Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Mothler Young, and my guest today is Tim Whitaker, the founder and creative director of the New Evangelicals. You may know Tim from his coverage of the DNC or his coverage of Turning Point usa. He speaks a lot about the current intersection of faith and politics and the dangers of Christian nationalism. But he also speaks out against racism, greed, and the exclusion of queer people in the church. And this may be the most fun conversation that I've ever had when tackling some really hard topics. If you're confused about what it really means to take Jesus seriously, this episode is for you.
[00:00:58] Speaker A: Tim Whitaker. Welcome to the Becoming True Church podcast.
[00:01:01] Speaker B: Hello, Kristen. Thanks for having me. Means a lot.
[00:01:03] Speaker A: I'm thrilled to have you. Listen, I'm gonna automatically throw you into something unplanned and that you are unprepared for.
[00:01:10] Speaker B: Okay, that's fine.
[00:01:12] Speaker A: At the time of recording, it is the morning after Election Day.
[00:01:15] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:01:16] Speaker A: We can't not talk about this. We have to talk about this. We're so remiss. What are just right off the bat, like, what are you thinking and feeling?
[00:01:23] Speaker B: Definitely encouraging. I mean, I live in New Jersey and Trump had some major gains last election, so I really was unsure how it was going to go. I mean, Trump is not Trump. New Jersey is a historically blue state, but we've had Republican governors before, which, by the way, isn't necessarily a bad thing. But considering that Jack Citarelli was running on pretty much like Trump 2.0, it was concerning for me. But yeah, it was super encouraging to see a pretty clean sweep and to see Zoron.
That was like, yes, like, please. You know, so I'm, I'm hopeful, but there's still a lot of work to do. And one of my, one of my concerns is that I don't want people to think that we can let off the gas, but because now the hard part comes, which is a fighting back against the MAGA backlash that will happen because of this and trying to convince the Democratic Party to grow a freaking spine and to go into the. The direction of Mamdani. That's what we want. You know, we want affordable health care, we want livable wages. We want these things taken care of. And the Democrats, frankly, establishment Democrats, to be specific, have been really spineless. Overall, I applaud them. On, on, on the shutdown and not giving an inch on the, on the health care cuts, subsidy cuts. And stuff that's important, but it's, it's a little too, little too late for me. So I think we have a lot of work to still go personally.
[00:02:44] Speaker A: Well, and I think a lot of people are saying that too. They're saying like the Democrats have not, the Democratic Party has not come together enough. We haven't been cohesive. We haven't had a plan, like, so maybe this is the beginning. We, we saw a lot of states, a lot of, you know, mayoral positions flip from red to blue. So yeah, maybe this is the beginning of a shift.
[00:03:03] Speaker B: Look, it turns out that Americans don't like being on. Yeah. I mean, maybe we don't like a president posting AI photos or videos of him taking a dump on American citizens that are peacefully protesting. Right.
[00:03:15] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:03:16] Speaker B: Yeah. So I think that's a big, a big part of it. I think that I'm just kind of over, you know, as I've been kind of going through the deconstruction process and going from a Christian nationalist, conservative view to then, you know, becoming like more, I guess, Democrat for lack of a better term or more progressive, you do start finding some of the bugs in that system as well. And frankly, and I, you're talking to someone who's at the DNC last year, I mean, I, I was at the Democratic National Convention. I was very underwhelmed with some of the policy talking points. I'm like, guys, this is not it, at least for me. And I just think it needs to be emphasized heavily that what we're asking for is not radical. We live in the world's wealthiest country with only 3% of the population and we can't get affordable health care done when every other developed nation can.
That's not a radical. Ask that at all. What's radical is that we allow people to go into health care debt and go bankrupt to get life saving care. That's what's radical. So, you know, our views are not crazy. They are very sane in 2025.
[00:04:19] Speaker A: Yeah, well, and I would say align with scripture for people that actually want to read the Bible, know the Bible, live out the things that Jesus taught. Like it's all kind of right there.
[00:04:29] Speaker B: Also something about, you know, heal the sick and you know, to feed, feed the hungry. Something that Jesus, it's kind of murky in the Greek, you know, it could be translated, you know, take food away from the hungry. But it's a real toss up, you know.
[00:04:41] Speaker A: Yeah, I love it.
Well, Tim, why don't you give our listeners people that may not be as Familiar with you, a background of like, what is your, what, what, what faith did you come from? How did you get to this place? Just kind of give us your story.
[00:04:53] Speaker B: Oh boy. Yeah, I'll try and make it succinct and if you want to unpack little threads, we can do that. Long story short, I grew up in the white evangelical complex that, that bubble that I'm sure a lot of your listeners are familiar with. I was homeschooled for nine years, went to a very small private school where I did graduate top five in my class out of six. So I was really happy about that.
[00:05:16] Speaker B: Not to brag, humble brag, you know.
[00:05:18] Speaker A: It'S a, hey, not last.
[00:05:19] Speaker B: Yeah, not last though. And you know, I, I, I, my earliest church memories, it was very like reformed leaning. So it was a hymns only, church piano, maybe a flute player. And as we got a new pastor in the church, he wanted to have like more modern, contemporary praise and worship. My dad used to be a rock and roller. He gave it all up for Jesus, but now he kind of had permission to bring back the guitar and he was thinking, well, how do we bring drums into a church where they're seen as worldly? And he thought, well, if my 11 year old son starts playing drums, who's going to get mad at him?
[00:05:53] Speaker A: He's 11, what are they going to say?
[00:05:56] Speaker B: So that's how I started playing drums in the church and that led me to become professional. Long, long story short. So I really got into music through the church. But yeah, I mean, I grew up deeply embedded in the white evangelical infrastructure. I mean, you name it, I've probably done it. I've led worship as a drummer, I've planted churches, I've done all the mission strips. I know what awana is, I know what VBS stands for. You know, I, I was one of the golden children, right, of the, of the movement. I even was a virgin on my wedding night. I mean, I really did all the things that I was told to do. So that's kind of my background.
And through a lot of different twists and turns, you know, I eventually kind of walked out of what I call as the basement of fundamentalist Christianity and discovered that, that there was an entire house above ground that I never knew existed of Christian thinking.
[00:06:42] Speaker A: Yeah. What was that like for you? Because I know it can be a very confusing and isolating and lonely experience. And it's like there's freedom, right? And a lot of people listening have experienced that. Like, oh my gosh, I didn't know. I was only Living in one room of this house.
[00:06:57] Speaker B: Right.
[00:06:58] Speaker A: So while it's freeing and exciting, it can also be terrifying. Do you remember, was there, like, a specific turning point?
[00:07:05] Speaker B: Well, it's. It's.
[00:07:08] Speaker B: It's complicated. Right? I mean, so. So that the term is deconstruction, right? There was this big explosion of people deconstructing their faith, and I didn't know what that was at the time. I think that it's kind of like death by a thousand paper cuts. I'm not sure about your story, Kristen, but for me, it was a lot of, like, moments growing up especially. Especially as I took my faith more seriously. Right. As I started praying the prayers, I was told to pray that God used me no matter the cost. I'll go wherever you want me. I'll give up anything you want for the sake of the kingdom. Right. As I took those prayers more seriously, I started just seeing things. I was like, that's weird. You know, I mean, like. Like, there. There they were all over the spectrum. Some were theological, like, hmm. And I. I grew up kind of Calvinist. So I was taught that, you know, God predestined people to either be saved or. Or that he would pass over them and leave them dead in their sins, to essentially burn forever. I thought, that's kind of interesting. Like, how can God be good and loving and all powerful, but set things up so he only chooses some people to be saved while the rest are going to burn in hell forever? And that's because God needs glory and justice. That math wasn't mathing for me. Right. But there's always a talking point. There's always an author that someone will point you to, to kind of help you understand how this works. So there were things like that in my life. There was also things more socially minded. Like, I didn't understand why we were always yelling at the gays. Now, I was not queer affirming, don't misunderstand me. I believe that the Bible was clear. But I was like, why are we singling out this particular sin?
[00:08:37] Speaker A: You know, the Bible tells us, rewarded for doing that.
[00:08:39] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that's part of it for sure.
But, like, I was asking myself, like, why in the church, aren't we talking about greed? Greed's all over the scripture. And, like, a lot of people are greedy or gluttony, right? So even early on, I was kind of having these thoughts.
And then, of course, I had this.
Without going too deep into details again, unless you want me to, but I want to bore you to death. I was part of this like very unique small group that wasn't really a church, but, but it wasn't a small group. It was kind of like an in between with like 30 something young adults that were my age and very hungry, very zealous for Christ and to be a good Christian. And we were able to really unpack what is church and what is what, what can church really look like. I took a missions trip for three months in Europe. I was in Germany, Finland and Belgium. And in Belgium I encountered a whole different church model. They met in small bars around Brussels. At the time I was like, I don't know, man, bars, alcohol, it was really unbiblical. Right. But I, I had to go. I mean, I couldn't go home.
And I discovered this different way of like church being small groups that met around the city of Brussels and would come together once a month, like an all church celebration of just community. And I also was given a book, I actually still have it somewhere on my shelf called Pagan Christianity.
Okay. It was written by Frank Viola. He's a big house church guy. And the point of the book is essentially to say that all of our modern church practices don't come from the New Testament, they come from pagan culture. So imagine 18 year old, radicalized for Christ. Tim wants the true gospel, right. Gets this book in his hand and is like, oh my God, it's all pagan. Like the, the, the, the megachurch structure is pagan. The pews are pagan, the steeple's pagan. And so, you know, I kind of got into this headspace again. Very conservative, evangelical for sure. I wasn't at all deconstructing, but I was kind of like this event centered church model that I've grown up in. It doesn't really feel like it's it. Like we need real community. We have to be really connected to each other. So I had this idea and then I had this place, it was called 11th Hour. This small group with 30 of us who wanted to try it. So we did and it was like really healthy. I mean, we were all young, you know, early 20s, mid-20s. But they were some of my closest friends and we were able to really experiment with what, with what community can look like in the body of Christ.
I say all that because there's a lot of different methods that kind of got me there.
[00:10:56] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:10:57] Speaker B: But the big one, of course, which is spoiler alert, trump. You know, that was, that was the one where there were all the cracks in the dam.
I can kind of plug the holes to make it work.
[00:11:08] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:11:08] Speaker B: That was when the Dam broke wide open. And I said, wait a second, guys. You're telling me that I had to be a virgin on my wedding night to please God, but the dude on the COVID of Playboy magazine bragging about sexually assaulting women is God's chosen candidate for presidency? And if I don't vote for this man, I'm suddenly the heretic here. Like, you got to be kidding me. That was the real beginning of, like, okay, something is terribly wrong in my tradition.
[00:11:34] Speaker A: And is that when you founded the New Evangelicals?
[00:11:36] Speaker B: No, no, no. I didn't start T and E until 2020. December of 2020.
So Trump comes on the scene in 2016. I have an amateur podcast with some friends.
[00:11:47] Speaker B: And we're talking about this. I'm like, guys, I don't understand.
It was kind of like the unholy trinity is what I call it. There were three things that happened in the past couple of years that were huge social movements. Right? Trump was one. Black Lives Matter was the other one.
[00:12:01] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:12:01] Speaker B: And then Covid. Right. So again, I want to be clear to your audience, like, everything that I've ever done to this day has been out of my allegiance to the way of Jesus. There was no moment where I was like, you know what? Screw it. I'm just going to be an atheist, and I want to be liberal now. That was never it. It was always like, I don't know, guys. You taught me the sexual ethic. That guy violates it. I can't vote for that. Right?
[00:12:23] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:12:24] Speaker B: I don't know, guys. You taught me that all human beings have dignity and worth. I just watched Ahmaud Arbery get gunned down on camera, and you're telling me somehow it was his fault, and you're also spreading lies about him being a criminal. I don't know, guys. We just watched George Floyd being murdered by a cop, suffocated to death, crying out for his mother, and you're retweeting Matt Walsh talking points that he was a criminal, so he kind of deserved it. Again, this. This doesn't jive with the worldview that you gave me. You taught me that Jesus loves the little children of the world. And now I'm arguing with my Sunday school teachers about not bombing kids in Gaza. Yeah, right. So those are kind of like, the elements. And then, of course, Covid, I'm watching my. My again, pastors. I know it's a plandemic. Like, is it really. Is it. Is it really a plan? Demic? Guys, Like, I don't know. Maybe it's just a Virus that, like, this has happened before in human history.
[00:13:13] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:13:13] Speaker B: And this was when I started cne. So do you know the name Sean Foyt?
[00:13:17] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:13:18] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:13:18] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:13:18] Speaker B: So again, I'm at this point, I'm a pretty accomplished drummer in my local church scene. I'm playing different churches. I'm pretty proficient. I love it. I'm a volunteer, but I'm all in. So I'm a worship guy. Like, I'm tapped into the worship scene and I'm sitting on my front porch. It had to be, I don't know, August or September of 2020. We just. We had our newborn. He was like four months old at this point. So it's Covid. We don't know how this thing spreads. We're still wiping down packages. You know, there's no vaccine, right? Yeah. We were all there. Right? We were all there. And I see this dude named Sean Foy. I'm like, oh, worship dude? And he's touring the US Saying, faith over fear. Masks are tyranny. This is deep state nanny state government stuff. And I'm like, again, not a liberal. I'm like, I don't know, Sean. I feel like wearing a mask during. During a global pandemic is kind of like the point of loving one's neighbor. You know, like, even if it wasn't as effective as we thought, we tried to stop the spread of a very contagious virus for which we had no known remedy.
[00:14:16] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:16] Speaker B: And he's like, no. Faith over fear. And that was the final moment where I was so frustrated with my.
Again, I had no clue. Where I had no clue about any of these terms yet. No clue about, you know, white supremacy, white. None of this Christian nationalism. Not in. Not in the world that I was occupying. But I thought to myself, I'm so tired of this evangelical thing. We need, like a new evangelical movement. Like, we need new evangelicals. And that's. That thought came into my brain. I'm like, you know what, Sam? You have a lot of crappy ideas. That's not a bad name. That's not a bad name. And so I thought, well, I. Someone has to have it. So I checked online and no one had it. So I was like, you know what? Let me just grab it for a rainy day.
I was really scared, honestly, just to even start the account on Instagram, because I was a no name volunteer drummer in New Jersey, specifically South Jersey, so there's. I have no connections to the greater world of evangelicalism. I'm not an ordained pastor, never was a pastor, no credentials, but I'm like, I'm going to swing the bat and just go for it.
And I did. And here we are five years later. It's crazy. Yeah. That's not the truth.
[00:15:18] Speaker A: It's. It has just blown up and grown and expanded so much. I did not realize.
So your. Our timelines actually kind of align a lot closer than I. I just. You're. You're so well known, and also you're so knowledgeable that I just assumed I was like, oh, you've been doing this for, like, so much longer than I have.
[00:15:38] Speaker B: But. No, no, we've.
[00:15:39] Speaker A: We're kind of on the same timeline here.
[00:15:40] Speaker B: I just got so hungry for, like, I have to understand what's going on, you know? You know, when you get into those headspaces where you're just like. You're a sponge. So I'm reading Jamar Tisby for the first time, Color of compromise. And then, of course, Look, I started tn December of 2020.
Insurrection happens a month later. Right. So. So I. I'm already primed for, like, something is wrong. When I saw the dang Christian flag that's being paraded around the Senate chambers, the same flag that I pledged allegiance to in my Awana program as a kid. Right. And then I saw the prayer to Jesus, thanking him for the opportunity to do what they did. Yeah. I was like, whoa, what is this? Where did it come from? And how did I not see it? That just sent me down the rabbit hole, you know, of just reading and interviewing. You know, the podcast started, so, yeah, there's a lot there, but that's kind of how it happened.
[00:16:28] Speaker A: Well, you said you just kind of, like, threw this in there as you were going, that you were. Started taking your faith more seriously. And I think that's what a lot of people miss. It's like, we are not deconstructing or reevaluating or reimagining because we want a different faith or a different Christianity. We're just actually taking seriously the things that we were taught when we were kids.
[00:16:50] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:50] Speaker A: It is the. What, like, what radicalized me. I just want to be like you.
[00:16:55] Speaker B: You did exactly. Exactly.
[00:16:57] Speaker A: The newsboys.
[00:16:58] Speaker B: Right, right, right. The red letters. You taught me Morning as my quiet time. Like, you guys radicalized me. You did. I. I think I'm more of a Christian than ever because of my. Of what I was told, you know, Same.
[00:17:10] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:17:11] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:17:11] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:17:11] Speaker B: I'm more committed.
[00:17:13] Speaker A: Would you still call yourself an evangelical?
[00:17:15] Speaker B: I mean, I. I would use the term just for the sake of letting. Letting the fundamentalists know that. That, that. That they. They don't own it. I love that. You know, like, hey, guess what? I'm a new evangelical. I'm queer affirming. I'm. I'm. I'm so progressive. I want universal healthcare for everyone, and I'm still an evangelical. You know, just. Yeah, boom. Nothing you can do about it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:17:34] Speaker A: I think I went through, I don't know, like, a month of, like. And I'm a pastor, mind you, but I went through, like, a month where I was like, I'm not calling myself a Christian because.
[00:17:41] Speaker B: Yep, I get that.
[00:17:42] Speaker A: Holy moly. And then I was like, what am I doing? Like, I can't. I'm gonna roll over and, like, let these extremists take it. No, absolutely not. We're gonna. I'm kind of what this is.
[00:17:50] Speaker B: I'm kind of in your head space there. And look, this is a. There's no right answer to this. Some people are like, look, I don't call myself a Christian anymore. And I totally get that. So this is. If, if you're that person, I'm not talking to you. I'm not trying to convince you, but personally, I. I am of the mind of like, no, now's the time to double down and to reclaim these terms. Like, they don't own the term biblical. They don't own the term gospel. They don't own the term Christian. They don't own the term, you know, salvation. They don't own these terms. And I feel like once you give up those terms, then they be. Then they own those terms. Right. And so I feel like, like, there's a real need for people who are like us, who were kind of maybe baptized in some of these waters to say, actually, I'm going to use that language, but have radically different meanings for how we're going to use it and what it means for our neighbors.
[00:18:35] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I want my kids and I want the next generation to know, hey, this is what this term actually means. This is what it means to follow Jesus and to be a Christian.
[00:18:43] Speaker B: Right, right. It's not. I mean, it's complicated, but also not complicated. Right. Like, you can just start by reading the red letters and doing that, and then we can go from there.
[00:18:51] Speaker A: Let me get it.
Well, Tim, besides the content that you post on tne, you also have a podcast with April a Joy. And you do all kinds of things. You put all kinds of good content out. How do you stay up to date with, like, the barrage of information that's Constantly coming like a fire hose.
[00:19:09] Speaker B: Oh, I feel like I don't.
I feel like I'm always. I mean, you know, I. I can scroll on Instagram and find and see five videos. I'm like, I can respond to all of these, you know?
[00:19:18] Speaker A: Right.
[00:19:18] Speaker B: And I think that's. You're a creator, too. I know that you make content and, you know, it's. You always feel like you're trying to catch up, like, oh, I'm late to this one. I should have caught this trend, you know, and there's. There's definitely. There's definitely a game that you have to learn and then also learn how to exit, because you will burn yourself out very quickly. Ask me how I know you can live and die by these algorithms that are now mediating our human connections via social media. Right. Like, there's a lot of factors at play.
Yeah. So I host two. So the New Evangelicals, which is now led by Melinda Hale. She's our executive director. I'm the founder and creative, like, director behind that. We have.
We're building a media network out. So we have three shows right now. We have the New Evangelicals podcast, which I currently host. That's like more theology, more guest oriented. The Tim and April show is our commentary on Christian nationalism, a little more lighthearted. And then we have Advocacy Hour, which is Melinda Hale and Rebecca Thomas, our board president. And they're interviewing people who are actually actively doing things, like working with unhoused people or more like. More like. Like social action.
So, yeah, I mean, it is. It can be a lot, especially when, like yesterday, right, We. We had this blue wave, okay. We had to pivot our show, which will go tomorrow as of this recording. We had to change the whole format because what we're going to talk about is kind of old news now. Right. So that's just part of. It's part of the grind sometimes.
[00:20:36] Speaker A: Well, I'm glad to hear. Just personally, I'm glad to hear you say that you feel like you're always trying to catch up, because I always am. Like, I missed it. I'm too late.
[00:20:43] Speaker B: I know, I know.
That is, you know, not to talk shop too much. I don't want to bore the audience, but there is something about content creators that I think a lot of us have these insecurities and we kind of feel like. Like we're all behind. I talked to quite a few, and they will tell you how burnt out they're feeling, how discouraged they feel. And these are people who are doing, like, tons of views, you know, People who have hundreds of thousands of followers. So there is an illusion of like, you think that people who are over there have it together and you're just kind of flying by the seat of your pants. I think the reality is most of us are flying by the seat of our pants trying to figure it out.
[00:21:15] Speaker A: Oh, excellent. I love it.
[00:21:17] Speaker B: Yeah, you're not alone.
[00:21:19] Speaker A: Well, and also I'm like, I have a full time job, which really content creating can be a full time job.
[00:21:25] Speaker B: Yeah, I've been, I've been full time now for three and a half years. It's a full time job. Yeah, for sure.
[00:21:31] Speaker A: Well, how do you decide, you know, as you're scrolling right, as you're seeing things come through, how do you decide who to trust? Like, do you have red flags and green flags in the Christian sphere that help you decide? Like, hey, this is a voice I'll listen to and this is a person that, like, grain of salt.
[00:21:45] Speaker B: Um, I mean, in what context? Like theologically, politically, culturally, Any of it.
[00:21:50] Speaker A: If you see, if you were to see somebody post something and you're like, oh, this is a trusted voice versus this person's sources might be a little wonky, a little skewed.
[00:21:59] Speaker B: You know, it's tough because I've been in this space for so long, I've, I kind of just developed like a sixth sense for like the BS meter, including, by the way, in democratic spaces too. There's been a lot of AI things that have been shared that I'm like, that's actually not true at all. And so I, I, I, the, the real problem now is AI is AI videos and like, knowing, is this real? Do this really happen? Did this person really say this?
But yeah, I mean, I, over time you just kind of learn like, okay, I trust this person's reporting. Or you know, how you learn how to, how to fact check things kind of quickly. Right. So, like, you know, I follow. What's his name? Aaron Parness. I think he's one. Yeah, I like Aaron. Sharon says. So my friend Monty Mader is really good with some of this stuff. But even then, you know, you always want to be able to, you have to develop your own sense of bs. Like that sounds almost too sensationalized. Like, yeah, I think Trump is terrible, but that sounds even extreme for him. I should double check this first. Like, what's the source? And then find the source. Yeah, I mean, because look, we don't, we don't want to play the propaganda game, right? Me and April and the tne, we try and give Things that are as fact based as possible, of course, with our commentary on them. But we're trying to give people some sense of like, look, we're not, we're not just trying to fear Monger. Right? I mean I grew up on talk radio, I grew up on Sean Hannity, rushed in ball, Glenn Beck. And I grew up being taught that like at any day the big bad Democrats were going to destroy America. Right. We're all still here.
So I don't want to be that person just like saying wild stuff that is just false or like half truth, but really spun heavily towards one direction. I really try and fact check all of my sources, but yeah, it's the more.
[00:23:32] Speaker B: On, on Instagram and short form in particular, that's, that's the hardest part because there's a lot of misinformation out there and right wing Media has a 10 year head start in that space and they really know how to utilize the 60 second reel to convince people of things that just are not fully happening the way, the way that they position them.
[00:23:50] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay.
Well, Tim, you, I mean you're in public ministry. Like it's content creating, it's online, it's podcast, it's social media, but it's public ministry, I would call it. Is there anything in particular that you do, like a specific practice keeps you kind of grounded and rooted in, hey, the words of Jesus. And this is like, this is the goal.
[00:24:10] Speaker B: I mean the words of Jesus are probably the biggest, honestly, you know, there's for me my. A core value of mine. And I. It's harder and harder these days, I'm not gonna lie. But a core value of mine is non dehumanization, even towards my enemies.
[00:24:21] Speaker A: That's so good.
[00:24:22] Speaker B: Yeah, it is. It's hard. It's hard when you see a president posting AI videos of him dumping feces on the American people. Right. It's really hard when you watch MAGA Agenda that has a great Gatsby party the day that they're cutting SNAP benefits for millions of people. Right. Like there's a certain kind of like righteous indignation, a certain kind of like prophetic, like just you just want to give it to them. Like it's not about the person necessarily. It's not about Trump or what he looks like, it's about what his actions are causing. Yeah, that's kind of how I separate those things. But I do think that we need a lot of Christians, in particular white Christians, in particular white men who are Christians to have a sense of just holy indignation. And righteous fury and to flip some tables over, frankly, I just think that we're here.
[00:25:06] Speaker A: And how are you hoping to encourage them to like make these shifts? Like when people consume your content, what is the, what is the hope? What is the goal? Do you want them to think differently? Do you want them to act differently? Like, what are you hoping that they'll do?
[00:25:18] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, that's one of the hardest things is like, who's the audience? Right? Because you have some people who are like, whatever you say, they just want to hear you kind of rant all day, which, that's Greg's. I like to rant. Then there are people who are maybe more moderate, who are kind of curious. You don't want to lose them by being too harsh. But also, I don't want to mince words anymore. I feel like one of the problems we have in American society is like this problem of what we call is both sides. That's just a, that's propaganda. We don't have a both sides problem in America. And I can prove it because all you have to do is say, who's the left wing version of Tucker Carlson?
Who is it? Who's the left wing version? What organization is the left wing version of Turning Point usa?
There is none. They don't exist.
Antifa is a bunch of no name people who hide in mass and there's maybe like 500 of them and they're not even organized like, you know, so like there's no equivalent here in terms of funding and stuff.
[00:26:11] Speaker A: Right.
[00:26:11] Speaker B: So I, I, I, I don't want to mince words, but I also don't want to lose people who might be persuaded to think about things differently. So it just kind of depends on the context. On the New Evangelicals podcast, it's a little bit different. It's more interview heavy, more curiosity. Tim and April's show is more like for our base. Like, guys, we see it too. You're not alone. This is crazy that we are here, right? This is crazy that these Christian nationalists who claim to stand on the whole Bible can just ignore the blatant commands to welcome the stranger. You are not crazy. You're not missing anything. So it just depends on the format and who we're trying to talk to.
[00:26:46] Speaker A: That's good. I'm sure you get those dms. I get them all the time of like, I thought I was the only one. I feel like I'm alone. That is the question or the phrase I get more often than I think anything else is I feel like I'M going crazy or I feel like I'm losing my mind as people just watch.
[00:27:01] Speaker B: Things that are going on every day. I mean, even I, I'm sure for you, Kristen too, on this side of the screen, right, you feel the same way. Like, am I like, and I felt this way in 2016. It hasn't gone away.
Every day you wonder how, how much worse can it get? And here we are where we're sending federal agents to smash car windows of pregnant women and dragging them out in the name of like immigration.
Like, guys, do you see how far we've drifted? And it's kind of weird that like my pastor or my former pastor can't see it. Like, dude, you're the one who's claiming to have biblical clarity here. You're the one who's claiming to be an expert on like being a follower of Jesus. How do you not see this and go, what the heck are we doing? Right? So that's why, like the new evangelicals, that's why we have tne Connect. It's our off, meta, off algorithm community space for people to kind of find some other like minded folks. We do free classes there, we do a book club there. It's a great resource. It's totally free for anyone who wants to join. There's no payment for anything. We're totally a paywall, free organization because we're a nonprofit. So we're trying to build those spaces for people because, yeah, like you, I felt alone in the beginning too. That's kind of why I started tne. I was like, you know, if you, I'm not sure if you saw my earlier stuff, but back in the day when it was just me, before we became a nonprofit, every day was like, is anyone else out there besides me? And it was like, no, I thought I was the only one. I'm like, good. I thought I was the only one, you know? So it was very much a mutual relationship, parasocial relationship between me and this audience that I was building, not knowing what the heck I was doing at the same time.
[00:28:31] Speaker A: Yeah. How has your practice of Christianity or whatever you want to call it, Tim, changed? Right? From like those early days and the things that you would say to now where you've got a whole non profit, like, how, how have you shifted? How has your practice shifted?
[00:28:46] Speaker B: I mean, I, I, I have shifted what it means to be a Christian. I don't, I don't val. I don't validate my Christianity by how long I read the Bible or like how much I felt the spirit Move I validated by, like, how. How much did I care about my neighbor today? What I. What did I advocate for today? What social changes are we looking for?
Look, is there a conversation to talk about the afterlife? For sure. But honestly, get in line. Get in line. Like, you're not going to figure it out, dude. You're just not. The Christian tradition, the house of Christian thinking has tons of rooms with competing thoughts about what happens when we die and how you get there. So while you might think that you have the corner on true salvation because your little fundamentalist sect told you so, not only is that wishful thinking, it's a waste of your time. Because guess what? The person in Philly who got their SNAP benefits cut does not give a flying crap about your soteriology. They don't care if you're a Calvinist or an Arminius. They don't care if you're a biblical inerratus or not. They don't care. They just do not care. They care about the fact that they don't know where they're going to get their groceries from to feed their children. So I just think about it more like that, you know, I'm not sure if you're familiar with Soren Kierkegaard. He's like a philosopher from back in the day. I know very little about him. But Aaron Simmons, who's a great, like, expert on him, he told me something that Kierkegaard kind of posed that always stuck with me. He said, who's the real Christian? The person who might not profess the right beliefs but follows the teachings of Jesus, or the person who professes the right beliefs but doesn't follow the teachings of Jesus.
I'm like, dang, that, That's. Yeah. And I think about. I think it's Matthew 7. Many will say, lord, Lord, do we not do these things in your name? He'll say, only those who do the will of the Father will enter the kingdom. Like, I. I don't know, man. I'm more convinced of, like, the actions speak louder, louder than the words. And there's like, this cheap grace, this, you know, D.J. bonhoeffer idea, right, of just a cheap grace that I think is in white evangelicalism, where if you say the right words and have the right posture, you're in. Hence Charlie Kirk's funeral. People can worship and then celebrate a president who says, I hate my opponents. They see no.
No problem with that. I just think that's a really cheap Christianity that ultimately serves itself.
[00:30:48] Speaker A: Yeah, well. And, Tim, you have kind of leaned in to, I would say, that kind of Christianity that maybe aligns with that quote. Right.
I believe that you debated.
Was it Ali Beth Stuckey? I'm like, do I need to keep out her name? Do I keep her name in or do I take out her name?
[00:31:04] Speaker B: On Jubilee? On Jubilee.
[00:31:05] Speaker A: What I'm saying is you don't shy away from these conversations. Right. So, like, you must have gotten to a place where you're so confident in living out the things that you're saying that you are willing to publicly debate the people who maybe say the things but don't live them out.
[00:31:21] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I have actually, right here. This is Elisa Childer's book and Tim Barnett's book, the. The Deconstruction of Christianity. What it is, why it's destructive, and how to respond. I mean, there's all these tabs. I went through the whole thing. I've invited Tim Barnett and Alisa Childers on the podcast many times. They won't come on.
[00:31:37] Speaker A: I.
[00:31:39] Speaker B: Look, I, I don't like debates necessarily. I even. I really debated, no pun intended, going on Jubilee to talk to Ali Stuckey. I had a lot of people I talked to. I really weighed out if I should do it or not. I'm just really curious. Like, I want to know how they, how they see the world. Like, how do you rationalize some of these views that you have? And also I think that some of your takes, like in this book, Elisa, are just not good. And I have questions about it. Right. So it's not about trying to win an argument. It's more about help me understand what you're seeing. Because I grew up and believe what you did for a long time. But now I can't imagine how I used to believe that because it just seems so untenable. So it's more of that than, you know, debating. Now, if it's a Christian nationalist like William Wolf or something, absolutely. I will debate you. And I want to tear you a new one. I really do. Because again, your positions are just. Are, again, so untenable. But for when it comes to people who are like, you know, the Elise's or even the Allies, I just have questions.
[00:32:32] Speaker A: Yeah, well, you. You use the word curiosity, which I think is so key.
Even John Fugal saying, who I had on last month, said he was like, you know, these, the people are counting on you not knowing scripture. They don't really know scripture and they're counting on you not knowing scripture either. And so like, a debate is the last thing that I ever want to do that terrifies me. But I like watching them to an extent, because I now can watch for, oh, somebody brings up something scriptural, and then there is no actual argument back to it. It's just like talking points. And I can start to recognize, oh, well, this is.
[00:33:07] Speaker B: They.
[00:33:07] Speaker A: They don't actually know Scripture. They can't actually explain where this is in the Bible, even though they're using the Bible, like, as rationale for whatever the thing is.
[00:33:17] Speaker B: Yeah.
One of the hardest parts, I think, especially with the Ali debate, which, you know, it's Jubilee, so you only have like a couple of minutes and then you get voted out of the circle. It's this thing called surrounded. And one of the hardest parts is that we just see the Bible so fundamentally differently. Right. And you have to unpack those presuppositions before you can even get to the main question at hand. Like, one of Ali's claims was the Bible says that marriage is only between one man and one woman. And I got up and I said to Alvi, well, Lamech takes two wives.
So the Bible says that that could be marriage too. And her point was, well, that's. That's a descriptive point, not prescriptive. But that's. That doesn't matter. The Bible still says that's what happened, you know, and so you. You need time to unpack that little pivot from like, well, the Bible says to. Well, the Bible prescribes. Those are different questions entirely. And by the way, you know, according to.
Was it Samuel when he's prophesying on behalf of God to David, God gave David his wives. So again, I could say God prescribes multiple wives to David at least. Right?
[00:34:25] Speaker A: Yeah, but.
[00:34:26] Speaker B: But you can't get into that nitty gritty in two and a half minutes. So, like, these, these debates, the. The trick is, once you start engaging on their terms of how they use the Bible, you're gonna lose because they're just gonna weave, well, Genesis, well, Romans well, First Corinthians, well, hold on. All of those books were written at different periods, at different times, different audiences, by different people with different purposes.
Yeah. It's really unfair for you to take them and cherry pick them and kind of weave this narrative, you know, that is, I think, arguably unfaithful to, like, the theme of Scripture. But we can't unpack all that in two minutes.
[00:35:01] Speaker A: It sounds like you're saying a lot of things while you're really saying nothing.
[00:35:03] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:35:04] Speaker A: Happening.
[00:35:05] Speaker B: Exactly. And again, you could do the same logic of, like, all the parts about greed but they'll explain that away. Right. And so, like, so that, that's the thing is, like, once you engage on their terms, you're not going to be able to win because you're. Your. Your. Your terms are faulty to begin with.
[00:35:21] Speaker A: If somebody's listening, Tim, and they're like, wait, maybe I do do this. Maybe I just kind of like throw Bible bombs at people and cherry pick Scriptures, how would you encourage them to start actually reading the Bible in a way that they understand it more like what it actually says?
[00:35:36] Speaker B: Look, let's be really clear. We all pick and choose what we listen to in the Bible. Everyone does this. I mean, Scott McKnight's book the Blue Parakeet will tell you this. We all do it. The Bible interpretation is complicated. And depending on the tradition you're a part of the time in history you were born and your cultural context, you're gonna have a very different view of how you do that. For example, most people don't realize that Martin Luther, the father of the Protestant Reformation, said that people who use birth control are worse than those who commit incest does. And he used Genesis. I think it's Genesis 4, where Onan spills his seed as proof.
[00:36:07] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:36:07] Speaker B: Does anyone think about that today the same way? Probably not. Even though it's in the Bible and he interpreted the Bible that way, we have reasons why we wouldn't do that anymore. Right. So we have to just get comfortable with the fact that the Bible is not an objective, moral, you know, basic instructions before leaving earth book.
That's not what it is.
Right. It's complicated. There's wisdom. There's things you don't want to do. There's arbitrary laws written to people in a certain time and space that have no bearing on our life today. There's letters to the early church. We don't know who wrote some of them. Right. Like. And also, it's only half of the conversation. You only have one side of the phone call. So you know this. The sooner we can just be more honest about the complicated and oftentimes contradictory collection of texts we have that we call the Bible.
[00:36:53] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:36:54] Speaker B: And how the Christian tradition has fought over how to interpret it, what books to put in it, et cetera, the more we can take a more, I think, nuanced approach and not rely solely on the Bible to be our moral foundation. Because once you do that, you're in a lot of trouble.
[00:37:08] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:37:09] Speaker B: Because what parts do you pick and choose? William Wolf, a Christian nationalist, or Joshua Haynes thinks that slavery might be able to be regulated in a Christian nation. Because the Bible regulates slavery. He's not wrong, by the way. The Bible does regulate slavery.
I just say, we're not going to do that. When Paul says, slaves obey your masters, I go, no, don't listen to Paul. Right. But they say, well, it's in the Bible and that's our moral foundation. So how do we rationalize why slavery could be justified in a society in the future? That's the difference.
[00:37:35] Speaker A: Yeah. As you're learning, Tim, as you're like continuing to learn and grow, have you ever gotten anything wrong, like publicly that. And then you've had to either redact it or go like, oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Now I see this differently.
[00:37:47] Speaker B: I've never got anything wrong. Kristen. Kristen, I, I have moved from one fundamentalism to the, to the other, you know, fallible at this point.
Yes. I mean, there are definitely things I, I, one, one that sticks out because me and this person actually still talk Today. I, I, I, I critiqued a reel of a megachurch pastor.
[00:38:08] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:38:08] Speaker B: And I went pretty hard at him and he DM me. He's like, hey, man, I really think you missed the entire point of what we're trying to say. I think it's a really uncharitable take.
Would you consider taking it down? I said, well, if you'll talk to me, I will take it down so I can hear more context. And we hop on the phone, talked. He was super cordial. And yeah, I was like, yep, I missed it. Took it down. Real was gone. There have been, there was another time.
Okay. I don't think I've ever shared this story publicly before. So, yeah, here you go. This is true, by the way. Context. I attend Turning Point USA's America Fest every single year. This is their big Christian national. Yeah. I do an hour long recap on YouTube about it. So if people go to the Evangelicals YouTube channel right now, they can find three different years of me going to this massive Christian nationalist rally and doing a big deep dive on it.
[00:38:55] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:38:56] Speaker B: I'm able to go because I have been friendly with some of the organizers at Turning Point USA who make the event possible. They know who I am, they know why I'm going, they know I'm going to critique it, but I'm there in good faith. This is all context. This is very important.
[00:39:07] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:39:08] Speaker B: One of the people that I was relationally close to, you know, appropriately, was someone who was a pretty big, I'll just say he, he, he's on the, he's on the Charlie Kirk podcast today. Like, if you go on the show, you'll see him talking. He's. He's a pretty big name. And him and I got drinks one time after a pastor summit that I was at with him, and we had. We connected, even though we didn't get. We didn't agree.
So all that in the back.
I was at Turning Point America Fest.
Was it this past year, maybe two years ago now? It was two years ago. It was before Trump got elected.
And Steve Bannon was on the main stage. Okay, now, Steve Bannon, for your audience. Not a great guy. I'll just. I'll leave it there. And he is talking about Nikki Haley. This is when the primaries were happening. And he says on stage that Nikki Haley is as ambitious as Lucifer. And the crowd's, like, cheering it on. And then he says, and Nikki Haley wants to be vice president. And the crowd booze, you know, boo. Because she's like an establishment gopr. And someone in the crowd yells, tucker. As in Tucker Carlson thinking. Because at that point, they were teasing an idea of him maybe running as vp. Okay, yeah. Now it's a big room. So I thought that he. That. That she said F her. And Steve Bannon also thought that she said F her. So the crowd starts chanting this, and he's, like, cheering it on. He even says, this is not a PG crowd. I'm like, oh, my gosh. I'm. I'm live in this moment. So I make a real. I'm like, you're not going. What just happened? And I share the clip, right? And it starts taking off and going viral. Now, listen, you know, Kristen, when a real goes off, it goes viral. You're like, oh, finally. I finally. Finally one took off. Right? I got the moment right. So you're refreshing every few minutes to see how many likes it gets. And that's. And you're. You're kind of judging based on how many likes it grows, how good it's going to do, right? Yeah, totally. Okay. This is like such insider baseball. So all this happens, and I get a call from this guy at Turning Point.
He's like, hey, man, I just saw your reel. That's not what happened. The crowd yelled, tucker, not eff her. And I'm like, I don't know, man. So I listened back and I listened, and I'm like, oh, no, he's right. This lady yelled tucker. Now, I could have kept the real up because Steve Bannon thought she said effort.
[00:41:23] Speaker A: Yeah, sure, right.
[00:41:24] Speaker B: But for the sake of being good faith and keeping that relationship Open and letting Turning Point usa. No, I'm not here to spread false information.
[00:41:31] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:41:32] Speaker B: I took it down, okay? I took it down. I was like, hey, man, no worries.
I'm taking it down. It's down. And I apologize. I said, I'm so sorry. I should have listened more closely. That was not my intent. I'm not here to spread false information. He thanked me for it and we moved on. So, yes, I definitely have had times in my life where even when a viral reel is skyrocketing, I gotta hit that delete button and cry while doing it. Right?
[00:41:54] Speaker A: Like, listen, that's how. That is how you get an audience to trust you. That is how you get a following and followership or community or whatever you want to call it. A people that trust your voice because they go, oh, hey, Tim, sometimes he makes mistakes. Kristin, Sometimes she says wacky things, but she comes back to it.
[00:42:12] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I've. I've shared false tweets before. I've shared things that, like, I, upon further thinking about it, wasn't accurate. I've had to delete it. You have to do it. I mean, look, I don't like, I don't like doing it doesn't feel good. But you have to. You have to.
[00:42:25] Speaker A: Have you ever gotten feedback from somebody that actually changed what you thought on a topic, like a DM or feedback from anything that you were like, let me think about this differently.
[00:42:33] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, I mean, I have.
[00:42:36] Speaker B: Yeah. Mostly from black women.
They're the ones who have spoken into my life the most. I'm like, yeah, I should have trusted you in the beginning. So, I mean, it's funny, you have all these wild stories that you don't think about until someone asks, right? So I was back on. Back in the early days of tne, before we were just becoming a non profit. It was really just me with a camera at this point on Instagram. And I was doing this thing where I would go live and invite anyone on to come on and talk to me.
And.
And there was someone who I became kind of friendly with through the dms. Now we're actually very good friends. Today we're in a group chat with me and my wife and another person I've.
We went out to her baby shower in Seattle, that kind of thing. But this was still in the beginning stages, right? This is a. She was a black woman and I was still. Look, I'm still new, but I was like, really green. That like, I was just not aware of so many things and dynamics and just like I learned in my life that if you should trust anyone, black women are usually the people to trust because they usually are way ahead of the curve on so many things. Right. I learned that, but I didn't know it then.
And this person, DMs me, is like, hey, I would. I would. I would be really careful with. With you doing this live stuff, because if you get someone on that's like, you know, the wrong kind of person, they can go south really quick. And I just had someone on about COVID who was like a Hispanic woman, talking about how Covet was planned. It was really awkward. Said I felt we're critiquing her because of who she was, but also she was wrong. And so. And so she's like, yeah, just be careful with that. It was kind of a bad look. I'm like, yeah, yeah, no problem. I didn't listen.
So I go live again. I do the guest thing. I get a guy on, and essentially he gets to a point where he goes, look, Hitler was bad, but. And I'm like, oh, no. I'm live on Instagram. And this person was watching. She was watching the live. And I'm just, like, slithering into my chair. I'm like, this.
And so. So I. I find a way to land that plane without it getting wild. And she DMs me. I'm like, I am so. I was like, you're right. You're so right. I need to stop doing this because it is too dangerous. But with who you can have on these lives and what they might. Or might. Yeah, because you have no idea. So that. That's one example among many that I could give you of times that I've gotten feedback from people where I'm like, yeah, I should have seen this. And I didn't see this. I did not see it. Yeah, for sure. For sure. I. I'm not. It's weird, right? Like, I'm sure for you, too, there are some things that you're really aware of and sharp on, then things where you're like, how did I miss this? Until someone else kind of brings it up. That's me, for sure. Yeah.
[00:44:58] Speaker A: Well, and for me, it's like, what have I. What have I spent the time studying and reading about and educating myself on? What have I actually experienced either if not in my own life, with people that I love and care about versus the things that, like, I just haven't breached those subjects yet.
[00:45:13] Speaker B: Exactly. That's. I think that that. That's the hard, not hardest part. That was the challenge early on for me with TNE is I realized really quickly that I was another white man with this platform that was exploding.
[00:45:25] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:45:25] Speaker B: I had no clue what I was doing. And it was like, oh, I don't want to become another, like, white man. Just like, saying, I'm not qualified to say. That's probably why I started reading so much and started really researching and trying to get as many experts on the podcast as soon as possible. Because I was like, look, I don't know what I'm doing. We need other voices to speak into this. So that. That was an early learn too with TNE was like, I. We can't repeat the cycle of another white dude essentially doing mega church online and. And put. Yeah. And like, making himself like the new expert about everything.
[00:45:54] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:45:55] Speaker B: It's just not fair.
[00:45:56] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, you speak a lot about politics and justice with faith, Tim, which I think for people that have maybe come out of a more, you know, traditional or evangelical or conservative model of Christianity is hard. I think that's one of those places we've been told to fear and to stay away from. And it's dangerous and it's, you know, full of all the sinners.
So if somebody is listening and they are, like, I really wanted to start to navigate better, like, my faith with culture and things that are actually happening. What advice would you give them?
[00:46:26] Speaker B: Read black liberation theology.
[00:46:28] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:46:29] Speaker B: Read some James Cone. Okay. Read black theology and black power. Read the cross and lynching tree. Look up Reverend Otis Moss iii. Listen to some of his sermons. Right.
Like, I totally understand if you're coming out of white evangelicalism. You've been taught one of two things, most likely even either you just preach the gospel and stay out of politics. Right. Or you're a Christian nationalist, essentially. Right. And so I get how someone coming out of this can be really skittish about engaging political language again, because you don't want to become everything that, that, that. That you think is so problematic. Yeah, I understand that completely. The good news is that there's been a tradition in America that predates you and me that's been going on that has been incredibly political and social justice oriented and committed to Jesus. It's called the black liberation tradition, and it has a lot, a lot of grounding and foundation and, like, a lot of rich soil that you can plant some seeds in to grow from and think about how to engage politics differently. It's. See, the difference is Christian nationalists, they want a white Christian nation with exclusively Christian claims. Right. Like Doug Wilson, for example, wants Christ is Lord in Our Constitution. Yeah, okay, That's Christian nationalism. It's not. Christian nationalism is not.
I'm political and I'm a Christian, and I have views that I want enacted in society. That's not Christian nationalism. Christian nationalism is a very particular set of beliefs that believe in power and control over others in the name of the white Christian God.
[00:47:52] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:47:52] Speaker B: Black liberation, broadly speaking, is the opposite it's looking for. How do we. How do we hear from the voices of the oppressed, in particular the black experience, which has been under the boot of empire for so long in this country? And how do we identify Christ with the suffering? Right. I mean, James cone in the Cross in the Lynching Tree essentially says that the spectacle of the cross is humiliation and ridicule. Right? It's God incarnate being merciful. Merciful, mercilessly and unjustly beaten and killed. Just like how black bodies are lynched in America. And you go, whoa, I've never thought about identifying those two things together. Right. So he's looking at it as God, as the oppressed. And then what? What can the oppressed teach us about how we fight for liberation for all, including our MAGA neighbor, by the way. Right? You and I, we want affordable healthcare for our MAGA neighbor. We want SNAP benefits for our MAGA neighbor. So the whole perspective and ideology is just so different. But you won't understand that unless you start reading from those people and listening to those sermons. So I recommend starting there and listening.
[00:48:50] Speaker A: With curiosity, not listening. Going in, ready to, like, yeah, argue it even in your own mind, to get defensive. We can't take those. In a sense, we have to take those things personally because we have to understand the parts that we've played and being complicit or what we.
[00:49:03] Speaker B: 100%.
[00:49:05] Speaker A: But we also can't go in defensive and ready to argue or like, we'll never learn anything.
[00:49:09] Speaker B: Look, you're totally right, Kristen. I mean, I see my work as my big repentance project, frankly. You know, like, I've been taught to turn and go the other way. That's a Christian thing. I had wrong beliefs about black people in this country or about queer people, about, you know, politics. And I want to repent and go the other way. If people are out there and you're curious, think about it like this. Here's the image I have you back to that house analogy, right? Okay. You're in this basement. It's dark, it's dim. You finally get above ground and you're like, whoa, did not realize how big this Christian Thing was Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Protestant, all these different rooms. Think about it like that. And then just think about yourself peeking into the room of Black Liberation Theology. Like, just go in, observe, look around. How was this built? How does it function? What's the furniture look like? Just take it in. And you don't have. You don't have to believe it. You don't. That's the nice thing. You can walk out and say, you know what? I learned a few things that was really helpful, but I'm not sure if that's where I want to land entirely. Let me explore a different room of the Christian tradition. I mean, there's a lifetime supply of exploring the rooms. Right. So that. That mentality has really helped me. Even when I. When I disagree with something. Right. When I'm like, ooh, that feels icky, I still go, well, let me just approach this from curiosity. Let me examine it, and let me actually critically think to myself, well, is there anything here? And if there's not, that's fine. That's fine. I don't have to take it with me into the next room. But maybe there's something I can learn.
[00:50:26] Speaker A: From and you can at least acknowledge that that room exists.
[00:50:30] Speaker B: Totally still part of it. Because it does, right? Yeah. I mean, I'm a pretty strong proponent for it. So I would argue that Black Liberation theology is, like, key at this point, but. But it's a room in the house for sure.
[00:50:41] Speaker A: Yeah. Tim, last question for you, because the podcast is called Becoming Church. How can the listeners become the church to the people around them?
[00:50:49] Speaker B: I mean, love your neighbor as yourself.
Do you want to go hungry? Okay, then don't let your neighbor go hungry.
[00:50:55] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:50:55] Speaker B: Do you want to be treated with love, dignity, and respect? Okay. Treat your Muslim neighbor that way, your atheist neighbor that way, your MAGA neighbor that way. Treat your neighbor that way. I don't want to oversimplify things. I know things can get very complicated, and we can talk about how do we organize as churches and leadership. That's all good stuff that we should be talking about. But for me, where I am, in my season, so to speak, you know, of life, I'm like, dude, it's not that. It's not that hard. Love God and love your neighbor, and the way you love God is by how you love your neighbor. These things are intertwined, in my opinion. They're not separate. Right. So when you love your queer neighbor, you're loving God. When you love your Muslim neighbor, you're loving God. That's how it works for me.
[00:51:36] Speaker A: Yeah. Amen. They'll preach at the whole sermon right there. And that. That last.
[00:51:40] Speaker B: Amen. And for my second point.
[00:51:45] Speaker A: And then you need a prop.
[00:51:46] Speaker B: Yeah, of course, of course. Yeah. First, a nice, funny comedic story to lighten the mood.
[00:51:53] Speaker A: Listen, don't tell people the formula, Tim. Don't let it be behind the curtain.
[00:51:58] Speaker B: Love it.
[00:51:59] Speaker A: Well, thank you so much for being here. Listen, we're going to link up your whole community and a lot of the resources that you mentioned so people can follow you if they're not already. But this has been so great. Thank you so much.
[00:52:08] Speaker B: Thanks for having me.
[00:52:14] Speaker A: Okay, here's the challenging question that I'll be turning over this week. Then I'll extend it to you as well. Who would I prefer to dehumanize because it's easier than loving them? And how is being unloving to them keeping me from loving God more?
[00:52:28] Speaker B: Oof. Right?
[00:52:29] Speaker A: This is a hard one. I love it when the Holy Spirit convicts me, like right here on my own show. But that's why we're in this together. Together. To remind ourselves of what's true and to encourage each other to keep learning and growing. So who else do you know that would benefit from conversations like this? Yessica recently said, this podcast lit a fire in me that was lost for a few years because I lost faith in, quote, unquote, my people. This is the type of show I was missing. Thank you. I can't wait to share. We need more people to listen. Listen. I talk about this show, all of them, the time, but it means a lot more when it's coming from you as listeners. So whose light has dimmed? Who needs to know they're not alone? Who needs to hear from different kinds of Christians instead of maybe the echo chamber that they may be experiencing?
Share this podcast with them and let them know that you're in it with them, too. Until next time, thanks for listening and keep becoming the church to the people around you.
[00:53:27] Speaker B: Sam.
