Zach Lambert: Better Ways to Read the Bible

[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Mauchar Young, and my guest today is Zach Lambert. Zach is the pastor of Restore Austin in Texas, which is surprising since he got kicked out of both his Christian school and his youth group. I'll let Zach tell you his own stories. Here is our conversation. Zach, welcome to Becoming Church. [00:00:41] Speaker B: Thanks, Kristen. I'm so excited to be here. [00:00:43] Speaker A: Yes. I love that we're vibing with our matching bookshelves in the back. [00:00:48] Speaker B: Yeah, only the coolest people have color coded bookshelves. [00:00:51] Speaker A: Hey, I like that. I'm not sure if it's true or accurate, but I'm going to go with it. [00:00:56] Speaker B: But we're the only two here, so we get to decide. [00:00:59] Speaker A: That's right. Zach, you are a pastor at Restore Austin now. This is a church that you started. [00:01:06] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, a small group of us, but yeah. [00:01:08] Speaker A: Okay. And so how long has it been going? Or maybe the better question is and. Or what made you think, like, oh, we need another church here? [00:01:17] Speaker B: Great question. Yeah, it started. We launched it in February of 2016. So we're coming up on 10 years, um, which is really exciting. Yeah. Wild time to start a church in 2016. [00:01:28] Speaker A: I'm not kidding. You said 2016, and I almost said, oh, you guys are new. And then you said 10 years, and I went, wait, hold on a minute. [00:01:34] Speaker B: Oh, I know the last decade has been a blur in a lot of ways. Yeah. I think what made us want to start something new was that we felt like there were lots of churches. You know, we're in Austin, Texas, but Texas, the United States more broadly. Lots of churches for people who, like, are really excited about going to church, but not a lot of churches for people who are really trepidatious about going to church or traumatized from church. And so we really set out as. That's even where the name came from. We wanted to help restore people's faith in Jesus in the church. And we again, like, very unapologetically said, this is a church for people who have had a hard time with church, don't feel comfortable in normal church spaces, all that kind of stuff. And I would have told you, like, 2014, 2015, we're getting everything rolling. That feels like a very niche group. But now it's like, I mean, every conversation I have, people have, you know, tough experiences with church or faith or something. So it's definitely. The mission has not broadened but the kind of, you know, target audience, so to speak, sadly, is even bigger than it was when we started. [00:02:42] Speaker A: Well, that's beautiful. I love that. And it's very much the heart of our church Mosaic. And just this podcast, I mean, it's funny because the podcast is called Becoming Church, but I've. This is church for a lot of our listeners who, exactly like you said, have experienced church hurt or they've walked away from the church, but for some reason they still trust me and people like you that I have on here to kind of point them to God and show them, you know, who Jesus is in a different way. So. [00:03:09] Speaker B: Absolutely. [00:03:09] Speaker A: Excellent. Well, glad you're here. I want to know a little bit about your church background. And I mean, like, like way back, like, did you grow up in church? I want to know your whole, your whole spiritual journey, Zach. [00:03:22] Speaker B: I'll try to encapsulate it in a couple of minutes. I grew up Southern Baptist here in Austin. I grew up in a Southern Baptist megachurch called Great Hills Baptist Church. My grandparents were early members back before it was a megachurch. My dad grew up in it. I grew up in it. So I'm a third generation Austinite, third generation Southern Baptist megachurch kid. And that's really all that I. All that I knew for a long time. My parents were also in vocational ministry. They worked for the Fellowship of Christian Athletes. Fca. That's a. Yeah, non profit Christian nonprofit organization. My dad started the Central Texas chapter about 36, 37 years ago right when I was born. And so, yeah, I grew up. That's all I, All I knew was, you know, church three days a week, FCA the other four. And it was, it was really our whole lives and all of our social circles and all of those kinds of things. I went to Christian school, um, K through 4th was when I was officially kicked out of the private Christian school that I went to. [00:04:27] Speaker A: What do you mean? Well, like, is that a joke? [00:04:31] Speaker B: No, it's a real. It's a true story. My. I've been kicked out of a lot of things. I always joke that should have been the book title is about how many things I've been kicked out of. But, yeah, I went to a school where you had automatic expulsion for being sent to the principal's office six times in a six weeks. And I went, I went eight times. Once. And they gave me a little grace, you know, but it was just, yeah, I was just mischievous and bored and yeah, I was also a kid that, you know, got like, picked on a lot and you know, we all have kind of fight flight, freeze responses. And I was definitely more of somebody, like, if I got picked on, I, you know, pushed back or stood up or whatever. And so I just got in trouble all the time because a lot of times it's like the second person who gets caught, you know. [00:05:16] Speaker A: Sure, yeah. [00:05:18] Speaker B: And so, yeah, I got kicked out of that. I also got kicked out of my church's youth group. We had transitioned from the Southern Baptist megachurch to another Southern Baptist church that was closer to our home. Smaller, but exact same kind of vibe. And, yeah, I tell this whole story in the book, but I got pulled aside during a Bible study. I got sent in the hallway during a Bible study because I was really questioning. I'll tell the very short version of it. So it was around Easter time. Our youth pastor was talking about how when Jesus was on the cross, he said, you know, father, Father, why have you forsaken me? And that was because God had, you know, turned his back on Jesus because God can't be around sin. And Jesus had all of our sin on him. And so, you know, God couldn't even just stand to look at him. And, you know, my seventh grade hand shot up in the air. And before even being called on, I was like, you say that God is, like, really good and kind and a good father, but he, like, turns his back on his son and his, like, time of greatest need. And also, like, he can't be around sin. Like, can he be around any of us then? Because, like, we all, you know. And the response was, go sit in the hallway. Which was a frequent response to my questions and unsolicited comments. And so I got sent in the hallway and. But that time it was different. When my parents picked me up, my youth pastor pulled us all aside and said, you know, your son is disrupting my Bible studies. He's causing other kids to doubt their faith, and he is no longer allowed to be a part of this youth group. [00:06:47] Speaker A: And so listen, Zach, there's no independent thinking in this church. Don't you know? [00:06:53] Speaker B: Absolutely not. And you make a really good point. I mean, I. You know, fundamentalism, it has to protect the boundaries, you know, or it doesn't work. Right? So you can't tolerate questions. You can't tolerate even diverse thinking, Right? Like, if the boundaries of fundamentalism break down, the whole thing breaks down. And so I understand now why it was so rigid. Obviously, then I didn't. And I had this kind of dualistic response where on one hand, I was so excited to be kicked out because I hated going to church and my parents made me. But on the other hand, I think something that I excavated later, through a lot of therapy and introspection was there was a part of me that was pretty devastated in the sense that this thing that was most important to everyone that I knew, you know, my parents, my community, my teachers, my, you know, everything, this thing that was most important to them. I felt like I'd been explicitly told, you can't be a part of this. You know, if you're going to be who you actually are, you are not welcome in this space. And I think fast forward, I think that's why I've become someone who is so passionate about making space for everyone. Our church's motto is that everyone has a seat at the table, um, and that anyone can experience the extravagant love of Jesus. And because I experienced that push because of questions and things like that. But then I started meeting people who experienced that exclusion because of something intrinsic about them. You know, age, race, gender, socioeconomic status, sexual orientation, things like that. And I began to really, you know, I had. I had a little bit of empathy, although not fully understanding it because of the body that I inhabit. But empathy and being excluded from a space that you wanted to be a part of, and that was really difficult. But I'm. I'm grateful for it now to see how God has used it to make sure that we stay committed as a church to, you know, pulling out chairs for anyone who wants one. [00:08:46] Speaker A: Yeah. It's so funny. I feel like there's so many of us who are doing that hard work, right. Of, like, fighting for the inclusion of all people who have some kind of story like that of. Of us, ourselves not being included. And then God is like, hey, I know this sucks, especially as a teen, but, like, one day I promise it's gonna be. It's going to be worth it because I'm crafting a heart in you that, like, is necessary and needed and that a lot of people don't have. [00:09:13] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And I'm. And it's nice to be grateful for it on this side. And, you know, I think to connect it to scripture, you know, I think that's, to me, what Romans 8:28 means, that God works together all things for good. I don't think that all things are good. Some things are really, really terrible and tragic, but that. That God makes a way for things to be transformed into goodness. And I'm grateful to have experienced that in my life and church. [00:09:39] Speaker A: So I'm guessing that from moving from the SBC to now restore Austin. You may be like, I don't know, Zach went through a couple of faith shifts or rethinking, like, what you believed. Would you say that's true? [00:09:53] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. For sure. I think a deconstruction and reconstruction process, people use all different kinds of languages for it, but for me, it was. It was a disentangling of. Of my faith. And the way I always describe disentangling or deconstruction is that when something we believe comes into conflict with something we experience, we have to figure out how to reconcile those two things. And so, again, fundamentalism, or much more kind of stringent expressions of faith will tell you, ignore your experience. That's not true. What's true is what we've told you is true. And then I think there is also a danger on the other side of just kind of saying, well, I had this one specific experience myself, and so I'm going to now, you know, broad brushstroke, every single other thing that's connected to that. [00:10:39] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:10:39] Speaker B: I think the truth and the Gospel, honestly, is somewhere in the middle of those things where we say, well, this thing, it has to be somewhat true because I've experienced it directly. Maybe it's not true for everyone, but it's true for me. How does that intersect with this belief system that I had? And thankfully, I think that drove me back to scripture and back to actually a deepening of faith to say, I want to dismantle and discard the things that are harmful, but I don't want to stay there. I also want to rebuild something. And again, a pretty core part of what we talk about as a church as well, helping people move through that process. [00:11:15] Speaker A: Yeah. There's so much wisdom I want to pull like this, that one sentence where you're like, it's somewhere in the middle. Like, it's not just experience, it's not just this, because I can apply to so many things. Before we get to your view of the Bible, specifically, when I learned that you and your wife met and married really young, I. This question popped into my brain because a lot of people that are listening are going through, some going through, have gone through, are at some point of like, deconstruction, reconstruction, you know, detangling. But being that you married your wife so young, I imagine that you went through part of this, like, while you were married to her. [00:11:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:11:55] Speaker A: What was that like? Because surely you didn't all come to the same conclusions at the exact same time. [00:12:00] Speaker B: That would have been nice. Yeah, right. That did not. That did not happen. Yeah, we, we met in sixth grade, started dating at 17, got married at 21. So we' been together most, you know, for 20 years now. And yeah, when we started dating as 17 year olds, we were both still very much a part of fundamentalist churches, specifically kind of Southern Baptist churches. My first two church jobs were at Southern Baptist churches. One a beautiful local expression outside of Abilene that, you know, had its problems and I had theological quibbles with, but was really a truly, like, supportive place in a rural environment where people really needed this kind of community centric thing and was honestly one of the more radically inclusive spaces I've ever been in, even if they had some theological limitations. But then going into seminary, I worked at one of the largest churches in America, a Southern Baptist church in the Dallas area. And in my early 20s, and so that was the first few years of our marriage. I was there. And that's, you know, starting at that job and then starting at seminary at the same time. My wife at the same time starts graduate school. She's a speech therapist. And that was where we probably did some of the heaviest deconstruction reconstruction, disentangling. And it was not smooth. I mean, it was really, really hard. And there were times where it felt like she was way out in front of deconstructing and reconstructing some things. And I was really freaked out by that. And there were times where it reversed and it felt like I was really out there about something and it freaked her out. Yeah, but we just kept coming back to. We have made this commitment as partners to each other. And regardless of where we may end up in this kind of deconstruction reconstruction journey, we want to do it in partnership with each other. And thankfully we've, you know, all these years, fast forward, ended up in very similar places. But I will say that we do experience God in very different ways. She's certainly someone who experiences God most vividly outdoors in nature and her garden and I mean, all this incredible stuff. I joke that I'm an indoorsman, you know, and I like, I really, I love to read and to speak and, you know, those kinds of things. And she reads too. I'm not saying she does it, but we just, you know, the depth. I think my engagement with God a lot of times is more kind of like intellectual where hers is a little bit more experiential. And again, that used to freak both of us out, but now it's something that we've grown to appreciate about each other and it actually challenges the other one to grow in ways that maybe we wouldn't have without that partnership that's. [00:14:42] Speaker A: I think, helpful for people that are listening, that maybe are in that space. Do you have any advice or encouragement, maybe is a better way to say for people that are like, cool, but we're landing in different places, and maybe that's like a broad landing in different places. Maybe it's on a specific issue. [00:14:59] Speaker B: Yeah. My advice would be to stay curious, to lead with curiosity with your. And this is true with your parents, your partner, friends, loved ones. Almost all of us have people in our lives, in the innermost circles of our lives, who believe very different things from us, theologically, politically right. It's just a product of being a human. I think if we will lead in those conversations with curiosity, if we will ask genuine questions, not looking to rebut or retort, not looking to change minds, but actually trying to learn, that will really change how we engage. And because the truth is, people have come to an ideology or theology or political opinion because of some set of reasons. You know, they have a story, right. And it could be because of their place of origin, you know, their. Their. Their family, their church, but a lot of its experiences. It's what we've walked through, especially adults. It's what we've walked through that has led us to this place. And so I always tell our congregation that one of the reasons I think God is so gracious to all of us is because God knows each of our stories. And if we would be curious to learn other people's stories, and I think we'd have a lot more grace about where they end up. And so, yeah, I think if you can lead with curiosity, learn people's stories, then I think that will actually help you realize that maybe landing in the same place is not that bad of a thing, you know, and it can actually maybe enrich your lives in some really beautiful ways. [00:16:36] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, thank you for pointing out, too, that it's. That applies to so many relationships. That really is true. Hey, I want to break in really quick to tell you that in the rest of this conversation, Zach is going to mention a variety of ways to read the Bible, interpret the Bible and understand the Bible. I don't want you to be overwhelmed. Just as some people have a relationship with Jesus for decades, while others are just now beginning to figure out what it looks like. The same is true with digging in and understanding the Bible. If you're not ready to go past the first level of just opening it and reading it, for yourself for the first time, Zach will have some practical tips for you. But if you're intrigued and wanting to explore on a deeper level, I've linked up all kinds of additional resources for you. In the show Notes, you'll find other podcast episodes, other books, sermons, and websites you can use to learn more about the text themselves. Some are more beginner level, and others might blow your mind a little bit. If you're ready to go there, Remember, there is no right level to achieve and no timeline on how quickly you have to dive in. I've listed them from lightest to deepest. So if you try one and you're like, I'm not ready for this yet. It's okay. God is going to speak to you through the text, no matter what your current Bible literacy level is. Well, you have this little beauty that I have right here. This is your first book, right? [00:18:07] Speaker B: It is, yes. [00:18:08] Speaker A: So exciting. Better ways to read the Bible. So your goal says transforming a weapon of harm into a tool of healing. Zach, I'm assuming, as I've read through a little bit of this, that you had your own perspective shift on the Bible. So will you tell us a little bit about how that happened? [00:18:24] Speaker B: Absolutely. I think that in the spaces I grew up in, the Holy Trinity, in all practicality, was Father, Son and Holy Bible. You know, we. We were not. We were not a church that really delved into any kind of deep spirituality, whether that was personal or communal. Yeah, but we, man, we value God's word, you know, and in a lot of ways, I'm super grateful for that being, you know, given to me. It was. It's a gift in the churches that I grew up in, this. This deep desire to read and understand Scripture. Now it was done come to realize through some interpretive lenses that I've found to be pretty harmful and problematic, which I talk through extensively in the book. But I would say where it really started to shift again, like all deconstruction, when something you believe comes into conflict with something you experience. I saw the Bible used, weaponized, really against people and pushed them away from church, from faith in God, from the way of Jesus. And I just began to logically ask, okay, if this thing is actually supposed to be a tool that leads us toward God and love of God and love of neighbor. But for a large group of people that I'm experiencing directly, including myself, it's leading us away from this, then there has to be some disconnect. There has to be some problem. And so that caused me to kind of reengage the text in some different kind of ways. And then obviously you also have the intersection of like, I'm going to seminary, I'm being mentored by people who, you know, engage with scripture differently than I had as, as a, you know, adolescent. And so I began to see all these different perspectives and these really kind of like, you know, faith filled, Jesus loving people come to different conclusions about biblical texts that I had thought were, you know, singular in their understanding. A way that I heard it. I'm doing a doctoral program right now at Duke, and I had a class at an Old Testament a couple of semesters ago that was co taught by a Christian Old Testament scholar and a Jewish Old Testament scholar. And we're talking about the differences between the ways that Christian and Jews read the Old Testament Hebrew scriptures. And we're talking about the Christian tradition, not all of it, but a lot of the Christian tradition. The way we think about the inspiration of Scripture, meaning God's involvement in the kind of, you know, writing or whatever of the text, the reason it's kind of holy or inspired by God is because each text has one singular meaning. That's how we know God's involvement. And I remember the rabbi saying, we think the exact opposite of that. Like we think God has inspired the text because there are so many beautiful meanings to it, so many truths and applications that can come from a singular text. And the diversity that comes out of engaging with it in this kind of midrashic way that, that Jews do that. I began to kind of like delve more into that as a way of engaging with the text. And so that began to change kind of everything is how I looked at the Bible. [00:21:38] Speaker A: Yeah. Did you, in that class, did they teach you about the, the idea of like the, the turning of the gem? [00:21:44] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:21:45] Speaker A: It's my favorite thing for the listeners. I'll explain because I, this like blew my mind too when I learned about basically and I've preached on this. But it's like if you picture scripture as a diamond, a big diamond, and as the light comes in, you know, it refracts out one way and then you twist it like the tiniest amount and it refracts in a different direction. And that's, that's how Jewish rabbis see the meaning of Scripture is that, yeah, one thing can have a thousand different meanings. And I was like, the same blew my mind at first. [00:22:13] Speaker B: It's a game changer. [00:22:14] Speaker A: How can I be certain about what that meant? Oh wait, maybe that's not the point. [00:22:20] Speaker B: That's not the point. But, but you know, a point I make in the book, though, is there are certain interpretations that are better than others. You know, there are better, there are better ways to read it. And I think that we are able to make some of those distinctions. We're all making choices when it comes to how we interpret the text, and we have to evaluate the, the criteria we're using to make those choices. [00:22:43] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, before we talk about the four new lenses that you proposed in your book, I know our worldview is like the lens that we not only read the Bible through, but also that we see the world through. It's so much a part of us that it's hard to even recognize that it's there. How can people even begin to identify, like, what the lens might be that they are reading scripture through? [00:23:07] Speaker B: Yeah. Such a good question. And I think that it's, it's a little bit of a product of. Well, let me, I'll back up and say a little bit about how I first encountered that. [00:23:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:23:20] Speaker B: So I remember in seminary we read, obviously seminary is, you know, intense and how many books you read and things like that. And I was, I had a 120 hour master's program. And so we read, I don't know, four or five books a class or something like that and all. So that's, you know, four or 500 books or something. All, all of the books except four were written by straight white men. And all of them, except for, of course. And I remember not even thinking about that. Right. Like, that didn't even occur to me that it should be a thing. But what actually happened is that one time in a class I had this professor who. One of the four books was a history book by Husso. Gonzalez is a brilliant scholar and we should all be reading much more. Houston Gonzalez, but he introduces. Hey, we're going to read this Husso Gonzalez book. And I just want you to keep in mind that he's, you know, Cuban and he's a Latino theologian, so it's probably somewhat biased and you need to just kind of keep that in mind. And I had this like, realization as like a 22, 23 year old in this class, like no other book in my first two years of seminary has been introduced like that, you know, none of the other ones. Right. But when the Brown man's book was introduced, it was introduced that way. And I was just like, I was floored. Right. And then not long after that, I remember being in our, our library or bookstore, excuse me, at the seminary. And I see these sections on like you know, black theology or Latino Latina theology or feminist theology or things like that. And I'm like, there's not a white theology section. You know, there's not a masculine theology assumed. Exactly. That's the assumed lens. The perspective of a straight, white, able bodied man, specifically men of European descent coming in the theological world is assumed to be normative. And everything else needs a disclaimer. And that was the first time I realized, like, oh my gosh, I actually think we all have a social location. It's not just that everybody else has a social location. I don't. Or people look like me don't. But for a long time, I mean, I did not ever think about being straight or white or male or American or middle class or Christian. I thought that was just like what most people were. [00:25:47] Speaker A: This is the quote unquote norm. [00:25:48] Speaker B: Exactly, that's the norm. Everything else needs a disclaimer, as I said. So that I didn't think that I had any lenses. I didn't think that I was interpreting at all. Now I did have quite a bit of a crisis when I first figured out that I had some lenses. And that came from feeling like, well, I have to take all the lenses off. Like, I have to, I have to approach the text completely unbiased. You know, I have to discount all of my experiences, all my background, all my knowledge, whatever. Thankfully, that lasted for like three days before professor pulled me aside and he was like, you know, you don't have to live in this crisis space. [00:26:23] Speaker A: You're spiraling, you're spiraling, calm down. [00:26:27] Speaker B: And then I began to realize, okay, well, we all have lenses, but we do get to choose which ones that we put on and take off. We get to choose which ones we lean into or which ones we push back against. We're all interpreting, we're all making interpretive decisions without even realizing it. And I think what I would try to help people if that story didn't do it for you, of me figuring it out. What I would try to say is the kind of like one liner I use when people are like, well, I don't think that I have, you know, I'm not interpreting, I'm just reading it. It's just the plain meaning of the text. What I say is that none of us intrinsically understand the historical or contextual parts of the biblical text, right? We are not ancient Hebrews. We are not first century folks living under Roman oppression. We don't, most of us don't fluently speak Greek or Hebrew or Aramaic. Right? We are Reading over the shoulders of that original audience. And here's my biggest point. That original audience didn't even agree on the interpretations of these texts. Right. They argued about them. And so how much more would we have differences of understanding and interpretation? So again, if I think if we can lead, like I said earlier, with curiosity and with humility, then I actually think we can get to a space of understanding that we have lenses and trying to prioritize some over others. [00:27:47] Speaker A: You explain that with so much grace, Zach, which I really appreciate, because like you said, it's not about removing the lenses that we see the world through. It's not about removing the lenses that we read scripture through. It's about acknowledging that they're there and then recognizing what they are. So, yes, as a white person, I'm reading it through the white experience. [00:28:06] Speaker B: Right. [00:28:07] Speaker A: Which then allows us to, I think, when we can recognize it, I will never be able to put on a black lens. Like, I will never be able to do that. [00:28:16] Speaker B: Right. [00:28:16] Speaker A: But I can, with curiosity go, well, I wonder what it would be like for someone else and just begin to question it and just wonder, you know? [00:28:25] Speaker B: Well, and that's the, that's the vital importance of a healthy and diverse community when you're engaging with tech. [00:28:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:30] Speaker B: Right. Because while you or I could never put on, on the, the kind of black experience in America lens, we can be in deep relationship studying the scripture with people who have that inherently. And we can then better understand that lens. And that healthy and diverse community really is invaluable when it comes to trying to engage with the text in healthy ways. [00:28:56] Speaker A: Yeah. And you have to bring a level of humility with that too, because I have been, you know, post sermon or whatever have been had to someone else bring me their lens and say, hey, you made this, this was more narrow than you meant to be. And I had to go, oh, whoopsie. Like, didn't mean to. Let me not get defensive or even try to over explain where I'm coming from, because guess what? Everyone knows where I'm coming from as a majority person. [00:29:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:26] Speaker A: But then to be able to like bring that in for future messages and future. [00:29:30] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:29:31] Speaker A: It's so important. [00:29:31] Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah. [00:29:33] Speaker A: Well, you talk about four new lenses that I just want you to kind of, you know, real quickly unpack and just explain just what they are. So you, your four new lenses are Jesus, context, flourishing, and fruitfulness. [00:29:45] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:29:46] Speaker A: Just give us a quick rundown of those. [00:29:48] Speaker B: Yeah. So Jesus is really this idea that we as Christians, as followers of Christ, we should be interpreting scriptures through the lens of the life, teachings, character of Jesus. Because the kind of historic Christian position is that Jesus is the fullest picture we have of who God is and what God is like, right? Paul talks about that. The Gospels talk about that. And so if we believe that, that Jesus is the fullest expression we have of who God is and what God is like, then if something comes into conflict, right, With. So let's say something is assigned or attributed to God that now comes into conflict with something Jesus has taught or demonstrated. Let me give you an example, right? So you have maybe like the Canaanite genocide in Joshua, where it seems like God has told Joshua to, you know, march around Jericho seven times and then go in and kill every man, woman, child and animal in Jericho, like, to commit full genocide against the Canaanites. And then you have Jesus, the night he gets arrested in Gethsemane, Peter takes out his sword to defend him. He cuts off the ear of the guard. But Jesus not only heals the ear of the guard, he turns to Peter and he says, put away your sword. Those who live by the sword will die by the sword. He disarms Peter and I think thus disarms all of us. And then you have again, texts like, you know, transforming our weapons into plowshares. And, you know, so you have these conflicting understandings of, like, how does God engage with weapons and violence and things like that. And so if these two things are in conflict with each other, does God order genocide? Or does God in Christ disarm people when they try to commit violence on his behalf? Yeah, I. Then if there is kind of a tension there, then I think we have to interpret through the lens of Jesus and say, okay, then this interpretation we've been given of the Canaanite genocide is wrong. And how can we engage with it in a better way? And there are a myriad of interpretations. And again, you know, leaning on some of our Jewish siblings, they have a lot better interpretations of the Canaanite genocide than we might, right? And so I'll give like a couple, for instance. Like, one is we see the Canaanites show up not that long after the supposed genocide and wiping out of all of them. So they didn't actually kill all of them, Right? And so then it's like, is this kind of more of an exaggeration as people are telling history to kind of fluff up, you know, Israel or the Hebrews military, you know, prowess, things like that? Is it possible that this is my favorite interpretation. Is it possible that Joshua thought God told him to do this, to wipe out all of these people. And God did not. Because we have this amazing text in Joshua, you may remember it, where an angel shows up to Joshua and Joshua kind of like, you know, collapses before him and says, are you for us or for our enemies? And the angel of the Lord says, I'm an angel of the Lord. Neither. You know, I belong to God. And so you have this like pretty direct statement of neutrality from God that's like, I'm not on either side here, right? And so again, like, that makes a great interpretation not just for the text and for the Jesus lens, but also for moving forward into. Well, people believe that God told them to commit violence all the time. That still happens today, right? It happened to Joshua. It happens to people today. So anyway, there are a bunch, many. Excuse me for saying this, there are better ways to read the Bible than a lot of the ways that we have been handed. So that's the first one. The second lens is context. And it's really just deeply exploring as much as we can the historical, cultural, literary context in order to help illuminate the author's intent and then to build bridges for those modern applications that I just talked about. Most of us have some understanding of this lens, right? Like if we've been in church at all, we'll say things like, well, this word in Hebrew means this and so this, you know. Or we'll say, well, you may not know this about the way marriages were constructed, you know, but they were basically like, women were essentially sold for dowry to men, you know, women in their early teens to men in their 20s. And so we've mostly heard sermons or read books where, you know, this is talked about. There is an under talked about piece of this that I talk quite a bit about in the book. And that is is genre of literature. We think of the Bible as just one big book, but it's not. I mean, it's a collection of books, it's a library. And it's also a collection of very disparate genres, everything from, you know, historical narrative to apocalyptic literature like Revelation or Daniel. And Rachel Hall Evans has a great book that really delves into this called Inspired, you know, so good, so good. Miss her so much. And so. So genre is something that I think actually is a very underutilized piece of this context lens. Those are the first two, the last two are pretty deeply connected. And the third one is called Flourishing. And it really is this idea that a few different times, Jesus lays out what I would call like a mission statement. Why he as God put on flesh and came to earth. You have it in John 10:10, where he juxtaposes his mission with kind of the evil embodied mission, right? The thief comes to steal, kill and destroy. I have come that people might have life and have it abundantly or experience full flourishing. You have Luke 4, his opening sermon in his hometown synagogue, where he says, I have come to bring good news to the poor and sight to the blind and set the captives free, right? So Jesus's mission is really this mutual flourishing for all people. That's why he says he came. And so if flourishing is God's desire for all of us, then we should be using that as a lens when we evaluate our biblical interpretations. Is this biblical interpretation leading to people's flourishing or is it leading to the opposite? You know, is it, is it causing people to actually be in more bondage, in more pain, experience more trauma? And if that's true, then it should at the very least cause us to reevaluate that interpretation. So I talk a lot about something called liberation theology in this chapter, which is I think, the kind of the difference between where we are and where God wants us to be in flourishing, like the pain and the struggle and stuff that we experience. Liberation theology is the thing that says God wants to set us free from that and set us free to a life in the way of Jesus and to liberation for others and justice, work and all those kinds of things. So that's the flourishing lens. And the final one is fruitfulness. This is, the whole book is very pastoral in that it really came out of people in our church asking like, okay, you just preached a sermon. How did you, how do you know that interpretation? Or how do I read the Bible again, I've been so traumatized by it. Or these old ways of reading the Bible don't work, or is there something else? Is there something better? And then this, this last lens specifically is, is a deeply pastoral lens. And it's called fruitfulness. And again, it's this idea that Jesus said, you will know my followers by their fruit, right? And then we see in Galatians that the fruit of Jesus's spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control. And so we should be prioritizing interpretations that lead to more love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, etc. In US and in the world around us. And we use this really as a filter, not just for Bible interpretation, but we talk about if our, our beliefs and behavior as followers of Jesus should be leading to more fruit, love, Joy, peace, et cetera, in us and in the world around us. And if not, then that means the Spirit, because these are the fruit of the Spirit, not the fruit of our effort, the fruit of our, you know, perfection or anything like that. It's the fruit of the Spirit at work. And so if we're not seeing that fruit, then it's a pretty good indication that the Spirit of God is not at work. And if the Spirit of God is not at work, then it's not the Spirit of God's fault. It's us getting in the way. It's us obstructing the mission of God in the world. It's us not being about the fruit of the Spirit. And so, yeah, I engage with that as a lens to which we, we should be applying especially to some of the interpretations maybe we've been handed that are not leading to flourishing or fruitfulness for people. [00:38:23] Speaker A: And you do a really great job in the book. For people that are listening, they're like, that wasn't enough information. You really do kind of, you know, break it down and unpack those a lot more. So are these four lenses meant to be like, used one at a time? Like, oh, we pick up this one and this one, or are we trying to use them all at the same time? [00:38:42] Speaker B: I think use them all at the same time. It's a great question. I think that they can stand on their own, you know, and they can in the sense that maybe you're reading a text or you're engaging with an interpretation you've been given and you're like, this really does not fit the context of what's happening, you know, in this. Right. So you just might really be leaning into the, what's happening in the context of what the author's intent was or the genre of book or whatever. And so you're really using that as kind of an identification of a problem. But I also don't think we have to leave it there. I think we can apply other lenses to engage with healthier interpretations. Right. And so a lot of times they work together in the. All right, so the context lens tells me that this is a bad interpretation. You know, it actually doesn't make any sense when compared to what was happening in the world at the time or when I take in the context of the larger picture. Right. So like an easy example of this is the, the subjugation of women in the church. Right. The kind of second class status of women in the church. [00:39:42] Speaker A: Right. [00:39:42] Speaker B: You might grab, you know, somebody might grab a verse from Paul here Or there and say, well, look, Paul says, I do not allow a woman to speak in the church. Right. And so here we're going to build this entire theology off of that. But if you step back and look at context, then you see, right, Paul entrusted Phoebe to deliver the entire Romans letter. She was the preacher, Right. He calls Junia not just an apostle, but outstanding among the apostles. Right. So Paul didn't even ascribe to this, like, one sentence that we've taken out of context. Right. And so that context lens helps us diagnose that as a. A problem. But then we can go back and say, what would be a more a healthier interpretation that would lead to people's flourishing? What would be a healthier interpretation that would lead to more fruit of the Spirit? And then we can also have, like, an imagination for something better. So I like to see them working in tandem to both diagnose problems and to excavate something more beautiful. [00:40:40] Speaker A: Is there again, I know, I know the book unpacks it, but is there a practical that you can hand people right now that are like, how do I start reading the Bible differently? Like, how do I start doing this? [00:40:51] Speaker B: Yeah, the easiest practical thing, and this is going to sound super simple, but we really don't do it. Is if you will just read the chapters around whatever verse is being brilliant tip. You know, talked about, like. Yes, because of. Because I mean, most people probably know this, right. But the Bible wasn't originally written with, like, chapters and verse, numbers and subheadings and all those things. It wasn't written like that. Yeah, like. Like the New Testament, letters were letters, you know, like, Paul didn't put all these, like, numbers on them. And but we're like, okay, let's study, you know, Galatians 3, 10 and 11, and we're going to preach on that today. And if you have a check in your spirit right about, like, I don't think this is actually leading to anybody's flourishing. This is not. This doesn't seem loving or joyful or kind or at all. Then allow that check in your spirit to drive you to the text and say, what's happening around those verses that maybe can help me better understand what the actual intent was. I'll give you a really easy example of this, again, connected to a verse that's often used to subjugate women in the home, which is in Ephesians 5, right, where Paul's doing the household codes. And he says, you know, wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. And so I believe it's 5. 22. And what you have, especially in the ESV Bible, which is there's a whole backstory to how we got the ESV Bible. And it was really written in response to the niv, incorporating more general, neutral language. Like, instead of saying man for mankind, they would say man and woman or things. Things like that. It's actually. It was actually a better translation, but the ESV authors got really mad because they're kind of the classic, you know, manhood and womanhood subjugation of women people. So they get really mad, and they fast track the ESV to essentially try to codify, theologically, try to baptize female subjugation in both the church and the home. And so what they did in the ESV is that they put a. A subheading in between Ephesians 5:21 and Ephesians 5:22, so that it looks like Ephesians 5:22 starts this whole new section about, like. And I think, you know, it's called, like, God's Desire for Households or something like that. That's the subheading that they inserted. But if you like Ephesians 5. 21 says, Submit yourselves to another, to one another, out of reverence for Christ. Right? So what Paul's teaching in the entire Ephesians 5 is mutual. So submission that we're supposed to be submitted to one another. And then in 22, through the rest, he says, like, okay, this is what it looks like if a wife is submitted to a husband. It's what it looks like if a husband submitted to a wife, children, all that kind of stuff. Right? But it all is. Is predicated on 5 21, which says submit to one another because you're trying to follow Jesus. But they literally moved that outside. And so you'll hear a lot of, you know, to. To. To be blunt, sexist preachers preaching Ephesians 5:22 and never engaging with Ephesians 5:21. So if you feel that check in your spirit, go back and read, and you'll inevitably find something like, oh, this is actually about mutual submission. [00:44:08] Speaker A: Yeah, that's really good. That is such a. You're right. It seems simple. But I think a lot of us were not taught to read the Bible that way because, yeah, we're given, we're handed. Even if you're doing a Bible study or you're doing a devotion, it's like, here's. This is your passage to read. [00:44:23] Speaker B: Yep, exactly. [00:44:24] Speaker A: You know, go before and after. Love that, Zach. Well, here's a question for you. You and I are both active on social media as well as many of our listeners and even people that are not. They're in conversations like you mentioned earlier, with likely people who don't necessarily see eye to eye on everything that, that they're seeing. There are, I don't know if you're aware of this. I am for sure. People that like to come in and just throw, you know, random scriptures like Bible bombs. I'm laughing because obviously you're aware of this. What would you say to somebody who's trying to use context and use all of these new lenses, but all they are getting in return is like quote unquote, Bible bombs being thrown at them? [00:45:10] Speaker B: Yeah. Who. I would say that social media is not the best place to have nuanced biblical conversations. Correct. And so that's where I'd start. You know, I'd say try to not engage with Bible bombers. P.S. i love that. I'm going to totally steal that. That's fantastic. Bible bombs is fantastic. Yeah, you don't have to engage with Bible bombers, but also don't be a Bible bomber. You know, even if you feel like your cause is just and righteous, like dropping one verse, you know, usually now sometimes it's just like so clear, you know, somebody's like, I hate this person in the name of God. And you're like, well, listen, Jesus said the most important thing is to love God and love your neighbor. Sometimes it's enough, you know, but, but really the, the, the deepest premise of the book is that we should not be using the Bible as a weapon, like to try to hurt people, to try to win arguments, to try to make ourselves feel smarter or higher or anything else than anybody else. And so that's, number one is, I would just say social media is not really built for this. Number two, don't be a Bible bomber, even if you feel like your cause is just. And then number three, I got this advice years ago online where somebody said you do not have to take every homework assignment that a random person gives to you online. Right. And you know, there's this hilarious tweet where somebody says, basically like, I've, I've known you for 10 seconds. I haven't liked any of them. I'm not going to like engage with your bad faith question and your Bible bomb. Right. You don't have to take homework assignments from people when people are like, I'm going to drop a one verse Bible bomb in there, you do not have to engage. I think that's one of the big lies of social media is that you are responsible for addressing every single thing that is said to you on a post or is commented back to you, when in reality, the reason you get those little notifications and the pings and the reason that the algorithms prioritize those types of comments is because it keeps you on the platform and responding and responding and getting feedback and putting more in and Bible bombing each other. And that's how they make money, is when everybody stays on the app. So just know that you don't have to do that. You can choose to step away. You can delete comments. You know, like, I tell people on Facebook all the time, people are like, gosh, this person put this, like, really bigoted response on my. On my thing. I don't know what to do. Like, what should I say? And I'm like, delete it. You know, if they do it again, block them. [00:47:49] Speaker A: Block them. [00:47:49] Speaker B: Like, yeah, I've. I've sent people notifications where they'll be like, messages, you know, where I'll be like, hey, if you do this again, like, I'm going to block you. You know? And they're like, you don't want any good faith conversations and dialogue? And I'm like, actually, like, I would love good faith conversation and dialogue. You're not doing any of that. [00:48:07] Speaker A: What, you're providing for me here? [00:48:08] Speaker B: Yeah. At all. So, yeah. You don't have to engage. I think it's a big piece of that. [00:48:13] Speaker A: That's it. What about if it's in real life? Oh, same advice. Still don't engage. [00:48:18] Speaker B: Wow. Gosh, that's such a difficult thing, because so much of it depends on the situation. Right. You know, like, who's the person? I would say if. If a stranger is approaching you and. Which has happened to me a couple of times. And like, we were bowling a few months ago, and I'm with my kids. I got two boys. They're 10 and 6. And we get this lane, and we're starting to bowl. And this guy who's also with his family is like, in the. You know, sometimes you, like, share a ball return thing. [00:48:50] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:48:51] Speaker B: And he's like, you're Zach Lambert, right? And I was like, yeah. And he's like, I disagree with everything that you put online. And I was like, okay. And he tries to. Yeah, okay. He, like, tries to, like, bait me into this. And I'm like, bro, we're here with five kids between us, you know, like, let's just bowl and, like, not talk anymore. And so it's sometimes in those situations, you don't have to engage. But sometimes it's like a. A parent or a friend or a loved one or something. And I go. I think I'd go back to what I said earlier, which is you can really just listen, ask questions, be curious, try to get to the thing beneath the thing. You know, if somebody feels like they're sharing something really outrageous, you can say, how did you. Where'd you hear that? Or how did you come to that conclusion? And maybe push back against it at some point. But again, I just think you don't have to. You know, you don't feel like you have to change every person's mind. The best demonstration of your faith in Jesus and you are following the way of Jesus is not going to be an argument that you have. You know, it's going to be the way that you live your life, the way you love people, the way you care for people, doesn't mean. I mean, I'm obviously not saying you shouldn't speak up. Use your voice. I believe in that massively. But you also don't have to take every piece of bait that's dropped in front of you. Yeah. [00:50:13] Speaker A: Yeah, that's good. Is there a story, Zach, as you've studied the Bible and learned to read it in a new way, is there a Bible story that you've, like, fallen in love with through a new interpretation, maybe different than how you were taught in youth group before you got kicked out of the class? [00:50:30] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah. My wife calls it the Parade of Expulsions. Just like, was my teenage years and just getting kicked out of so many things. Yeah, there is. There is one. It's kind of obscure, and I think that's maybe why I really like it. It's the story of the widow's might, which is. Most people have heard that story, but it's. It's the story where there's this woman that comes to the temple and she gives her last two coins. [00:51:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:51:01] Speaker B: And the traditional interpretation of that is that she has given her last two coins and she's given everything. You know, her. Her generosity knows no bounds because Jesus makes this statement. Other people have given out of their abundance, but she's given all that she has. [00:51:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:51:18] Speaker B: And so the typical interpretation of that is that we should give all that we have. You know, it's. It's a great capital campaign verse, you know, and. But. But then I tell the story in the book. I had this encounter with a dear friend who goes to Restore. We went to coffee. She was like, I got to talk to you about something. That's really bothering me. So we go to coffee, and she tells me about her grandparents, who she visits on occasion. And they're deeply involved in church. And the last time she went to visit them, their power was off, and they didn't have, like, much food in the fridge and the pantry and things. And they're on a fixed income and have been for years. And she says, like, what's going on? And they said, well, our pastor said, like, the church is running low on. On money. And he told this story of the widow giving her last two coins. And so we knew that it was maybe going to put us in a tough position, but, you know, she gave her last two coins, and we should give everything that we have, too. And my friend, understandably, you know, freaks out, calls the church, yells at the pastor, and rightfully so. I was fully supportive. [00:52:21] Speaker A: You're manipulating my grandparents. Come on. [00:52:24] Speaker B: But over coffee, she looks at me with tears in her eyes and she says, is that a real story? Like, you know, And I realized, like, this interpretation that I've taken completely for granted of that story, when carried to its rightful end, leads to some really terrible things, you know, and so how do we engage with that story in a much better way? And again, if you read the section around, feels very abrupt, that story, because it kind of starts at the beginning of a chapter and then just kind of ends and Jesus starts doing some other stuff. But if you read the chapter before, Jesus is in the temple with his disciples, some of his closest friends, and he points out a handful of the temple leadership who were in cahoots with the Roman Empire. And he talks about how they exploit the poor and specifically how they, quote, devour widows houses and basically line their pockets with the money of people who don't have any money at all. And then the widow comes through, and Jesus says, all these other people gave out of their abundance, but she gave all they have. He makes no, it's. It's not a positive comment. You know what I mean? He's not endorsing it. What he's. He's pointing out after this whole diatribe about how religious leaders have been exploiting people like her, he says, look, there's one of them right there. [00:53:49] Speaker A: See it happen. [00:53:50] Speaker B: She's being exploited. It's happening right in front of us. And if we would actually, like, practice generosity the way that Scripture outlines for us to practice and tithe. In the Old Testament, there was a portion of it that went specifically to the poor in the town that essentially, like, you know, did like a. A food pantry in every community so that people could come and get food. Then that woman, the widow in the story, and my friend's grandparents would never have gone hungry if generosity was being practiced. Practice correctly. But Jesus is pointing out that this is actually a perversion of it. So, anyway, that's a story that I've come to love and teach a lot because I think it's one of those that we've interpreted traditionally the exact opposite way that Jesus intended. [00:54:34] Speaker A: That's fascinating. I'm, like, making a note. I'm like, I gotta go read this. I gotta go read this for myself. [00:54:39] Speaker B: It's a good story. Yeah. [00:54:41] Speaker A: Well, Zach, last question for you, because the podcast is called Becoming Church. How can the people listening become the church to the people around them? [00:54:49] Speaker B: I love that. I love that question. I love just the heart that you have, Kristen, but also the heart of this podcast. I'm going to connect it back to the flourishing lens that I talked about earlier and say that if we really will buy into these two deep truths. One, that every single person we encounter has been made in the image of God and is deep, deeply loved by God, and number two, that God's desire for them is to flourish in this world, then that will change how we encounter people. You know, it'll change. It'll change how we treat people. That when you lock eyes with someone, you know, like C.S. lewis, you've never encountered a mere mortal, is what he used to say, right? You are only encountering people who deeply loved by God and have been created for this beautiful purpose of flourishing. And that really is the job that we have been given, especially as followers of Jesus, especially as people who are supposed to be praying, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. That we should be people making room for everyone to have a seat at the table, but also making sure that the table is a place where everyone can experience the flourishing that God desires. And that does not have to be in a brick and mortar congregation. You and I are both pastors in churches, and so we, you know, think some churches, at least are great. But, you know, church is not limited to four walls and a steeple and a pulpit and a choir. Church happens around tables and on park benches and at bars, around drinks. And anytime that you can recognize the image of God in someone and persist, pursue their flourishing alongside your own, I think that's when we're becoming church. [00:56:39] Speaker A: That's a beautiful answer, Zach, because it really makes it not so much a to do. Right? We're not adding to people's like, spiritual checklists of like, here's another thing on top of all the other things that you can't seem to get done, but really it is a lens of if you can see people differently, like you're just going to naturally do it. It's just going to happen. [00:57:01] Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah. [00:57:02] Speaker A: Well, friend, thank you so much for being here. This was so great and I hope everyone goes out. Your book is about to come out. Everybody go get it. Better ways to Read the Bible. We'll link it up in the show notes and make it super easy. [00:57:13] Speaker B: Thanks so much, Kristin. Thank you for having me. It was so fun. [00:57:21] Speaker A: You just can't help truly becoming the church and living like Jesus when you see God's people through the lens of love. And I know that by listening to this podcast, you're doing the courageous and sometimes hard work of trying to do just that. I would love for you to share this episode with someone else who's learning alongside you and invite them to join us on social media, not to throw Bible bombs, but to chat about what they're learning as they listen as well. Come and join us at KristenMachler Young and I hope to see you there. Until next time, thanks for listening and keep becoming the church to the people around you.