What Do You Do Beyond Belief? with Rev Gerlyn Henry

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:10] Speaker B: Asking the question, what do I do when my faith changes and people are watching and it's going to come with some backlash. I'm Kristen Mockler Young, and this is Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. And today's episode with Reverend Gerlyn Henry is about the cost of changing your mind and how following Jesus can move you to do things, care about things, and believe in things that you never thought you could or maybe even were taught not to. If you feel like we're talking about you in this conversation because your faith doesn't quite fit anymore, but you don't know how to find what's next, or you've deconstructed, but you still feel a pull toward Jesus and his compassion for the world. I wrote a book for you. It's called the Other side of Certainty. How to Follow Jesus When Easy Answers no Longer Work. And it is my invitation for you to see beyond the rigid black and white religion that you might have been presented with. It will help you find God already existing and moving in unexpected places and guide you as you navigate your questions, doubts, fears, and even regrets. It's available right now for pre order and limited space for a launch team will be coming soon. So follow along with me. Hristenmuchler Young on social media and. And you can find the link in the show notes. All right. Reverend Gerlyn Henry, welcome to Becoming Church. [00:01:38] Speaker A: Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here. Love the work you guys are doing. Yes, me too. [00:01:43] Speaker B: So for the people that may not be familiar with you yet, I want you to give us a little bit of background. So, like, what did you want to be when you grew up or did you always know that you wanted to be in ministry? [00:01:55] Speaker A: So when I was, like, younger, I wanted to be a lawyer. Right? I loved a good argument, especially with my parents. And they always said, wow, you're such a good arguer. And so I wanted to be a lawyer. I wanted to be an athlete for a while because I thought, like, I could definitely beat the last Olympic runner because we would watch the Olympics as, like, a family. And I always thought I could beat the last person. And then, like, I think the next big shift was to be an engineer. And then in our eighth grade class, and I think many people in eighth grade do this. You have to, like, build a bridge and, like, have to, like, hold weight on the bridge. Anyway, my bridge collapsed with, like, the very first thing that the teacher put on it. And I remember thinking, okay, this isn't for me. I'm not going to make it as an engineer. And then a couple years later, it was, I think, first year of high school, where I felt, like, the call to ministry. I was 15 years old at the time. Okay. [00:02:45] Speaker B: And that evolved. [00:02:47] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Ah. So, like, I was at, like, this more evangelical church, like, very charismatic, and the pastor was talking about, like, how you can die for. By accident. You can die by accident, but if you're gonna live for something, you actually have to make the choice. And it was in that season in, like, the 2000s, where, like, dying for Christ was like, the. The MO is what you all strive to do. [00:03:10] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:03:10] Speaker A: But then when he said that, it really, like, struck me. I was like, oh, like, I don't necessarily want to die for God. I want to want to live for God. And that kind of took shape over the next few years. I did an undergrad in social work, and that really solidified that. Whatever ministry I do, it has to be with people and people who especially are on the margins. And, yeah, it was that little sermon at 14 that started the journey. [00:03:36] Speaker B: I love that. I actually started in college as a social work major, and then I went into education. I changed it after my first year. [00:03:45] Speaker A: Okay. [00:03:46] Speaker B: Which I'm not sure if I should have, but, I mean, obviously I got to where I needed to be, you know? But I definitely get that heart for people and you that comes through in everything that you do. So how long have you been a priest with the Anglican Church? [00:04:01] Speaker A: Ah, this is year five for me. I got ordained in Covid, and there was, like, an ordination that got. No way. [00:04:09] Speaker B: Yeah. I think it's 21 or 22. I don't know why I can't never remember what year it was. [00:04:16] Speaker A: Oh, I love that. So ours was in 2020, like, December 2020. I remember, like, I got ordained on the 5th, had my first, like, Eucharist on, like, the 20th, and got married on the. On the. No, I got married on the 5th, got ordained on the 20th. Yeah. Of December. [00:04:32] Speaker B: So much all at one time. [00:04:34] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Super. It was good. Were you doing another career before you came into ministry? Like, always. What were you doing right before? [00:04:43] Speaker B: I was. I was actually a kindergarten teacher for a long time. So, yeah. Taught kindergarten. And then my pastor tried to get me on staff. I've been with our church for 20 years. I helped launch us as a volunteer, and he tried to get me on staff multiple times, and it just never worked out until it Worked out. And so, yeah, then I got ordained after that, and God was like, hey, this is not just a career change for you. This is a. This is a new calling. This is a new chapter. You're supposed to be in ministry full time. And so here we are. [00:05:13] Speaker A: Wow, that's incredible. That's incredible. Kudos to you for answering that call. [00:05:17] Speaker B: Well, I did fight it for a little while. I'm not all that, but eventually I did. [00:05:24] Speaker A: Yes. I think fighting it, it, like, makes it all the more, like, authentic. So. [00:05:29] Speaker B: Okay, that's good to know. That's good to know. Well, what's your favorite part of being a priest? [00:05:36] Speaker A: I really love, like, watching it click for someone or even better, like, having, like, been part of their journey, and then suddenly, like, it just, like, makes sense. They're like, oh, this is what is forgiveness? Or this is why we eat together. And, like, I just. I love it. To be able to, like, journey with them through doubt and faith. And then, of course, doubt again. [00:05:58] Speaker B: Yes, yes. [00:05:59] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:00] Speaker B: That's an honest journey for sure. What's the most unpriestly thing that you do on the flip side? [00:06:07] Speaker A: I make mistakes. I think, like, it's like, it feels and sounds so, like, almost trite, but I make mistakes when it comes to, like, policy, because there's so many canons we absorb. I make liturgical mistakes. I remember, like, and this. This might be such a niche, but in the Anglican Church, we, like, face different directions for certain things. Right. And for the first, like, seven months, I was, like, reading the gospel, facing the wrong direction. And, like, my church never told me. And then at some point, someone did, and I was like, what? Like, I hurt people's feelings. I sometimes cry in my office, and one person walked in. I think people are, like, so used to experiencing their pastors as, like, putting up this front of competence. And, like, while I have competence, like, I'm very competent. I think, like, the number of mistakes that I own up to is, I think, the most unpriestly thing about me. [00:06:55] Speaker B: I think that makes you a great priest. And I can relate. I mean, I have had the thought multiple times where I'm like, oh, my gosh. I am either unknowingly or unintentionally part of someone's church hurt story. And that breaks my heart because I'm like, that's. That's hard, you know? And I know God will redeem it. I hope God will. I hope that they'll trust the church or people again. But that's. It is hard to sit back and be like in all my humanity, you know, we do, we. We make mistakes too, so. [00:07:25] Speaker A: Absolutely. Yeah. I think acknowledging it is just helpful. [00:07:29] Speaker B: Yeah, big time. And hopefully we'll open the door for other leaders, faith leaders, to walk in the same humility. Well, you mentioned your Anglican tradition, and so let's help people understand because we have a wide variety of listeners to this show. A lot of them don't even attend a church on a Sunday morning. This is their church, so welcome. But tell us a little bit about the Anglican tradition, how maybe it's different from like a non denominational, you know, church that I'm a part of. [00:07:59] Speaker A: Okay. So the Anglican Church at its heart is a way of being that holds together, like, things that don't always fit together. We call it like the middle way, where, like, opposites and polarizing ends can, like, find a place in the Anglican world. It's rooted in liturgy and the sacramental life and sacrament is taking ordinary things and using them for divine purposes. Right. Like we take water and use it for baptism and oil, like ordinary things of life, for healing. And for people, like, we often talk about it as like a both and tradition. And so, like, people who don't like that way of being kind of criticize Anglican world for that because they're like, oh, you accept everything. And in many ways, like, we make room for a lot. People can be on, like, anywhere on the spectrum of faith and doubt of like, left and right leaning and still find place because we really prioritize conversation and not like, certainty. I think it's one of the things I love about the church that you don't have to like, walk in and already believe something or already know God. And it's really powerful, I think, for me to be a part of a tradition that holds beauty and justice together. It's been a historical, like, justice oriented church. And the liturgy isn't just about, like reverence to God, but it's a call for us to be transformed and then go back out into the world. Every single liturgy ends with people of God, go into the faith, go into the world to love and serve God. And so it's like this, like, holding together of a number of things. That's. [00:09:32] Speaker B: So I'm like, I want to be Anglican. That sounds great. [00:09:36] Speaker A: Yes. And our outfits are amazing. We just love our regalia. [00:09:41] Speaker B: Yeah. Because it isn't determined like you, because you follow the calendar. Right. So it's like certain colors for certain times of the year. [00:09:47] Speaker A: And that's right. That's right. And right now we're In a season of white or, like, gold. So it's like the fanciest season of Easter. But, yeah, there's blue, red, pink, occasionally white. I can't think of what else I'm forgetting. [00:09:58] Speaker B: And at our church, it's like, well, who knows? I might show up in fringe. I might show up in ripped jeans. I might show up in, like, a sequin blazer. No one knows what to expect when they come to Mosaic, actually. [00:10:09] Speaker A: I love that. There's something so freeing and, like, authentic about that. [00:10:13] Speaker B: Yeah, well, that's what I love about our church, too, which is very similar. You know, we are non denominational and we are also not affiliated with other churches. Like, it's just us. And so we've got, you know, our levels of leadership and accountability and all that. But when it comes to deciding what we believe and how we believe it and what we disciple our people into, it seems very similar to the Anglican way, which is refreshing for me to hear, especially being in the American south, where there are a lot of churches are just like, you pick a side on anything. You know, you pick a side, and that's how you get your people and your money. It's harder to do it the way I think in this middle way like you were talking about. [00:10:54] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. But it's so much more rewarding. But. Yeah, so much more rewarding. But, like, there's, like. I think just the other day someone told me, like, or asked me, like, why do you think the church is failing? And I was telling them, like, my reasoning, and they in turn said, I think it's because you guys don't provide answers anymore. Interesting. So there's definitely a longing for a different way. It's just not this way. [00:11:19] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I mean, the. The desire for answers, the desire for certainty, like you mentioned, is. Is I think what a lot of us were rooted in. It was like, hey, this is what you put your faith in because it gives us. It's an easy answer. Right. It's a thing to cling to and be like, well, if I know this is true, then I don't have to worry about all the other things that I doubt or question. [00:11:39] Speaker A: Exactly, Exactly. [00:11:42] Speaker B: Well, your Instagram audience has grown tremendously recently, and so I'm curious if you remember the post that started bringing people to your account. [00:11:52] Speaker A: Yes. So, like, it's only been a few months. It's kind of crazy. So there is, like, one clear, clear post that's like, the winner, but there were these, like, two moments of growth. [00:12:01] Speaker B: Okay. [00:12:02] Speaker A: And the first one, so for like 11 years. I've been on Instagram since I was like a teenager. And for 11 years I've had between like 500 and 900 followers. Yeah, solid. Like, those were my people. And then I posted this video about how God has a preferential option for the poor. It was from TikTok. I shared it and, like, it got shared by like a couple of the bigger voices on Instagram. And that took me from like 900 to 10,000. Like, it was like a couple of days. And I was like, whoa, people actually care. That followed by Benjamin, like, Kramer's post about Christian nationalism. I just literally read what he wrote and that went from like 10 to 40. Like, I think I owe him a huge thing from a huge amount of love for my growth. Absolutely. And then I. It was summertime, I was about to go on vacation. I had just got like a bikini that I had altered because I had like, bought it at a thrift store. And this lady encounters me and she comes up and she says, you know, modesty is a virtue. After I told her that this is for me to go to the beach. And in turn I told her, would you rather prefer I go to a nude beach? And then she said, I'm never coming to your church. So I came home that day and I shared this story with like, TikTok and it just. It just takes off. And then I shared on Instagram and I go from like 40,000 to like 200,000. People just, like, found it so funny. A lot of people hated that. Like, I could dress like that. And so with like, the hate and the curiosity and the love, it just. That was the biggest. The biggest post. [00:13:40] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm giggling because I remember that story. I remember. I was like, I know. I was like, if she doesn't say the bathing suit, I'm going to bring it up because I know. [00:13:50] Speaker A: Absolutely. And that took me to like, People magazine and. Yeah, it was like, unexpected. This little story of, like, embarrassment. [00:14:00] Speaker B: Yes. [00:14:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:14:01] Speaker B: Well, I'm glad. Listen, God used it and I'm glad that he did because I think that you are saying really super important things on social media. And so I'm thrilled to death that there are more people listening and I want to talk a little bit more about, like, front facing, you know, public figures. But before we do that, I want to still ask you specifically, like, how do you, as your creating content, how do you maintain an impactful witness online when we're living in this cancel culture where people who don't agree with you, like that lady, are Just like, okay, well, I'm never coming to your church and I'm never coming back to your feet again. [00:14:36] Speaker A: Right. Okay. That's such a good question. Such a good question. I think, like, my audience, it's, like, formed by. I think this perspective is formed by the fact that, like, I work in a church and, like, people come and they either have faith, they don't have faith, or they kind of left the faith and are just coming back. And so my content kind of has that mind, that structure behind it. I talk about being, like, I don't know. I'm not that bothered about people who show up and are not interested or, like, decide to leave because people come to church on Sunday mornings and they spend almost the entire time sleeping. And then. Yet they are still, like, really faithful Christians. I still see them as, like, a part of. Part of who I am and part of the church. And so, like, I kind of hold that same view about people online that, like, most of my audience is, like, on the fringe of being faithful or are deep within it or have left. And so, like, the fact that they're listening, I'm so grateful for. And, like, I expect that those people will go and, like, impact the world. That's not really where I am, that the people on the fringes will have an impact. And, like, the second big thing I offer is that because my sense of what I think is my audience is so limited, I think about how the work that I do goes beyond or the witness that I bear goes beyond just the walls. I think I made a post once about safe injection sites and how I carry naloxone in my church for those who are experiencing an overdose and then ended up, like, on TV for something to talk about safe injection site closures and people who don't at all follow me don't even listen to my. My audience online ended up coming because they saw me on tv. And, like, the same thing with our food bank. We have, like, a food bank that I've been working at for years. Never really talked about it, but then CBC covered it for something, and then we received, like, thousands of dollars of donations and, like, thousands of followers. [00:16:32] Speaker B: Amazing. [00:16:32] Speaker A: I think, like, impactful witness is like, what do you do in the world beyond what you just believe. Yeah. [00:16:39] Speaker B: And that. I mean, truly, that's for everybody listening. Like, what do you do in the world beyond what you just believe? That doesn't have to be on social media. It can be in your communities. It can be in your neighborhoods. It can be. I mean, whatever that means to you personally? [00:16:53] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:16:55] Speaker B: Is there something, Derlin, and what I love, again, about your content is that you. I'm constantly trying to get my listeners to understand that we don't have to carry the burden of everything. Right? Like, we can care about all the things without feeling like we have to advocate for all of the things because we physically can't. We don't have enough time, we don't have enough energy. But I do see you covering a lot of different topics, which I think is so beautiful because you're helping to educate or at least, like, plant seeds with people for different things. Is there a topic that you wish you could speak more about, but you haven't yet for some reason? [00:17:29] Speaker A: Ah, you know, I try to process things, like, before I make content about it. And so, like, there are things that are, like, unsettled in me that I try not to address online. And, like, I think, though, I see that there's, like, a value, a gift in being able to just share honestly about what we believe. I fear that, like, my unprocessed opinions or, like, my uncensored world would do more harm than good. I can give you, like, one example because I think this is, like, so out there, and I've sat with it for, like, a year. So I have a neighbor that I like, really don't like. And for someone who talks about loving your neighbor so much, like, it's just. It's like this part of my heart that is, like, solid that cannot be penetrated by this man. Like, I just do not like him. And he hasn't done all that much to, like, upset me. He just cut down a tree that I really like that was kind of on my property, kind of on his property. Anyway, it's been years now of me loathing this man. And I've, like, mentioned it in some Bible studies. Like, and I remember this one time there was this, like, verse. There's this verse in The Bible, Psalm 137, talks about how the Israelis, like, Israelites took the heads of Babylonian babies and, like, dashed them on the rock. And there was this, like, author I read once, and I won't name her because I'm pretty sure I'm going to, like, misrepresent her. And she talked about how, like, there's some sort of, like, healing that comes with that traumatic language. But just by saying it, you eradicate the desire to do it and that in that process there's something holy. Okay. Because it's very unlikely that the Israelites actually did that to Babylonian babies. They didn't have enough power. They didn't have access. And so I was telling, like, this. So I recorded a video of me talking about how I wish I could, like, throw a rock on this man's car and how, like, then I referred it to, like, this Bible verse, and I had this full, like, reflection on it. And then I realized, like, no, this is just me being unjustly angry and, like, somebody's going to take this video to, like, hurt somebody else. [00:19:30] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:19:31] Speaker A: And so I pulled it off. And so I think, like, my own unhealed anger and trauma I wish I could talk about, but I don't. [00:19:38] Speaker B: Yeah, well, and I think that is, again, wise. I think, especially as, you know, ministry leaders, as ministers, we cannot. I remember telling a girl once, she was going through something and she was working on a sermon, and I said, hey, you cannot tell this story in your message because you are going up there and you are bleeding out and you're, like, slapping a band aid on it, but you are still bleeding out. Like, you have got to heal because you're going to just put your wounding all over the people in your congregation if you go up there with, like, you are not ready. You are not ready yet. So I think there's wisdom in that. [00:20:16] Speaker A: Yes. And I think that wisdom comes from, like, pastors. I think other, like, content creators don't necessarily, like, see that, because I think as soon as you are a pastor, that that role changes. Well, and. [00:20:27] Speaker B: And sometimes we have to learn it the hard way. [00:20:29] Speaker A: I know I did, you know, same [00:20:32] Speaker B: maybe, because I did that once. That's how I do. Yes. Luckily, in a small group, not a whole, you know, entire congregation. Well, there are. I want to talk about, you know, more people publicly talking about their faith. There are a lot of people, like you and me. Right. Who speak regularly and publicly about our faith because this is. We're faith leaders by vocation. And then there are other leaders, political or otherwise, whose roles are not rooted in faith, but they still make their beliefs quite public. And so I'm curious, like, what are your thoughts on public figures using their faith as talking points? [00:21:12] Speaker A: I definitely have an opinion about this. [00:21:14] Speaker B: I would love to. [00:21:14] Speaker A: I think. I think faith language can be really powerful. Right. It can be complicated, especially when it becomes part of, like, the public redemption narrative. Especially when it's, like, used either to safeguard yourself from harm or to perpetuate harm. On one hand, like when DHS used, like, blessed are the peacemakers on top of, like, soldiers dropping bombs. Like, it's the cognitive dissonance. Is like, it's awful. And Christianity has this deep language around repentance and forgiveness and transformation. And like, of course I believe people can change and that's like part of our journeys. But repentance in the Christian tradition has never just been about like what we believe or what we say. It's always within confession and accountability and like restitution. And I've noticed right now in public life, especially in the US and in other countries, like I'm from India and we see the same pattern but within like Hindutva or like Hindu nationalism, like well known figures, they take like the primary framework of faith and they communicate it as a, here's a mistake I've made, but I've repented, so forgive me of all my sins. And I think about like Shia LaBeouf and like Russell Brand. Especially Russell Brand recently, right? Russell Brand takes a Bible into jail and. And then as like a really public image, right? He's like carrying it in, he's like kept it in there. And then when he appears on Piers Morgan recently and he asked him like, tell me a verse that really helped you. And he's like, I've been reading the Bible all the time. And he struggles for like over a minute to find like this verse. And not to say that the Bible isn't like a big book and it's hard, but like, if you are actually reading it, then there must be some transformation that you should be able to like, name. Yeah, it's just, it's so manipulative. [00:23:01] Speaker B: That's the word. And I think it is a tension because part of me wants to be like, no, it's fine and it's good. And I think this would be the argument, Geraldine, I think this would be the argument is no, the more that we can talk about our faith and the more that we can like tell people about Jesus, the better. And Bible is authority and all the things, but I think we have to question like its accuracy. Like if it's accurate and it looks like Jesus and we're using, you know, verses about peace over images that are bringing peace, then like, let's do it. But yeah, when we're weaponizing and controlling and manipulating people with our religion and with Bible verses, then I don't think that's what Jesus meant exactly. [00:23:43] Speaker A: Right, right. And I think in some ways, like churches, institutions, and maybe also Christians, like, we're in this like season in our life where we're like longing for more public recognition of our faith. So I think like we're taking people like Russell Brand and like, shallow boff and saying, oh, look, oh, look. Like, at least through them, somebody will come to the faith. Let's be more forgiving. Like, there's some desperation in that. [00:24:05] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, man. Desperation is a great word. That is a great word. And again, goes back to. Right. People are just clinging for something. So they're like, I don't. I don't want to ask questions. I don't want to hold this to the light of anything. I don't want to. I don't want to wrestle with the idea of, like, is this accurate? I just want to cling to what someone is telling me to blindly believe and go, okay, well then, because they said Jesus, it must be. It must be. [00:24:27] Speaker A: Right, Exactly. So it's important that we offer a counter narrative. [00:24:32] Speaker B: Yeah. Yes, yes. So thank you for being here to do that. I appreciate it. Ah, well, when you are public, when a person is public about their beliefs, they begin to define you. Right. They can kind of solidify you to belonging in a particular group and kind of shape your identity, which is great until it's not great. And so what risks do you see existing for people who are so outspoken about what they believe? [00:24:59] Speaker A: I think on like, a personal level, like, it, being outspoken means you become more visible in a way that, like, it's kind of exposing. You can fall into this trap of thinking, like, man, like, I'm really honest out there. People know me. And people might think they know you because they see you in these, like, three minute segments. At least in my world, it's three minute segments. And so, like, you're almost reduced to a single post or, like, a single position. And it's difficult when you're trying to speak pastorally and thoughtfully on, like, complex, complex issues. But that's like, one risk that you yourself become a flat version of yourself. Yeah. And then there's like, the risk of backlash and sometimes really intense backlash. I was doxxed a few weeks ago, like, right before Palm Sunday. And like, the videos that got me docs were like, twofold. One was about body positivity, like sex toys and Planned Parenthood. And the one right next to it was like a very. A video where I said, like, it's us adults who need to hold Israel, like, accountable for its crimes against kids. And when I think when we talk about justice, when we talk about power or the church's failure, people are like, inevitably going to meet you in contested ground. Like, they're going to say, why are you saying this? Why are you disrupting the image of like both your office with your caller or the church. Right. And then I think the biggest risk, and I don't know if this is the biggest, but the third risk that I've been like kind of wrestling with as I noticed my own cowardice coming out as I've gotten more attention, is that like what we're doing, the risk is that like, we'll sell our soul or we'll sell out our platform for the attention. And it's a subtle risk, but it's a huge one. [00:26:42] Speaker B: I think it's the one that people don't see coming as much, you know, because you're like, okay, well a few more followers and then I'm going to do this post and then I'm going to talk about this thing and then maybe I wouldn't have talked about this before, but I'm going to do it now. And I think, I think it's subtle, but it's the riskiest to do that. [00:27:02] Speaker A: Yeah, I think I recognize my own, like, not propensity to cowardice, but my own cowardice kind of like come up a little as I got more attention. Especially like in February or March. It's only April now, but like those times I was like really getting a lot of like, attention. I felt myself like worried about, I don't know, like losing it all. And I was like, I just got this six months ago. Like, I don't need to be worrying about losing it and like not speak about things that are important. [00:27:30] Speaker B: Yeah, I appreciate you said that and I will, I can tell you that is real. And I don't have near the following that you do, but I've still felt that where I'm like, okay, but if I lose followers, then I lose my influence, then I lose my platform, then I lose my opportunity to speak out against the toxic narratives that are out there. Right. And obviously none of that is true because that's just the enemy coming in and being like, hey, I want you to focus on the wrong things so that I can, you know, misdirect you. But it's real. I think it's a, I think it's a real thing to admit. So I appreciate that. [00:28:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:04] Speaker B: When it comes to people changing their minds in real time, like, we have these costs that come. And so while we're kind of talking and we can talk more about, you know, front facing personalities, but I also know that there are people who are listening who are secretly or silently beginning to think differently and shift what they believe. And so even if their backlash is not public, it's still very real, right? Where their no longer part of a family or a community that they align with anymore. So how would you encourage those people to kind of weigh the cost and the benefits in letting their beliefs evolve? [00:28:40] Speaker A: Very, very good question. I think one of the first things I'd say that is that changing your mind isn't like a failure of integrity. I remember like, I was like, really. I don't know if this story will make sense, but like I remember I was like really interested in this like, boy when I was like 17, 18, like I just massive crush on him. And like we were kind of dating, kind of not. But I told all my friends that like I don't want to date him. And so like, by the time I think I, I think I fell in love with him, I. I chose like that a fact that I didn't want to be perceived as changing my mind over this like, relationship at the ripe age of 17. And I still think about that sometimes. Because changing your mind isn't a failure of integrity. It can be a sign of maturity, of like learning. And I think we often treat conviction as something that's fixed instead of like something that we continuously evaluate and evolve with. And from like a sociological lens, there's this concept called normative socialization. And it's the way that we absorb values and beliefs and loyalties from the communities that we grow up with. We're socialized into what is normal. And these loyalties aren't bad. They are almost like necessary to give us protection as we grow, grow. They give us structure, they give us belonging. But then there's that point in almost all of our lives. And usually it's at a teenager phase when like those same loyalties come into tension with like our values and our lived experience. And that space is really, really important. And I think it's a good space for the church to meet people. It's. It's like a reflective dissonance, like not just cognitive dissonance, but they're seeing the world and they're saying, hey, this isn't. What I am feeling is this moment where we like don't fully align. And I think that dissonance is such a gift. People often come to me in my DMs or in church and say like, I don't know if I believe what I believe anymore. And I'm like, that's so good. Yeah, let's figure out what's next for you. [00:30:37] Speaker B: Yeah, what would you say to the people that. And again, listeners don't come for me I'm not coming for you specifically, but, Gerlin, the people that are like, hey, I either cannot find a community near me, you know, for this reflective dissonance, or the normative socialization, like, if they don't have a community near them, or they're hesitant to try out a church because maybe they didn't have a great experience or they feel like they don't align with all the ones that are around them, what would you say to them? What would you say to those people? [00:31:14] Speaker A: Okay. I think I would offer, like, a twofold response. I think first to acknowledge that I'm sorry that's the case. I'm sorry. That there's, like, fear to go back to institution and that, like, there may not be an institution close by one. One of the cool things that I've only recently learned about is, like, online church communities that isn't, like, an extension of just being in person, but, like. But fully online communities that meet, like, once or twice a year. Like, I recently met only like, a month ago, Christian Smith. Reverend Christian Smith. Pastor Christian Smith. And like, he has a similar online community. They meet online most of the year and meet in person four times. And so, like, that might be something to consider as, like, find opportunities online. And then two. I think. I personally think that, like, in person community is important. And so if that's not a church, if that's not, like, a faith group, find a community or a group that does work that aligns with your values. That includes, like, bird viewing so you care about creation. Go bird sighting. What is it called? Birds. Bird watching. Bird watching. Go bird watching with locals in your community. There's something about embodied faith that's think important. [00:32:24] Speaker B: Yeah. I had this thought the other day, and maybe when I was prepping for your episode, and I was like, I don't know if it's possible to have an evolving faith privately. Like, I don't know what. What are your thoughts on that? Do you think it's possible to have an evolving faith only happen privately? [00:32:43] Speaker A: That's such a good. So many good questions. I think faith can definitely evolve. Right privately. In fact, like, most of it usually does. There are these, like, long internal processes of, like, doubts and questions that happen before anything really becomes visible. Yeah, but there's also something really important about, like, embodied practices within the Christian tradition. That it cannot stay private forever. Not because everything needs to become public, but because faith is inherently, like, relational. It's always, or at least it should always touch how we live, how we speak, how we relate to others in in our, like, personal relationships and in community. I think, like, a couple of the books that were, like, so important and, like, landmine books are the Cross and the Lynching tree that made the black experience of being lynched, like, similar to what happens to Jesus. Or even, like, the. The cross that I typically wear, it looks like this. And I might. Is it too dark? Looks like this. And it comes from Cambodia. And I was there because after the Khmer Rouge, there were so many landmines that were left in the ground. And so when you go to, like, Cambodia today, you'll see a lot of people having, like, a part of their leg missing. And so, like, this is an embodied response to that, that God is with you in that. So I. I think that's important. [00:34:04] Speaker B: Yeah, well. And I just don't. I think the more we take our faith seriously, and I genuinely believe that's why we're seeing so many people, you know, quote unquote, deconstructing or letting their faith evolve. I think it is because they're taking their faith seriously because they grew up. You know, I grew up in the 80s and the 90s and the 2000s, and so I know there are a lot of people that grew up in similar, you know, religions and things that I did. And it's like, no, we're taking everything that we were told as kids and now going, wait, but if we really mean this. [00:34:38] Speaker A: Yes. [00:34:38] Speaker B: Then what does it really mean for how we live? And so that was my thought, too, is like, I don't know that we can actually only have a private faith. Because, like you said, if it's something that we want to embody and that we actually believed, like, to the core of who we are, then it has to come out, I think, in the way that we live, in the way that we show up in the world. [00:34:59] Speaker A: Absolutely. I fully, fully agree. Like, it was like James, the book of James that says, like, faith without action is dead. Which I think is a bold claim. But it's. I think it's true. [00:35:10] Speaker B: Yeah, I do. Well, let's talk really quick about public figures that we see changing their mind, because I know we do see a lot of that. Right. And I will say, maybe even specifically in the. In the current administration, we've seen some people change their minds on their faith. [00:35:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:35:30] Speaker B: And it's been interesting to watch. Do you have any thoughts on all of that? [00:35:36] Speaker A: So I don't have a ton of thoughts, but I'll offer. Like, what? Because. Because it's so nuanced, and I don't want to curve. Like, yeah, I think the good that comes from public figures changing their mind, especially the ones that have, like, historically caused a lot of harm. I think, like, at least now there will be less harm caused. And, like, I want to celebrate that. [00:35:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:35:57] Speaker A: On the other hand, I think, like, a lot of. A lot of public figures, including ourselves, as like. Or myself, like, there is some level of, like, power that comes behind influence. And I think part of the shift in opinion can also be, like, a shift in power. As we see, like, our loyalty is like, that which we are loyal to diminishing. Then it's like a strategic move to shift. Shift so that you retain power. So I do think there's some of that going on. That is not just moral clarity. It is strategic. Strategic alignment. [00:36:30] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, my hope is that, as people, like I said, maybe even the people that are secretly or silently trying to change their minds and shift their thinking, that if they see that happen more and more, that it might give them the courage to go, okay, well, this is my concern, though, Gerlin, is that they. They want to see it happen and go, okay, well, it's possible to change my mind. But then the backlash, like we talked about earlier, is so intense sometimes that my fear is that it will make those people, like, recoil even more and be like, well, if I then am out loud about what I believe, then, you know, I'm going to be ostracized and all the things. And that's my concern. [00:37:11] Speaker A: Yes, I. I think that's such a good concern because, like, there's even in my comment section, right. Who, like, typically are, like, progressive Christians or just progressive thinkers, sometimes they are so mean to other people who have, like, a slightly less progressive or, like, clear stance. So I've had to, like, multiple times say, like, hey, pull back. You're going to scare them. You're gonna. You're gonna scare the masses. And I think, like, where I would like to focus, like, my attention on, like, people like that is people who are already on, like, the progressive side to say, like, stop being so defensive of this position. If people want to join us, if people want to question it, like, good. And then if they leave later, like, we're still here for the same reasons of justice and liberation. Yeah, yeah. [00:37:57] Speaker B: I forget what the verses, but there's one that talks about, you know, don't make it hard for people to come to Christ. And it's like, that's what I always think of, too, like, on both sides. And so I do think that it's. I will. I'LL speak to the progressives. You know, I do. I think that we can run so far away from the far right that then we kind of have a tendency to become what we did. Not, like, over here, just over here. And, yeah, we don't want to do that either. We need to make space for people and remember. I always try to remember, like, where I came from, and if I changed my mind, then other people can change their mind. But it was not someone yelling at me or telling me, like, no, you're so stupid to believe this, that got me to change my mind. You know, it was space, and it was curiosity, and it was, you know, allowing my questions to happen. [00:38:45] Speaker A: 100%. 100%. [00:38:50] Speaker B: Well, Gerlin, you recently went to Palestine, and so I want you to tell us a little bit about the goal of that trip and kind of what you took away from that experience. [00:39:01] Speaker A: I think the goal, it was organized through an organization called sibil, and they're like, a theological liberation Academic center. And so, like, part of what they do is organize delegations to come and visit Palestine, come and visit Israel, come and visit, like, Jerusalem, and they take, like, different groups of people. And so, like, I was invited to go with 10 other, like, clergy, people from within the diocese of Toronto for, like, a single purpose. It was to come and see, go and tell. To come and see what's, like, the reality, like, on the ground, and then go tell your networks, go tell your churches. Because especially in the wake of, like, October 7th, there's been so much, like, I don't know, so much misinformation, so much rhetoric, so much, like, fear of asking questions, that the purpose was just to, like, come and see the ground and then go and tell. And I went in pretty blind because I had spent, like, the past 10 years since I had heard about the occupation in, like, when I was 17, 18. I thought to myself back then, like, okay, I'm not gonna ever go until the occupation is ended. And so I didn't have a sense of what, like, at least the Israel side would look like. And so when we landed in Tel Aviv and we spent the first couple of days in West Jerusalem, which is, like, the Israel, Israeli side, I was like, this is really nice. Like, there are Palestinians around. Like, I. I was, like, so confused by how, like, normal it looked. And I remember, like, coming back to our group the first day and saying, like, one of two things is happening. Either I, like, I'm falling for, like, the propaganda that, like, there's nothing wrong, or, like, this really is a misunderstanding. And like, it's just not that bad. And it was like the third or fourth day when we actually crossed from like Israeli side to like a Palestinian side, East Jerusalem. And it was like night and day. There was just one fencing that was like barbed wire that takes you to the wall, like the eight meter high wall. And right beyond it, like it's a whole other world. Every single apartment building, every building has a water tank because Israel controls the water. It doesn't let like free water flow there. There hasn't been like building permits given in years and years. The checkpoint is like almost 3km long of people waiting. It's meant to just make life like inconvenient for people. And so, like, I think I was really surprised for myself at how quickly I, who had been on support of Palestine and liberation for 10 years, was so quick to fall for like the image. And it made me have a lot of grace for people who, who go on like tourist trips to see the Holy Land and don't see like the struggle of Palestine because it's so segregated. And I think it's true in the US right back when we had segregation laws or South Africa, people didn't know the other side. I remember there was like this one sign and it said as entering Ramallah, which is like a Palestinian city, said like entering a Palestinian village, entry for Israelis is dangerous. And it made me think about how, like, for Israelis who have never been into Ramallah, they'll just see the sign and believe it. But as we were like standing there, this Palestinian man, like drives up in his like red SUV and he says, the sign isn't true. We're lovely people. And it almost felt like John the Baptist, you know, in the desert saying, the kingdom of God is at hand. [00:42:27] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, man. So what exactly what is the work that you guys, I know you were, you were seeing, you were come and see. So if you were going to go and tell us right, about that experience, what would be the thing that you would want people to know? [00:42:41] Speaker A: I think a couple of things that like settler violence is like real and alive. In a number of places that we visited, there were settlers who were like actively encroaching on Palestinian land, who actively had guns, who just stood at the periphery of the village to intimidate. They were like outposts. Outposts are like pop up houses built like centimeters away from Palestinian territory because, like that land was encroached on. And as soon as an outpost is established, like the Israeli government sends a road to be built and sends electricity and so it's so well structured that if you don't see it, if you don't name it, if you don't ask for accountability over and over again, all of the land will be taken. There are so many illegal settlements in the West Bank. There are some legal settlements that are now within the two state border solution, but there are so many illegal settlements that are popping up, threatening the lives of Palestinians. I think one of the biggest issues is like, lack of accountability. I read a statistic in Al Al Jazeera that said like 99% of like, of complaints of assault or violence or even murder go unconvicted. So like 99%, which is like, incredible. So I think as an international community, like we who actually fund it, there are more people in the US Giving money to like, Israel than there are Jews around the world. It is Christian Zionism. It is like our faith Christianity that like, funds so much of the occupation. And so we should like, know what it is that we're doing and supporting. [00:44:20] Speaker B: Yeah, and this is one of those topics that's immediately polarizing. And I'm aware of that, you know, because many Western Christians were told, like, no, aligning with Israel 100% is biblical. Like, it's, it's not up for debate. What would you want people who, hopefully they haven't turned off the interview yet. People who have only heard that narrative, right, of like, Israel, God's chosen people, this is who we support. This is what we do. And they've literally never questioned it. What would you want them, what would you want them to know? I mean, outside of hearing the stories? Because I think there are people who. That stirs their compassion right? Enough to be like, okay, well, I want to pay attention. But it's also really easy to turn away from it. So what would you, what would you want them to know? Or how would you encourage us to help people get thinking differently? [00:45:07] Speaker A: Okay, I think I want to start off by like saying and acknowledging that like anti Semitism or anti Judaism, anti Jew rhetoric is like, it's evil and it does a disservice to this conversation. Right. No amount of like Palestinian liberation talk should be rooted in like, anti Semitism, anti Judaism thing. That it's, it's not connected. And so this idea of aligning with Israel is biblical. I think, like, there's a difference between Israel, the, the government and like Israelites, the people of the Old Testament. And there's like this overarching theme in the Bible. And that theme is care for the widow, the poor, the orphan, and the foreigner, like, God is on the side of the oppressed. And that is, like, fundamental to the way we read and understand the Bible. And so, like, if. Even if you, like, think, hey, Israelites are the same as Israelis, even if that's something you want to believe, which, like, we can challenge that. But besides that, like, if God is for the oppressed, then, like, our faithfulness is determined by how we too, are aligned with the oppressed. Like, any theology that becomes quickly aligned with political power is like a theology we should question. And so the prophets speak out against injustice. They speak about, speak out against, like, systemic, like, margins and the centralization of power and how that's, like, not what God wants. And so if you're finding yourself, like, feeling compassion or like, doubt even, I would say, like, look at the Bible that we call our scripture and see where God prioritizes himself. And. And for a long time, like, that priority was with the oppression of the Jews. And at that time, if we were, like, discussing this, we would say, like, oppression is wrong. And so we should liberate, like, Jewish people. And at this point, it is. Oppression is wrong. We need to liberate Palestinians and Lebanese and Sudanese. It's. It's God of the oppressed. [00:46:57] Speaker B: Yeah, and I think that's exactly. It is. We have to look at who is being oppressed right now. Right. We. If we. We don't get to pick and choose where God's love applies, where his compassion applies, where his mercy applies, it's no. We take the biblical principles that Jesus taught us and we go, okay, in this moment, who is the oppressed? Who is being marginalized? Who actually needs the welcome? And that's who it applies to in this moment. And it will apply to a different people group in the future, I'm sure. And we will want this. We want the same thing then. [00:47:31] Speaker A: Exactly, exactly. That's the foundational thread, you know, no matter who we're talking about. [00:47:36] Speaker B: Right. Well, I think it's also easy to turn away, you know, because the loss is so far away and the death is so far away. And it's hard because people, Gerlin, they don't want to pay attention. They don't want to watch the news. They don't want to know what's really happening, because it makes us uncomfortable. And I think sometimes it makes us uncomfortable to have to recognize that we are turning away from it. And so while it's. Maybe not everybody is, you know, that's the excuse. Right. Well, I can't go over there, and I can't do anything or I'm not funding what's happening. So what can people listening actually do to love our Eastern neighbors? Yes. There. But also, like, right here in their backyard. [00:48:17] Speaker A: Okay. I think a couple of things, right? Like, there are people and groups doing, like, good work on the ground here. And that good work includes, like, education, advocacy, like, I'm talking at a bird watching event about, like, migration and freedom and land and talking about Palestine in just a few weeks. And so, like, go to these local groups that are doing the work to build your own consciousness. That's one. Support relief work in. In Palestine. Support relief work in Lebanon. Because when this. When empires fall, there is a lot of work that goes into rebuilding. And so, like, we need to be ready to offer support in that rebuilding while we're doing the work of deconstructing. And three, I think engage with communities here. I think there's something so beautiful about, like, hearing an accent that you've never heard before, tasting a food that you've never tasted before and, like, honoring that culture. And so go to Palestinian restaurants, go to, like, Israeli restaurants, go to Lebanese restaurants and meet the people. And then when you see something that is, like, anti Palestinian, when you see something that is anti Semitic, voice your opinion. There be a voice like, that holds integrity. [00:49:30] Speaker B: Yeah, I love that. Well, and I know we've on this podcast, talked about it a hundred times, too, about, you know, how to speak out against racism and misogyny and all these other things. And so I would just say, friends, like, the same principles apply when it comes to this. We're still talking about a marginalized group of people. So educate yourself, read books, listen to credible voices. Yes. All that stuff still applies. [00:49:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:49:56] Speaker B: Geraldine, before I ask you the last question, which is the last question that I ask everyone, is there anything else that you wanted to say that's on your heart today that maybe we didn't cover? [00:50:07] Speaker A: Ooh, no, I think we covered, like, so much. Good. Good conversation. So. No, I think I'm good. [00:50:13] Speaker B: Okay, good, good. I don't always ask people, but every now and then I'm just like. I think Holy Spirit's, like, just in case, like, find out. [00:50:21] Speaker A: No, I'm. I'm good. Thank you. [00:50:22] Speaker B: Okay, good. [00:50:23] Speaker A: I will. [00:50:24] Speaker B: Because the podcast is called Becoming Church. How can the people listening become the church to the people around them? [00:50:30] Speaker A: I think Becoming Church. I love that. I love the name of the podcast. It, I think, starts with letting go of the idea that church is primarily a place where we go and remembering that, like, it's something that we participate in. It's a way of being in the world. And in the most basic sense, Right, that means practicing presence, like paying attention to people in your world, where is God showing up? Where did you see Jesus this week? And also means paying attention to those who, like, are often overlooked. Like someone who is carrying something heavy who might need you to be their voice in that moment. I think it also means embodying values. I'm not sure if Mosaic does this, but in the Anglican Church, we send people out. You gather them, you edify them, and then you send them out. And in that sending, there is this expectation that you go into the world and you embody justice, you embody mercy and dignity. And when we see harm happening, either in our name or just harm happening, the church becomes real when, like, we make the presence of God known in the world. And besides all the transformation work that we do out there, I think there's this big, big part of becoming church and transformational work that we do in ourselves. It isn't just how we offer ourselves to the world is who we are becoming. That's why I love the world. Like, word the name of the podcast, Becoming Church. There's this movement within ourselves. In our. In our baptismal vows, we say, like, I promise that whenever I fall into sin, I will repent and turn to the Lord. And I love it that, like, in the beginning of, like, baptism, it acknowledges, like, you're gonna fail, but whenever you fail, like, you're fine. Come on back. [00:52:13] Speaker B: Let's just be honest. Yeah, yeah. [00:52:16] Speaker A: Like, that's part of the vow. Like, when you make a mistake, you'll come back. Yeah, I think that's. That's becoming church for me. [00:52:24] Speaker B: Ah, well, thank you. It's always my favorite question to ask people. And, yeah, it's so funny because half the time I ask it and I'm like, oh, they're just going to say the same thing. And I swear, it's been 120something different answers, which just, again, speaks to how big and impactful the movement of the church actually is. Right. Because there is something to personal transformation and discipleship. And I hope that happens both through these conversations as well as, you know, at Mosaic in our church. But that really is what it's about, right, Is sending people out into the world. Okay. Take what you believe, take what you know, and now let it mean more by. Yeah, impacting. Bring heaven to earth. Like, actually make the world better, make Jesus attractive. You know, all of the things. Thank you for being here. I will link up your Instagram and your TikTok so that people can hear these, you know, fun bathing suit stories and everything else. And. [00:53:19] Speaker A: And my Facebook, please. I just started a Facebook account because I have this, like, other following, but, like, the same day I started it, somebody else started one as well in my name, and they're larger than I am. It's like, it's. [00:53:31] Speaker B: Ah. So I wouldn't think that you, like, I have to go by Kristen Mochler Young, because Kristen Young is just one of the most basic names ever. I wouldn't think there would have been another Gerlin Henry. [00:53:44] Speaker A: No, it's just me. They just used my picture in all my videos. Yeah. [00:53:48] Speaker B: No. Yeah. [00:53:50] Speaker A: And I just don't. And I'm sure, like, they're gonna ask for money, like, within days. So follow me. [00:53:57] Speaker B: Send me the link, and I'll put the right one in. [00:53:59] Speaker A: Okay, will do. [00:54:06] Speaker B: What do you do in the world beyond what you believe? That's my takeaway question from this episode, and one that I hope sticks with you as well. Whatever your level of faith or belief, find one way this week that you can make it known. Not by telling someone else what you believe, but by living in a way that demonstrates it. That's kind of the goal of this podcast. Friends, I want to equip you to become the church the world needs, because one, it is our responsibility as followers of Jesus, and two, you really can do it. Until next time, thanks so much for listening and keep becoming the church of the people around you.