The Other Side of Certainty: Kristin Mockler Young

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:09] Speaker B: Have you ever had a moment where your faith felt broken? Maybe you scared yourself with the thought that God might not even be real. And this whole thing has been one big waste of time. It's dizzying to have those thoughts. But I've been there, and I want to say the quiet parts out loud today. I'm Kristen Mauchhler Young, and this is Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. Each week, we explore the intersection of faith, culture, and everyday life through the lens of Jesus. And today, not only am I your host, but I'm also your guest because Naeem Basel is back to interview me about my book, the Other side of Certainty, which will be out in the World on October 6th. I am thrilled and expectant for it to shake up people's faith in the best way, and I'm also a little nervous and fearful about whether or not people will read it and what they'll say when they do. So here's a little insight into the last year of my life, or maybe year and a half, pouring out my heart onto the pages of this book, the Other side of Certainty. [00:01:15] Speaker A: Hello. Hello, my friend. [00:01:17] Speaker B: Hello. Nice to see you. [00:01:20] Speaker A: Yeah, nice to see you. So I get to interview you on your book that's going to be out in a couple of days, right? Give us the date. [00:01:27] Speaker B: It comes out on Tuesday, October 6th. So if you're listening to this episode, the day that drops, you have two more days to pick it up. [00:01:34] Speaker A: Okay. And for some reason, for some crazy reason, if someone has not heard about this book. Tell me about this book. [00:01:41] Speaker B: Yes, so it is called the Other side of Certainty. I have it right here. Oh, I actually also have it over here. Look, I have two copies. Right? But it really is a faith, a book for people whose faith is evolving, for people that think they don't even know what they believe anymore. And really, people that are afraid to kind of question and wrestle with what they believe because they're afraid that their only option is, like, to leave completely and to walk away from Christianity. [00:02:05] Speaker A: Yeah, that's awesome. Now, you know in this podcast, you have several authors. I mean, you have a lot of authors that come on and you're always talking about their book, Right? And so now we get to talk about you, because now you are not just a podcaster. You are now officially an author. Who would have thunk it? [00:02:23] Speaker B: Crazy. Crazy. I wanted this. I wanted that title for so long. Like, I've wanted to write a book for like 10 years. And I just kept waiting and the time wasn't right. [00:02:31] Speaker A: And you know, it just, it happened. [00:02:34] Speaker B: I know. [00:02:35] Speaker A: I mean, I remember talking with you, having conversations about how like, wow, are we going to do this? Am I, should I do this? What? All kinds of things. And you know, every author wrestles with this. Right. So if there was someone really, really quick, if there was someone thinking, oh man, I should. I really want to write a book or I should write a book. Any advice for them right now? [00:02:54] Speaker B: Yeah, I would say get your thoughts together. Like, I kind of knew what I wanted to say, but it really wasn't cohesive. Like, if you can't explain it in a couple sentences, then you're probably not quite there yet. [00:03:05] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And would you say that they need to get the right people around them because this gets not, it's not possible with just one person. [00:03:13] Speaker B: You mean as far as like a team? Like, what do you mean? The right people? [00:03:16] Speaker A: Like a team. I've been out a little bit, get some feedback. [00:03:20] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, it was definitely good for me to have an editor, I can tell you that much because it would have come out very different if I hadn't had her. So, yeah, you got to have people. But even, even if you're just in that stage of trying to figure out like what even is it going to be about. Yes, definitely bounce it off of people and see what they think. [00:03:39] Speaker A: Yeah. All right, so the Other side of certainty. Right, that's the, that is the official title of this book. Now question for you. First question now if, if the book had a warning label though, like if I could put a tag on it, like, you know, warning label, you know, like, you know how medicine has keep reach. Don't, don't the kids eat this or something like that. Right? [00:04:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:04:04] Speaker A: So there's a warning label on this book. What would it say? [00:04:08] Speaker B: Mine would probably also say, don't let the kids eat this. I mean that's like just like standard. A warning label. I think it would say if you are a little bit precious about your Christianity. [00:04:19] Speaker A: Okay. [00:04:20] Speaker B: Then it's maybe not for you. Not because it's spicy, it's not full of hot takes, but I'm definitely going to challenge some things that people have believed probably for their entire lives. And so if you, if you are really like that really bothers you for things to change or, or honestly maybe you are the person that needs to read it. [00:04:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:04:40] Speaker B: Okay. [00:04:41] Speaker A: Let me ask you this though. Like the 25 year old Kristen, you won't say how old you are right now, but 25 year old Kristen, would this book have ticked her off? [00:04:53] Speaker B: Oh my gosh, that is such a good question. Would it have ticked her off? I think at 25, I had not started my own like deconstruction yet. Love Jesus, loved the church, loved God. I think I was pretty certain then. I don't think it would have ticked me off because I don't think I would have read it. [00:05:08] Speaker A: Oh, so you wouldn't have even. You'd be like, I'm good, I'm good. [00:05:12] Speaker B: I came from a. Like we just read certain authors and listen to certain people and if they don't agree with us, then we don't even consider their perspective. So 25 year old Kristen would have been like, no, this is not, this is not. I would have just written it off before I even listened. [00:05:28] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So it's not like, yo. Wow, that's interesting. Very, very interesting. Okay, so let me ask you this. I mean, did you think though, if someone were to pick it up, were there parts of the book that you're like, oh, this is definitely going to tick off somebody? [00:05:45] Speaker B: I don't know. I don't think so. I mean there are people that are very anti deconstruction because they don't really understand what it's about. There was, there is a chapter that I originally thought about including, and then we did not include that was a little bit more political, that talked more about Christian nationalism. That's sprinkled in in a couple places, but definitely doesn't have its own chapter. But if it was there, that probably would have rubbed some people the wrong way. Okay, so now I just save that for my social media. You know, I put that other places. [00:06:23] Speaker A: Yeah, well, you know, it is a very, I mean I've, I've got a chance to actually, I say quote, unquote, read the book, listen to it and no, it is, I mean, yeah, it is. It's challenging. It's for sure challenging some ideas that people might have grown up with and yeah, and it is, I know it, I know it's, it's, it's unnerving sometimes to write something down and you go, oh, wow, I've written this down and now this is going to go public and I hope, I hope I'm right about this. Did you have a moment like that? [00:07:02] Speaker B: Well, I was writing it. [00:07:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:04] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I think I'm right about this. I think I revealed some things that, like, you know, especially in the friend chapter, like I share a really vulnerable Story that really, I carried a lot of guilt and a lot of shame about for years. Decades. And so the fact that I then made that public, like, that was a. That was a big deal. Like, I. I'm. Because unfortunately, I'm the villain in the story, you know, so it's not like, oh, And. And now let me tell you how I, like, fix. No, I didn't fix it, actually. And so that was cathartic eventually, because I was able to talk to the person, you know, and get permission to share the story and all the things. But, yeah, that was something that I secretly carried for decades because of how much shame that I had around that. That one event. [00:07:53] Speaker A: H. All right, so, okay, so, yeah, so let's talk about that a little bit, if you don't mind. Like, were there parts of, you know, when you were writing this book that kind of made you cry a little bit? [00:08:06] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh, yes. Yes, I. Well, I cry a lot, so. I cried a lot when I was writing it. It's so funny. And you probably did this too, when you were writing your book. [00:08:16] Speaker A: I did not cry. Yeah. [00:08:19] Speaker B: Yes, but you get locked in, right? You're like, locked in and you're. You're writing and you just kind of. It flows. And then I would go back and read it later and I'm like, did. Who wrote. Did I write this? Like, oh, my gosh. And so there were some moments where it just felt so, I don't know, like, authentic and honest when it must have just been, like. All I can think is that it was God just being like, this is what needs to be said. And I was so in tune that I kind of got it and put it out there. And I think those are the moments where I hope people genuinely feel, like, pastored or shepherded through this process or cared for. There's some really tender sections that, yes, are emotional. [00:09:02] Speaker A: All right, so on that. Was there parts of the book that made you laugh out loud? [00:09:07] Speaker B: Well, I think that I am very funny, so. [00:09:10] Speaker A: Yes, okay. Yes, you might be the only one, but. [00:09:14] Speaker B: Haha. Yes, yes, I know, I know no one thinks I'm funnier than I do, but I do use a lot of, like, you know, I. I use, like, Saved by the Bell references and friends references and give my own little like, hey, here's how you can pronounce this Greek word in a way that I'm sure no one has ever explained how to say it before. [00:09:34] Speaker A: Yeah, you made that. Yeah. Yeah, you did. You had some fun with it, for sure. All right. All Right. So let me ask you this. Let's keep on talking about this book here. Okay? So I know your book has a lot of pop culture references. And so if someone loves pop culture references, this is the book to read. Okay. You have a lot of fun with it. First of all, when I was reading it and I was going through it, I was like, how many pop culture references? Like, it seems like. I mean, I couldn't. But the connections you made were just super. Like, they were great. They were so witty, clever. Let me ask you this. What pop culture character, though. Okay. Would best represent, like, your faith journey? Because the book is about your faith journey. So. [00:10:21] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:10:22] Speaker A: It definitely is pop culture reference. [00:10:25] Speaker B: Okay. So I'm going to say this even though I need to, like, preface it with, like, this example. This. This is not a book for women. A lot of women will read it, but it is not a book specifically to women. But for sure, the pop culture reference that I use in the book, and that immediately comes to mind is Barbie from the Barbie movie. And the scene where Will Ferrell is, like, trying to coax her back in, he says something to the effect of, like, if you're okay with it, you can just get back in the box. Oh, it's making me emotional. You can get back in the box and everything will be as it always was, or everything will be, you know, as it should be. And I think that obviously, Barbie, girly, pink, all the things. Right. But also just that idea that there's always going to be the temptation to, like, go back to what you knew before. [00:11:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:11:14] Speaker B: And go back to what felt safer and go back to what other people are trying to do and, like, the control of someone else. That temptation is always there because it's easier. It's safer, it's easier, it's comfortable. [00:11:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:11:28] Speaker B: So, yeah, that. That. That. I would say that that's real. [00:11:33] Speaker A: So talk to me a little bit about that. I mean, like, so will you. What. What does it mean for you to get back in the box? [00:11:44] Speaker B: If I were to get back in the box, yeah. It would mean just letting people tell me what to believe. It would mean just going back to, like. No, this is. We know what this Bible verse means because we've always known what it means. And we know what God thinks about, you know, particular groups of people. And we. And we believe that, you know, any politician or leader or whoever is put in place was God ordained. Because there's this one Bible verse that says, you know, something about authority. So for me, it would be that, like, I would stop thinking for myself. I would stop questioning. I would stop wondering or exploring. Could there be more to scripture? Could there be more that God wants us to know about him, about ourselves, about other people? And it's easier. It's easier. Name. You know this. For somebody to be like, hey, just believe this because I'm telling you to. [00:12:34] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:12:35] Speaker B: Then to have to wrestle through with Holy Spirit and be like, okay, but is this a little bit true? Not at all true. How much of it is true? And trying to parse that all out takes the. I think it's worth it. Hear me. I think it's totally worth it. But it definitely takes mental and emotional energy and trust to go, like, all right, God, like, I need you to show up and answer these questions. [00:13:00] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, no, I totally understand that. Totally get that. So do you think that there are people who are maybe living in a box, they need to come out of a box? [00:13:12] Speaker B: I do, actually. And with all the grace, I think a lot of them. I think there are some people that are very much turning a blind eye because they've seen it. And they're like, it scares them. I think it scares them to go into unknown things and to let go of, you know, everything they've always believed, especially if their identity and their belonging and everybody that's around them believes those things. [00:13:35] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:13:36] Speaker B: I do also believe there are a lot of people, like I was. Who don't know that they're in a box because they've never seen anything beyond it. And so they genuinely are just like, okay, well, I believe in God. I believe in Jesus. I love God. I go to church. I believe in, like, heaven. I believe in the. The big things. And that's all that's ever been presented to them, is just like, you kind of believe these things, and then you pray and you read your Bible and that's it. And so, you know, it's the whole, like, verse about, like, milk and solid food. Right. If you've only ever been given milk, then that's all you know. And so that's what I hope this book does, is it helps people to see. No, there is actually more. There is something else. And then, like, let's pull you out box. We want to invite you in to see what else there is. [00:14:25] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. So were there parts of the book, though, in terms of when you were challenging people or writing this down, where you moved from the idea of, like, okay, I'm writing a book to I'm writing what really needs to be said? [00:14:43] Speaker B: Yeah. So writing the book was, you know, my organization and like all the post its and making sure that I referenced like all my favorite people that I really wanted to honor just by quoting them and that kind of thing. It was once I started sending little excerpts to people that I really was like, oh, hold on. Like, this is really timely and it's for a lot of people. Specifically, I sent the whole manuscript to two friends, one of whom has grown up in the church, is still very active in the church. And I know that she has a really strong faith and has kind of gone through this process herself. The other one I would say really is questioning did not grow up in the church, so wouldn't have had all of the shared background with me. [00:15:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:15:29] Speaker B: And I knew that her experience would be very, very different, but I was confused if she would read it and just be like, either A, I didn't understand any of this or B, like, it just doesn't apply to me. And the fact that both of them found themselves like emotionally moved and challenged and that that was the big like, okay, God is doing something here. Because people in two very, very different faith levels are actually being able to like apply this to their own lives right now in this stage. [00:15:58] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Huh. So in light of like your journey right where you are right now, the book is really about letting go of certainty, right? In a lot of ways, in a lot of spaces. Theological certainty by. For sure. Let me ask you this. Is there a certainty you kind of miss? [00:16:24] Speaker B: Like, I mean, yeah, all of it. Because to an extent, because it's easier, like I said, it's easier to just go like, okay, God is this removed person or being, you know, that looks down on us from heaven. And then I just have to make sure that I, like, check all the boxes and do all the right things so that one day I can get to heaven and be there and I'm going to try to save my friends along the way. I mean, that's a responsibility that I don't miss. But yeah, just, just the certainty of like, okay, but, but I know, like I know what I know and I know what I believe and I know that I'm right. And there was a safety in that. There was an ease in that. I didn't have to, like I said earlier, I didn't have to think about it. It was just God's God. And anything that can't be explained is explained with these easy answers of like, well, one day we'll find out. Or like, yeah, yeah, one day when we get to heaven, we'll know it's a night. It's naive. [00:17:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:17:20] Speaker B: It's easy. [00:17:21] Speaker A: Right, Right. So let me ask you this. Like, was there a. Like, did you have one of those moments where you're like, okay, now I'm a follower of Jesus? Like, you know how some people have, like a. An altar call moment? Did you have one of those or no? [00:17:33] Speaker B: No, I had like, 47 of them. [00:17:38] Speaker A: You were just, like, anxious. You're like, I better get to heaven. Or, you know, is that what. [00:17:43] Speaker B: I had a lot of fear, even though I was like a goody two shoes and I was a church girl and I did all the things. Every time there was a prayer, every time there was a salvation moment, every time there was an altar call, I was like, raising my hair and here I am. I better go. [00:17:55] Speaker A: Because [00:17:58] Speaker B: I think that I felt like God was just waiting to catch me messing up. And so I felt like I needed to prove to God, like, my devotion to him and prove to him how hard I was trying, because I genuinely was trying to earn his love. I did not. I had not grasped and would not for a long time how much God actually loves us, just because. Yeah, there's a lot of striving there. [00:18:23] Speaker A: So let me ask you this, okay. So was there a moment where you're like, okay, now that I know this, there's no going back. Like. Like, it's like, what would be the pop analogy or movie? Like, when you look behind the curtain, who is it who looks behind the curtain? [00:18:40] Speaker B: Peek behind the curtain. Like in the wizard of Oz, when you see. Yeah. [00:18:43] Speaker A: And then it's like, okay, once I've seen that, I cannot unsee it, even though I want to. Even though it's scary. [00:18:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:50] Speaker A: You think people have those moments where they. They kind of look at what they've been brought to believe, and then they. They have an experience that allows them to look behind the curtain and they just kind of peek and they go, I don't want to go back there. I would rather just. Nothing to see. I rather just live my life. Do the thing or. Yeah. What do you think? What do you think happens? [00:19:13] Speaker B: I think so as I've written this book and kind of like, process and gone through it, like, to me, that's like a deconstruction moment. Right. That's the moment where your eyes are opened or you see something for the first time. You peek behind the curtain. And I think for a lot of us, it's not something that we go looking for. It's not like, oh, we're we're trying to pull back the curtain. It's that we didn't know the curtain was there. And all of a sudden God's like, ta da. Guess what? [00:19:35] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:19:36] Speaker B: And so because of that, because I think God does bring us to these moments or puts us in situations where we have to see him differently or other people differently. Like, I genuinely don't believe that you can go back. I think you can pretend to go back. I think you can go through the motions. I think that you can try to just keep living your faith the same way. And outwardly you maybe can. But I really believe that like once God shows you something new at a new or deeper level, like the cognitive dissonance, to just like wrestle with that and constantly try to tell yourself that it's not there. I don't know, I just feel like it would be really weighty and really hard. [00:20:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:20:21] Speaker B: Because if God wants you to see something or know something, like, he's going to be persistent in making sure that you see it or know it. [00:20:26] Speaker A: Right? Right. Yeah. [00:20:28] Speaker B: And he knows how to get our attention. You know, I have a whole section in my book called Holy Burdens. I actually created a quiz where people can figure out what their holy burden is. And it's been really fun to see people take it and like the accuracy of their responses. That's what people are like, shocked of how accurate the results are. And I love it. But really it is tied to that moment where it's like, I believe that God created us all with, you know, our, our compassion and our hearts lean like in a certain direction. And so those are the things that I think God uses. Whether it's injustice or certain people groups or the environment or like whatever it is, I think God knows who we are and how he made us. And so he uses those things to speak to us and help us to see things differently. [00:21:15] Speaker A: So obviously, when God shows us some stuff and we are courageous enough to stare at it, look at it, go in that direction, the goal, like you talked about in your book, is not that God wants to show you something, but he wants to reveal certain thing about you and, and he is transforming you. So there is a renewal process. It's. You are becoming a different kind of person. Right. So was there a moment in with you or do you think there is a moment with other people with where they are? Like, if I keep going down this path, I'm going to become a different kind of person and I'm not quite sure who that person is. [00:22:05] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:05] Speaker A: Does that make sense? [00:22:06] Speaker B: Yeah, I Mean, you for sure are one of the only people that will remember this moment, because I don't talk about this publicly at all, but I remember very first coming on to Mosaic staff, right, to lead our metro campus, and really fighting that God was calling me into ministry because I was like, I am me. He. I am not a. I'm not a pastor. And I. There were a lot of things, I think you. I think what I. What finally I understood it was you were like, we just need to turn the volume down. Because I needed to become someone different. And what I was afraid of. Name what I was afraid of, if I behaved differently or thought differently or led differently or even just, like, showed up with a different presence in the room, is that I was going to lose who I was. Because we build our identity on things that are not necessarily of God, right? I was like, well, if I'm not doing this and saying this and I'm not being loud, and I'm not, like, always the one up front, and I'm not doing the things, like, who even am I? You know? And you were like, no, you're still going to be you. You're just going to be like a you that's easier to be around, a you that is, like, create space for other people. Listen, I know in the moment, I did not receive that well. It was. It was hard. But I think that's part of it is we have to learn, like, God doesn't want to change us into someone that we're not. God wants to make us into the best version of ourselves. And that's what I really had a hard time understanding. I was like, no, I like me. I've spent 30 something years making me into someone that I like. I don't want to lose her, and I have not lost her. I've just learned how she can look a little bit more. Less like Kristen and a little bit more like Jesus. [00:23:59] Speaker A: That's good. It's really good. All right, so just going with that, I mean, what's the one thing you discovered about yourself in writing this book? Anything. I mean, there's a lot of things, right? But there's. There's one that stands out. [00:24:15] Speaker B: I think what I discovered about myself is that I am. I have not arrived, and I am not an expert. When I was writing it in the first half of 2025American Christianity, I would say, it felt like, to me, kind of was going through an identity crisis, and I was very angry about it, and I had a lot of feelings about it, and I didn't know what to do. And it made me very cynical. And. And so as much as I wanted to point to the people that I thought were doing Christianity like, quote, unquote, wrong, I wanted to, like, say, no, you're wrong and we're doing it right and this is the right way. And as I was writing it, I just realized while I do still believe there are people that are doing it wrong, I don't know that there's necessarily, like, one specific laid out right way. And what happens is we want to leave, quote, unquote, the wrong side, but when we just double down and, like, wanting to be against them, all we end up doing is going to the same side and doing the exact opposite thing just on the other side. And so I saw myself doing that and still falling into the exact same things that I had fallen into before, just differently. And so just, yeah, Realizing, like, I still am tempted by that. I still have the capacity and the ability to do that. And so I really have to keep my eyes on Jesus and let the Holy Spirit, like, zip my lips sometimes. [00:25:48] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:50] Speaker B: Because I'm not doing it perfectly either. [00:25:53] Speaker A: So, I mean, obviously then. Then you are still figuring some stuff out. Yeah. [00:25:59] Speaker B: And I kind of hope I'm always figuring some stuff out. [00:26:01] Speaker A: Okay. [00:26:03] Speaker B: I mean. [00:26:04] Speaker A: I mean, it would be nice to just like, already arrive at some point, like, I got it. I got it figured out. [00:26:08] Speaker B: Or it would be so nice. [00:26:11] Speaker A: Yeah, right. [00:26:11] Speaker B: It would be so nice. [00:26:12] Speaker A: But then at the same time, faith. Right. It's not really a relationship with Jesus. Right, right. [00:26:16] Speaker B: And then also I look at the things that Christians have been arguing about for hundreds of years, using the Bible to do so for hundreds of years, and I'm like, if God wanted this to be clear, like, he's had so many opportunities, so maybe that wasn't the point. These things that we keep arguing, like, maybe we're not supposed to know what they are. And learning to be comfortable in that discomfort is part of what the book is. Because I know that's not an easy thing to just go. It doesn't matter that we don't know for sure, because a lot of people put their value, their worth as a Christian in knowing what the right things are. [00:26:54] Speaker A: Okay, so if this book is about deconstruction. Right. A little bit. [00:26:59] Speaker B: It's four people, I would say, who have deconstructed and then are hoping to. Now what do I do with this? Yeah. [00:27:04] Speaker A: Okay. So if that's the case. And then also, obviously, the book is about, hey, pursue uncertainty, you know, like, move towards It. So give me some construction stuff. Right? So you got deconstruction tools. Give me some construction. Because what this book is really not about, because, you know, having gone through it, is not a book about, like, hey, nothing's really true, so que sera, sera, Whatever will be, will be. Just relax. It's not that. So there's some foundational, like, things that we need to, you know, build our faith on. What will you think? What are some foundational things you talk about in the book? [00:27:46] Speaker B: Yeah, I definitely talk about what is certain. And so we have to go back to, you know, God is the Creator who created us and who loves us and who made us in his image. And he sent Jesus so that we can be in relationship with him without needing, you know, another person or a go between. And we've got God's Holy Spirit within us to lead us and to guide us. You know, one day Jesus is going to reconcile things again in a whole new way that we can be, you know, have salvation in Jesus. I think it looks differently now than I. Than I used to. But yes, there are definitely things that are certain and that we have to go back to as a foundation. Otherwise, you're right. Like you said, we would have the theology of Kristen and the theology of Naim and everybody would have their own thing. [00:28:33] Speaker A: Right. [00:28:33] Speaker B: And that's definitely not at all what I'm saying. And I'm not even trying to convince people to believe what I believe. And I try to make that case really clearly up front. Like, I want people to explore what else is out there and to ask questions so that they know why they believe what they believe and then to figure out what to do with it. But if they go through that process and end up believing back at the same exact place with the same exact beliefs, like, I wouldn't call that a failure. I wouldn't be like, oh, you did it wrong. [00:29:00] Speaker A: Oh, okay. [00:29:01] Speaker B: If you wrestled through everything and you still are, like, I explored other perspectives and I was open and I listened and I learned and I questioned and I wrestled and I still believe the same things. And, like, maybe they just understood it better than I did to begin with, you know? [00:29:16] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, that's good. That's interesting you say that. It's basically like, I think I'd like this idea of, like, doing math, you know, where in test, sometimes the. If you get a problem, like a question, you know, or test, and, you know, it's just easier to just like, give them the answer. But sometimes the teachers want you to. In the margins, they want you to, like, show the. [00:29:38] Speaker B: Work it out. [00:29:39] Speaker A: Yeah, work it out. And that's a problem because you're like, I don't know. Especially when you're cheating. Not that I'm admitting I would not know that I was cheating ever. But yeah, I did. And yeah, I would just get the answer. And they're like, well, show me how you got there. And what you're saying is that it's really about doing the work in the margins. Doing the work. And it's in the. Doing the work that you grow in the character of Jesus. Not when you know the right talking points or know the right answers. Because in doing the work, you ask the right questions and then that changes you to become the kind of person God really wants you to be. Right. [00:30:18] Speaker B: Yeah. That's when the understanding comes. You know, if I were to take somebody's. If I was like, give me your answers and give me the things that you blindly believed for forever, and instead I'm going to trade and I'm going to give you what I want you to now believe instead of, here's your new answer. Yeah, it's the same thing. Like, I didn't help you do anything. [00:30:35] Speaker A: Correct. That's great. That's so good, man. I am so looking forward to this book because I know that this is going to deeply impact people's lives. Deeply impact people's lives. And I'm saying this because, I mean, as a person who's written a couple of books and, you know, I hope that my books will deeply impact people. But your book, I think it really challenges people's beliefs. I think it's. It is something that'll shake people out of their slumber in one sense, maybe even shake them out of their box. Get them out of the box and. Yeah. And to discover what God is really wanting to do. Not just in them, but through them. So, so proud of you. So glad you wrote this book. All right, any last words you want to say before we wrap this up? Anything you want to tell your potential? What do you call it? Buyers? [00:31:26] Speaker B: Yeah. Yes. I will say, just for the becoming church listeners, the pre order bonuses are supposed to expire on Tuesday, launch day, but I am going to extend it a little bit further. So if they, if they purchase the book by the end of the week, I'm going to extend a week and they'll get to have my deconstruction guide and the private, like, audio episodes where I kind of walk them through it and help them to know how to talk to the people they love who don't really understand this process that they're going through. [00:31:58] Speaker A: That's awesome. Well hey, this has been quite treat. Thanks so much again for letting me do this. Thank you. Excited for you Friend [00:32:10] Speaker B: Friends, I am so honored that you're here and that you're listening. I would love for you to pick up a copy of the Other side of Certainty. There are links to Amazon and bookshop.org in the show Notes and you can find it pretty much wherever books are sold, at least online. And listen, if it's not in the budget, you can also request it from your local library in both print and audio. Yes, there is an audio version available for purchase in the Show Notes section as well. The lovely Nan McNamara reads my book for the audio version. But just for you today, my favorite listeners of Becoming Church, here's a preview in my voice so you can see if the other side of Certainty is right for you. The Other side of Certainty how to Follow Jesus when easy Answers no Longer Work Work by me Kristin Mockler Young Chapter 1 Living in the Tension if our theology doesn't shift and change over our lifetimes, then I have to wonder if we're paying attention. Sarah Bessie out of sorts. The line of good and bad is not so clean, and what we are is something in between. Do a little good Spirited the first sermon I ever preached was in late 2019. I'd been in ministry for less than two years and hadn't even considered getting ordained yet. I was a regular, decent person. Not wholly like a pastor, but I had this word tension that kept popping up everywhere I looked. Has this ever happened to you? Like when you think about getting a new car and then that's the only car you see on the road? Or when you do a Google for a supplement to solve whatever your current fixation is and then you see it in your feed? Okay, maybe that one's a little different because it's the algorithm God spoon feeding you ads. This happened to me for a solid year. The word tension was everywhere, even though it was a word I had only ever previously used to write a physics paper. Tension Like a light bulb marquee a la Rosie Heart in Chicago. So when we decided to do a sermon series called Me Also Me, I knew it was my time. You probably have your own Me, also Me tensions. I want to be a Pinterest mom for my girls birthday parties, but I'm also a Chuck and uncrustable in the lunchbox on the way out the door mom. Most days I take in all kinds of research and data and best practices from books and podcasts on how to be the most effective leader I can be. But I also succumb to the brain rot of reality TV on the couch when all the tips and strategies feel overwhelming tensions on the brink of breaking. When it comes to faith, the tensions are a lot more volatile. Is faith enough to be saved or do we need to do works to prove our faith? Are guilt and punishment good because they make us feel bad when we sin? Or should we live in grace because God already forgave us, knew we were going to mess up, and loves us anyway? How do we believe that God is real and with us when it seems like there's no end in sight to the prayer we've been praying and the doubt is creeping up ever closer as we wait? You may have just highlighted that entire paragraph because it's the reason you stop going to church altogether, or at least feel frustrated when you attend. Or it's the reason the Bible is so hard to read. Or it's why you're tempted to walk away from Christianity completely. Because honestly, the mental gymnastics are exhausting. On one side, there's a legalistic black and white religion that provides an answer to everything. God is clear. The Bible is literal. There is never ever a need for questions because every word on the page is chosen as if God himself had picked up the quill and inscribed it. This is the side of certainty. Many people who live on the side of religious certainty will tell you that the other side is absolutely buck wild. It's an anything goes worshiping all the gods bachelor party that makes the hangover look like a child's playdate. It's where people twist the scripture so they can justify sinning and lawlessness in the name of Jesus. But what about the other side? Everyone is free to venture out of religious certainty, to explore what exists beyond the boundaries. The catch is only those who are willing to walk out the tension of the tightrope will see what other options exist. You can't experience a new place until you're brave enough to venture into it. The fact that you picked up this book may be a sign that you're ready to see what else there is. As Knox McCoy wrote in all Things Reconsidered, we don't always see the full picture immediately. Once we do, it may reveal that our initial assumptions were incorrect, or seeing the full picture may confirm that our first instinct was the right one all along. As you explore, you may find a new place to land and live a space that feels more like home than religious certainty ever did, or you may decide it isn't for you. So collect a couple of souvenirs and go back to what you've always known. The point isn't to evict you from your home and force you to adopt a new address. The choice will always be yours, and it will always be between you and God. But sometimes I'm not editing this, listeners, because this is just for you. But sometimes home feels like the best place to live only because we've never been anywhere else seeing a new perspective. Luckily for us, we're not the first people to leave what we've known in search of more it's not a stretch to say that Paul is one of the most influential leaders of Christianity. But he didn't start that way. Our boy Paul was super anti Christian, as in he violently oppressed them with harmful intent. Paul, known then as Saul, was part of an ultra religiously conservative group of Jewish leaders called the Pharisees. They adhered to strict laws and customs because they believed that upholding tradition kept them pure. It was a way to prove their devotion to God as well as a way to prove their righteousness to the people around them. As studied leaders, they believed God had already revealed himself through Abraham and Moses, so anything that wasn't explicitly spelled out in the Torah or passed down from their ancestors was not considered holy. While midrashic questioning existed within Jewish teaching, many Pharisees had allowed their interpretations to harden into legalism, where protecting the law mattered more than curiosity. Their certainty of God made questions blasphemous, as if the pursuit of knowing more offended God himself. It was this strict, unwavering adherence to a black and white faith practice that led to the persecution of anyone acknowledging Jesus as God. Nuanced conversations weren't just hard to have. There was zero space for tolerance or complexity. As you can see in a variety of places in Scripture where Jesus interacts with the Pharisees, they saw him as a false prophet who broke the laws they lived and died by. Even when they were willing to engage with him theologically, his integrity as a leader was compromised in their eyes because instead of keeping his himself holy, he interacted with people they considered ungodly. Some of them even believed he was being used by Satan to lead God's chosen people astray. So one day as Paul, Saul is on his way to get a warrant for the arrest of anyone he comes across who's a follower of Jesus, God himself shines a spotlight on him so bright that it puts Saul on the ground. Jesus comes over the heavenly loudspeaker like my guy, why are you being like this? What did I ever do to you? And tells him to await further instruction in Damascus, the next town on their way, Saul stands up and realizes the light has completely blinded him. So his traveling buddies, who are confused by what they have heard but not seen, must lead him by the hand. Meanwhile, God tells Ananias, a Jesus following dude who lives in Damascus, to go lay hands on Saul so his vision will come back. No, thank you very much. I'd like to keep living Today, Ananias tells God, as he tends to do. God annoyingly wins, and Ananias does what he's been asked to do. Saul regains his vision and gets baptized, and they go to dinner together. It takes some convincing of both the Jews and the Gentiles. But Paul starts preaching Jesus immediately when certainty stinks. We can't know that he never looked back, though, because maybe he did, as many of us also do when we find ourselves questioning the certainty we've known. Like when a kid learns to swim, there's comfort in knowing where the edge of the pool is in case you change your mind and need to cling back on. If you ventured into unknown waters yet found yourself back at the safety of the edge when you feared going under. It's okay. It's a natural instinct to go back to the things that feel solid under our fingers. But if you just keep swimming, you'll get further and further from the edge until you realize that you're not contained in a pool. You're out in the vastness of open water with Jesus as your life jacket, snorkel and scuba instructor. What may have seemed overwhelmingly terrifying can be peaceful, inspiring and full of new discoveries. In a later letter to the Church of Philippi, Paul does reflect on his time as a Pharisee. He reminds the people that because of the freedom they've found in Jesus, their salvation is no longer determined by their own self righteousness, but found only in Jesus Christ himself. He lists the things he used to do, the checklist of religious practices that proved his own merit and made him holy. Then Paul says, I once thought these things were valuable, but now I consider them worthless because of what Christ has done. Yes, everything else is worthless when compared with the infinite value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake, I have discarded everything else, counting it all as garbage so that I could gain Christ and become one with Him. I no longer count on my own righteousness through obeying the law. Rather, I become righteous through faith in Christ. Paul is like, listen, if there is a gold medal for being the most holy by the letter of the law, I'm the Simone Biles of religion. But all those acolyte. But all those accolades rather mean squat now. Although actually he doesn't say squat. Paul, like me, tends to be a little dramatic to make a point. And at times he loves a well placed profanity to really drive the point home. In verse 8 when Paul says he considers his old religious ways to be garbage. The original Greek word there is Scubalon. You say it like if Scuba Steve moonlighted with the CCM band Avalon to sing Testify to love. Scuba Lawn. And even better than that, well crafted pronunciation tip is what scubalon actually means. Animal excrement. Rubbish dregs. Scum. Waste. Yes, this is still the story of my first sermon and no, it somehow wasn't my last. These are strong words from Paul. He wasn't just like, I mean, you know, I'm doing things a little differently these days, my man said, compared to the freedom I've found in an intimate relationship with Jesus. Literally everything I used to do is bull. Scubalon, you don't grow in spiritual maturity by knowing all the answers. You become a real follower of Jesus when you're willing to hold the tension of what used to demand your obedience and the freedom God is calling you forward to instead. Real life tensions. Maybe like Paul, you have a clear distinction between who you were before and after meeting Jesus. Maybe you know the day or the year or your life is marked with a BC and AD timeline. Maybe you have a spiritual birthday and your story is a testament to how God can truly change a life. Or maybe like I did for a long time, you count your story out because you don't have that decision point. Maybe, like me, you are basically born in a church pew with a hymnal in hand, so you convinced yourself that your story isn't worth telling. The thing is though, the tension doesn't exist, only between two extremes. Often the tension of trying to follow Jesus is about an old and new way of living the same life. What matters most isn't knowing about God through Jesus, it's knowing Jesus in an intimate, personal way. It's moving away from hand me down beliefs of a God who lives in heaven to knowing Jesus, whose whole mission is based on his love for you in the here and now. Maybe your tension lies in understanding the simple fact that everything you believe about yourself, about others, about the world, about religion, you is a choice and that you have the power to change it and make another choice. If God the Father doesn't change and Jesus doesn't change and the Holy Spirit doesn't change and the truth doesn't change, then what does? It has to be us. And believe it or not, God wants us to change. What are spiritual transformation and sanctification and becoming more like Christ if they're not about change? Scientifically, change is challenging, but it's not the impossible feat religious certainty would have us believe. If you take the same route every day through a field, over time, your footprints create a path. The same thing happens in your brain as you think, the same thought. Whether it's true or not, you create a neural pathway. If you wanted to create a new path in the grass, what would you do? You would turn and walk in a different direction. Just as the original path took time to materialize, so will the new path. It also takes time for the original path to fill back in and disappear. When this happens with our thoughts and beliefs, it's called neuroplasticity, and it's a way to rewire the brain. We can change the way we think and learn to move on from beliefs that no longer suit us over time. Beyond Black and White do you ever wonder what happens to Dorothy after she wakes up and realizes that the Emerald City and Munchkinland were all a dream? Sure, she'd lived happily in that one dimensional black and white world her whole life. It was all she knew. But after seeing a world in Technicolor, after having her mind open to the possibility of more, after learning to think for herself about who she was, how other people became who they were, and what might be motivating authority figures to lead the way they did. How could anyone go back after their eyes had been opened to all of that? I don't think I could. Just as Paul had scale fall from his eyes, once you start to see who God really is, you can't unsee it. I know it can feel like a dream or a nightmare to look around and see things differently. But on the other side of certainty, there is a life of freedom. It's vibrant and colorful and contains mysteries you've never thought could exist. And just maybe what frightens us doesn't hold as much power as we think throughout the rest of this book. We're going to unlearn a faith that was built on religious certainty so we can relearn a new way forward in faithful curiosity. If you find yourself on that old path, going back to a belief or solution that worked in the past, it doesn't mean you're stuck there. Comfort is alluring and the devil you know feels safer than the devil you don't, even when you know it's not good for you. Discomfort is inevitable, but as you learn to embrace attention, you will see that it's been the doorway to freedom the whole time. I genuinely hope that this book challenges and changes you in the way the words of people like Sarah Bessie and Rachel Held Evans and Erin Moon and Beth Moore have shaped my faith and helped me to look more like Jesus in this world. Please keep me posted as you read. I want to know how God uses this message to speak to you and if it really, really does the way I hope it will. You can let other people know how life changing it is as well by leaving a review on Amazon or Goodreads, which are also linked right up in the show notes to make it easy for you because those reviews are so so important for a first time author like me. Okay, I will see you on the other side of launch day. Follow along on the socials at KristenMuchler Young for some fun ways that you can participate in the celebration with me and take advantage of some giveaways. Until next time. Thanks for listening and keep becoming the church of the people around.