Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:10] Speaker B: Books change lives is a belief that you'll hear on the show today. And I could not agree more. If you think back to any time that you've changed your mind or learned to see from a different perspective, my guess is that even if a seed was planted with something you saw in real life, it was likely something that you read in a book that solidified that new thought.
I'm Kristen Mauchar Young and this is Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. Each week we explore the intersection of faith, culture and everyday life through the lens of Jesus.
My guest today has written yet another life changing book. Jesus and John Wayne became a bestseller when acclaimed scholar Kristin Kobus Dumay exposed how white evangelical revisionist history replaced a gospel focused Christianity for many Americans. In her new book, Live, Laugh Love, she looks at the hidden in plain cultural influences that have built a world specifically for white Christian women. Although this is certainly not a conversation just for them.
After you listen and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, use the link in the show notes for one more question with Kristin over on Substack.
All right, Kristin Kobus Dumay, welcome to the Becoming Church podcast.
[00:01:28] Speaker A: Thank you so much for having me.
[00:01:29] Speaker B: It's fun. I don't think I've ever had another Kristen and spelled the same way.
[00:01:33] Speaker A: So I'm like spelled the correct way. Yes. My parents actually went with that spelling because they planned to call me Christy and that never actually happened. But Kristen with an in.
[00:01:44] Speaker B: I'm sure people still call you Christy though. I get Christy, Christine, Christina, Christa, Christian, like all the things.
[00:01:50] Speaker A: Yes, yes. It's, it's, it's, it's a tricky name. My name is from start to finish, a tricky name.
[00:01:57] Speaker B: Yes. Well, before we get into, I have so much content, I have so many questions that I want to ask you. But before we do that, will you just give us a quick picture into like, what does your day to day look like?
[00:02:09] Speaker A: Oh my goodness. My day today looks like spending an awful lot of time in this little home office. Sometimes I work out of my Calvin office just down the road, but usually I need the quiet here. And so I write a lot. I give interviews. Some semesters I'm teaching, I'm in the classroom. Some semesters I'm not. And I have three kids still at home. And so it's a busy, busy time.
[00:02:36] Speaker B: And what do you teach when you're, when you're in the classroom?
[00:02:39] Speaker A: I teach American History, just women's history. And my most recent class I taught was a course on reading for resistance. So looking at writings from the 20th century, 1930s Germany and under Soviet rule, and looking at how Christians in particular can resist authoritarian regimes.
[00:03:01] Speaker B: Oh, I love. I'm like, do you have an online option? I'm gonna sign up for the next semester.
[00:03:06] Speaker A: It was an incredible class. The students were just amazing. I. I miss them so much.
[00:03:12] Speaker B: That's awesome. I taught kindergarten for a long time, and it is like, obviously, especially at that age, you love them all, yada, yada. But, like, the. The ones that really want to learn, it's just, like, so easy to gravitate to them.
[00:03:24] Speaker A: It is beautiful. Yeah.
[00:03:26] Speaker B: Well, you spent a lot of time, a lot of years studying, like, the intersection, right. Of gender and religion and politics. But what's your personal experience with Christianity? And then when did your faith kind of first intersect with historical research?
[00:03:40] Speaker A: Yeah, I grew up in a Christian home. I grew up in a small denomination, the Christian Reformed Church. And my. In an immigrant community. My mom was an immigrant from the Netherlands, So very Dutch ethnic, staunchly Reformed, and in retrospect, I would say conservative, but I just didn't even think in those terms back in the day. I just thought in terms of, you know, we had the right answers.
And I'm still very much in that tradition in terms of kind of theologically and intellectually. I teach at Calvin University, so this is a Dutch Calvinism here. But I was introduced, especially in college by my professors at a small Christian college in the Reformed tradition.
Dort that I was introduced to a more expansive kind of social justice strand of that tradition where you're. You're not trying to take dominion over all of culture and use coercive power, but rather where you're trying to work for human flourishing and. And the flourishing of all creation. And so I don't consider myself actually like a deconstructionist.
I am still living in the faith tradition that I embraced, even if many people in that tradition have. Have taken a very different direction.
[00:04:59] Speaker B: Okay, well, and I. You know, the word deconstruction, right, can mean a thousand things. But I love that you're like, my first book is coming out in October, and I talk a lot about this, right? Like, sometimes deconstructing means you go out, and sometimes it means you actually land in the exact same place you started.
[00:05:17] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:05:18] Speaker B: You just think about things a little differently. And so it sounds like that's kind of the path you've taken. And I think that's A beautiful example for people to know.
You can let go of things and you can change your mind and rethink and still stay with the tradition and the foundational beliefs that you've always had.
[00:05:35] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I'm kind of stubborn that way. But I, you know, I don't want to in any way denigrate those who do identify with the deconstruction movement, because that's, you know, I think that's very appropriate. And I think that my work, um, while it's not kind of crafted for that audience specifically, it's just going for a more, you know, general history audience. I do think that the work really illuminates those who are walking that path through faith deconstruction, wherever that may lead them.
[00:06:06] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I agree. I mean, Jesus and John Wayne came out in 2020, right? Is that right? Yes, girl, everyone was reading that book. It blew up. And I think the. What happened was it, like, it explained the history of, you know, white evangelical masculinity and really revealed what I think a lot of people maybe saw, like, the effects of, but couldn't figure out how or why or thought like, oh, well, there's nothing we can do to change this.
And so now your new book, Live Laugh Love, focuses specifically on white Christian evangelical women. And so before we dig into, like, the specifics of that, I want to really clearly, like, there are, in case there are people listening who go, I don't understand the distinction. Right. Of why you need to talk about whiteness.
[00:06:55] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:06:56] Speaker B: Explain the reason and why that matters.
[00:06:59] Speaker A: Yeah. So I'm a cultural historian, and I look at things like, you know, Christian publishing, Christian radio, as well as, you know, more traditional kind of church membership and so on. And I look at the ideas that are embedded in those products and in those institutions.
When you do that, you have to talk about race. Because, I mean, Christian radio, the Christian music industry, and I've got all kinds of evidence in the book. I've done the interviews. Right. It is crafted deliberately for a white Christian audience.
And if you look at even, you know, church attendance, Martin Luther King Jr. Said this famously, decades ago. You know, Sunday morning at 11 is the most segregated in America. So we're. We're just talking about, you know, you. You don't have to, you know, look at just white Christians at all. But if you're looking at popular culture, the book's going to be a lot longer if you're trying to talk about all the differences.
Because the movement that I'm describing is one that is crafted specifically for white Christian women and consumed largely, though not exclusively, by white Christian women. So it's simply. Is a descriptive label to say. This is what I'm talking about.
[00:08:17] Speaker B: Yeah. It's not excluding anyone. It's saying let's name. Let's name the people group that we're talking about specifically.
[00:08:24] Speaker A: Yeah, yep.
[00:08:25] Speaker B: The cultural conversation.
[00:08:27] Speaker A: Exactly. The cultural production excluded people. Right, right, right. Like, I'm just describing the world that was created and it was an exclusivist culture.
[00:08:39] Speaker B: Yeah. And we'll get into a little bit later. The problem. The problems with all of that real quick. So Live, Laugh, Love obviously gives me like, hobby lobby vibes immediately. Right. But I want to know if there's one, like, Christian phraseology that's not actually scriptural that gives you the ick. The most. What is it?
[00:09:00] Speaker A: Oh, my goodness.
You know, there's. There's really so much.
How to choose, how to choose.
You know, I would say the one. One that immediately comes to mind, which is simply the. The phrase biblical womanhood, that. That carries so much weight and that adjective biblical does so much heavy lifting.
And I mean, what the heck, let's deconstruct that and let's look at where do those ideas come from you. And do they actually come primarily from the Bible, or is there a whole lot of cultural packaging that is just underneath that, you know, quote unquote, biblical womanhood?
[00:09:46] Speaker B: Yeah. And I've loved Beth Alison Barr, who's also been on the show. I've loved seeing the two of you. Your work is so connected and so overlapping, and I love seeing the two of you kind of untangle all of this.
[00:09:57] Speaker A: It has been so much fun to be, you know, doing this work in tandem with Beth. We come from very different places. Places like historically, she's a medievalist. I do 20th century America, and, you know, religiously in many ways. And yet, like, we found each other more than a decade ago because of our work, and we just saw. Okay, yep, that's. Yeah, we saw what the other was doing and just started, like, putting it out to our people.
[00:10:25] Speaker B: I love it. That's so fun.
Well, in the book, as we get more into more of these, you know, quote, unquote, white Christian lady things you talk about, things in the book that I would have never considered as influences to faith. Right. So like MLMs, like Tupperware parties, Mary Kay cosmetics, Hallmark movies, even Christian romance novels. You kind of tie all together. When you are looking at, you know, 20th century common culture, is there one kind of common denominator that become has become like a red flag that you look for in these things.
[00:11:02] Speaker A: Oh, I don't know if there's, if I could reduce it to one thing, but I suppose I'm always suspicious when anything, any sort of religious content comes with pink floral covers or is really marketed to the female demographic, that usually is enough to give me some red flags. And let's take a closer look here.
[00:11:30] Speaker B: Yeah, and on one hand, I think that's sad, but I also understand how we got there. I mean, even talking about, like, I said, my, the COVID for my first book, the number of covers that I said, absolutely not. Because I was like, what do you like? I, I, I think I understood what it communicated, maybe in a way that they were not seeing. And I was like, we are no florals, no pink, and I love pink.
[00:11:55] Speaker A: But I was like, I love pink.
[00:11:57] Speaker B: This is not what we're doing.
[00:11:58] Speaker A: Yes, we totally ran into that for, because at first, when we got together last fall to, you know, first float ideas for a cover, I had always just kind of pictured this in a subversive way to be, you know, pink, pastel, floral. I had some mock ups of potential. But, but literally, like, two minutes into our conversation, we all realized we can't do that because no man will pick a pastel book up off the shelf. And so I was able to get away with the Live Laugh Love font. And even that's probably pushing. But as you can see, the COVID of the book is there's no pastel there. And we went in an entirely different direction because this is a story that men need to read as well as women.
[00:12:45] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, Kristen, give me some of that, that background historically, Right. How did we get to a place where, like, catchphrases like Live Laugh Love and lifestyle brands kind of hold more formative power than the actual words of Jesus.
[00:13:00] Speaker A: Oh, my goodness, unpack the whole book for us. Yeah, well, and they, they do, right? Because if you think about. And part of this is kind of autobiographical, much more than Jesus and John Wayne.
You know, as a woman, I had kind of one foot in this world, but I didn't grow up evangelical. I didn't consider myself evangelical. Again, we were in this very kind of separate space. I was in a small town and, you know, Iowa. And also I didn't have a lot of money at the time, so I couldn't really participate fully in this consumer culture.
But when I have been asked over the years to what extent I'm evangelical, I, because I'm a cultural historian and see evangelicalism through the culture it produces. That's where I find that, yes, I was shaped by white evangelical values because I grew up listening to Sandy Patty and Amy Grant.
There was one little bookstore in my town and it was a Christian bookstore, right? So I read Christian romance novels and I bought Christian sweatshirts with Jesus emblazoned on it in pastels, right. I had Precious Moments figurines I got for birthdays and graduations. And so when I think about actually my spiritual formation until I got to college, really, it was largely through this world.
And I was in. I opened the book with a story of Calvin ets, and that was the girls club in my Calvinist denomination. Never struck me as hilarious what it was. And what did we learn in Calvin, etc. We did not study John Calvin. We did not study formal theology whatsoever. We learned how to put on Mary Kay makeup, right. You know, so, so this was what I was trying to figure out. Where did this come from? And yet this.
What was taught to us in our church for the girls, right?
So in the book I, I trace the kind of evolution and growth of the Christian market. And I start way back in the 19th century with Christian publishing. And particularly I kind of trace the story of Fleming Ravel Publishing, which evolves now it's it an imprint with Baker and the books put out in that space. I look at best selling books like Maribel Morgan's the Total Woman that sells like 10 million copies. The best selling nonfiction book in 1974. This is a book that usually gets an eye roll if that from scholars of evangelicalism because it's, it's so cringe, right?
But that kind of wild success, that set. That's the template for ideals of Christian femininity. And then I trace that through Elizabeth Elliot and through the Christian music industry. And again, when you think about it, how many hours a week do Christian women listen to, say, Christian radio?
What books do they have at their bedside table that, that are telling them what God is asking of them and then compare those influences in the hours in any week to the sermon that they might hear, you know, for an hour on a Sunday. And that chances are that preacher is also shaped by this whole culture, right? And so that's where I go as a historian of religion and culture.
[00:16:32] Speaker B: How much, Kristen, do you think. And I think about this from time to time and this is a whole different conversation, especially when we think about like Christian music. But sometimes I look at people, people that I've even known personally, even if like on a small scale. And then now They've got all this fame and all these things, and I see them participating in things and sometimes I ask myself and I'm like, I wonder how much agency they had. Like, do you think that people.
I mean, I'm like Amy Grant, like, I don't know, you know, and she has evolved. Like, I love Amy Grant. And she has, her faith has evolved and she's, you know, spoken out over the last however many years.
But how much do you think people actually see this, like, you know, primordial goo that they're like taking part in versus they're just trying to like, use their gifts and skills and what they think they're supposed to do?
[00:17:23] Speaker A: That is the perfect question. And that is, you know, some form of. That question was always on my mind as I was writing and I don't always have a clear answer. Yeah, but, but that is the question to ask. Because, you know, women, you know, we all exercise a certain amount of agency. We all do, even within constraints, but we also inhabit very thick kind of culture and we are constrained by expectations and by.
If you get into the influencer space or any of the Christian products industry space, you are constrained by the market as well. And there's really clear stories of this in Christian music. And you know what happens in the early 2000s when they decide that they are just really going to hone in on their target demographic, which they name Becky. Right? White, 30 something woman with kids who wants everything to be positive and nothing to offend her or her kids when she's driving them around in the minivan. Right. It's that specific.
So the songs that they're going to play have to fit that profile. And Christian artists are like, we want to sing about things that are true. And sometimes that's gritty and, well, tough luck. You're not going to get played on Christian radio. If you're not getting played on Christian radio, you're not going to get signed to a major album and you're not going to be able to make a living. So thanks, but no thanks. Right. This is how this works. But, you know, I look at somebody like Amy Grant and I will say, as I was writing this book, one of the kind of internal challenges that I faced was, much to my surprise, because of the success of Jesus and John Wayne, I was actually invited into some of these influencer spaces. Right. But I knew that the next book that I was writing was going to be, you know, not like a, like negative critique, but a critical history. And so I needed to keep my distance.
But What I will say is some of the women that I ended up profiling in Live Laugh Love actually held up extremely well to historical scrutiny and critical scrutiny. And Amy Grant is one of those. She. I loved writing the chapter on Christian music and purity culture combined with.
And she was hilarious from day one.
And she pushed back against the constraints and she broke the rules over and over again. And so it is no surprise to me to see her where she is today.
You know, other women who held up really well, you know, Rachel Hald Evans, Sarah Bessie, just phenomenal. Latasha Morrison, like, these women.
I loved writing about them. And when I set out to, you know, write this book, I didn't know all the. I knew a little bit about their stories. And so it was very, very nice to have some.
Yeah, some, if not heroes. Right. This is not just a book that. That critiques and tears down. You can really see the struggle that women individually and collectively had in.
In managing exactly this question, like, what? Where is their agency? What is truth? What are the costs that they face in pursuing what they believe is true?
And sometimes those costs are very steep.
[00:20:43] Speaker B: I'm so glad that you named all of those women that you still, you know, look to. Would encourage other women to look to. I've had all of them on this show, so I'm like, oh, all of these friends.
What you really got me, I think it was the end of the introduction and you said, this book is for women who loved Beth Moore and for women who still love Beth Moore. It is for all of us. And I was like, ah, yes. Because there are women that are still like, my gosh, talk about cost and things they've had to face and using your voice and just still, like, making way for what you believe is true and.
[00:21:17] Speaker A: Right.
[00:21:17] Speaker B: Like, if it's not Sister Beth Moore,
[00:21:20] Speaker A: I don't know who it is. Yes, right there would be, like, probably the prime example of a woman who holds up well under scrutiny. And the other thing I'll say, speaking of Beth Moore and Amy Grant and Sarah Bussey and Rachel Haldevins and Tasha Morrison, these women are smart.
They are extremely smart.
And I think that that's something I didn't appreciate when I was kind of on the. On the outside looking in or kind of aware of this fluffy Christian women's culture, you know, maybe 10, 15 years ago when this was really bubbling up and, you know, I was in grad school and then I was a scholar and I was doing, like, this serious work over here, and I knew that they were over there Doing and, you know, like, good for them. But that wasn't my world, I thought. And, and I think there's a little judgment and there's probably some misogyny built into that and you don't take women seriously. And again, there's, you know, pink and floral covers and things like that. Sometimes that does cover up a lot of fluff, but sometimes there is some very real substance. And, you know, somebody like Beth Moore really bears that out. She is remarkable. And yes, when I wrote that line in the introduction, it just came to me and like, I was holding back tears as I was writing and I was so glad my, it worked for my editor because I was like, he's from completely outside this world. Like, is this too much? But that was just exactly what I wanted to say. That's who the book is for.
[00:22:43] Speaker B: Well, and I really, truly like, for people who know immediately you got me. I was like, I know exactly now what this book is going to be and it's going to be acknowledging both, like, the hard and the good. And I just, I love that.
Is there something from Christian womanhood speaking of, like, right, these women that we adore and love and are doing it the right way, Is there something from Christian womanhood that you still genuinely love and hope we don't lose?
[00:23:11] Speaker A: You know, first of all, I, I really want to push back against the framing that domesticity or, you know, being a stay at home wife, if you will, finding your primary calling in as a mother and delighting in creating a beautiful home and, you know, enjoying Magnolia and Joanna Gaines's decor, all of that. Right. I mean, that's not in and of itself. None of that is bad and all of it is actually really good.
But it's when you start coding good things as, and often through propaganda as only belonging inside a particular culture and cultural and political ideology, and then like pushing that message out, that's when it becomes more problematic. More problematic or saying that women are reduced to those things or saying that, you know, being beautiful or creating a beautiful environment is biblical obedience and anything else falls short. And then demanding that women, you know, stay positive and submit and accept all their circumstances. Like, there's so much toxic stuff mixed in. But the only way this all works is by having good mixed in with the bad. And then it's women who are defending the good parts that end up giving cover to the whole toxic system.
[00:24:49] Speaker B: All right, Kristen, I would assume that in studying women, because we've historically had less power, right, that this would have been maybe more straightforward than studying Men.
But I believe that your research revealed that women's relationship to power was actually more complicated. So what did you find?
[00:25:04] Speaker A: So much more complicated? You know, when I first pitched this book to my publisher, they came back with a question. Actually, it wasn't my editor, but I think it was somewhere in the sales team, you know, is. Is Kristen going to be, like, really critical again? You know, like the same publisher that published Jesus and John Wade, you know? And my answer was like, no. No. And I don't even know, right? I don't know until I write the book where it's going to go. But my. My instinct was to say no, because women's agency, women's access to power is so much more complicated, especially in these religious spaces.
And so, I mean, the book is just filled with stories of women who both exercised agency and also ran up against incredible constraints. So women like Elizabeth Elliott, women like Anita Bryant. My goodness, that, you know, just such a poignant story. Both of those women, the kind of trajectories of their lives, who, again, exercised considerable agency and then ran up against the limits. And so I think that's really the consistency. Distant story throughout this book. It is that and maybe even more broadly, that life doesn't fit in neat boxes. Faith doesn't fit in neat and tidy boxes. It doesn't fit in the categories that we want to make, and it certainly doesn't fit neatly inside of the boxes that gatekeepers want to enforce, want to force it into that. Every single woman in this narrative, like, kind of breaks out of these boxes one way or another.
Many of the women who embrace the whole system, try to follow all the rules, and are promised that when you are obedient, you are going to be blessed with holiness, with happiness, with a good life. You know, hashtag blessed. It doesn't work out that way, even for the most faithful. And I hope that there is a kind of liberation for those reading this book who have been taught over and over again that you need to fit yourself in this tiny little box. And if you don't, you are a sinner, and you are, you know, even evil. And you don't belong. You're an outsider. You're a threat. And women who have tried and have failed and have internalized that blame or who have walked away from the faith. I hope that when they read this book, when anyone reads this book, you'll see it. Life doesn't work that way. And anybody who says it does is selling you a lie. And they're doing it for particular purposes. They're doing it to make money and to build those boxes and to play that gatekeeping role. So I will say the women that I write about are so much more interesting than even I anticipated when I started researching them.
[00:27:58] Speaker B: Yeah, I wonder if too. It's because it seems to me that maybe like men, when we talk about, you know, what a man is supposed to be and tell me if this, if this is wrong, but like, it seems like maybe men have like one lane, like this is the one thing you're supposed to be. And then for women it's branched off in so many different directions that that even makes it more complicated because like, and again, yes, there might be like the trad wife narrative and that of kind people could argue that's one lane.
But I do feel like for women, like maybe you're going to do an mlm, maybe you're going to do. Maybe that's what makes it harder.
[00:28:32] Speaker A: Yeah. I think that one real difference between men and women inside these religious spaces is that women are not allowed to use their gifts in so many ways and they are not allowed to hold religious authority. Positions of religious authority. And I say that right up front too. And that's why when you're looking at women's culture, it, it's a, it is a lot messier because you know, if you are a man and you are exercising religious authority, you're, you're going to be doing it as part of a denomination, you're teaching at a seminary, you're a pastor of a church, you have that official title. When you do. There are all kinds of, kind of doctrinal constraints there.
Like you can't teach at Southern Baptist Seminary if you are an egalitarian. Right. You know, not anymore.
There are all these rules for women who are already boxed out of those positions of authority as consumers. At least there is all kinds of flexibility because you can be buying a book at the Christian bookstore from Beth Moore and from Joyce Meyer and. Right. These are theologies that don't really mesh. Exactly. But who cares? Right. And so it's a much messier story. And so Live Laugh Love is about evangelicalism, but it is also about mainline Christianity, is about the charismatic tradition and it's about the secular philosophy of positive thinking and it's about Mormonism. And if you think of Live Laugh Love, what comes to mind? Multi level marketing, influencers, tradwives. Of course it's about all of these things. Of course it is. Right. So I just trace out that history.
But also, yes, when women are kept out of positions of careers, in many cases positions of formal religious authority, there are very few avenues open to them. One is as the pastor's wife and women's ministry leader, and then the other is as you know, overtime blogger. So women who just start blogging all of a sudden gain this authority, but also. Yeah, through things like multi level marketing. So many Christ women are drawn into that space.
And a few years back there was a really great article in Christianity Today investigating this. And they asked basically, you know, are Christian women doing this? You know, really just because we've told them they can't do anything else? Right. And so they're, they're drawn into this essentially predatory industry because they aren't allowed to use their gifts in many other ways. But again, just like the influencers that I write about, ordinary Christian women too, highly gifted, all kinds of capacity. But when so many channels for those gifts are blocked off, where does that energy go?
[00:31:23] Speaker B: Right, right. Well, and I would say, and I think you write about this too, but like that Christian women, we kind of find our own power, our own influence. Right.
What, what do you see even happening today of like, what kind of power are, are white evangelical women learning to leverage within these systems that are still very patriarchal?
[00:31:43] Speaker A: Yeah, it's actually, I think, becoming harder for white evangelical women in recent years.
I think the path is narrower because of the pressures kind of from the right wing flank inside denominations like the SBC where you have, you know, prominent women's ministry leaders who check all the boxes. Boxes. They are, you know, complementarian. They, you know, profess to submit to their husbands and it's still not enough because women's power is dangerous. And so like the, the women who really are ascending to positions of power are those who are wholly embracing the political ideology.
Right. So you've got these influencers on X and on Instagram and think of like the TPUSA type, you know, the Women's Summit. Erica Kirk, Ellie Beth Stuckey. Right. That's, that's where you have this path to power. But kind of some of the more traditional spaces, it's become really difficult for, for women to, to, to walk that very narrow path. And again, Beth Moore is such a great example of a woman who followed all the rules.
She was complementarian, she wore flats instead of heels. If she was on stage with a man who was, you know, shorter, and she's a tiny woman, so you know that, that, you know, so you just protect the ego, you protect the authority. You do not ever challenge that authority. And still she's pushed out of her denomination because she didn't align politically and. And because she cared about abuse. Abuse. Right, those two things. So I think that the path has become narrower in. In some of these spaces. Unless you wholesale embrace the. The MAGA politics and then there's a path for you.
[00:33:44] Speaker B: Well, and I think that this. This kind of brings your. Your two books together, Kristin, because we're seeing increasingly visible expressions of Christian nationalism from men.
[00:33:54] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:33:55] Speaker B: But what does it look like when it does come through women? Because I think it dresses up as other things, like in a convincing way.
[00:34:02] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah. You know, I was just writing a piece that is looking at survey data. Those who are women are as likely as men to embrace Christian nationalism, and Christian nationalism is closely correlated with, you know, quote, unquote, gender traditionalism and with the idea that America has become too soft and feminine and with an embrace of authoritarian politics. Right. We have all of the survey data. So what does that look like?
I write in the book about this kind of hyper femininity that has taken hold in MAGA spaces and even before maga, you can see it some with Sarah Palin and with Fox News hosts and so on. This hyper femininity. Right. Femininity is in a performative femininity. Right. That. That's key. You don't actually have to be staying home with your kids. You just have to be telling women to stay home with their kids. Yes, yes, yes. And right. Gender difference is this, you know, the foundation of the social order. And so if gender difference is good, hyper difference is better. And women have to wear lace and, and florals and pastels. And, you know, if you go to the TPUSA women's summit, they share a lookbook on Pinterest. You can go look these up. And it's like, okay, girls wear floral sundresses. Cowboy boots are great bows in your hair. And. Right. You know, you have. And then you see the pictures. I have a picture in my book of one of these summits, I think 20, 25. And they. They. They. They followed the rules. They. They're going by the book. And so. So that's what it looks like. It also looks like promising women that submission is his power. Promising women that they will be better off if they support the repeal of the 19th Amendment.
Right. You know, this is where we're at now. And.
But they will. They will cover that all with language of femininity, faithfulness, and empowerment.
[00:36:05] Speaker B: Okay, so what would be your counter argument? Because there are women, they're probably not listening to this show. I'm gonna be honest, but there are women who would say that, like, submitting is, you know, is biblical, going back to, obviously biblical womanhood, and that doing these things, you know, is just the way of them to live out their faith and that it is making their life, quote, unquote, better. Like, what would be your counter argument for that?
[00:36:29] Speaker A: Yeah, you know, well, first of all, in the cultural aspect and the femininity, I would say, like, you can be liberal and still wear a sundress. It's totally allowed. You can shop at Target. You can do all that, you know, and you can shop at Hobby Lobby and Altered State. It's allowed. You can do that. Right. Even though these things are now coded right wing, like, you don't have to play by those rules. It's. It's, you know, but it is tricky
[00:36:55] Speaker B: though, Kristen, because it is so, like, ingrained.
[00:36:57] Speaker A: It comes that way right there.
[00:36:59] Speaker B: People might make assumptions.
[00:37:01] Speaker A: I'm like, I tried on a dress the other day because I don't really wear dresses much, but I'm like, that looks. Looks comfortable. It was a really cute pattern. I was like, oh, I cannot pull this out.
[00:37:11] Speaker B: I'm like, I can't. I can't do it right now. I just can't.
[00:37:14] Speaker A: Right, right. So, you know, but you can play around with that and figure out what is in your comfort zone. And sometimes it is fun to be subversive, but I think the best kind of narrative or the best counter evidence is for women who are like, I do these things and I love it.
Good for you.
What I would say is often complementarian marriages that are really happy and, you know, healthy are often de facto egalitarian marriages that sometimes the label. Often the label doesn't actually fit with what is being practiced. But what I would say is, if it's going great for you. Yeah. Count your blessings and listen to the voices of women who have different stories.
Listen to the voices of women. And there are just thousands of women now publicly sharing their stories and, you know, hundreds of thousands, millions actually, who have stories to share. Women who followed all of these rules, women who totally bought into purity culture and believed that God was going to bless them with a gorgeous husband, a happy marriage, and a happy life ever after, and with devastating results. Pay attention to the women who desperately wanted to be faithful, who submitted to their husbands, whose husbands were abusive. What did the church do in those situations? Who did they side with? What happened to their lives? What happened to their faith? Right. The stories are out there, and their stories may not be your story.
Your story, they are not right, but their stories are legitimate. And before you go out and defending, you know, wholesale, this entire system and not just as a option, but as the only option for Christian women, right? Just listen, listen to these narratives. And that's one thing I really try to do in this book.
Bring in the voices of ordinary women, women who completely bought into this, women who have walked away from it all, women who are still conservative Christians to this day, but say, no, something has to change here. And, and so I actually had access to so many more of these voices because of the response to Jesus and John Wayne and because I've received literally thousands of messages from readers, women and men alike. And so I brought some of those voices into this narrative.
[00:39:49] Speaker B: I love that, I love that you are, I mean, listening. You're modeling, right? Like listening to people in real time and then going, all right, let's figure out what is the root of this theme? Like, why are so many people experiencing this?
[00:40:01] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:40:02] Speaker B: I feel like I'm seeing too, and you tell me if you see a connection here, but this, the idea of like self interest over benevolence as a society, like, is that part of this whole movement?
[00:40:13] Speaker A: Yes. Oh, one thing, a thread throughout the book is economics. And I do that. I pay much more attention to economics. Things like free market capitalism, anti New Deal mobilization, deregulation, all of that. That's a part of this story. And one of my favorite chapters was my chapter on Christian romance novels and reading them in terms of the economic values, anti New Deal and you know, anti welfare, anti, you know, social safety net and really teaching women to embrace individualism and a kind of mythical pioneer individualism, but not an individualism where it's just, you know, you do you.
But it's a, it's a godly individualism, which is to say, okay, you are real responsible for your own well being. But it's not primarily through, you know, kind of what you do or through, certainly not through agitating for rights or agitating for equality. It is by changing your attitude. A happy attitude is going to fix your life.
If you're happy and if you're submissive, your husband's going to treat you better, he's going to give you good things and you're going to get what you want. That's the way to power and happiness and all the good things. So it's that kind of individualism.
But in terms of like kind of broader political individualism, it works kind of the same way economically. Right. Everybody can pull themselves up from their Own bootstraps. And if things aren't going well for you, you only have yourself to blame. Yeah, but women also have to be properly contained within a patriarchal home, heterosexual marriage. Right. And. And so it's also kind of the nuclear family unit, which is this unit of society, but economically it's, yes, everybody can succeed. This is the message that is indoctrinated through multi level marketing if you've ever been in that space, you know, and this also is, you know, political messaging that aligns with the Republican party from the 1980s to the present.
[00:42:27] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. As long as you do xyz, as long as you fall in, then.
[00:42:32] Speaker A: Yep. Yeah, yeah. And things aren't going well for you.
Tough. I mean, that's right.
Change you, change your attitude, change your circumstances. That's how that works. So, you know, talk about systemic racism. No, that's negative. Why would you focus on the negative?
[00:42:49] Speaker B: Don't be divisive, Kristen.
[00:42:50] Speaker A: Exactly. Exactly Right. This is what I'm trying to show, where these ideas come from. Why can you not talk about racism in these spaces?
What happens when you do? As a historian, I don't need critical race theory or any theory to talk about systemic racism. You just have to pick up a history book and you'll see it. Right. But I wanted to get at why, you know, where do these values come from? And many of these values are kind of hidden.
And I think that the book kind of discloses why it's so difficult to talk about certain things inside these spaces. And when you do, you're going to have a hard time and you're either going to have to shut up or you're going to be pushed out.
[00:43:38] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
Which is what makes it so hard. Okay, so for the women that are listening and I would say, well, no, this one's specific. This question is probably specifically for the women because you said a lot of it's hidden. Right. Sometimes it's hard to see.
And you write in the book about both women who are complicit, but also the ones who have resisted. So for people that are listening and they're like, I don't want to participate in this narrative, what is the one next thing you would encourage them to do besides read this book?
[00:44:05] Speaker A: Right, right, right. Yeah. You know, I'm such a believer that books change lives because my life was changed by history books and particularly by history books about the civil rights movement, women in the civil rights movement. And also my outside field was 20th century Germany with a focus on the German Christian movement and the Holocaust. Right. So I do believe that books change lives.
What is the first thing to do besides reading? Oh, that's a tough question because, I mean, the book addresses so many different things.
[00:44:39] Speaker B: Right.
[00:44:40] Speaker A: And so I don't know that there's one clear takeaway, except I just profoundly believe that when you read this book, you will not be able to unsee the things that you see. And so you're going to start seeing the world you inhabit, the books you've read in the past, the organizations that you've been a part of, in a new light. So I would just say you trust your gut and keep asking questions and just keep watching, but with a critical framework now, rather than just accepting at face value the things that are being sold to you.
[00:45:27] Speaker B: Yeah. And don't be afraid to do it. I think there's so much fear. Right. Because like you said, depending on the community or the church or the whatever, wherever you're belonging, there may be a. Like, no, we don't talk about this. Or if you do, you're out.
[00:45:44] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:45:45] Speaker B: Like, I just, I want people to, like.
[00:45:46] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:45:47] Speaker B: Know that. How do we get them to, like, not be afraid of that, Kristen? How do we get.
[00:45:50] Speaker A: So I think. I think that if you know that that's going to happen, it's much less powerful when it does. Okay. Because I think what so many women run up against is they start to ask. Ask questions, they start to push back a little bit because of the way they read the Bible, because of their compassion for people less fortunate, because of a sense of justice.
Right. That they have taken from their Christian upbringing one way or another, just like I did. And. And then they start pushing back. And it is so painful because these tight friendships that you thought were genuine friendships suddenly just disappear. The community that you know you were doing life together with all of a sudden pushes you out. And it is so jarring and is so disorienting and it is so painful. But if, you know, this is the playbook, and I go into a lot of detail in this book about how these systems were constructed and how through small groups and accountability and shaming and shunning, these rules are enforced and perpetuated and how good people are drawn into these systems and then become the enforcers when you step out of line. And once you see that, it takes some of the power away and some of the pain away. In fact, you know, over the past years, as I've been researching this book and have a bit of a public profile, and I see other people, other Christians, like, come out and you know, think that they're going to be able to change an organization and just see the pile ons and see that they end up getting fired and they end up, you know, I reach out to them, just tell them you're the best. Just so you know, this isn't about you. The entire system was constructed to do this and you stepped out of line and they treated you exactly as they were trained to do. And I just think that once you can show that to somebody, it gives courage and it gives clarity. So yeah, know what you're in for. And when it does come, it's, it's not going to have the sting. In fact, you, you might, you know, the way I see it, you're, you're doing something good. And if you're doing good things of this sort, you, you should be getting that kind of pushback. Yeah.
[00:48:08] Speaker B: And there is still life and faith. On the other side of that certainty,
[00:48:11] Speaker A: there is still another option like, and, and when you do that, when you speak out, when, when you refuse to go along with it, it will be rough. You will lose friends, you may lose your job, but you will find new people because they will find you. Right. And it is beautiful. On the other side, I have met so many people who have paid such huge prices vocationally, financially, you know, in terms of relationships. I have not met one person who regrets what they've done. Yes. So, you know, that, that's, that's what I would say. There is beauty and goodness on the other side, including in spaces and from people that you would not have imagined, would, you know, have such goodness to share.
[00:48:59] Speaker B: Yeah.
Kristen, last question for you because the podcast is called Becoming Church. How can the people listening become the church, the, you know, Jesus church, to the people that are around them in a day to day.
[00:49:15] Speaker A: You know, I hate to be negative with this question.
You know, one of the ways to become church may be to, to be more critical of your own church, of the church, the practices of the church in which you belong.
Because so many of our churches in this country have, especially, you know, in white Christian spaces, have been shaped around these power structures and systems of enforcement that are invisible but they are ever present. And so, you know, to, to be the church, I would really go back to the scriptures, to go back to the words of Jesus and to go back to, you know, maybe read some books about, or a book about the early church, early Christianity and what was so radical about it. And it grew because it was so countercultural, it was empowering women, it was empowering the poor.
It was going against all of the cultural practices of the day.
And so I think becoming church, we need to kind of scrap our current templates for a time at least, and then come back to them with fresh eyes. Both, you know, critical eyes and then also inspired by the words of Christ and by the first century believers.
[00:50:40] Speaker B: I love that it's not negative or critical. I mean, it's exactly what it needed to be. So thank you.
I would love to link up your books in the show notes. Do you recommend that people read Jesus and John Wayne first and then Live,
[00:50:52] Speaker A: Laugh Love or It doesn't matter, it's not at all necessary. No, I like to say they're complementary books, but you do not have to read Jesus and John Wayne to fully grasp Live, Laugh Love.
Both really go hand in hand.
[00:51:09] Speaker B: There's nothing wrong with taking a critical, critical look at the things you love, and Christianity certainly isn't excluded from that. I actually think the more we revere and honor and care about something, the more we should be willing to inspect the areas that are causing harm so we can hold it accountable to its potential.
Both of Kristen's books, bestseller Jesus and John Wayne and Live Laugh Love, which is available now, are excellent examples of how to see the cracks and repair them. Remember to pop over to Substack to hear Kristin's thoughts on the statement I'm not political, I just focus on my faith and family. The link in the show notes has a discounted rate just for listeners. Until next time. Thanks so much for listening and keep becoming the church of the people around you.
