I understand where you're coming from. Yeah.
[00:30:13] Speaker B: Well, that helps us to be compassionate even when we disagree, for sure. And it can help us to solidify what we do believe.
And we have counterpoints for. Like, that's why I think this.
[00:30:22] Speaker A: Well, and this is. This is honestly why I think it's really important for us, especially as Christians, to know. And so one of the things that was so beautiful for me when I was leading the Faith partnerships team at Meta is I spent a lot of time trying to understand other belief systems because we had to serve them. Like, we had to serve the Hindu population. I didn't know anything about Hinduism at all, but I learned about it because I'm like, we have to step. We have to serve this population. I want to understand what's important to them.
Same with even Judaism. Now, what's interesting is, of course, we know that Christianity, in many ways, of course it derives out of Judaism. And we know that we have the Old Testament, we have the Torah and all these things, but there was so much I did not know about Judaism, so much I did not know.
And it was. It was fascinating. Same with Islam, learning about all these different Belief systems. What I came to realize is that Christianity is the only true system of faith. Every other system is based on checking boxes. It's based on, you have to do this in order to get this, and then there is no promise. It's like, if you do this enough, hopefully maybe we'll see. You might end up in heaven, but we don't really know. Whereas in our faith, like, we have assurance. We have assurance. And, and the fact is, like, we don't. It's not a question of our, our lifestyle is going to either get us into heaven or not. We know that even though we, we fail, we make mistakes. We know that even though we fall short of the glory of God constantly, that it is the finished work of the cross that actually, actually justifies us.
But so many belief systems, it's like you don't even know what's going to happen after you take your left, your last breath. You hope you were good enough, but you don't know. And I'm like, man, the knowledge that what Jesus did actually justifies me. That's what leads me to say, I want to live my life to please God. It's not that I'm doing it because, you know, I think this will get me into heaven. It's because I'm so grateful for what was done for me that, God, I want my life to make you proud. I want the life that I live to, to be the gratitude for, for what you did for me. So it's a completely different mindset. And that was fascinating.
[00:32:49] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Instead of toiling away and, like, running on that hamster wheel of, I hope, I hope, let me just make sure that it's good enough.
[00:32:55] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:32:56] Speaker B: We get to live in the freedom of.
[00:32:58] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:32:58] Speaker B: We do these things because of our faith.
[00:33:00] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:33:00] Speaker B: Not in order to earn something.
[00:33:01] Speaker A: Talk about insecurity, like when you don't know if you were good enough to get to heaven.
Oh, man, I, I thank God. I thank God for Jesus. I really do. But that also speaks to why we have to be open about our faith and we have to have a sense of urgency around sharing our faith because there are people who are doing that. They're on this hamster wheel of, oh, I don't know what's going to happen.
And that's just, that's just not a way to live well.
[00:33:31] Speaker B: And then it takes Christianity and it makes it exactly the same as all those other religions, like you said.
[00:33:35] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:33:35] Speaker B: It can also become about check boxes if we let it.
[00:33:38] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:33:44] Speaker B: And breaking in really quick to this conversation to ask you a question. If you're enjoying becoming church, will you let someone know? I love when I hear from you that you're binging episodes or just finding and listening to all kinds of conversations because it's always a relief to hear confirmation that what you're doing matters. But even more than I need to hear it, other people need to hear it too.
If someone pops into your brain while you're listening, text them the link and say, hey, let's talk about this. If there's a particular guest that you loved, tag them when you share the episode on social media to affirm that their voice matters too. And if you really want to help get this podcast, be found by the people who are looking for, I don't know, maybe a Christianity that allows them to think and question and learn as they grow. I would love for you to leave a review specifically on Apple Podcast podcasts. Even if you listen on another platform and you're welcome to go leave your five stars there as well, Apple really still is the place to leave your comments. Like Susanna Bodana, who said, I started listening to another podcast with a guest I was interested in, but immediately started listening to yours when I saw that you had interviewed the same guest. Because you always ask really good questions and it's apparent that you really care about the body of Christ.
Listen, if you also have really nice things to say that will let the people know that this isn't just another cliche churchy podcast. I encourage you to let the world know by leaving your own with you.
So Nona, in your day to day now, what are you mostly doing besides writing this fifth book? Because I know that takes a lot of your time. Are you coaching? Are you doing retreats? What are you doing mostly so all of the above.
[00:35:27] Speaker A: So there's there's a bunch of different pockets going on. So writing my my next book, I also am speaking quite a bit. So I get to travel and be a part of a bunch of amazing conferences and gatherings. So I get to do that on a pretty much a weekly basis, which is cool.
I do have, I call it a business, but it really is more of a ministry. But it's for high capacity women. So women who are leading in the marketplace or ministry.
And I have a company that really ministers to them. So dealing with their own trauma, dealing with their leadership and making them better leaders in their different capacities and vocations. And as a part of that we do have an annual retreat. It's called Success from the Inside out and we spend about four Days together, dealing with everything from, like I said, the trauma that's within us to the leadership and the opportunities that are outside of us, building community with these women. We go to some really great, nice places, and it's a luxury type of experience, so people get to rest as opposed to just be in sessions all day. So we're doing that. And then I'm also. Next year, I'm rele. I'm unleashing a new program called Ascend, which I'm really excited about. You talk about discipleship. I'm going to be going deep with a group of about 10 women just over the year doing coaching. But it's really about identity. I feel this weight when it comes to understanding your identity. Because I've lived a life where so much of what I was pursuing, pursuing was because I didn't know who I was in Jesus. And so on the other side of the success, on the other side of the accomplishments, I felt unfulfilled because I had the things, but I didn't know who I was.
And so, yeah, Ascend is all about. I call it an identity incubator. It's all about helping these ladies return back to an understanding of who they are in God. So, yeah, there's a lot, lot going on, but it's all good stuff.
[00:37:24] Speaker B: That's so great. Yeah. When I often get the question, because I was.
I think we have some similar. Some similar things from growing up and our backgrounds. Like, I also didn't know who I was for a long time, and I was just quiet and I fit the box and I did all the things and I was definitely not like the out there fashionista, loud, bold, whatever that I am today.
And it really did. People will ask me all the time. Women ask me all the time, like, how did you get to be so confident? And how do you not care what people think?
[00:37:53] Speaker A: And.
[00:37:53] Speaker B: And I think they're looking for an answer that's not identity, but it really is.
[00:37:57] Speaker A: Like, no.
[00:37:58] Speaker B: Once I realized who God created me to be and that he actually likes me, like, yeah, yeah, that changes everything.
[00:38:05] Speaker A: So I'm going to tell you the. The exact revelation God gave me. This was only maybe two months ago.
I was in prayer and the Lord told me. He said, nona, I've called you to a very specific part of the body. And I was like, okay. And I'm like leaning in, like, all right, Lord, like, well, what is it? Like, the hands, the feet, the heart, the what? And he. He said, I've called you to the identity of the body.
And I was like, what does that even mean?
And he said.
He said, identity is the past key to purpose.
And I was like, the past. What is that? Like, I'm sitting here like, laura, what are you even talking about? And so that he tells me because. Because at first I was thinking past key. Oh, so you mean like, it's like a password or something? And he was like, no, it's a passkey. And he said, look up the difference. So, you know, having worked in tech, I had a general understanding of what a passkey was, but I was like, okay, I'll look it up. So I look it up. And so a password is a string of characters. We know how to use a password. It's a string of characters that you input into a system that basically unlocks whatever is password protected. The thing about a password, though, is because it's a string of characters, you can give somebody a password. You can just say, hey, here's my password. You can access the thing.
There are also data breaches all the time where passwords get leaked because a password is saved on an external server. And so passwords, even though they are a form of security, they're actually not very secure. But a passkey is entirely different because a passkey is not a string of characters. A passkey is actually embedded within the thing that holds the passkey.
So when you unlock your iPhone with. With face id, that's a passkey, because your eyes are the passkey. When you use a fingerprint, right, to unlock your computer or to unlock a door, that is a passkey, because you actually are the passkey. And God said your identity is your passkey to your purpose. Like, your purpose is literally embedded within your identity. And so if you don't know who you are, if you are walking around here thinking, oh, I need to be like that person or I need to look like that, I need to do that. If you're doing that, you can do that, but you will not be walking in purpose. And that is why you will lack fulfillment because you are actually living your life under a false identity. And so he said, I've called you to restore identity to the body. So everything I do when I'm out speaking, whether it's at a youth conference, whether it's with pastors and leaders, whether I'm at a women's conference, whatever it is, everything I'm doing is talking about identity and restoring identity. Because once you know who you are in Christ, like you said, it's like, I couldn't. I literally couldn't care Less if I get invited to do anything. Like, because I know who I am. And so the purpose that God has given me, I'm walking in it every single day. That's what fulfills me. Not applause, not affirmation, not likes, not follow up. Like, none of that matter. I hardly ever check my social media. Now, I may go on there occasionally, but I hardly check it because I know who I am. Like, that is the superpower.
[00:41:23] Speaker B: I'm like, everybody listening is Googling. They're like, ascend, Nona Jones.
Okay, so right now, as people are listening, they're like, yep, I need this. I'm gonna look more into that.
[00:41:37] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:41:38] Speaker B: And I love that you said God was telling you, right? Because I definitely feel like Holy Spirit speaks to me in a variety of ways, But I've also had a lot of people be like, I don't know what that means, and I don't know how to do that. So for people that are listening that they're like, I don't even know where to begin.
How would you encourage them to kind of discern God's voice from, like, all of the other noise?
[00:41:59] Speaker A: Ooh, this is a good one. This is a good question. So let me see if I can answer this very quickly.
Here's the thing.
God is always speaking.
He's always speaking because God is the word. Like, God speaks through the tangible, physical word, his word, the word of God.
God speaks in the whispers, the sense of what you feel like there are times where you've known something, but you don't know how you know it. Like, God speaks that way.
God can speak in nature. God speaks weeks in prayer. I was.
I had a laptop, an older laptop that I had saved all of the, like, videos and photos for my babies when they were growing up. And it got misplaced. It got lost, and my heart was, like, broken because it literally contained everything. And the other day, I just decided to pray about it because I tore up my house looking for this thing. Tore up my house looking for it.
I decided to pray. I was just like, God, I need you to show me where this thing is.
And immediately, I got a visual.
I walked over to a cabinet that I had already been in, and it was right there. Yep. And so I think part of it.
We have to believe that God speaks. We have to believe that, because if you don't believe that, you will never hear his voice. You'll discount it. So you start. It starts with believing that God speaks, speaks. And then it also starts with inviting him to speak to you and asking him to attune your ear. Open the eyes of my heart, Lord, so that I can see what you want me to see, so that I can hear what you want me to hear.
But yeah, believing that he speaks and inviting him to do it, those are like the two costs of admission to hearing the voice of God.
[00:43:54] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think that's a lot of. A lot of the struggle too is like people doubt.
[00:43:58] Speaker A: Oh, well, that. Right.
[00:43:59] Speaker B: Oh, well, that's. No, it is like, what. But what if it is?
[00:44:02] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. Because faith, we have to remember like faith and, and Hebrews tells us this. But faith is the substance of things hoped for. It's the evidence of things not seen. So we have to first have faith before we can even have the, the. The. The evidence of what we're hoping for. Because that is faith. Yeah. And so we have to start there. And I think that's what the enemy wants, is he wants you to not believe. Because, see, the enemy knows. It's so funny. I think this was, was it James 2:19 that says you believe there's one God. Great.
The demons also believe and tremble. Right. So they know. They know who God is and they know the power that he has, but many times we don't. And so faith is, Is absolutely necessary.
[00:44:49] Speaker B: I just preached that. So, hey.
[00:44:54] Speaker A: That'S perfect.
Well, you, you have.
[00:44:58] Speaker B: You shared a little bit of dark seasons that you've been in. I know that a lot of people feel like we're kind of in a collective dark season right now.
How do you keep holding on to hope and so much uncertainty? And I mean, honestly, you look around sometimes and you're like, okay, Jesus, like, come on now, because.
[00:45:16] Speaker A: Help.
[00:45:17] Speaker B: How do you hold on to hope now?
[00:45:18] Speaker A: So it, it. It gets back to faith is the substance of things. Hope. Hope for my. My hope. And we have to remember the Bible tells us that the they that hope in the Lord, they that wait on the Lord shall renew their strength. Right. So when you, when you are feeling like, oh my gosh, I'm feeling weak, I don't know if I can sustain this, then we have to ask ourselves, where is our hope? Because when our hope is in the Lord, he will renew our strength. It's not something that we will do. It's not something that we're responsible for.
But we have to remember God does not change. We say that he's the Alpha and the Omega, that he's the beginning of the end, but the truth is God is before the Alpha and he's after the Omega. You know what I mean, so it's like he is. He is outside of time. And so there is nothing that happens that he's like, didn't see that coming. You know, like, we got to figure something out, because that threw me for a loop. Right? That's not. And so that's why we can have hope in the Lord, because He knows what's happening. And even though everything seems crazy, the promise that he's made is so clear. He said, I'll work all things together for the good of those who love me and are called according to my purpose. So when it's all falling apart, it's actually falling into place.
And so we have to. We have to place our hope in that. Is that God, he doesn't change. He doesn't fail. I was just reading. I didn't bring my Bible in here with me, but. But I was just reading in Exodus, and I think it might have been Exodus 13 or. No, it might have been Exodus 3 or 6, I don't know. But it was early in Exodus, and the. The Israelites, you know, they had just come out of Egypt, and the Bible says that the Lord took them the long way around the wilderness, around the desert. And it said, because he had said if the Philistines were to attack them, that they would lose heart and want to go back to Egypt. And so he took them the long way because God knew something that they didn't know. And what's funny is the very next verse says they came out of Egypt ready for battle.
So they thought they were ready for battle. God took them the long way because he knew they weren't. Yeah. And so I. I think that sometimes what we see happening around us, it. It. It scares us and it worries us. But God is always in control and we bear his name. So he's not ever going to let us, you know, look bad, because if we look bad, he looks bad. So that's where I take my hope well.
[00:47:56] Speaker B: And it goes back to what you said earlier, too, of. There are so many things trying to get us angry and to take our. Our eyes, our attention, our effort, our energy there, and we just have to keep. Keep our eyes back on.
[00:48:06] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:48:07] Speaker B: Let those things fall away. Last question for you, Nona, because the podcast is called Becoming Church. How can the people listening become the church to the people around them?
[00:48:16] Speaker A: Oh, man. I think in this environment, I have had conversations with so many people who either are atheist or agnostic or are not believers, and they have been so disheartened by what they have seen.
People who bear the name of Christ, do and say.
And I think the best way for us to become the church is to go back to the word of God and discover rediscover who Jesus is, who Jesus was. How did he respond in times of literal persecution and so many times what we call persecution here, especially in the US that is not persecution there. There are there.
Our rights are not being compromised. Our life and our livelihood is not at stake. Right.
And so I think there are people watching the way that the. The church is showing up and they're saying, I don't want none of that.
So I think we. We have to rediscover who Jesus is. How did Jesus interact with the least of these? What did Jesus say about how we treat the least of these? What did Jesus say about that? Because that therein is our witness and Jesus said that. So I would say we got to rediscover Jesus. Yeah.
[00:49:38] Speaker B: Amen. That'll preach. That's a whole word right there. I love it.
[00:49:41] Speaker A: I love it.
[00:49:43] Speaker B: Nona, thank you. Talking to you has been such a delight. So I will link up all of your things in the show notes so people can follow you and read your other books and all of the things.
[00:49:52] Speaker A: Thank you. This has been such a pleasure. Thank you for having me. I really haven't here been this.
[00:50:01] Speaker B: That's what it's all about here, friends. It always goes back to Jesus. My prayer is that as you go through your week, you'll really believe that God is who God says he is and that your faith in what you can't see will reveal itself and what you can see, hear, experience, and know. If there's ever anything I can do to help you learn more about who you were created, created to be in Jesus, please reach out to me on my Instagram hristenmochler Young or join us at Mosaic Church, Charlotte live and online on Sunday mornings. Until next time, thanks so much for listening and keep becoming the church to the people around you.
