Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:09] Speaker B: Welcome to Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. I'm your host, Kristin Machler Young, and my guest today is author, actor and creative Maddie Jo Kousert. She's here to talk about her book, God, Sex and Rich People. And in case the title isn't clear enough, this is an episode that you may want to listen to through headphones, especially if you've got kids around, because we are going to talk about purity, culture and the various ways that it shows up in other aspects of our lives.
Even if sexual education happened for you decades ago, I know that it can have lasting effects. So I have linked up additional resources in the show notes. I hope that one of these therapist recommended books or other podcast episodes will help you to better understand why you believe what you do about who you are. And if this episode helps you, I'd love for you to share it with someone else as well. Here's my chat with Maddie Jo.
Hey Maddie. Welcome to Becoming Church.
[00:01:14] Speaker A: I am so happy to be here, Kristen. Thank you for having me.
[00:01:18] Speaker B: Actually, is it, Is it Maddie or Maddie Jo? What do you like to be called?
[00:01:22] Speaker A: Maddie Jo or MJ? The enneagram4inme is like all the Madelines and Madison's took my name, so you can't. I'm not just Maddie.
[00:01:35] Speaker B: I like it. I like it. Okay. Maddie Jo. See this is the problem is we've only ever texted.
[00:01:40] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:01:40] Speaker B: Actually spoken in real life. So I'm like, wait, I've never had to call you by your name before.
[00:01:44] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maddie Jo is great. Yeah.
[00:01:47] Speaker B: Well, listen, as a somebody who had to grow up as Kristin M At school because there was Kristen M and Kristin S and Kristen T. And I get it.
[00:01:54] Speaker A: So. I get it. I get it. Yes. And honestly, it wasn't until college where I was like, where did all these Maddie's came out of the woodwork. Like I was the only Maddie all through. I mean that's probably just the product of being in a very small town. But. But yeah, then I was amongst in my BFA program. I'm not kidding. Like seven other Maddie's that were Madeline's, Madison's, and they all went by Maddie and I.
That just actually is my name. Like it's not short for anything.
And so my. I mean, I suppose like the German derivative is Matild or like Matilda.
[00:02:28] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:02:29] Speaker A: But yeah, that's not my. So anyways, my family always called me Maddie Jo or like Matt. Like I Had all of these names within my, within my family, my immediate family. But then, yeah, once I got to college, I was like, okay, that's it. Everybody else has to call me Maddie Jo.
[00:02:45] Speaker B: Like it?
I like it. Well, I won't start the whole interview over, but I will call you Ma, Joe or Matt. That's really cute.
[00:02:52] Speaker A: Yeah, Matt's. Yeah, I love it.
[00:02:54] Speaker B: Well, you mentioned that you are from a small town. Why don't you tell us a little bit about your childhood and the faith that you grew up with.
[00:03:02] Speaker A: Yeah, so I grew up in Branson, Missouri, which, if any of your listeners know Branson, it is a kitschy, cutesy little place. It's funny, I explain it in my book as if Nashville and Vegas made a baby that instead of loving bachelorette parties and gambling, loved like patriotism and Jesus.
That's pretty much Branson. So it's like all good, clean fun, you know, but it's lots of country music, lots of live entertainment, sort of like copy paste. Your traditional tourism town where there's a lot of mini golf, there's a lot of like arcades, go karts, theme parks. But it also has this beautiful aspect of it in the Ozarks. So I, there was lots of outdoorsy, like lakes and hiking and lots of that. So I actually loved growing up there. It was like, yes, it was definitely a small town, but there was enough going on that, you know, we, we didn't just have to. I mean, we did plenty of hanging around at Walmart, don't get me wrong. But like, we could just go. We could go to a theme park, you know, we could go ride, go karts. So it was a, it was really fun place to grow up. My dad was a pastor, so a lot of my childhood and adolescence was really dictated by his position at, at the whims of whatever Baptist church decided he was welcome or unwelcome. Which it's just like a lot of politics and a lot of, I say, like just bored people ruining other people's lives.
And so he was like, he would be at churches for, for a long period, like a decent amount of time, right? Like three or four years. And then would get the boot for whatever political reasons. And. But then we landed.
[00:04:54] Speaker B: That's because they were. Because of your denomination.
He just had to go wherever they placed him. Is that right? He didn't get really the choice of like, where to go.
[00:05:02] Speaker A: No, it was more he just had to like, wait for the next offer kind of thing. And when I say politics, I don't mean like, my dad was some raging liberal from the pulpit. You know, I.
We have a different idea of what it means to be political in the faith now. I mean, like, my dad was really trying to tout compassion and servitude, and a lot of churches were more interested in being insular and, you know, and not as welcoming of the outsider and things like that. So.
So, yeah, so he. But he did end up at a church where I ended up going that was like my home church for, you know, 15 years.
He was the community pastor, so he was no longer like the head pastor of this church, but he was the one organizing the small groups, you know, like making sure there was community. He led Celebrate Recovery, which was our 12 step program. Lots of community outreach.
So that was.
Yeah, that was pretty much my upbringing between my dad being a pastor and living in a weird place like Branson, Missouri. It pretty interesting.
[00:06:13] Speaker B: Yeah. I also grew up in the Midwest. It's not.
Yeah. Smaller cities though, so not like. Like we lived in the suburbs of Chicago when I was in high school. So like we could ride the train in, but it was still like a special occasion thing, you know what I mean?
[00:06:27] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Our biggest town was like a four hour. Our biggest small city was a four hour drive. So Kansas City and St. Louis were a solid three and a half, four hours from us. Okay. Okay. Yeah.
[00:06:38] Speaker B: So funny. Well, so you grew up, Maddie Jo, with this faith that you liked, right? At the time. You, like, talk to me a little bit more specifically about how that affected you as a child and like the way that you kind of came to see God and Jesus and Christianity and all of it.
[00:06:57] Speaker A: Yeah, I think, like early days, the way that I saw God was just a way to not go to hell, if I'm being honest. Like, I. My grandma died when I was pretty young and I just heard everybody talking about heaven and you know, and hell. I mean, like, really it was. It wasn't hellfire and brimstone like as in your face, but it was obviously enough that I absorbed that. Right. And so then when my grandma passed, I was like, oh, I need to get saved. So, you know, if I, you know, choke on a gummy bear or whatever, I go, I go to heaven.
And then it was also the age of Columbine, so there was a lot of narrative around intruders and the whole, you know, if someone, if an intruder comes in and questions your faith, you know, are you going to go to heaven or hell? Lots of fear mongering. So I would say that was like.
[00:07:50] Speaker B: Not even not even are you going to heaven or hell. But is your faith going to be strong enough that you're going to stand up unprompted and be like, I'm a Christian, take me out if you need to?
[00:07:59] Speaker A: Yes. As a child martyr. Yeah. Seriously, that was, that was it. It was like, oh, child martyr, that's what I am. That was. I was always so scared, scared of intruders.
I had visceral memory memories of that and being like, oh, if I say I don't believe in God because, or I'm not a Christian because I want to live and he shoots me anyway, then I'm going to go to hell. But then if I say I am a Christian, he's going to shoot me and then I die. Like, you know, it was just so scary.
So I would say those were like the earliest memories.
But then as I, as I moved into adolescence and as I mentioned, we got into that church that we were part of for 15 years, that was a non denominational sort of like, you know, copy paste, Saddlebrook, Hillsong kind of vibe.
And just in a smaller community, that is when it really became an exciting part of my life that I felt more personally attached to. It was everything about my life. You know, it was my entire community. I keep using that word, but it just was like, it was my whole social scene. I was in a small group of girls that were at another school, but then I also had a small group within my own school so that I was sort of creating friend groups across different districts. And that was really. There was a lot of connection there. So it was really my whole life and my whole identity. And they, it's, you know, it's complicated, but spent a lot of time reading my Bible. Like I have read the entire New Testament multiple times over.
And so there was a lot of encouragement around under knowing, knowing scripture and then understanding it obviously within the context of whatever our church was like encouraging us how they were encouraging us to understand it. But I did have this, if you call it testimony, transformational moment when I was, I was kind of like high level.
I was going through a really bad eating disorder my freshman year of, of high school. And I really feel like the way in which I was pulled out of my depression or the, the toughest part of that was this spiritual experience that I had with the divine.
And that kind of locked me into, oh, this is, this is real.
And I, and then. So that was this amazing experience I had with this higher power. But then once you have that, it's like the church sort of like co opted that experience and said, okay, but now you have to do all of these things in order to maintain that feeling and that experience, you know. And so I do feel like a lot of my adult life has been sort of getting back to the purity of that experience that I had that doesn't actually have conditions. Because at the time that that happened, I didn't even consider. I was like an atheist. I was super depressed. I did not believe in a higher power. I couldn't understand why I was trying so hard and God wasn't rescuing me, you know, so there are no conditions for that encounter. And yet, yeah, I feel like I've been trying to get back to that.
[00:11:07] Speaker B: Well, you wrote about this and so much else in your book. I've got right here. God, Sex and Rich People, a recovering evangelical testimony. And I'm still going through it, but I just wish I could show you like, all of the places that I have underlined because I'm like, oh my God, I just want to give you a hug because I'm like, yes, me. Yes, me also. Same, same, same.
And so. But you did write, you wrote that this book is for people, like in a niche, but actually really large group.
And so what is one of those niche things, Maddie Jo, that you thought, like, only applied to you until you started talking about it out loud?
[00:11:44] Speaker A: Oh, gosh, the fact that I knew nothing about sex and it was actually just like I.
It was nothing like Sex in the City.
I was just like, this is not an accurate depiction at all. And I felt so. So I felt like, because I was the only weirdo with like, the purity ring and all of that, that like everybody else had something figured out that I didn't. Yeah. You know, like, of course I could go. Well, ostensibly. Right, I could go. Or presumably maybe I could go and talk to, like, women with whom I grew up, but they were all getting married. So then when I felt like I had these things I needed to talk about with them around my sexual experiences, there was a lot of shame. Oh, well, it wouldn't be this way if you had waited, you know, and, and they just were too proud, I guess, to admit that maybe they were also having very bad sex. And none of us really knew that we were what we were talking about. And it.
Yeah, I think that was the biggest thing is I just felt very alone in like, this is not that great. Right.
And no one, and even my peers in New York, they all seem to be having a really fun time and it all seemed to be very flippant And I was like, but everyone's drunk. Like, how can it be good if you're all just drunk for sex? I know it's not good when I'm drunk for sex. Like, that was the piece that was really tough because I didn't feel like I could talk to my friends who could conceptualize how I grew up. And I also couldn't talk to my secular friends who seemed to be just fine with this arrangement that we had culturally. And I was like, I don't. I can't be crazy here. Right, Right.
[00:13:26] Speaker B: Well. And as someone who did it the quote, unquote, right way and waited and all the things same, where I was like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
I was promised this, like, amazing wedding night experience that was, like, you said, sex and the city and movies and all of these things, because God was going to honor the choices that I had made. And then I was. I just like, wait, huh, yeah. You know, is it. And we've had to listen. My husband is amazing, and this is not a reflection of him. It was truly me. And we'll get into this a little bit more.
[00:14:04] Speaker A: Totally.
[00:14:04] Speaker B: But it really was me and my expectations and my mental state and all of the things that purity culture had actually, like, done to.
I thought purity culture was like, I had won. You know, I had, like, won the thing. Like, check me off the list. Because I was a virgin when I got married, I did not realize how much deeper it had gone into my psyche and everything else and how it really does affect, yes, what should be a healthy sex life.
[00:14:33] Speaker A: It was the same for me. Like, once I.
I mean, I really started to peel apart the. The pillars of the purity culture and the theology and everything. That's what I do in this book. But even after, you know, once I got into sexual trauma therapy, which we can maybe dive into a little more later, I was like, oh, this is cellular.
It affects everything.
Is it in? And that's what is. You know, I remember I was on a. On a plane to go do a podcast in Cleveland, and I sat next to this guy and he was like, oh, what? You know, what's taking you to the Midwest? And I. I told him, and I was like, oh, I'm an author and I'm doing this podcast, and it's about. It's a panel discussion about purity culture. And he was like, what's that?
And I was like, oh. And then I, like, told him, because I don't live in a world I do in New York where they don't really understand that. But I was surprised to hear it from someone who was from the Midwest. I was like, oh, doesn't everyone know this? But no. And so I explained him, and he was like, okay, so what's so bad about that?
And I was like, oh, we don't. I don't want to talk about this. This whole flight, you know, flight is.
[00:15:43] Speaker B: Not long enough, my guy, to unpack.
[00:15:47] Speaker A: You can read my book, buddy. You know? And then I'm just thinking, like, man, I hope he probably does have daughters, you know? But, like, that's. That's a good question. What's so wrong with that? That's what we all thought. What's so bad about just, like, saving yourself until marriage? Oh, but it's not just that, right? It's like every part of your value as a human being is, like, tied up in your sexuality.
[00:16:07] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, listen, I was gonna ease people in, but we're here. Let's just keep going.
[00:16:11] Speaker A: Like, honestly, shameless, overshare. I do not understand small talk. I don't know how it works. So, yeah, we're here.
[00:16:19] Speaker B: No, I'm gonna like it. Listen, the title. The title should have given it away. I'm like, maybe we'll have to put a warning on this episode.
[00:16:25] Speaker A: Yeah, honestly, maybe. Yeah. I meant to ask that, like. Oh, is explicit content.
[00:16:30] Speaker B: Yeah, it's okay. We have had, like, Sheila Ray Gregoire has been on, so we've talked about sex on this show before.
[00:16:37] Speaker A: We'll just.
[00:16:38] Speaker B: I'll make sure to let people know to wear headphones.
[00:16:40] Speaker A: Okay. Yes, definitely. Yes.
[00:16:44] Speaker B: So, Maddie Jo, since we're. We've held our breath, we've jumped in. We're into the purity culture part of the conversation.
As somebody who grew up with, like, really strict rules around sex, what is an encouragement that you've kind of discovered that might help somebody else, like, find freedom in sex now, coming out of that.
[00:17:06] Speaker A: Yeah. I think it really.
The nuance of where you are in your journey in terms of. It would dictate sort of what I offer in that moment. If you're. Because they're in. In my market research for the TV show and the One Woman show and all of that, there are these phases of deconstruction, actually, and it all comes down to where you are on the spectrum of curiosity.
And so if we're talking, like, just from the jump, like, oh, I'm having these questions. I've been told scripture says this. I have. Da, da, da, da, da. Then I would be like, okay, here are some books I would offer you to Read about Scripture, about the history, about textual criticism, not apologetics, not even theology. Like, let's just extract you fully out of that. Because is your faith so fragile that it can't.
It can't withstand research, facts, intellect, science. Yeah. Context, Right. No, it's right. Like. And maybe it is. You know, some people come to totally different conclusions. But for me, there was so much freedom in understanding Scripture, more in a more robust capacity, that I was like, oh, yeah, my God is not just this homogenous, evil Santa Claus in the sky just, like, beating us all into submission, you know?
And so anyway, that's where I would start if it were like, people who are just like. But the Bible says what the Bible says.
[00:18:48] Speaker B: Okay, so glad that you did. Because we can't just any topic, it doesn't matter if it's sex or something else, to be able to go from a very legalistic, rigid. I know all the answers. I know what all of this means. Like, the. From that mindset to then being like. But now let me try to nitpick and understand this one time. You can't do it. You can't do it. We have to start at a higher level, trying to maybe, like, let go of some things, understand why we believe what we believe before we can try to really niche down into these topics. So I'm really glad. Thank you.
[00:19:22] Speaker A: I'm really glad that you started there. Curiosity is not judgmental. It's just a question.
[00:19:27] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:19:28] Speaker A: So if the more, like, the more curious you can get and the more you can allow yourself to receive the information and then sort of metabolize it, I think that's really. And look, it's going to be hard because, like, you know, when I was really going through what I call my textual criticism, scriptural spiral, it was hard to learn some of those things because I was like, they lied to me. That's how you know. And. But that's okay. And I think another thing. So then the following step after that is there's this. There's this message within legalistic Christianity, and a lot of people, I think, would maybe think they're not legalistic, but I would even challenge that as you, you know, you get into this curiosity anyway, that you have to.
What's the word I'm looking for?
Confront this idea around relativism. Because relativism is really vilified in Christian circles where it's like, oh, no, you can't just, like, pick and choose. Right? Well, you're being a cafeteria Christian. I'm like, every denomination is a cafeteria Christian, Okay. Everybody does it. Even the writers of the Bible are cafeteria Christians, if you want to use that term. Like, the different gospels are highlighting different qualities of Jesus. Often in our circles, we get this, like, super Jesus who's a conflated version of each gospel. But that's if you read them horizontally, it's not like that. He's kind of very different figures in each one. And so.
Yeah. And again, going back to how we even got the canon right, the Council of Nicaea, why did some script, some texts make it and some didn't. Right. So it's okay to have all of this information and then we're told the Holy Spirit lives within us. Right. So if we have that guidance, which I would say is like intuition, which we can go back to, like, you know, then breaking down. Are you born bad? I don't believe that. Whatever.
So if you have goodness within you that is truly guiding you, then, like, you can also ask for discernment.
And. And it. It doesn't have to be as it can really be. Oh, I'm gathering all this information and I trust myself to move forward. And relativism isn't a sin, it's just a reality. Like, we all live within our various versions of what we think is okay versus what is. I mean, even down to, like, your body is a temple. We were taught that's about sexuality. But if you want to have Casey's donuts and Mountain Dew for breakfast, live your dreams or pierce your ears or.
[00:22:08] Speaker B: Have it get a tattoo or whatever.
[00:22:10] Speaker A: Right, right. So it's all. Yeah, that those would be my two biggest steps. And then.
And then once you're sort of like in a better place about that, then I would offer more broad texts around sexual education.
Right. Like come as you are.
Erica Smith has a book coming out called you deserve to know all about sexual education for people coming out of purity culture.
So those are just like the brass tacks. Basics. Because another thing about purity culture, which I'm sure we'll get into, is like, it does actually lead to a lot of harm because you're. As for women. Because we just don't even know what is okay. Yeah. And what is not okay. Except once we get in the situation, we're like, oh, I think this is not okay. You know, So I would say those are the steps. Scriptural criticism, relativism is okay. Everybody does it, and you can trust yourself. And then brass tack. Sexual education.
[00:23:10] Speaker B: Yeah, I love that. Well, and even just the idea of, you know, I know for me, I would get in Situations where I'm like, hey, I know this is not okay. But I had also never been taught to use my voice or that my kind of like a twofold one that my, like, opinion mattered enough that it, like, mattered. And also to value my. I did not have any self, like a really high self value because I was taught to put everybody else before me.
And so what that ended up happening.
[00:23:40] Speaker A: Was and a quiet and gentle spirit. Yeah, a servant's heart.
[00:23:45] Speaker B: Thank God, literally, that he saved me from what could have really been a lot worse, more dangerous situations. But I. I did find myself in situations where in my mind it's like, hey, stop. I don't. This is not what I want. This is not what I want to be happening. But my. My voice and my confidence were not there because all I taught was like, well, but I don't want to make this person upset. I don't want them to be mad at me. I don't want to. And so then I end up like, wait, hold on. I'm doing damage to myself, or I'm letting damage be done to myself.
Because I was. I believed that it was prideful to want something different for me. And I had never been taught, like, hey, you're allowed to have an opin because you actually matter so much as a person and like, to God and your.
[00:24:34] Speaker A: And it's all connected again. Once I got in sexual trauma therapy, I had this session with my therapist where I basically, I was very. It came out that I was afraid to tell him certain things because I didn't want to hurt his feelings because he's a man and I sort of hate men right now, which was like a whole other thing. I didn't want a male therapist, but I didn't speak up for myself, you know?
And so that's sort of how we went down that rabbit hole. He's still my therap to this day.
He's amazing. He's like so many of my friends therapist. I'm very grateful I got him, but.
But anyway. And he. So then we sort of started to go down that rabbit hole, and he was like, well, do you do that a lot? Do you withhold what you're thinking so you don't hurt people's feelings? And I was like, people's? No.
Men's.
Yes.
And I was like. He was like, well, what do you mean? I was like, well, in general, it's, like, easy for me to be a nice person to people in general, but then I find myself in these situations with men, particularly, where I'm uncomfortable, but I am.
I don't want to hurt their feelings. And it's literally down to, like. I wrote this piece called the 3 train.
I did this. I was in a writing cohort with Linda K. Klein. I don't know if you're familiar with her work.
She wrote this book called Pure, and it's all about. She's kind of like the foremother of purity culture literature.
It's a very clinical slash memoir. Dive into the purity culture move.
Came out in 2017. So, anyway, I wrote this piece called the 3 train, where this man on the train was making me uncomfortable, but I was, like, trying to be nice to him. You know, I was trying to be like. And I kept just being like, hey, I really don't want to talk. Like, I need to focus. I'm preparing for an audition. Kept doing that over and over. It ended with him putting his arm around me, telling me that I was giving him an erection.
Kissed me all because, like, I couldn't be like and scream and make a scene. And then also down to, like, dating. Like, I would go on repeat dates with these guys I knew I wasn't interested in because I didn't want to hurt their feelings. And. And then I would feel bad about cutting it off because I felt like I'd led them on.
[00:26:48] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:26:49] Speaker A: Like, it was just such a mess. I didn't know how to. And then. So my therapist helped me reframe where he was like, so a yes, a no to someone else is a yes to you? And then also, at least within the context of the dating, how could you reframe it that you're actually doing them a disservice by continuing to waste their time when you're not interested? They deserve to be with someone who is wild about them. So free them to go find that person.
It was like. That's what I mean by, like, this is cellular, and it has really bad repercussions, and it is very, like, minuscule as well.
[00:27:27] Speaker B: I also think for females. And tell me if this is your experience, Maddie Jo, but for me, like, again, everything is connected, right? It's all connected. But I was raised in kind of, like, a high honor. Like, you just. You respected, like, dad.
Obviously, there was respect for my mom also. But if it was like. Like, if I had done something and I was gonna be in trouble, dad was gonna be the one to, like, inflict the consequence, you know? So it's like, there was a high honor also just for men, like, for our pastors and for the dad and for all the things. And while that's not necessarily a bad thing, I do think that very, like, clear. Hey, we always, like, respect the men more than the women. Also is still connected to this idea of purity culture. Because, of course, you can't use your voice and say no to a man.
[00:28:11] Speaker A: A man.
[00:28:12] Speaker B: They deserve our respect.
[00:28:14] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. And it's also like, we pedestalize men so much in this culture.
And it's like, I saw a reel the other day that was like, you know, men can run the country, but they can't even run a household. Like, I don't want to, like, use this to, like, bash men, but I kind of felt that way too. I was like, oh, men control everything except for their behavior.
[00:28:38] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:28:39] Speaker A: Like, that's how it felt in the church. I was just like, why are we putting men on such a pedestal? Seems like they're pretty weak, honestly. Like, and maybe we should be doing more to, like, bolster them as, like, whole human beings and not just so fragile and at the whims of, like, their boners, you know? And so anyway, yeah, there.
There was a. There was definitely a lot of that too. And it was. It was more than the honor piece. It was like, what men thought about you was everything. Yeah. Because you have no value and lovability if you are not chosen by a man. And then the fact that, like, the God of our religion is a man is portrayed as a man, that adds another layer. I. I say in my book, like, it appeared to me that approval from God and approval was tantamount to approval from men. And if I wasn't getting approval from men, that meant that I was not doing enough for God.
It was all connected, like you said. Yeah.
[00:29:39] Speaker B: Oh, gosh.
[00:29:40] Speaker A: Yeah, I know.
[00:29:41] Speaker B: I'm like, I'm so glad we're talking about this. I'm also sitting here. I'm like, what kind of warning do I need to put on this episode?
But I'm so glad it's so necessary.
People don't talk about stuff in the church, and we need to, like, if we can't talk about it here, where we can talk about it.
[00:29:56] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:29:57] Speaker B: So, Maddie Jo, we've you kind of touched on this a little bit, but, like, the idea that purity culture is so much more than the physicality. Right. And the way that it just distorts girls view of sex help. Especially the parents right now that are listening who are raising kids, help them to understand what else, like, purity culture affects in other ways.
[00:30:22] Speaker A: Yeah.
Okay. So, yeah, there's the physicality there's definitely again how they.
How we learn to understand our lovability and how that is attached to our value.
If.
And again, I think this goes back all the way to like original sin or the teaching of original sin, which is not biblical. That was a theological teaching that came much, much later.
But anyways. Well, I don't want to say it's not biblical. Anything can be biblical, Right. I'm just saying it's not an original teaching of Jesus. It was a theological teaching much later.
You can fact check me on the dates, but it was like 400 years or 500 years later. Anyway.
If you believe you are born bad and you need something outside of you to make you good, combined with the teaching of the flesh versus the spirit, your flesh, anything that is of you, your mind, your. Your desires of this earth, right. Anything that is not of God. And you have someone else telling you what is of God and what is of the flesh.
And then the teaching of like we are in this world but not of it.
Suddenly you cannot trust yourself at, at all. And everything is outsourced. Everything.
And if you don't have self trust, what. What are you gonna. You have no self esteem. Yeah. And that is I think really the biggest poison of purity culture is it. It creates so much distrust in ourselves and this belief that we are bad. You know, I talk about in, in my book where I, I had this like fundamental belief that I was bad and I, if I just checked all the boxes to go back to, I was good. But then once I was no longer checking those boxes, right. I was no longer saving myself until marriage. I was no longer going to get married by 22, I was no longer going to live the life of like a wife in Missouri. I had chosen this whole other path. And in fact I think was actually, I don't want to say it was chosen for me, but I definitely felt guided and led there and I felt like that was my correct path then. And I felt even worse about myself.
Even though like intellectually I didn't believe in these things anymore, they still lived in my cells. And so then I felt even worse about myself. And then so I was like chaff and weeding myself. And therefore because I didn't like, I didn't believe that I was good. I did not believe I was worth good things. And so even though I had this like amazing dad, I say in the book, like, I do have daddy issues, but not the Demi Lovato kind of like I had a really amazing dad. So like my choice in men Made no sense. I was dating these horrible guys, but then these guys who were amazing were interested in me and I wasn't giving them a chance. It's because I didn't believe I was worthy of those good guys. So these things, if you don't even believe fundamentally that you are good, that is going to bleed into every decision you make. And then that's how you end up in abusive relationships where you can't speak up and you believe your voice doesn't matter and you are willing to put up with horrible behavior because you don't believe that you're worth anything more. Right. And I can just see the slippery slope that's not as obvious because it's so gradual. And so. Yeah, I think that's a really big piece of it is that desirability and that. And what that's connected to, which is your value, which is, Is connected to your belief in your goodness and then self trust, it. Does that make sense?
[00:34:13] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:34:14] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:34:15] Speaker B: It very much makes sense.
No, I think one of the most dangerous things for our daughters especially.
[00:34:25] Speaker A: Is.
[00:34:26] Speaker B: For the parents that are listening is. Yeah. For them to not believe in themselves and who God made them to be and to not understand that and for them to think that their self worth or their value or any of it is connected to another person.
And so we really have to make it where we're like, no. Like, I remember writing a piece on like pre substack back in the like blog days.
[00:34:48] Speaker A: Yeah, that was me. I just got on substack this year. Yeah. Like, I guess I have the.
Yeah, yeah.
[00:34:55] Speaker B: But I remember writing this piece about like, are we, should we be complimenting our daughters and telling them that they're beautiful? Because I had gotten pushback of like, hey, you tell, you talk about your girls and the way they look too much. And I'm like, okay, hold on.
If all I ever say up to my daughters is that they're pretty, like, I get it. That's one thing. But I also see absolutely nothing wrong with telling my girls that they're beautiful. Because anything that I can say to them, whether it's how smart they are, how strong they are, how brave they are, how courageous they are, how pretty they are, any of these things, I am still just instilling within them, like, hey, look at how amazing you are as a person by yourself.
[00:35:33] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:35:34] Speaker B: And so if I can help them to be confident, listen, I got a preteen who is in that age of like, maybe overcome.
[00:35:42] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The swagger girl. Ride it out.
[00:35:46] Speaker B: Ride it out because somebody, the world is going to come in fast enough and try to take that from her.
So I'm like, if you are overly confident right now, you think you are it, like, fine, live in it. Live in it. And I will be your cheerleader to support you every step of the way, because the world is going to come in fast enough to try to tell you that you don't matter or you're only. Your value is only dependent on what somebody else thinks.
[00:36:11] Speaker A: It's really hard to hold on to your.
Your confidence through all of your quirkiness, especially in your. In your adolescent years. And I go back and forth on, maybe it's just a rite of passage and maybe this is never going to go away, no matter how emotionally intelligent we make our kids as they, you know, as they evolve. And yeah, in these different generations, maybe it is just a rite of passage and into developing a personality. I don't know. But also, yeah, how I am so grateful that I had a dad who laughed with me, laughed at me, celebrated my quirks, like, was always just, you know, I say in the book, thank God I had a pastor dad that was more like, like Mel Robbins than a pastor. Like, because he was just like, no, no one's gonna, like, stifle your shine. Or my mom would say, like, no one's gonna snuff out your sparkle. And like, they were really good about that because I had the rest of the world trying to do it. So at least I had my parents that were touchstones for me to come back to, because I already had peers, I already had church, I already had all of them being like, like, you're a drama queen or you're too much or you're too fat. Right? Like, all of the. Too much of everything when it comes to being a girl.
I'm glad that I at least had my parents voice not doing that.
[00:37:40] Speaker B: Yeah, well, you wrote in the book, Maddie Jo, that you're. And I like, underlined this so much. You said my faith was not part of my life. It was my life. It was not part of me. It was me.
And so what was it like to. To not only dismantle a belief system, but also, like, reconstruct yourself in the process?
[00:38:00] Speaker A: I mean, that's the thing about it, right? It's. It's all tied together. It's not. I think this was the hardest thing for people in New York to really conceptualize. When I would try to explain before evangelical was a household term that people seem to, you know, understand a little bit better now. Before it was like so footloose.
Not exactly.
So is. I was like, it's not just like this. I do think that's the difference between people who are devastated by their deconstruction and people who are just like, yeah, I just kind of like threw it away, realized it was all bull. Right.
Is if it is so intertwined in who you are and it, and it is so intertwined to your value and how you show up in the world, you are literally grieving a death of self. Yeah.
And there is no roadmap for how to shed your entire identity at 22 years old in the wild of New York City.
And.
And then reconstruct to some version that still feels true to who you are at your core but isn't attached to. Must do, must do, must do, must do. Which I think is what happens.
This is why deconstruction is so messy. Because we come from this, this system that just, you know, in Fleabag, she says people just come to you and you tell them what to do and they do it. And I know why people do that because it's more comfortable. It's easier. Right. She's saying that to the priest and that, that is comfortable. As humans, we just want to know what, tell us what to do and then what we'll get out of it. And so it was really hard. I've seen a lot of other people who have quote unquote deconstructed or like me that just sort of like swing from one end of being zealous to another. Right. Like we become an evangelical in the, the self help and personal development, woo woo world. And so I think that's, you know, a necessary part of the pendulum to finally like level out.
But yeah, it was looking back, I just am like, wow, how did I do that? How did I do this and still like go to auditions and pay my rent.
It was so.
It was like not just getting like learning new things. It was unlearning so much all at the same time. And then in the most unexpected ways it would just like hit me out of nowhere. I feel like I was just like constantly accosted with all of the ways that like I didn't know anything and I had so much to learn and unlearn. And so it was, was really messy. And again it was like big picture things and then my new minute things, which requires a lot of conscientiousness and presence and energy to self excavate, which is a lot of attention. And not all of us have that. You know, I was Single when I was going through it. Not all of us have that privilege of just like, being with ourselves that much at that phase in their, in their. In your life, you have kids, you have a marriage, you have a, you know, so it was hard. I will say that it was hard. Obviously beautiful moments of elation and within the devastation, but it was, it was hard.
[00:41:30] Speaker B: And it is hard. And I think a lot of people listening have gone through or are in the process of trying to figure that out right now. And so even just you saying that is. Is very validating.
How did you, you know, you talked about like a death to self. How did you, and I'm air quoting, like, find yourself and figure out who you were actually meant to become and who God made you to be? MADDIE Jo, like, in this process.
[00:41:56] Speaker A: The how to.
I think it's. It's sort of what I said about the.
Even again, because it's all intertwined, getting to the. A better understanding of your sexuality and all of that too. It was like, I started with actually dissecting Scripture. I got very didactic about it, which is something that I get very upset about, this assumption. And religious circles that, you know, basically people who have deconstructed did it because we couldn't hack it morally.
It's like, no, like you, who wants to just, like, have to rebuild an entire identity, like, that's not great, you know, and also that it's just because, oh, you just wanted to have sex and not feel guilty. It's like, well, yes, don't you? But also, but also, it wasn't just like, I went into it again flippantly. I was very studious about it. I wanted to know Scripture was important to me. And so, so I. That was sort of the first step was getting really into, like, I was literally reading textbooks, you know, that they read it like divinity schools and whatnot, and getting a robust understanding. And I was also reading theologians like Tim Keller. And, you know, because I was like, there is this spiritual aspect to it. It's not just all in your head, but your, Your intellect is important as well. And so I think it was that. That combined with lived experience that I allowed myself to question.
You know, I have a chapter in my book where I had this lawyer as a roommate who sort of encourages me to interrogate my beliefs.
And that was a practice that I got really good at, is like, oh, I'm having this belief. Why do I have that belief? Is that true?
So interrogating my belief and then creating new beliefs and saying different things to Myself. So another big piece of this is I'm releasing a series that didn't make it into the book right now on my sub stack called you'd Body is a Temple, all about my struggle with eating disorders. And a big piece of that was tied into believing I was bad and needing to be lovable. And in order to be lovable you need to be small and you know, and, and so saying nice things to myself and believing that I'm allowed to be confident, I'm allowed to love myself. Because in as least, at least as far as I could tell, this whole like sort of self hatred thing, you're nothing but rags. Like I am nothing without Christ. Like how many times do we say that in a worship song? You know, like that was just part of this whole being a Christian deal. Was like you are just kind of a, a, a piece of sorry without this outside source. And so really believing I'm actually not. And why would God create me to believe that about myself? And so creating new neuro pathways, you know, and then on top of that I couldn't just say these things. I actually had to take action towards different outcomes. So I have this character, I won't curse, but it's F boy monster in the book.
And he was sort of this lived out, you know, embodied personification of all of my deepest insecurities and self loathing. And I had to stop that behavior because by participating in a relationship with him, it was sort of reinforcing this lack of value.
And so yeah, it was all these things. It was like scripture. It was staying present and staying curious. It was interrogating my belief systems, implementing new belief systems and then taking action on those beliefs. And I think as I did that, what does that do? That instills self trust. And then you're like, oh, I'm good. Like, and it's a practice. It's not like you just do it once and then it's like over and over and over again. But, but I would say that's how I got to sort of the other side.
[00:46:03] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:46:04] Speaker A: And back to the middle of the pendulum.
[00:46:07] Speaker B: Well, and I love that you keep saying too like you went back to scripture, you were reading, you were understanding more of who God was so that you can understand who you were created to be in God. Because I think for so many things, people listening maybe didn't have an eating disorder and maybe weren't affected by purity culture, but you probably then deal with shame of something or guilt or anger or whatever it is that that weighs on you. And tries to tell you that you're not good enough. And I think that's it, Maddie Jo, is when we can really figure out and remember it's like the biggest difference from, like, our heads to our hearts. Right. Like, I always knew that God loved me, but I was like, but do I believe that you like me actually if I'm not checking the boxes and doing all the good things? You know, I believe that like, like, I'm a good person or that you. That, like, God sees me as good, but, like, do I actually believe it in my heart?
[00:47:01] Speaker A: Yeah, that's it.
[00:47:02] Speaker B: Is remembering, accepting, no, this is how God sees me, because this is how God made me. And then learning to reframe our own view of ourselves around that identity.
[00:47:16] Speaker A: And I think I also, you know, maybe this will be encouraging for people, maybe it won't. People come to all different kinds of conclusions when they interrogate their belief system, especially around evangelical Christianity. I did not identify as a Christian for a long time.
[00:47:32] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:47:33] Speaker A: I was like, no, because in order to do that, I sort of have to believe Jesus is the Messiah. And I don't really think I believe that. And, you know, I, So I, I did. I wasn't. I. I really stayed away from that label. So if you, you know, if your listeners go and listen to other interviews of mine, I will say that openly.
But I have since had a change of heart and am no longer sort of. Yeah, it was again, another sort of like, spiritual experience. A series of spiritual experiences I had on my book tour of this year. And it was my first sub stack I released called My God. And I sort of like lay out this sort of. Of reckoning and coming back to the identity of Christian and.
But I had to really walk away from it for a long time before I could come back. It's kind of like having a relationship with, you know, an ex boyfriend. You need like a really strong break before you can come back and have something that even is a semblance of, like, healthy.
And I think that that's okay too, if that's. If your journey is allowed to look very different. I think for me, I just.
The spiritual component, the undeniable encounters I've had have always, again, been like a touchstone.
[00:49:04] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:49:05] Speaker A: And I do believe in.
Because I am a creative. I, I believe in the artist, creator, and I just don't believe that if, like, if, let's say there is a God in whatever capacity, I don't believe that, that it created this whole world in order for us all to look exactly the Same. And to believe exactly the same as, like, this one tiny church in Arkansas. It's just we, like. No. And even to express who we are the same, you know, a big part of my journey. My very first blog post I ever released was called God and the Gays. And it was about how the queer community was a catalyst for me questioning everything because I was like, how. And I talk about my Uncle Phil in the book. He's the one who took in my.
My severely schizophrenic uncle and nobody else, even though they were super religious, some of them, even pastors, was interested in taking on my Uncle Terry.
[00:50:05] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:50:06] Speaker A: Without. Without thinking Uncle Phil took him in. Like, why is Uncle Phil not good enough for God? You know, I just can't. I can't buy into that. So I. Going back to your point of, like, who you are in the. In the eyes of God, if we want to use that image imagery, it's. We're all created, and we know why we're created in our core. It might just take some, like, excavation to find that purpose and that. That really specific to your DNA path.
[00:50:39] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:50:40] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:50:40] Speaker B: Well, without kind of ruining, you know, spoiling the end of your story here, Maddie Jo.
Cause it says that you are a recovering evangelical.
[00:50:50] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:50:51] Speaker B: How would you describe your faith today?
[00:50:55] Speaker A: I. Yeah, and I.
Whatever. I'll ruin the book. I say recovering instead of recovered because I don't think it ever stops. It's kind of like what we said. You're. You're sort of up against these ways that this sort of affects you cellularly, you know, and you're like, oh, gosh. There's just still always so much work.
Work happening. It's ongoing.
How would I describe my faith? Faith today? It's so funny. My. My boyfriend's here. Probably just came in from the gym, and I have started listening to these podcasts. Pray as you go. Do you know this?
[00:51:31] Speaker B: No.
[00:51:31] Speaker A: Oh, it's like, run by this group of monks. It's so good. I listen to it every morning. And my dad brought it up when he was visiting, and.
And dad was like, does Ken know about. I was like, ken doesn't understand this part of my life.
He just. He has no. Like, he gets it because he understands. Like, he's heard a million of these inter. Interviews that I've done, so he understands how I was raised, but it's like the. The spiritual component of that. Was it something he was raised with? So, anyway, so all of that to be said, I do. My faith now is.
It's kind of like what it was when I first got into it. It's this pure uncomplicated connection.
Yeah. That I believe I have not, not a responsibility and a. Like.
But I. Because I want to, I want to bring positive theology to the masses.
And so I am applying to divinity school and I want to use my talents as an actor, as a writer, as a creator in TV and theater to bring these messages of positive theology to Christian circles, to secular circles.
Because that just doesn't exist in media. That's sort of like what I'm doing right now at Yale. Not sort of. It is what I'm doing right now at Yale is there is this business model for a multimedia brand that portrays faith based sort of content.
Because really Christians in media or are portrayed in a binary, it's either like super caricaturized like Kimmy Schmidt, or it's super dark and brooding like A Handmaid's Tale or under. Or it's all these docu series. So it's like this voyeuristic, you know, it's like, well, where's the real nuanced experience? It's hilarious and it's hurtful, it's. It's painful and it's humorous. You know, like it's all of these things. And so that, that's the, that's what I want to do. But in order to do that well and really effectively, I want to have a really strong understanding of scripture, of the history of religion, not just in America, but in the world. And I just want to have a more robust view. So that's why I want to go to divinity school. And then, yeah, again, like, so I think my faith is like this connection, but then also action.
[00:54:03] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:54:05] Speaker A: And I know that it's not in the streets. Well, meaning I, I know that me using media and acting and writing is not the same as like being in the streets protesting or, or whatever, because. And it can be that too. But this is where I'm hoping because it's where I feel most aligned. I can make a difference and I can bridge this gap between Appalachia and the Big Apple or the belly of the Bible Belt and the coastal elite. How can we, we all, all Americans have a shared value of freedom? I think that is the only shared value we have at this point. And what we are missing is that understanding of mutualism and that coming together. And so I'm hopeful that I can do that. Does that answer the question?
[00:54:55] Speaker B: Don't you for a second minimize what you're doing by saying it's not this or that. You are doing exactly what need to be doing. And if you are not doing it, there would be a hole, like it would be missing and it would be lacking there. So you are taking God and theology into a space that it would not exist if you did not do exactly what you're doing. So don't you for a second say thank you. It's not this that I'm so. I'm so proud of you. I think it's great. I love it. And listen, faith and Christianity is not meant to be in this like, neat, tiny little box where everybody does it the same. So.
[00:55:28] Speaker A: No, do what you. Yeah, and the way I do it is like very tongue in cheek, but it. And it's also kind of like shock factor. And it's also, it's also accessible. That's what makes it accessible, is because I'm gonna, like I say something, but then I'm gonna make you laugh, you know? And that actor, Murray Hill, I don't know if you saw him in Somebody Somewhere. I don't know if you saw this show.
It's about a woman who actually moves back to Manhattan, Kansas, and she actually finds community at this church, but the church is like full of a bunch of like LGBTQ people, which is very shocking to her. Coming from like the big city to Kansas, she's like, oh, whoa. So anyways, it's called somebody Somewhere, and there's this actor, Murray Hill, on this show and he's a stand up comedian and he says he's from a small town, he's trans, and he says you can't hate and laugh at the same time.
And so that's what I'm also hoping to implement is like, let's all laugh a little bit. Yeah.
[00:56:32] Speaker B: Oh, that's so good. I love it. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that last question for you, Maddie Jo, and then I'll let you go because the podcast is called Becoming Church.
How can the listeners become the church to the people around them?
[00:56:46] Speaker A: I mean, I think a little bit of what we just talked about, which is like living in. Within your divine design.
No pressure. Like, it's not like, oh, if you're not, then you're not living how you should be. But I do think we know what that is and what that looks like.
So living it out day to day, not just in your church on Sunday, which is. What does that mean practically? Okay, I will give you an example. Our downstairs neighbors are so sweet, so kind. They're very active in their church.
And, and I got very drunk on my 35th birthday.
And I.
I learned. Yeah, I was like, oh, I guess this is when I learned my lesson about how not drunk to get at 35. A little late, but such is growing up religious, I guess.
And I got very sick on our stoop, and the next morning I went to go clean it up. And like, our doubt. My downstairs favors were so nice and helpful. And I was like, you guys should be like, you know, the. The stereotype would be for you, like, wagging your finger at me. And instead they were like, helping me. And I was like, oh, thank you so much. That's such a small example, but I think that's like, that ricochets and talking to people in your community, just like, like there's a lot going on politically and the news is going to tell you what to believe. Talk to people that will inform how you believe. And I think that's. That's the church and then that live it outside. And also churches, you need to open up your doors. There are so many unhoused people and there are so many beautiful churches, and they've got their doors closed. Why are the homeless people sleeping on the stairs of the church? Church, You've got pews. Yeah. It's heated on the inside. Like, that really irks me. I see that a lot in New York City and I'm like, open your doors. St. Stephen's Basilica.
Like, yes. You know, so those would be the two ways. Yeah, I love it.
[00:58:56] Speaker B: Well, thank you. This has been so fun. I'm gonna link up your book and your substack and all the things.
[00:59:01] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:59:02] Speaker B: And can't wait to chat with you more and just have people. Yeah. Just learn from more of your experience. So just thank you for sharing all this.
[00:59:10] Speaker A: Thank you so much for having me. I love this.
[00:59:17] Speaker B: We didn't even get to the rich people part of her book. So if you're looking for more of Maddie Jo's experience, check out God, Sex, and rich people so you can laugh your way through what is a generally pretty hard and heavy topic.
Thank you also for being people that. Who are open to nuanced topics and hearing different perspectives. Like Matti Jo mentioned, it can feel lonely as you're unlearning and relearning who you are, who God is, and what it means to be a follower of Jesus in the world, even if our lived expressions don't look exactly the same or we don't fully align in our beliefs. I'm so glad you're here and I would be honored to help you process in your continual transformation of becoming who God made you to be. Please reach out to me @KristenMothler Young on Instagram, or you can find me @becomingchurch TV. Until next time, thanks so much for listening and keep becoming the church to the people around you.
