Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: The tension between people is so prevalent right now, it's enough to want to make you hole up in your house or stop even trying to have civil conversations with people, whether it's online or in real life. Then again, as followers of Jesus, we're not meant to be people who shrink back, but people whose faith leads us to persevere. So when we're just as exhausted or discouraged as the next person, what do we do?
Hi, I'm Kristen Mochler Young, and this is Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church that the world needs today. I'm here with Justin E. Giboney, who is going to help us navigate this very real culture war that we all find ourselves in just by existing in 2026. If you're tired of the demonization of the other side and are ready for a new way forward, this conversation will renew your hope that unity is actually possible.
All right, Justin, I am excited to welcome you to the Becoming Church podcast.
[00:01:11] Speaker B: Thanks for having me, Kristin.
[00:01:12] Speaker A: Yes, glad to have you with us this morning. Listen, I know a lot of people are familiar with your work and before we get to your book, I want you to tell us a little bit about your, like day to day. You're an attorney and a political strategist. What does that actually look like?
[00:01:27] Speaker B: So, yeah, my full time job is the Ann Campaign, which is a Christian civic organization.
So we create a lot of content explaining policy, letting people know what's going on in civics during the day. We try to make that very accessible. I think sometimes people watch different shows and it's just hard to understand what's going on or they just can't trust that the people don't have an agenda. And so we try to do it as impartially as we can. So that takes a lot of time. And in order to create content, you have to take in a lot of content. You want to be informed. And so I spent a lot of time reading policy, reading articles, things of that nature, also a lot of public speaking. And so I go around the country talking to people about the intersection between faith and politics. And then a lot of the other time is, is really talking to pastors and faith leaders about how to engage, doing workshops and things of that nature.
[00:02:23] Speaker A: That's awesome. You're actually going to be in Charlotte in June, so anybody that's local can come hear from you directly, meet you maybe. That would be super fun.
[00:02:32] Speaker B: That's right. Looking forward to it.
[00:02:34] Speaker A: Yeah, I'll put a link to the show notes so anybody wants to come check us out. I can imagine, though, that this is exhausting. Like, I try to keep up with the news and listen to, you know, people that I trust and try to be impartial and all the thing. But, like, are you not exhausted at the end of the day, just taking in all of these? And it's always changing, right? It's constantly changing.
[00:02:54] Speaker B: Yeah. Some days are harder than others. I mean, it's my job. I'm somewhat of a policy nerd anyway, so I kind of enjoy taking in the information and trying to break it down in a way that people understand.
But. Yeah, some days can be overwhelming just at the sheer amount of information and sometimes the sheer. The toxicity of what's coming out. Yeah, there are those days, for sure.
[00:03:15] Speaker A: Yeah. What do you do? And I didn't prep you for this, but what do you do on those days when either it's, like, overwhelming or exhausting or too toxic and you just kind of need to, like, a reset? How do you. How do you just, like, get peace in your mind?
[00:03:29] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, my family is a big part of my piece, so I have three sons, so hanging out with them, talking with them, usually takes my mind out. They'll have something to say that has nothing to do with politics. And so it usually takes my mind away from that. Listening to music, reading pickleball, all that stuff. I have some pretty good pastimes. Yeah.
[00:03:45] Speaker A: Pickleballer. All right. All right. Are you good?
[00:03:48] Speaker B: I'm okay.
[00:03:49] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:03:49] Speaker B: I wouldn't say I'm good.
[00:03:51] Speaker A: All right. It's more for fun anyway. I imagine that's right.
Well, I have got you here today. I've got your book right here in front of me. Don't let nobody turn you around. And so before I ask you kind of some deep diving questions, just give us an overarching like, why did you write this book?
[00:04:06] Speaker B: I think a lot of what we're going through today in this culture war, the tension and polarization that we're going through, even in the church, I think the principles that we should have learned during the civil rights movement can actually lead us through that. The ethic that was applied by many of the Christians who led that movement could help us today, and I think we're losing some of that. I think there's been a lot of revisionist history.
I think both sides kind of try to co opt this civil rights movement for their purposes. On the left, you have people kind of revising it to make it a secular movement when this was a movement that was built on the authority of Scripture. I think that's very important that it wasn't a. A quote unquote, progressive movement in the way that we think of it now, but also others that may, you know, pull out of the civil rights movement. Just a sort of colorblindness and a way to ignore issues.
That's obviously not what it was about either. But some of those principles, if we were really to believe in them today, I think pulls us through what is otherwise a very polarizing and divisive moment.
[00:05:09] Speaker A: And before we jump into the culture, which I do want to do, you know, you mentioned revisionist history, and so I. We see a lot of this happening. We see a lot of this happening in maybe in the church, more than I realize, definitely in, you know, politics and just kind of the country that we're in.
What would you encourage people to do? Like. Like, I'm concerned, you know, you have three sons. I've got two daughters. I'm hoping that they'll have kids one day. Like, how do we protect the integrity of the stories of what actually happened and pass that down when there is so much revisionist history happening, even, like, in textbooks and in the school system?
[00:05:46] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I think history is all. Should always primarily be spread by families and communities.
School is great and all this stuff, but we. I think we become too dependent on the educational system to do things that families and communities should primarily be doing. So I'm not saying history shouldn't be taught in schools, but it should almost be secondary to the history that you get from home and what you're taught. And I think that's one of the biggest issues. And then making sure that we lift up those sources of true history and kind of spread that around.
[00:06:22] Speaker A: Yeah, okay, that's good. And truly, like, it should be on us as parents, we need to educate ourselves first. Right. And for me, I know at least that look started by looking at what I was taught in school and going, okay, hold on.
What was missed here? And making sure that I myself knew what I was saying before I can even talk to my kids about it. So. So there is a responsibility and ownership, I think, for all of us in this.
Kids are not kids, you know.
So, Justin, for the framing of this, you talk a lot about culture and culture war. For the framing of this conversation. How do you define culture and what culture is?
[00:06:56] Speaker B: Yeah, well, so culture is basically, in a way, kind of what defines our goals, our norms, our standards.
Our culture tells us who we are and what we're striving for. The culture war, though, is really been a battle between conservatives and progressives for the identity of America. What does it mean to be American? What are American values? And that's kind of been the war that's been going back and forth for a long time.
It's not that the issues in the culture war are unimportant, and I want people to know that a lot of these issues matter. What our kids learn in school, is it appropriate. Sexual education, or is it inappropriate, what constitutes a marriage, all those things. The sanctity of life. Those are issues worth debating and advocating for. But it's how we do it and how we see our neighbor as we do it is. Is, I think, the big point that I try to get at.
[00:07:52] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, I think it's pretty clear for people that are listening. Right. Especially when you talk about Christians, American Christianity, and church and politics. It feels like there are.
I mean, there's two different sides. You can break it down, you know, whatever the dividing line is. But I think one of them that I see, a big division is that there are people that see where the church is getting caught up in political power, and then there are those who refuse to see it.
Is that kind of what you're talking about when you talk about this culture war? And, like, how do we encourage the latter to then pay attention and actually admit that, hey, this is happening, this is an issue?
[00:08:27] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, it's part of it. Part of the problem with the culture war is that the church has started to be led by ideologies and by parties instead of leading itself. Right. So we have kind of outsourced our public witness to whatever party we think is least bad.
And in that way, Christian principles that should be helping us think through the culture war and think through how to disagree with people and not hold them in contempt.
They become secondary to just winning. And we're only concerned about the outcome, which is extremely shortsighted given that the outcomes change all the time. Yeah. And so I do think that's. That's. That's a part of it for sure.
[00:09:11] Speaker A: What's another part of it that you think people might be missing or that you see very clearly? You're like, this is the thing that we need to talk about.
[00:09:19] Speaker B: Well, it divides people in the. In and issues in a way that just. That just isn't healthy. And so if I. If I disagree with somebody on an issue like race or abortion, I really have to start thinking that they're purely evil. You Know, I can't just say, hey, you're wrong on this. I have to say, you're irredeemable, and your side is irredeemable, and your side is completely evil and malicious.
And that's not what the Bible teaches us. For one, the Bible teaches us that we're not good.
And so although somebody we're looking at could be wrong, this isn't moral relativism to say, well, everybody's right in a way. No, some people are wrong, but what does that mean and how I treat them? And do I want them to get it right or do I want them to be destroyed?
That's the difference in a redemptive gospel centered Christian viewpoint and a culture war viewpoint.
[00:10:12] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Well. And I think depending on how we want to look at it, right. We can say, okay, well, everybody's bad and everybody's wrong. Or I know for me, it helps me to remember that, like, everybody is good, that the other person is also made in God's image and was also called very good. And so when we see people through that perspective of the way God sees them, you know, that helps to center us to it. Like, like you said, so that we're not just going, okay, this person is evil and therefore must be destroyed.
[00:10:38] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:10:39] Speaker A: And that's whatever this argument is.
[00:10:41] Speaker B: Yeah. That's part of what I get at in the book. I suggest that we shouldn't see politics as good versus evil, but that we should have another frame, which is imago day, which is what you're getting at.
[00:10:50] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:10:51] Speaker B: Everybody's made in the image of God, whether they're wrong on their politics or not. But also a. An understanding of the Fall and how even if we're more right on an issue and we should advocate for that issue, we're not right enough to dismiss people or right enough to condemn people in the way that we do.
[00:11:09] Speaker A: Yeah. How do you hold that tension, Justin, of like. And it's something that all Christians, all believers have to wrestle with. Right. But for you, like, how do we hold that tension of like, we are good made in the imago day. And also because of the Fall, we've got this other side to us. Like, how do. How do you hold those two things at the same time?
[00:11:30] Speaker B: Well, I think you have to stay in the word. I mean, if you listen to the words of Jesus, there's reminders of that all the time. And then we have to have a level of humility, understanding. There are things that we can be certain about and that we can say, no, this is Certainly wrong. But at the same time, I need to have the humility to understand I could be very wrong about something else.
Otherwise, we can't learn from people. And I think one of the biggest mistakes we make today is we think that if somebody disagrees with us on our big issue, then they have to be wrong on everything else. And I have to disagree with them on everything else, and they have nothing to contribute to my life.
It's just not true. And if it was true, we wouldn't be able to listen to any of the disciples, the apostles, or anybody but Jesus would, you know, would kind of be cut off from listening to anything they say. We hold others to a standard that we don't hold ourselves to, and the people that we like to.
[00:12:20] Speaker A: That's good. That's good.
Speak to kind of the discomfort of people. You know, it's easier. Like, we all know it's easier to go, okay, well, if I disagree with you on this thing, then I'm just going to count you out or I'm going to disagree with you on everything.
But I think there's a discomfort that people are maybe afraid to lean into when it comes to going, okay, well, I might disagree with you on this one thing, but then I can still be in alignment on the rest of it.
What do you think that. How can we help people to kind of lean into that instead of pushing people to one extreme or, you know, putting. Putting them to the other side?
[00:12:54] Speaker B: Yeah, well, first it's.
It's understanding that people are complicated, that people can get something very wrong and be right about something else, and that, I don't know, somebody based on that one opinion. So if I disagree with you on abortion, I may think you're wrong, and I may be very right that you're wrong.
I can't just dismiss you and think there's nothing that I could get out of our relationship or that it's not worth having a relationship because that's the big, you know, how could you ever be wrong on that? You know, this makes you, again, irredeemable. And so I think we have to look for relationship past just that disagreement and understand that our algorithms and the conflict entrepreneurs, these are people who build their algorithms off of division.
They don't want you to make that connection. And in fact, they may tell you that you're inauthentic or that you're naive if you do try to build those relationships. And we just have to be strong enough as a church to push back against that lie.
[00:13:55] Speaker A: What do you think the church is getting wrong. You mentioned, you know, the church needs to lead itself. And so what is a practical thing that you think the church is missing or should do in order so that we can start to guide our people back to being able to stay in this like healthy, not middle place necessarily, but you know, like a balanced Christian perspective.
[00:14:15] Speaker B: We have to be determined to build relationships with other Christians that we disagree with.
You know, if I disagree with you on one issue concerning race or we voted for somebody different, I have to be determined to still have a relationship with you if I'm going to pursue the unity that the gospel commands us to pursue. And I just don't see that determination. I see, hey, you get this wrong, I throw my hands up, let me build a wall of hostility around me and my tribe and you know, spend most of my time talking about how, you know, thank God I'm not, I'm not like these other Christians.
[00:14:50] Speaker A: Right.
Justin, give me a practical for the person listening that's like, I hear you and I agree. Right. And they're like, I want to try to build relationships, but the other person. Right. The person I'm trying to like disagree and still have a relationship with is, does not seem to want to engage. At what point, I guess do you like, how do you keep going versus when do you know? Okay, I guess this is not worth pursuing anymore.
[00:15:15] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm not saying kid, I mean, you know, relationship is a two way street. I'm not saying kidnap somebody that doesn't want to have anything to do with you, but it's not really about necessarily about just one person. Although in our interpersonal relationships we'll find that it's being open to relationships with certain kinds of people that are different from you and, and being able to learn. Not going here. I think one of the things that we do and this is a practical thing not to do is go into those relationships trying to prove the other person wrong or you know, trying to having an agenda that wants to necessarily change them when that's never the first step of a genuine relationship.
It has to be about hearing them out, getting to know them and not necessarily getting your way or having your way or changing their mind off top.
[00:16:02] Speaker A: Yeah. The motivation, I think exactly what you said. Are we trying to change their mind or are we trying to listen? It's that humility piece again, right. That you mentioned. Are we trying to humbly like be curious about where they came from and how they came to these conclusions? I think that's the missing piece so often is I think there's a lack of grace. And I'd be curious your thoughts on this. I think there's a lack of grace and curiosity when it comes to understanding how someone arrived at even if it's a wrong opinion, you know, how they believed that to be so. Right.
[00:16:32] Speaker B: Yep. No, absolutely. And you see, you saw it in, since 2020, you've seen it in the race conversation, in the church.
People can come with the right spirit, but if they say the wrong word, if they don't, you know, read the people that you want them read, if they're even open to hearing about a certain system that you don't, you think is bad, then they're automatically written off. Instead of having the grace to say if somebody comes in with the right spirit, having the, having a bad opinion is okay, we can get past that.
[00:17:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:17:07] Speaker B: And again, because if we can't get past that, I don't see why anybody would talk to us either. Right. Like each one of us as individuals can't uphold the standards again that we put on other people. And so if it's about the spirit, then we can talk through the language that can improve.
We can disagree on an aspect here or there, but we have, but again, we have to be determined to build that relationship because the gospel commands it. And too many Christians are too comfortable being separate and not talking to other Christians because of political differences. I think that's, that's something we have to get over.
[00:17:44] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. I'm with you on that. Well, I want to know in the book, the subtitle is how the black church's public witness leads us out of the culture war. And so I want to really dig into that too and ask you, what can we learn from the black church about staying calm and grounded without giving up our power for change?
[00:18:04] Speaker B: Yeah, well, one thing I point out is that they did not fit the conservative versus progressive binary. If Christians are focused on being the best progressive or conservative they can be, they'll fall short because the gospel demands much more of us than either of those man made ideologies ever could. And so they weren't focused on what was.
If what they were doing was progressive or conservative, they were trying to do right. And I think a lot of us need to free ourselves from the constraints of, of ideology. So that, that's one thing they showed. Something I talked about a little bit earlier is how they saw their opponents.
Okay, yeah, this is probably the biggest one.
[00:18:44] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:18:45] Speaker B: They were able to see the brokenness not only in others, but also in themselves.
And they refused to believe that anybody was irredeemable.
So what we do today is we want to prove, like, our number one thing oftentimes is proving how bad the other side is. Like, I want everybody to know. I know We've repeated this 50 million I repeated every other day. But I just want you to know how bad they are.
And that's my number one goal. I don't think that was their goal. They wanted to be very clear on what actions were wrong and why it needed to change, and they were willing to sacrifice their lives to change that. I think that says a lot.
[00:19:23] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:19:24] Speaker B: But they also wanted people to know that even their opponents were redeemable and that they themselves could become evil while fighting evil.
And we tend to think that once we have a good cause that everything else is taken care of. That's not true.
The spirit of a cause is just as important as the objective of a cause. And I think we've lost sight of that. And so sometimes we do have a good cause, but our nasty modes of operation and attitudes sour the cause and sour us.
And that's something else I think that they could, they could teach us.
[00:20:00] Speaker A: How much of this do you think comes from social media and like that? Because it, like you mentioned, it's the algorithm. Right. The. The more hateful you are, the more divisive you are, the more angry you are, the more like, hot takes you have about whoever quote unquote, the other is, the more likes and views and followers like, do you think this has just made it so much worse?
[00:20:20] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. I mean, social media, I don't, I don't know exactly how much is responsible for that, but. But sure, it's.
It's made it a lot worse because what's happening is our algorithms are discipling us to hate our neighbors. Over and over, you're getting the same message about how bad this group is. All the things they've done to. You take fully taking responsibility from anything you've done and putting it on somebody else. Right. It's. It's. I've said before, like, as Christians, we're not supposed to put all of our burdens on a scapegoat. We already have a lamb that has been sacrificed, but we're looking for these scapegoats to blame everything on. And, and yeah, it's, It's a problem. And I think it's one that Christian leaders have to start talking about and have to stop adding to.
[00:21:04] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:21:04] Speaker B: You know, I think there's too many, too much just negative commentary about other people that goes viral, and a lot of Christian leaders know it goes viral, so they love, you know, so they'll continue to spread it. But that's bad incentives. And the world's already doing that. We don't need. We don't need Christians adding to that. There's enough content talking about how bad your opponent is that a pastor shouldn't have to add to that.
[00:21:27] Speaker A: Right. Well, it's that verse about, right. You can gain the whole world and lose your soul. Like, that's what I always remember when I see content like that. Or even just to be honest, I'm tempted. I'm like, oh, this is a good thing, you know? And then Holy Spirit's like, no, ma', am, you're not putting that online. You make a lot of content with the and campaign. How do you.
How do you make content? Like, do you have specific principles or guiding principles that you're like, we're going to hit these things so that you don't accidentally get sucked into that?
[00:21:56] Speaker B: Yeah. I think one of the biggest things, we just try to stay impartial. And one of the reasons that the End Campaign has trust in a variety of different Christian spaces that don't necessarily always agree is that we don't think that anybody is above or below a fair and constructive critique.
And so I don't come into a place trying to convince them to be progressive or conservative. I come in with an honest critique, which can end up being positive or negative about what's going on. And so we do try to say, hey, and one thing for me personally is all of us can kind of surrender to audience capture. So even you, as a podcast, so you know what your audience, you see what gets the most views.
[00:22:37] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:22:37] Speaker B: And while a lot of people think folks who create content are kind of free to do what they want to, a lot of them are arrested by audience capture and what their audience wants to hear. And so one thing that I try to do to keep myself honest is when I think something needs to be said, even if I know my audience doesn't want to hear it, I try to make sure that I say it anyway to say I'm not. And that's what this is what Jesus does, Right? Like, at the height of his ministry, he gives a hard teaching and a bunch of people walk away.
[00:23:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:23:06] Speaker B: And it just says, what am I here for? Am I here for the truth, or am I here for the glory and the applause of men? And we're all susceptible to that. I mean, it's a daily. It's a daily fight. But I think it's something that we should be conscious of and have people who can hold us accountable for that.
[00:23:21] Speaker A: Yeah, well, it's, it's the who are we doing this for? Right? It's the obedience of like, am I doing this for, like you said, the, the applause and the views and the whatever. Am I saying this? Am I saying the thing because God was like, hey, you need to say the thing to people.
If you're interested in learning more, I'm linking Justin's resource list from the Ant Campaign as a starting place.
There are also multiple books on navigating political conversations, scripturally Loving Our Neighbor, racism, social justice, history, and all of the things that we're talking about today on the Becoming Church Resource list on Amazon. It's always linked in the show notes so you can grab Justin's book Don't let nobody turn you around, as well as resources from previous guests that will help you be informed. I will let you know that if you purchase three through that link, you are also dropping a few cents into our tithe box with your purchase. Be sure to scroll back through your podcast feed for previous Becoming Church episodes on all of these topics as well. And if you're looking for even more resources or something specific, reach out to me on Instagram hristenmochleryoung or send me an email at BecomingChurch TV and I'd be happy to help to point you to some of the titles that have and continue to educate me personally.
Well, Justin, I know that, you know, you talked about it a little bit, this idea of how we can use the power that we do have for change. And so before we talk a little bit more about the black church historically and specifically, what can people do? Like again, we've talked a lot about, right? We don't want to be negative, we don't want to be divisive, and we have to stay rooted in the teachings of Jesus.
But do you have any practicals and maybe it's, you know, pulling it straight out of the book that people can affect change where change needs, you know, like you mentioned, things that need to be called out and things that are wrong. How would you encourage people listening to affect change for the better for good?
[00:25:24] Speaker B: Find issues that bring Christians together, that are not partisan and that bring Christians together. For instance, for the and campaign, it's been an issue like childhood literacy when you talk about kids and when you talk about how bad the literacy problem is and a lot of different it's not just in one community. It's In a lot of different communities, I think we all have an understanding that when kids can't read, that's not good for them, and it's not good for society. And a lot of reasons. It's an issue that. No. Whether they're a Democrat or Republican, Christians can say, now this matters. Number one, it's about children. So that should always bring us together.
But it is also about helping our neighbors. And so we really look for opportunities to say, all right, let's put the partisanship aside. What can the church do together? Again, it's about that determination to bring the church together. Not so too many people are surrendering that mission. And I don't. I just don't see where the Bible makes it optional.
[00:26:17] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:26:18] Speaker B: And so we have to have that determination. So what I think conversations are great.
Sometimes the words can get in the way and the concepts that we use can get in the way. Sometimes it's just about doing the work together.
So sometimes it's just about serving other communities. It's about being in, you know, being in those communities and building relationships.
In my opinion, those are the best ways to. Number one, you're making change because you're. You're serving and you're doing something that's important, but you're also, again, building those relationships. And so showing people that you're willing to sacrifice not just for your community, but for other communities.
[00:26:55] Speaker A: Okay, now I'm going to challenge that a tiny little bit because I totally agree. I love the relationship, serve people, love our neighbors, all of that.
[00:27:02] Speaker B: I'm always up for a challenge.
[00:27:04] Speaker A: It's hard. Okay, good. Let's go. It's hard, especially right now, I would say, Justin, to take an issue or something that people care about and have it not be political or not be partisan, even if we don't want it to be. So for an example, I have become very involved with women of welcome who is working for immigration. Right. For migrants and refugees. And they are.
They are very clearly nonpartisan. They're like, we don't care who you voted for or whatever. We want to help take care of people and love our neighbor. And every time that I speak about this or help do the work, there are people that want to come in and make it a partisan issue.
So how do we do these two things again? Right. Like. Like you said, we have to build relationship and do things that are not partisan necessarily, but everybody is seeing everything through, like, a political lens. So how does it. Does it. How does it work?
[00:27:59] Speaker B: Yeah. So my proposition isn't that every issue can remain nonpartisan. Right. But I think there are certain issues that we can start with and build from there. But that doesn't mean that the issues that become more partisan, we shouldn't do anything about them. Right. So it's not either or. It's not. Well, don't do any issue that can become partisan. No. Try to find ones that we can come together on. And also you still got to push for the ones that shouldn't be partisan. And I should be able to articulate why it shouldn't be that. Why there may be a range of different policies that we can support and disagree on.
[00:28:33] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:28:33] Speaker B: But this part of it we should all agree on as Christians. And the way that you do that is through pointing to scripture. Now, there are people with bad theology that aren't going to disagree with anything you say, but I also think there are a lot of people who work in good faith and, and who are honest brokers that, that will hear you out. And it may just take time, but you have to be, I think you have to be conscious of what makes an issue partisan and then, and then work to say, hey, this is about principles. Everything's not about party.
Some things are just about principles. Let me show you the biblical principles that make this important for Christians in general. And so, and again, because of many conflict entrepreneurs, they want to make everything partisan so that we can't ever agree.
We have to, we have to be able to inspire people beyond that. And that's not a one conversation thing. That's not something you're gonna do next month, but something to work, work towards for sure.
[00:29:29] Speaker A: Well, the key thing that I just heard in your underlying response there is that we have to be willing to, like, do the work and be educated on it. Right. This to me is the difference between let me give you a hot take on something versus let me take an issue that genuinely matters and do the work of finding how I can explain to people why we should all care about this. I think that is one of the key missing pieces here.
[00:29:53] Speaker B: Yeah, that's good. I think that's good.
[00:29:56] Speaker A: Summary, Justin. The black church historically, you know, has seen hope as resistance. And so how can we understand hope as resistance as being different than just like, choosing to be like, blindly naive?
[00:30:08] Speaker B: Yeah.
Well, let me say this. I think one important part. You know, I.
My grandfather was a bishop in that tradition. I've been around that tradition quite, quite a lot.
And I do want to be clear to people, this, this book isn't just an exaltation of the black Church. Right. It's a. It's a. Using it as an example of something it did really well and saying, hey, we should. We should look at this example, because that legacy belongs to the church as a whole. And so I really see the book as a challenge to today's church in general. Like, it's a challenge to white churches, towns of black churches, all of them, to say there's a higher standard that we can live up to, and here's proof of concept that we can do that.
[00:30:46] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:30:46] Speaker B: And I think one of the. One. The reason that I pull out this.
This civil rights generation is the hope is the ability to go through tougher times than we're going through now and not become bitter.
[00:31:01] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:31:01] Speaker B: And not become enraged and not reciprocate the hatred that they were receiving.
[00:31:08] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:31:09] Speaker B: The hope is very important now. I tend to just. I don't. I think resistance is a part of it, a very important part of it.
I think resistance is too small too, though. I think what they were doing was more than just resisting. They were actually creating. Because I think what. Resisting can just be a fight. But what are you fighting for? What are you. What do you. What is your hope in. Resistance is a part of it.
Resistance is not. And this would be my disagreement with some, you know, other theologians in my community. Resistance is important.
It's not enough. Even if you go back to the Exodus narrative, there was a resistance, but the resistance was to what? To be able to glorify God, to be able to receive the law? You know, I mean, it's not. It's not just. I think when you just talk about resistance, you make your opponent or your oppressor too big. This is really about God. This is not about them.
[00:32:02] Speaker A: Yeah, so you talk about creating hope.
Right. So it's bigger. Like, how are they creating hope? Or how do we create hope right now?
[00:32:11] Speaker B: Well, yeah, it's more about seeing hope. So in the book, I talk a lot about moral imagination, and what moral imagination is. Is it helps us not be arrested by the moment. Sometimes when we're going through a very tense and divisive moment, we can lose our principles because we're so caught up in the moment and we can't see past it. So now our principles seem like, oh, this must be the exception to all of my principles, because this moment is so big.
Moral imagination says, no, there will be other times things can change. I have to maintain my principles. I have to be more than just somebody who's fighting against something, but somebody who stands for something. And what I stand for doesn't go away in this moment, but I got. I have to be able to see past it. To me, that's where hope comes from. If I only see a very dark moment, where is, you know, where is hope in that?
I think the black church, especially during the civil rights movement, was able to very well articulate what was beyond that very oppressive moment.
[00:33:14] Speaker A: I love the phrase moral imagination.
I love it like, I'm somebody who, when I, you know, when I read the scripture, I love the show the Chosen because I think they do, like, a holy imagination very well of, like, filling in the gaps of, you know, what's not said in scripture, like between the lines of text. Is there a specific example, Justin, or a time that you can think of where you were in a situation or something and that moral imagination helped you to get through the moment?
[00:33:43] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, there's been a number of times where things haven't gone my way.
You think doors are closed, and I think you just have to go to the Word and say, no, there's more to this. And in fact, I know God can take a bad situation and work it out for my benefit.
That is moral imagination.
That should be the difference in how Christians react to this moment and how somebody who is far more secular reacts to this moment. We react with hope and don't mourn in the same way.
We shouldn't be reacting as if something doesn't go our way. It's, you know, all is lost. And I just see too much of that, too much desperation from Christians who should be knowing that, you know, God has overcome the world. You know, Jesus has overcome the world. And what we're going through now matters because people, you know, God cares about what we're going through at the moment. It's not the end of the story.
[00:34:44] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Pulling ourselves out of that, like, navel gaze. Right. Of seeing just the negative happening in the moment.
Well, Justin, I have also learned about lament and, like, holy lament from the black church and black theologians. How do you see lament being connected to hope? Because I think that they are connected, especially when we're talking about, you know, hard times.
[00:35:05] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, hope isn't to say that we don't recognize what we're going through. The lament is an acknowledgement of how painful things are. It can be an acknowledgment of loss.
Very important to the black church and how it, you know, survived through that. That civil rights Jim Crow moment.
[00:35:25] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:35:26] Speaker B: The beauty of it was you don't stay there right you don't stay in that space. You. You acknowledge it. There's nothing. I think that acknowledgement is actually healthy. You don't. You don't want to be. You don't want it to become just kind of pie in the sky where I'm actually avoiding reality.
Lament helps us deal with the reality of what's going on.
Hope helps us not stay there. So a lot of the songs you see keep your eyes on the prize. You're looking up beyond something, but you're not disconnected from what's going on today. And I think Lament connects us to the reality and the pain that we might be going through at that moment.
[00:36:03] Speaker A: Yeah, two sides of the same coin sometimes, right? Like, we need to acknowledge and then have the hope to be able to keep moving forward.
[00:36:09] Speaker B: That's right. That's right. We're not. We're not. We're not preaching escapism. And I think without the Lament, you're just escaping instead of dealing with something.
[00:36:19] Speaker A: And I think that that's actually quite prevalent right now. Do you see this happening? I feel like this is happening a lot, especially in Western American Christianity, when people are just going like, this is making me uncomfortable. I don't know what to do with this. Or it's making me feel bad because maybe I'm not actively involved. And so we just pretend that it's not there.
How. How would we. How would you encourage those people to open their eyes maybe, and to acknowledge, like, how do we move people, you know, from that escapism to like, no, you kind of got to get in it. You got to. This is biblical, even.
[00:36:54] Speaker B: Yeah. I think it's demanded by love of neighbor. When we talk about. If you. If you go to 1st John 3:16, Love is self sacrifice.
So if I'm just trying to escape everything, I'm pretending that everything that isn't pleasant isn't there.
I'm not sacrificing for anybody to love anybody and help them flourish in the here and now.
And that matters. We have to be able to make those sacrifices. We can't run away from tough issues because we don't want to get our hands dirty. We just don't want to think about it.
I understand that, but it doesn't lead to glorifying God. People need to be also be able to see what God can do for them now through his servants. And we want to be, you know, the hands and feet of God. In that way.
[00:37:40] Speaker A: It feels like a. Maybe almost even like a theological perspective shift that people have to have.
Where we go, yes, we have a personal relationship with Jesus. Like, yes, he, you know, sacrificed himself for us and also not just for us, like, for the whole world. And so we have to be able to see that and apply that, like you said, to our neighbor. I think maybe that's the issue is that a lot of us were kind of, like, steeped in this personal savior relationship, which, again, is true.
But it has caused us to focus more on what Jesus can do for us and forget maybe that he wants to do the same thing for others.
[00:38:18] Speaker B: That's right. That's right. And it shows our heart. That's the fruit. Right. What people see in us, how we treat other people, is the fruit that speaks to them and allows us to evangelize. Right. It opens people up to. To what we're saying on a spiritual matter, which we know the spiritual is the. Is the most, you know, is. Is incredibly important, but it should be reflected in our works.
And, and that's. I think people miss that sometimes.
[00:38:46] Speaker A: Well, you wrote a whole chapter about that in the book, right? You have a whole chapter on, like, the fruit of the Spirit. You want to talk a little bit more about that?
[00:38:54] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I think in politics we can talk about the fruit of the Spirit, and sometimes we talk about that on an interpersonal level. But how does that. How's the fruit of the Spirit reflected in our politics, in what we post, in what we say and who we support and how we talk about our opponents? I think all those things should be. The fruit of the Spirit should be reflected in all of those things. And, and if I look at Christian politics, I would love to say that people can look at us and say, man, they really are getting this right. They're really, you know, making it clear what the alternative should be. I don't. I don't. I don't think I could say that in good faith. Christians aren't necessarily reflecting the fruit of the Spirit in.
In how they communicate and engage on a number of levels. And so I think we could improve there.
[00:39:41] Speaker A: Yeah, Well, I heard it was interesting the other day.
I think it might have been Pastor Andy Stanley. I think it was said something to the effect of, like, loyalty is not important enough to become a fruit of the Spirit. And I was like, hold up, because I think that's an issue. Right. We are so loyal to the wrong things. Like, instead of just having loyalty to God, I think we found a loyalty to parties or to ideologies or to agendas or whatever it is.
And it has become more important Even than the actual fruits of the spirit.
[00:40:11] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:40:12] Speaker A: That are there yet we've gotten ourselves confused.
[00:40:16] Speaker B: No, that's good. It's just like, you know, in order to love property properly, we have to love God first. And love through that lens ends. And it's the same thing with loyalty. My loyalty to a friend can actually become negative unless my loyalty to God comes first. Which frames loyalty to every. Everything else.
[00:40:34] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:40:35] Speaker B: Which limits loyalty to every. You know, what we would call loyalty to everything else.
That's, that's, that's a really important point.
[00:40:42] Speaker A: Yeah.
Well, Justin, for the people that are listening who are exhausted by the politics, right, they're just like, I can't pick up my phone, I can't turn on the tv. Like it's too much, it's changing too fast. But they do still care deeply about issues at hand. How would you encourage them to engage without losing their soul?
[00:41:02] Speaker B: By all means, put your phone down. By all means, turn the television off. You're. You don't need to know, you know, we have this 24 hour news cycle.
Most of humanity has never had that. And they were, okay, you, you don't need to know every single thing that's going on, every single minute. In a way, that's a game for platforms and news organizations to, to make their money.
Put it down, that's fine. And focus less on national issues and more on local community issues. There's something going on in your community that you can help people with. And I think once you see that, it restores your sense of agency, your sense of empowerment. We can feel very disempowered if we're just looking at national things. But if we tune in local, if we look at that, that child that needs us to help them learn how to read and what that can do for their life. If we did sacrifice a few hours a week to go do that, you begin to see again. Well, God has given me agency and influence and I need to steward that. Not by being on social media all day or watching cable news all day, but by serving my community.
[00:42:14] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, and it does give us. I mean, to me, that's the hope coming back when I can look around and see, oh, I did actually make a difference.
Like God has worked through me and the things that he's given me, the skills, the talents, the people in front of me. That's the hope then to go like, okay, we can change maybe even eventually at a bigger level. But yeah, starting small I think is key.
Key? Well, how, Justin, for the people also Again, that are still like, okay, I'm going to do better. Fruits of the spirit, all of the things. Right.
How would you encourage them to discern when to speak up and when to stay quiet? I know we kind of talked about, like, what to focus on. Right. The things that would like, bring people together.
But is there a way that you discern, like, all right, this is a thing that I'm not going to talk about or this is something that I do think needs to be heard?
[00:43:04] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. So, yeah, none of this is about conflict avoidance. It's about the ability to engage in a faithful and effective way. So nobody's saying, hey, don't ever say anything that doesn't that upset somebody. Well, I wouldn't be able to use the civil rights movement as an example if that's what I, what I was saying.
But I think for us, number one, you want to be informed. And so a lot of what you're going to see on social media and within your algorithm is going to misinform you. You have to, you have to deliberately go past your algorithm. Don't trust your algorithm. Go past your algorithm to find out what the issue is really about. Too often we jump into something and we haven't really researched it. We've heard probably the worst arguments on the other side, but haven't heard the best arguments. Make sure that you're acquainted with the best arguments on both sides. On both sides. Make sure as you address the issue that you do so you can be passionate sometimes you can even, even be tenacious. But make sure it's in a constructive way, which takes more time. It's way easier to talk about something in a way that enrages people than it is to talk about it in a way that inspires people. Try to inspire people rather than the going the other way.
[00:44:23] Speaker A: I'm going to ask you one more how question?
Because I feel like I'm just like trying to pull all the practicals out of you today. I love the idea of going past our algorithm. I love the idea of trying to find trusted voices. Obviously the ANT campaign and your work is definitely something that I would push people to and encourage them to learn from you.
But who else? How do we find. You said at the top, you know, you, you read a lot and you listen to a lot of people.
How do we find the right voices that we can trust to kind of research on both sides when it seems like right now everybody just has an agenda. Like, how do we find those truthful, you know, non biased voices?
[00:45:04] Speaker B: It takes Time and the. And campaign has a list of some of the sources that we trust. And these, these aren't necessarily people that we agree with, and that's very important, but it's people that we say, okay, even if I disagree with them, they are thoughtful.
[00:45:20] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:45:21] Speaker B: And they are working in good faith.
And so I think we all need to search out. So I, I've talked about it on my, my podcast several times. Different people. You can re. You can, you can look to, to say, okay, this is. And one of the things that'll tell you that about people is that their whole platform isn't built on how bad the other side is.
We can say that and you might have to mention it, but what are your solutions? And do they involve tearing other people down?
That's one way to say, okay, this is probably somebody I need to take out of my algorithm because it's just going to be reinforced over and over if I, if I don't do that. But yeah, you, you have to look for, and we help people do that. Find sources that are just more impartial or at least give you both sides of the story.
[00:46:06] Speaker A: That's great. And that is so key. I think, first of all, people need to hear. You are allowed to stop following someone. You are allowed to mute them or take them out of your feed if even you loved them at once or you learned from them at one time, but then everything now is negative and divisive. You're allowed to change your mind on them.
But I also love that you said you listen to people that you don't necessarily agree with. I think that is so key, and I want to make sure people are not hearing from this conversation.
Hey, you stop listening to people that you don't agree with. No, it's actually really important so that you know what you believe and why.
[00:46:42] Speaker B: Yeah. And then I would just say this. Focus. It's okay to focus on disciplines that make you.
Because disciplines give us the right habits and so we can be so focused on, like, what is the practical one thing that I can do right now? Or we can say, no, this discipline leads me to better habits, that leads me to better practical outcomes. And so I don't want to be overly focused just on though, you know, the values that we exercise every day lead us to where we need to go on in on practical matters as well.
[00:47:16] Speaker A: What's a discipline that you're. You're leaning heavily on these days?
[00:47:20] Speaker B: One discipline I say is, you know, being able to identify the things that my side or my group gets wrong Right. We can name a thousand things the other side gets wrong.
[00:47:31] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:47:32] Speaker B: Am I doing the self examination? That's a discipline to know what we have gotten wrong in the past and what we can and what we're getting wrong now. Too many people can't really name five to 10 things that their side of the aisle gets wrong. That's the type of discipline, the, the way of thinking that helps you become somebody who can be, I think, an asset in the church when it comes to this type of engagement.
[00:47:57] Speaker A: Yeah, there's a lot of self awareness when it comes to all of this, Justin. Right. A lot of self awareness.
So hopefully we can get, we can move people there.
Before I ask you the last question that I ask everybody, do you think there's something specifically. You know, I believe you're, you're an ordained minister. I'm a pastor. Is there something specifically that church leadership can be doing when it comes to, you know, helping people to find this healthy, balanced space, not be so divisive. Something specific like in our churches on Sunday mornings.
[00:48:33] Speaker B: In the churches on Sunday mornings. I mean, I think as you get to give sermons, we need to give sermons on self examination. I think we need to disciple people towards, to understand.
I'm not here to affirm your ideological or partisan views. I'm actually more here to challenge them, to make sure that you're really searching and understanding how some of these ideologies and partisan ideas fall short of what the gospel is telling you to do.
I think that's a big one.
I think for just in Christian leaders in general, if you bring in ideas that aren't Bible ideas and they might be good ideas, you need to tell people where they fall short of the gospel to, or how they can go wrong. And so one of the things that I saw for a long time was people bringing ideas out of academia, out of other places, straight into the church without biblical scrutiny and not saying this is good in this, you know, to look at it this way, but it could lead us, you know, astray in another space.
Those are all, I think those are all things that can help people again, start thinking, thinking through the issues themselves and not outsource what should, you know, issues that should go through biblical scrutiny and just kind of thinking that that's the way to go because that's the way that their party or whatever circle of group think they're in has pushed them towards.
[00:49:54] Speaker A: Yeah.
Keep it rooted in scripture. Keep it rooted in Jesus.
Yes. All right, well, Justin, last question for you, because the podcast is called Becoming Church how can the people listening become the church to the people around them?
[00:50:09] Speaker B: I'm gonna. I'm gonna stand. Stand on my soapbox again. I'm gonna say being deliberate about building relationships with people you disagree with, not accepting that the church is just going to be divided and that's the way it is, but saying no.
God told us to come together, and we, our witness is a lot weaker to out to people outside the church when they know good and well that we can't even come together and work together within the church.
[00:50:38] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that that witness is so key because how can people trust us when we tell them about who God is or how good God is or why life with Jesus, like you said, is. Is more hopeful or better if they see us infighting and like, we're not even doing the things that we're telling them. So that is key, key element there.
Well, Justin, thank you so much. I will link up the. And campaign and your books, both of your books, as well as your event in Charlotte that you're doing in case people are local and wanting to listen. But thank you so much for being here with us today.
[00:51:13] Speaker B: Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
[00:51:19] Speaker A: I hope this episode brought you a healthy combination of both practical application as well as the encouragement to lean into those disciplines that will keep you moving forward as you follow the way of Jesus. May we as the church, both institutionally and personally, be humble and compassionate and curious enough to lead the way.
Justin will be in Charlotte on June 6 for a call to unity as the church in race, culture and politics. Tickets are only $10 and write. Right now you can get two for the price of one. This will be a night of worship, hearing more from Justin, and an opportunity for you to ask him any questions that I might have missed here. The link is in the show notes, so just scroll down to get it. We would love to see you there. Until next time, thanks for listening and keep becoming the church of the people around you.
