Not Everyone is a Bestie: Wayne Francis

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign. [00:00:09] Speaker B: Being a good friend is one of the earliest lessons we're taught. We're told to share and be kind and use our words. We have playdates and sleepovers which turn into group chats and squads. But if we're honest, don't friendships get harder as we get older? If you can be honest about the tensions of friendship, then this episode can help remove some of the stress. I'm Kristin Mockler Young and this is Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. Each week we explore the intersection of faith, culture and everyday life through the lens of Jesus. Today, Wayne Francis is bringing the fun and the energy to this conversation on friendships. But he's not going to tell you that everyone has to be your friend. Whether that sounds liberating or frustrating, there's something in this episode just for you. Wayne Francis, welcome to the Becoming Church podcast. [00:01:03] Speaker A: Hey. Thank you, Kristen. This is awesome. Let's go. [00:01:06] Speaker B: I know, let's go. I kind of wanted to start off with like a song and a dance party, but I didn't know how that would work. [00:01:12] Speaker A: Always ready to dance. I'm always ready. [00:01:14] Speaker B: I know you are. [00:01:15] Speaker A: I know you are. [00:01:17] Speaker B: Well, listen, you are here to talk about your book, how to Make Friends with Anyone. [00:01:21] Speaker A: Yes. [00:01:22] Speaker B: So I thought let's start with a really fun, like, quick Q and A. Yeah. Some friend related questions. Okay, let's do it. So I wanna know which is harder to be friends with, the person who wants to debate politics or the person who wants to tell you how much protein they're eating all the time. [00:01:39] Speaker A: Oh, the protein person. They're obsessive, annoying. [00:01:43] Speaker B: Okay. So don't tell Naim Fazel. We'll make sure he doesn't listen to this. [00:01:47] Speaker A: He's definitely eating his weight and protein every day. [00:01:51] Speaker B: He is. All right, how about which disciple do you think it would be the hardest for you to be friends with? [00:01:57] Speaker A: Thomas. [00:01:59] Speaker B: Okay. Why? [00:02:01] Speaker A: I don't know. Just kind of a little bit of, you know, gotta see everything, gotta know, you know, gotta just kind of that. That vibe where just feels like, yeah, you know, you just want to. I'd rather hang out with Peter. Peter was like, you know, from the Bronx, man, like, you know, someone chop off some ears. I'm about to. I'll step out the boat. Yeah, I think Thomas. [00:02:19] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I would like to be friends with Peter too. I was thinking John, you know, he's always talking about how much Jesus loves him and I just feel like my Competitive side would come out. Like, that would be. [00:02:28] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:02:30] Speaker B: All right, last one. What's your. Your friendship red flag. That's like, super petty. Like, super petty. [00:02:37] Speaker A: If they chew ice or they chew loud. Like, any. Anything is like, we're not going to be friends if they have any quirks. Like if you eat your food a weird way or whatever. Like, that type of stuff. Yeah, we're not good. It's pet it. [00:02:51] Speaker B: You can't have it. [00:02:53] Speaker A: Couldn't be good friends with you. [00:02:54] Speaker B: Okay. It's funny because mine was also food related. I need. I need you to be a food sharer. Are you a food sharer, Wayne? [00:03:00] Speaker A: I am, big time. Absolutely. Because I always want to eat other people's food, too. [00:03:05] Speaker B: Right. Like, I'm gonna order what. What I like, but then also yours is gonna look good. [00:03:09] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:03:11] Speaker B: I gotta be able to reach over and take French fries when I need French fries. [00:03:13] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. I gotta take a sip of whatever you're drinking. I gotta have a little piece of your dessert. Like. [00:03:19] Speaker B: Yes, exactly. Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, good. Well, we can go to dinner. We'll go to dinner. I'm not allowed. We're a weird chewer, so. [00:03:24] Speaker A: Oh, that's hilarious. [00:03:27] Speaker B: Well, tell us for the people that are not familiar with you yet, tell us about your church and your family and what you do in the day to day. [00:03:33] Speaker A: Yeah, my. My family. I am married to a really beautiful woman named Classy. Her real name is Claudine, but I've been calling her Classy since we started dating back in the days. My anniversary is September 11th, so 27 years. That's crazy. We have two. Two daughters. 23. Thank you. 23 and 21. I passed to the Life Church, New York, which is a part of a set of churches that was founded by my pastors, John and Leslie Siebling, in Tennessee. We have locations all over the world, but I passed to the New York one about a half an hour north of Manhattan. I'm born and raised from the Bronx. Your boy is from the Bronx. And I'm also the chaplain for the NBA team, the Brooklyn Nets. I podcast myself. I move around a good bit. I get involved in a lot of different stuff. So, yeah, I love to shop. You do? [00:04:29] Speaker B: Okay, like fashion, like clothes. [00:04:31] Speaker A: 100. [00:04:33] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:04:34] Speaker A: It's bad. [00:04:34] Speaker B: See, I have found. I don't think they've come up with it for guys yet, but I rent my clothes. [00:04:40] Speaker A: Oh, yeah? Yeah. [00:04:42] Speaker B: I spend less money shopping, but I get to have new stuff, Wayne, all the time. [00:04:46] Speaker A: It's amazing that do that. That's so cool. I know. I don't think they have the. The dude version yet, but it's cool yet. [00:04:51] Speaker B: But when they do, jump on it. [00:04:54] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:04:55] Speaker B: Absolutely. All right, well, I love your energy. I've always loved your energy. And so I want to know, like, are you somebody who has. Have you always been able to just walk into a room and start talking to whoever's there? [00:05:07] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. I. I'm an extrovert by nature. You know, for those of your audience that might be into the Enneagram, I am a seven. Off the charts. Off the charts. Like, you're like, what's your wing? I'm like, seven. I. I am a seven. So I always want to turn a room into a party. I. I never, ever feel intimidated by any room that I'm in. I'm always interested in making a friend or a connection, so I thrive off of it. [00:05:34] Speaker B: Ever since you were a kid? Same? Like, same. [00:05:37] Speaker A: Yeah, you know, I was. I have four older sisters. My sister that is closest to me in age is a decade older than me. So when you're that young and, you know, everybody's older than you, all you are trying to do is get attention. Right. So I think I've always just been the. And I'm the only boy in my family. My, you know, four sisters. And so it was very easy to try to, you know, bring energy and curiosity to a room. So, yeah, I think it's just my personality, though. [00:06:03] Speaker B: Okay. All right. So. So this personality of yours, right, Being able to make friends with anyone. Now you've written a book. [00:06:10] Speaker A: Yes. [00:06:10] Speaker B: How to Make Friends with Anyone. There it is. Love the title. Love the COVID Thank you. Tell us about what made you write this book. [00:06:20] Speaker A: So what's interesting, Kristen, is that people would always be like, wayne, how do you have so many friends? Like, everybody's like, oh, yeah, I know. Wayne, friend. Oh, he's my best friend. He's like, you know, people are like, how could you have that many best friends? And I would say, well, it seems very easy to me because I've always had a great stratification in my mind on where people land in my life. And I think that Jesus elevated theology of friendship that had stratification. So there's two things that most people are missing for friendships is a strategy to make friends and a stratification for friends. That's okay. And I think that's what this book answers. [00:06:54] Speaker B: Okay. We're gonna get. We're gonna get into all of it, all of the different levels But I want to start with. I think there's a confusion between friends and, like, parasocial friends, which are really just followers. And listen, I love social media, and I love the relationships that I've built through social media, but also, like, it's not the same. So how do you think social media has both helped and hurt relationships? [00:07:18] Speaker A: The way that it's hurt relationships is that we are digitally connected but relationally disconnected. And so we think that we know a lot about a person because we saw what they ate or what their outfits were or who they're hanging with. And obviously it's made us. It's actually contributed to loneliness because we always think that there's something going on that's not involving me. But it's helped because now we have access to each other in beautiful, beautiful ways. And so we do get to, you know, experience each other in a. In a. In a way that keeps us more consistent. Think about it. If I have so many friends that are in California that I do not get to see all the time, but social media has been a beautiful way to keep our friendship going when I could see the different things that were going on. And so it's useful if you bring a human component to it. Like, yo, dude, I saw that you were hanging out in Malibu the other day. I was so sick. That matcha latte looked like it was popping. Right. Like, those are cool. And I think that's how you have to, you know, toggle between it being harmful or helpful. But mostly, I think social media is actually helpful. [00:08:22] Speaker B: I do, too. I like it. But I think you're. You. I think you're right. It does create this bit of fomo, right? [00:08:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:08:29] Speaker B: Oh, and listen, I. I think that we tend to put this as like a junior high, high school teenager thing of like, oh, you felt left out because you didn't get invited. It is not. It is a very adult. Like, now people see people hanging out together, and I feel like we still have to fight that. Like, well, why wasn't I invited? [00:08:49] Speaker A: Absolutely. And that's never going to go away because we all want to be needed, known, and included. And I think that the bigger question is not, you know, some evil of social media. I think the bigger question is, are you emotionally mature to handle what you view? And you might need to cause your own diet of exposure to those things. And the responsibility is on you to steward your emotions. It's not on what I see or what I look at, but that's how I feel about it. Let's not blame the device. Let's blame our own sense of. Of being. [00:09:24] Speaker B: Okay, Preach, preacher. All right, let's go. I didn't know we were bringing that today with that word. [00:09:29] Speaker A: Today. We're not playing games. [00:09:32] Speaker B: I love it. Well, your. Your book breaks down five levels of friendship. But first of all, listen to me. [00:09:39] Speaker A: Yep. [00:09:40] Speaker B: Sunbather, surfer, snorkelers, scuba diver, submariner. Were you just like, I'm gonna figure out a way to go on vacation to write this book. [00:09:47] Speaker A: Like, what? So hilarious. You know, I got asked this question too, like, dude, how'd you come up with that? And really, I actually came up. This is one of those classic, like, napkin stories, like, where I wrote it down. Having lunch with a friend. Shout out to my guy, Rich Beatty. He'll. He'll confirm this as true. But I always saw that Jesus had a rubric. And of course, I'm a preacher, so I use alliteration all the time. And Jesus's rubric was that he gave the 72 and more parables. They got stories and they got sermon illustrations and all that. But then he had the 12 that he gave the kingdom passwords to. He told them what the kingdom of God was like. And then he broke it down a little bit further, and he had three that got his presence. They saw him transfigure. They were with him. Peter, James, and John seemed to be closer, but one got the pictorial right, and that was John. So he had his own sort of orbit on how he stratified relationships. So when somebody asked, like, dude, how do you. How do you have so many friendships in your. Your life? And I'm like, dude, I. Because I know where everybody lands. And I just started riffing, actually. I was like, you know, it's like this surface level relationships. Like dudes, like people that are sunbathers, right? Like, you sit next to another sunbather, you're hanging out, it's really beautiful, but if you stay on the beach too long, you're gonna get sunburned. And I was like, you know, and then there's other friends. You know, they pick up where you. You know, you pick up where you left off, and they. You know, they show up maybe every five months, and you go out to dinner and it's great, but then they're gone for another three. It's like people that just surf in. And that's how it. How the whole rubric came together. [00:11:19] Speaker B: Okay, you want to explain the other three? You got. You got the first two. Go hit the rest of them. [00:11:23] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So surfers are people that, you know, you say, well, they, you know, pick up where you left off, they come to you, you know, the funerals, when you lose a loved one, they show up for your kid's wedding and they are people that show up for anniversaries but then they recede with the flow of life and the rhythm of life. They know when to come in. The next level is a snorkeler. Snorkelers are people that you could go a little bit under the surface with, right? You're not going to get really deep but they might know that you're having a challenge with a co worker. They might know that, you know, you need some advice on how to help your K with their sats and that you're worried that they're going to flunk or something. You get a little bit underneath the surface but you're not going to get too deep. The next level is though a snorkeler. Snorkelers are great because those are the scuba divers. Scuba divers rather, I'm sorry, scuba divers are the people that you can actually do life with with a lot of depth and it requires a different type of apparatus in training to get into that level. And the funny thing is if you both pull out of the relationship too fast, you'll get the bends. So it is very, very committed. These are the people that traumas, they know something that happened to you in your past that you're still trying to work through. They know your insecurities, your hang ups, your habits, all of that. But it's not the deepest level. The deepest level is a submariner. These are the people that you have mutual destruction with because you are close. They not only know all of your stuff, they know your search history on the Internet, you know, so they, these are the people that go to the depths of your soul with you are, you're tethered to them. This is for life. But it is a level that can enjoy all the different ones because a submarine could go to each depth and it could actually float at the top too. It doesn't always have to go deep. This is why those people are the most fascinating people to have. And they're fewer every level, it becomes more intimate. You've never seen 90 scuba divers together, right? It doesn't happen. And you've never seen a whole bunch of. You see people on a submarine. That, that's a lot of people. But essentially there are people that have been trained to be in that atmospher. [00:13:32] Speaker B: Well, I want to make it really clear for people listening because I'VE read, I've read the book that you are not saying like one of these is better than another. No, like, I think actually that's the misconception that people find themselves in the. In the wrong spot. [00:13:45] Speaker A: Right, right. No, no, you're right. That's a good point. All of those levels of friendship should be enjoyed. A lot of people think, oh, I just don't want a shallow relationship. You might be missing out on a great relationship with a sunbather because that's what it is. It doesn't have to go deep to be meaningful and vice versa. None of these are in competition with. And perhaps it's good to have one person at each of those levels so that your relational ecosystem feels robust. [00:14:10] Speaker B: How do you know if you're supposed. If somebody is supposed to be a sunbather, a scuba. How do you know? [00:14:17] Speaker A: You have to risk. You have to take risk. [00:14:20] Speaker B: That sucks, Wayne. [00:14:22] Speaker A: I know, I know. Everybody's always asking me about that. They're like, how do you know? And I'm like, yeah, you got to get hurt. You have to be misunderstood. You, you have to experience betrayal. And what that ha. What happens is that you learn to be more discerning of who gets access. Because so many times we give submarine access to people that are just snorkelers and then worry why we got burnt. Well, you have to learn how to discern who's going to be in your life and at what levels. And you know what? It's not static. Sometimes people that are submariners end up becoming sunbathers in your life later because of the season of life and the way things change, the way you and I might change. Right. Like it's not on everybody else. Sometimes your needs change as a friend where people don't stay at the same level the whole time. [00:15:07] Speaker B: That's actually I see in the. When it comes to friendship conversations, I'm always thinking about the other person. Right. I'm always thinking about like what the other person needs to do or not do for me to assign them. But you actually just said that it also depends on us that based on the way we change. [00:15:23] Speaker A: Yes. [00:15:23] Speaker B: Those relationships explain that a little bit more. [00:15:27] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, there are different parts of us that are evolving with experiences with pain, with geography, with age. I am now a 51 year old guy. Right. And so the relationships that I look for are for men in midlife that know what it's like to be married to a woman having perimenopause. Right. Like I can't have that conversation with somebody that is 27 or 30 or who hasn't had life experience. And so sometimes I've changed. One of. I've. My former best friend. He and I are in different places, and it was because I was changing, and he wasn't at the same pace. His pace wasn't worse than mine, and mine wasn't better than his. We were just changing differently. And as a result, our friendship is not what it used to be. And I have to sit there and say, but my needs for me as a friend right now, what I need from a relationship is different than what I needed five years ago. [00:16:26] Speaker B: Yeah. And that takes a lot of self awareness. But also, like you said, it's the. It's. You have to experience the pain, Right? Yeah. [00:16:34] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's painful. [00:16:35] Speaker B: It is painful. And I think. Help us to understand because I. So when I first came on staff at Mosaic, I came on as a campus pastor. [00:16:45] Speaker A: Okay. [00:16:46] Speaker B: And so I was campus pastor for a couple years. Pandemic hit. Fast forward. Campus didn't make it. And for a variety of reasons, it was the pandemic. Right. Like, people went in different places for different reasons. But it was very, very hard for me, and I maybe was not as emotionally mature as I am now. [00:17:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:17:06] Speaker B: But I took it very hard and very personally. And I had to learn that sometimes seasons end, and it doesn't actually need to negate the relationship that was there. But I think people really struggle with that. Can you kind of speak to how can we still hold on to, you know, the good of what. The friendship that you had? [00:17:26] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:17:27] Speaker B: Even when the season's over. [00:17:29] Speaker A: Because people don't do that. There's a quote that's attributed to a person named Michelle Ventor, and she says, people enter your life for a reason. A season or a lifetime. And when you figure out which one, you'll know exactly what to do. I think that one of the greatest persons that we can learn from outside of Jesus in the Bible's New Testament is from Paul. Paul didn't extend. He allowed the right things to happen in a relationship, naturally. So think about this. He says, Demas has forsaken me. Having loved this present world, he puts a period at the end of it. A friend of mine told me we need to stop giving an entire paragraph to people that only deserve a sentence. Sometimes relationships, we drag them out, and they need a period. They don't need a comma. They don't need a semicolon. We need to end the. With a. A period. That. That was a good season. That was Something that was amazing, but now it's different. It could come back. And sometimes we don't allow ourselves to tell our new iteration of friendships. Sometimes you need a little bit of a break. Right. Paul and John Mark had beef and they had to separate. And then later he was like, yo, bring him back. You know, he's profitable. Right. Like, somet relationships need some room so that they can return in a different [00:18:42] Speaker B: iteration or not return. And that. That happens sometimes too. You know, I just, I think. I think we tend to, you know, and listen, we got to put the period sometimes and just know that it's over. But I also think. And I'm curious your thoughts on this. I think we cause ourselves undue pain when we say things like, oh, well, I guess they were a. Never a friend to begin with. Or I guess everything that, you know, yeah, none of it was real. That's. But that doesn't have to be true. Like, it can all still be very good even though it's over. [00:19:14] Speaker A: I think Christians in general have a hard time embracing lament. Like, we don't grieve things well, you know, and I think that sometimes you just need to sit with something and grieve it and say, man, I lost that. It was good. I wish I could have did things better. I wish that relationship would have lasted. But you know what? The season ended. And seasons are certain, but they're not final for many people. But sometimes they are final. And the best mature thing to do is to move forward in grace and with the right attitude and with the right mindset so that we're not constantly living in the past about things that didn't work out the way that we wanted them to. [00:19:53] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yes, we can look back with gratefulness and some. It's a both. And we know this. Everything is nuanced. Right. Like, you're gonna hold what was hard, but also let's hold what was good at the same time. Like, we should be able to do that, hopefully. [00:20:05] Speaker A: Exactly. Exactly. [00:20:06] Speaker B: I think, Wayne, another thing too, like, and maybe it is especially with Christians, like, I think that dating relationships sometimes end easier than friend breakups. [00:20:17] Speaker A: Yes, you're so right. Yeah. Yep. [00:20:20] Speaker B: Maybe because it's just baked in of like. Well, most of those are going to end. And we expect that their friendships are not supposed to. [00:20:26] Speaker A: Yeah. Like, they have to be like a next. Well, it's because there's a next step in romantic relationships. [00:20:32] Speaker B: Right. [00:20:32] Speaker A: We're either gonna get married or get engaged and so on. And with friendships, we just think that they're supposed to be in perpetuity. Yeah. And so it's harder to break up with friends. But one of the best things to do. I talk about this in the book, is sometimes friendships need to be reordered. And just like how you have to do. I'm getting ready to swap out my fall clothes, my summer clothes for my fall clothes. And one of the practices is, why is this still in my closet? I didn't wear this. I bought it. And I'm holding on to something that is not clutter, but it's also something that's not bringing any value. And so you do have to do some reordering, some reshuffling at times. And I walk through in the book a process of helping people do that. [00:21:19] Speaker B: I was going to say, what. Give us a practical. What does it look like when you're shuffling a friend without, you know, kicking them out of the closet? [00:21:27] Speaker A: Yeah. You know, I think that our calendars are our best preachers. Our calendars tell us more about whether we value a person. Thank you. We expect. And so one of the big things that I think is how much time have you spent with this person in the last year? If it's been low or you're not connecting with that person for a reason, Maybe you text every so often or you call. Maybe it's time for you to start thinking about what level of priority does this person place in my life. If that's the case, it's not like I have to kick them out or inject them. They just become less of a value add in the sense of we only make time for our values, and what we value, we make time for. And so you have to make value assessments of, is this a meaningful time when I'm with this person or is this a drag? Every time I'm with them, it's about them. It's about their. Their life and their stuff. And so many of us tolerate relationships that we become hypocrites in opposite group chats when we know that that relationship needs to be reordered if we would just get more honest. [00:22:28] Speaker B: Okay, so we have to be honest with ourselves, but are we. Are we also honest with that friend? Is this a like, hey, hey, boo, I gotta text you and let you know, like, you just became a sunbather. Like, what are we doing? [00:22:41] Speaker A: No, no. It doesn't have to be that extreme, but it does have to be. Where you're the scarcest resource in the world is an attention span. It's not money, it's an attention span. And I think that you need to guard the resource and I think you give little attention to the things that don't add value. And so it might be, hey, I would love to do that. But you're. What I do, this is what I personally do, is I create time for the outliers where I feel like it's not a drain for me and it's, it's relegated time for people that are in an ecosystem that are not my closest friends, that I'll give them some time in a particular way. It's adding value to me. It's in my rhythm. It's. It's something that I can do. And I'm, hey, come ride my. I'm going to ride my bike at 8am you want to ride with me? I was gonna ride my bike anyways. I don't mind having somebody with me. It's those kind of things where you start saying, I'm not gonna deliberately inconvenience myself to add value to a relationship where there is no reciprocity. [00:23:39] Speaker B: Okay. If it works, it works. [00:23:40] Speaker A: And if not, absolutely. I think we guilt ourselves into keeping relationships too long or showing up to something even though we know it's gonna be a drain, even though we know it's not gonna be a life giving experience and then get frustrated that the person isn't meeting your needs. It's our fault when we keep giving ourselves away and in a way that doesn't grow, mutually grow the person and ourselves. [00:24:05] Speaker B: Do you think that's a uniquely like, Christian thing though? Because we're like, well, we're supposed to love everybody and we're supposed to be kind to everybody and so we should have space for all these people. [00:24:16] Speaker A: No, I think that, I think that is obsessive control of being affirmed and liked and a little bit of manipulation. We were affirmation addicts. And a lot of times we want people to, we want, we want people to want us. And there's something addictive about that. I mean, I like that. Right. And yet we're becoming less useful because we're, we're too distributed. And so people don't get the best versions of us, they get a watered down version that is distributed to so many people. They don't know where they land in your life. [00:24:45] Speaker B: Yeah. So instead of thinking about like, what are we not giving to people? Maybe it's a perspective shift of how do we give our best to the people that, yes, we genuinely, you know, add value and to each other. [00:24:57] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely. I think it's because it could feel so Sinister. Right. Where it's like, oh, I'm just not going to hang with that person because, you know, I'm just going to push this person. It's really not that it's about being. It's a stewardship issue. It really is. I only have so much bandwidth, mentally, emotionally, relationally, to steward to people. And knowing you have to know your own capacity. I have capacity to have 400 friends, you know, and I could keep up with a lot of them and tag in and so on and so forth. I am a party person. But other people are introverts, and introverts are not bad people because they don't have that relational capacity. I think we can learn a lot from introverts in the sense of they distribute themselves way more differently than an extrovert would. [00:25:43] Speaker B: Yeah. And sometimes wiser because they know how to conserve that energy. Yeah. [00:25:47] Speaker A: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. [00:25:50] Speaker B: So, Wayne, as a. Also extrovert and as pastors who are in relationship with a lot of people. Right. [00:25:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:56] Speaker B: I think sometimes we see, like an uneven. Somebody thinks they're in a deeper level than the other person does. How would you encourage someone or what would you encourage them to do if they're in a friendship where the other person feels closer to them than they actually are? [00:26:12] Speaker A: Yeah, that's such a great question. I've had that question come up a couple of times. And it's a delicate thing. Right. Because I also think that you. Here's the thing, it's all about honesty. I think that we can become people pleasers and we can become. And I think it's a little bit of a caveat that you need to give to people so that they understand your boundary. Because people understand when you're not going there with them on particular things, they're giving you something. And, you know, I have several people that call me their best friend, and they're not my best friends. And I've had to be clear and just say, dude, I have one. It's actually. Here it is. It's Brene Brown. Right. Like, clarity is kind. [00:26:54] Speaker B: Yes. [00:26:54] Speaker A: And in the absence of clarity, people fill in the blanks. So I tell people, like, I have a best friend. I can't have nine, I can't have 10. And to be respectful of the relationship that I share with my homie Justin, man, I just wanted to let you know, dude, I'm here for you. I'm there for you. But the truth of the matter is, you know, I got my. You're my boy. But it's a little different And I think we need to be honest. I mean, just because otherwise you're hurting a person, you're leading them in a direction. And I don't think you have to do that until you're confronted with it, until somebody asks you about what it is. And most people are not going to ask whether or not you feel the same way about them. And so it just makes us feel insecure when, you know, somebody else is deeper attached to you than you are to them. I don't think we have to give that information away all the time unless we're asked. [00:27:43] Speaker B: Right. And I would say if we're to your earlier point, if we're asked and we're honest, and then people can't handle that, well, then I think they just remove themselves even further. Right. [00:27:56] Speaker A: Like, I want you. I think relationships have to have clarity, and it's okay for us to not make everyone happy. Right. Like, it's not make friends with anyone and make them all happy. It's make friends with anyone and do the best that you can to bring clarity and depth to each other friend that you're around. I think that it's a beautiful way to be honest. [00:28:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:28:20] Speaker B: Well, I want to go back to Scripture because you talked about Jesus, you know, with the 72 and the 12 and the 3. What have you learned about friendship from watching, like, what he's modeled in his life? [00:28:32] Speaker A: I've learned that people do have to be at different levels, that not everybody gets the same level of access. That would be horrible. Right. Like, Jesus didn't even model that. He. He allowed certain people to have proximity to him for a reason. And I think that's the biggest thing that drove my surface to submariners type of thing, because I don't think that everybody should have the same level access to me, and I shouldn't have the same level of access to them. It would cheapen the friendship. [00:28:59] Speaker B: So, yeah. There's an idea, though, in Christian circles, right. That, like, Jesus was interruptible, and so we should be interruptible, and he was always available, and so we should always be available. Are you saying you don't think that's true? [00:29:12] Speaker A: No, I think we have isolated passages where we could probably try to make a case from that. But we can also see that Jesus pulled himself away a whole lot and was alone. Right. And it was kind of like him and his father. And I. I do think that I don't know if I could make a case biblically that Jesus just took a lot of interruptions. I think that there was times where he obviously did for a reason. And I don't think I would use that to say, of course, people could just come into my life, and I got to stop and drop everything for that. That probably unhealthy. [00:29:42] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I mean, really, that's an example of. A perfect example of taking a Bible verse out of context. Right, right. [00:29:47] Speaker A: Like, it's like, oh, yeah, I'm gonna. Yeah, Jesus got interrupted by, you know, on the way to Gyrus's daughter's house. Like, yeah, I get that. That. That's a wonderful story in the Bible, but I don't think it was written and given to us to show us that we should be interruptible as well. I think it's a totally different purpose. [00:30:03] Speaker B: Right, right. The next time somebody comes to me with that, I'm gonna be like, yes. And then also, he went away by himself. [00:30:09] Speaker A: Absolutely. [00:30:09] Speaker B: In isolation. [00:30:10] Speaker A: Absolutely. You know, and there were strategic moments where he was gathering his closest friends, which, you know, there's that joke of a meme where it's like, you know, Jesus was, you know, in his 30s and had 12 friends. Like, go figure, right? But he. He wasn't hanging with everybody closely in that way. But we do see instances where he was with the 72. We see instances where he's at the 12 to 3. And then, of course, course, you know, you talk about John. John's kind of like, oh, I'm his bff. You know what I'm saying? I'm the beloved disciple that Jesus love. Right. He had that BFF street cred. And I think that's what I've learned the most, is to keep an ecosystem that is healthy and that's recognizable. So the friends that are closest to me, I call them my six pack. And I wish I had a six pack. I'm working out, trying to get it. But you. You could get a proverbial six pack. Six friends that. They know who they are, they know each other, and they know the depth of the proximity we have, because unless we tell people where they play the role in our lives, then you have those problems where, you know, people don't know where they land. [00:31:15] Speaker B: Yeah. Is that sixpack? Like, everybody. They all know each other, too, or each other. Okay. Okay. [00:31:22] Speaker A: They're. They're not. They're not, you know, close with each other. Interpersonally. They know each other, but the six of them know exactly who they are. Okay. And know the squad. Everybody's like, yeah, it's my people. [00:31:37] Speaker B: We're talking a lot about discernment in friendships. Who gets access, how to stop forcing connection where it was never meant to fit, and what to do when those friendships change. If you want even more support on how to have these conversations, I have an entire chapter for you in my upcoming book, the Other side of Certainty. How to follow Jesus when easy answers no longer work. Because often when your faith changes, your relationships do too. And honestly, it can be one of the hardest parts of following Jesus more closely. If that hits for you, I'd love for you to pre order the book before it comes out in just a few weeks on October 6th. If you get it before then, you'll also get some bonuses, including additional audio content on what to do when the people you love don't go with you in the direction of your evolving faith. I would love to be able to gift this guide to you. Use the link in the show notes to get your copy and your freebies before they disappear. Wayne, you talked a little bit about how people have different access to us. [00:32:38] Speaker A: Okay. [00:32:39] Speaker B: And I remember once, I mean, this was years ago, but this has stuck with me. I remember my best friend at the time, we were going through a bit of a, I guess a friend separation. And one of the most hurtful things she said to me was that I was, I'm a different person with different friends. I'm a different person with different people. [00:32:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:32:58] Speaker B: And that has always stuck with me because I'm like one Is. Is that. Is it true? I guess. But also, is that bad? Like, shouldn't we to an extent be a little different with different people? Like, shouldn't I be saying and doing different things with level fives and level ones? [00:33:15] Speaker A: 100% like that kind of Paul says I become all these all men to save some this kind of thing where, you know, there's an adaptability. And so when I'm with my ratchet hood rat friends, I'm not gonna act like I'm with my suburban friends. Am I a hypocrite? Am I, you know, code switching? No, I'm just like, people bring out a totally different aspect and part of you that you're around. And that's the beauty of friendship, to be around diverse people that bring out a side of you. I think it was the inkling write the. The who was it Tolkien and C.S. lewis and the other guy that his name is slipping my mind right now that they used to hang out with each other and they would write, you know, obviously C.S. lewis, profound writer, Tolkien with Lord of the Rings, all that stuff. But when one of them died and the three of them Used to hang out, he lamented because he said no longer can this person bring out the side of me that only he could bring out. And so I think that it's not hypocrisy, it's that we have the beautiful human, you know, capacity to pull different things. We're diamonds. And somebody could just turn a different facet. My, one of my friends can make me laugh like crazy. My other friend I get a little bit more intellectual with. He's a little bit more deep. You know, we. I' ma need a submarine to have a conversation with him. He's so deep. Right. Like, like people bring out different parts of us and when we interface with them, it's not hypocrisy unless we're not being ourselves, our true self. [00:34:45] Speaker B: Sure. [00:34:46] Speaker A: Curry favor with people. [00:34:48] Speaker B: Right, right. Well, isn't that the beauty of friendship? That then we do get to have every part of us encouraged and strengthened and built up and poured into. [00:35:00] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. You know, there's again, it's why I try to keep, I think what, I think so many people are homogeneous with their friendships anyways. Like they hang with the same type of person, they, you know, same kind of beliefs, the same kind of flow, same kind of age group. I think it's so important for us to hang out with people that are at least 10 years younger than where we are currently and 10 years older than us. [00:35:23] Speaker B: How, how would you tell people to go about doing that? Because the people do live really homogenous lives right now. You know, [00:35:30] Speaker A: for those of us, there's not a lot of places. This is one of the beauties of the church. Right. Because there's not a lot of places anybody can meet people anymore. You don't meet people at country clubs per se. You don't meet people at the bar or the club per se. Right. People aren't me. But the church has a built in set of community that you can literally take advantage of every week. So if you're attending a local church, I think that one of the things that you should do is either try to sign up for a group that has the, the kind of demography that you're looking for or to just be intentional to start trying to move into somebody's direct. Like here's the, here's the thing. Friendships start with curiosity and you'll never be a good friend maker unless you have a key question that you ask everybody that's going to open them up. So you need to be curious. It might be striking a conversation with somebody 10 years older than you and just saying, you know, I was wondering, I saw you and I was wondering, I don't know, you're definitely, you know, we probably have a different age bracket, but I'm wondering what does it feel like to be a, you know, a runner at 60, you know, and they're like, well, you know, I've been running for 15 years and just let the conversation go someplace. But curiosity has to, has to do and try to. I try to put myself in. Just a second ago or yesterday, I reached out to this guy named Brad Lominick who works with a lot of gen Z and 21 year olds and all that stuff. And I said, hey, dude, when are you having an event? Because I feel like I'm not around younger people enough. I need to be around younger leaders. And he shot me back, you know, a text with all the dates. And I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna go pull up and go talk to some young dudes. I'm gonna come, you know, with a little vibe and be like, yo, yo, tell me a little something, something about, you know, this new word or tell me a little bit about solo maxing, you know, like, and just be curious. [00:37:17] Speaker B: Yeah, that's so good. It's so good. And really, it is, it is church. I think that is, I think you're right. It's probably one of the only, not just best, one of the only places right now where you can experience that level of. Yeah, I mean, even age diversity. [00:37:31] Speaker A: Absolutely. It doesn't. And so I had a friend of mine who was here at our church many years ago. We're still friends to this day. He was an atheist. He still is an atheist. He once told me, I said, why do you come to church? His wife was a Christian. And I said, why do you come to church all the time, dude? And he said, this is the only place that I could think of where you can meet friends for free in the most diverse atmosphere and that people somehow tolerate you. And I think we're on the becoming church pocket. I think to become the church, we need to think of ourselves as a friendship factory. Stop thinking about, you know, ourselves as just, oh, get in a small group, da da. Like, what if I don't go to a small group? What if I. What? What if? But you, you need a culture of making friends in your church. And this is one of the only places left on the planet where you can literally make a friend and see them consistently on a rhythm. Think about that, right? It's repeatable that on Sunday your, your chances Are you're going to see this person over again? So I think it's great. [00:38:31] Speaker B: It's built in, it's easy. And then go to lunch after if you can. [00:38:34] Speaker A: But absolutely, it's there. [00:38:36] Speaker B: Well, Wayne, talking about the church and you and I are both pastors. [00:38:39] Speaker A: Yep. [00:38:40] Speaker B: You know, the church talks a lot about strengthening marriages and families and, you know, parental relationships a lot more than friendships. Yes. And so what do you wish pastors did differently or what should we do differently to honor those relationships as well so that they don't feel like second rate? [00:38:59] Speaker A: Yeah. We've hurt a lot of single people. [00:39:02] Speaker B: Yes. [00:39:02] Speaker A: In the church because we have decreased a theology of friendship and elevated a theology of marriage. So the only way that you can have a great relationship that's meaningful has some sort of sexual connotation attached to it, because that's really what it is. Right. And that's why we downplay friendships. Pastors need to. So I think a lot of times that we as pastors, we think more about the auditorium when we. The. Really, the success of your church is always determined by the lobby. Yeah, it's, it's. Are there lobby lizards at your church? You know, people that just like, they're just sticking around. You gotta flicker the lights and so get them out. That is what tells you if a church is healthy or not. Because people need to connect with each other. We need to design our buildings in a way for those of us that have buildings in a way that creates hubs of connection. Because we need, especially as we get more into this kind of claw chat, GPT, AI driven culture, we need to exalt friendship and not totally lower, you know, relationships to getting married or dating even. And I think that's one of the reasons too, where we don't follow this kind of idea of intergenerational connection where we actually need each other. There's things that we cannot. So here's what I say all the time. We cannot experience the best of God without the best and worst of each other. It's impossible. We cannot experience the best of God without the best and the worst of each other. And so we have to exalt the theology of friendship so that nobod is excluded. We let nobody off the hook. So I'm g. Just give you a little bit of a hot take on this too, because I think that we've also allowed people to just be like, well, my wife's my best friend, my husband's my best friend. And I think that's actually pretty harmful. Can your spouse Be your best friend. Yeah. I mean, soulmate. I don't think it's the best situation. There's things that I. My wife will never understand about me as a dude. [00:40:53] Speaker B: Right. [00:40:53] Speaker A: There's things I'm never going to understand about her that she needs a feminine perspective, voice, empathy. That is totally different. Just in the same way that I need a person as well. And I think we've crouched this in marriages. I married my best friend. You know what that tells a lot of people? That the only way that you can have a great best friend is if you marry him. [00:41:13] Speaker B: Correct. Right, Right. Listen, I had to go to. And I love my husband dearly, but I had to go to therapy one day. One day. Lots of days. Let's be honest. [00:41:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:41:24] Speaker B: She had to tell me. She was like, he doesn't have to be your best friend. He. Because he can't be everything. He cann fulfill every relationship and everything that you need. And I was like, what do you mean? She was like. Because I, you know, grew up in the church. She was like, he can't. And if you're putting that on him, you're actually making it worse. She was like, you need friends. [00:41:43] Speaker A: Yeah, Absolutely. [00:41:45] Speaker B: Great. [00:41:46] Speaker A: Absolutely. And I think it's so important for us to start pressing into that and starting to. And here's the thing. It's not really about quantity off the bat. It really is about creating depth with people that are meaningful to you, that are in close proximity, that you can actually have human connection with at times. I think that's very important, too, that our friends need to be close to us. We can have friends that are out of state and so on, but there has to be a localization of our friendships as well to where we can have access in person with those people. [00:42:17] Speaker B: Well, and we. We. It's going to cost us something, right? Isn't it? It's going to take some sacrifice to. Of our time of putting down our phones or whatever to actually. We're gonna have to, like, leave our houses. [00:42:28] Speaker A: Yep, yep, yep. We have to inconvenience ourselves to have a great friendship. The truth of A lot of people aren't as isolated as they think. They're just independent. [00:42:37] Speaker B: Okay. Say more about that. [00:42:40] Speaker A: They'll cry about being isolated and say, I just. We don't have anybody, but I don't have anybody to hang out with. It might be that you haven't been a likable person, a person that's teachable, a person that can be confronted with anything that is off or odd about your life. And then you can say you're isolated when you weren't. You just didn't receive truth from a person that was trying to be a friend to you. In a way, you, you've made friendship saccharine and it has to be sweet and beautiful. Beautiful and all that stuff. But sometimes a friendship needs to be challenging. And some people isolate because they're not teachable, and that's why they can't have great friends. [00:43:14] Speaker B: That was a whole word right there. Yes, yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, when we talk about, you know, you talk about your book how to be friends with anyone. And again, Christians talk a lot about, right. Like forgiving 70 times 7 and turning the other cheek and loving everyone. But is there any kind of person that, that we shouldn't be friends with? [00:43:35] Speaker A: Yeah, I think friends that, you know, I think we have to release friends that are harmful to our, our health. I don't think this is the modern culture of they're toxic. Right. I think we have moved into this kind of toxic thing and, you know, we just cancel people because we, we think so. I think there are people, though, that if they don't lead us toward righteousness, that's a friend that needs to, to, to change. For those of us that have made Jesus leader and Lord in our lives, if they don. Lead us toward righteousness, then it's a friend that I would think about. If they lead you into temptation, sin, sarcasm, gossip, all of these different things, those are friendships that probably need to move on and be released if they bring out the parts of us that aren't the, the best in the sense of man. Every time I'm with this person, I notice that I, I want to cuss. I with this person. I want to, you know, over drink. I, I'm with this person, I want to. Then I think that those are friendship becoming harmful. They have a pattern that they need to be reoriented. [00:44:39] Speaker B: Okay. [00:44:40] Speaker A: And you can do that deliberately. Like, hey, every, hey, guys. You know, every time I'm with you, I feel like, you know, you want to go do this. I think for our friendship to really flourish and survive, I think that we're going to have to start doing more of this. I would like to meet you here because this is the direction that I feel like I want to go. Would so great. Changing of a friendship in the direction of a friendship is always about invitation and not indictment. Indictment. You can't indict people like, you know what? I'm with you and da, da, da, da, da, da, da. It's like, no no, no. People don't respond to indictment, but they do respond to invitation and vision for a better future. [00:45:16] Speaker B: That's exactly the word that popped into my mind when you were saying. That was, again, the honesty piece that you keep talking about. We have to be honest with people and then get inviting them into something else. [00:45:27] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. [00:45:28] Speaker B: Well, Wayne, last question for you. You touched on this a little tiny bit, but because the podcast is called Becoming Church. Church. Yes, Listening. Become the church to the people around them, and maybe not just the people already in their circle, but to other people. [00:45:44] Speaker A: I love how John Tyson describes this phrase. And if we're becoming the church, I think we need to be biblically conservative, but relationally liberal. What I mean by that is you can hold on to your values, but be more like Christ to involve all different types of. Of people around you. Homogeny can be helpful, but it could also be a terrible, terrible detracting factor. Look at who Jesus gathered. He gathered people that were so different from him, and he crossed different cultural lines and boundaries. Think about Paul. Paul in Romans 16 is like, yo, shout out to this person. Shout out to that. For, yo, shout out to that. Remember, they were with me in prison. He had peeps. But they are all diverse. Right? Like, we have to become a church of people where networking and connected with others is not for them to be into our thing, our small group, our serve teams, our this or that, because people can sniff that. I think that people need to feel a genuine ethos of friendship, and so they need to feel like love makes the way in easy, the way out hard, and the way back the easy. What do I mean about that? Becoming the church is people. It should be easy for people to get into a friendship with us if they're going to leave the church or leave a relationship. It ought to be hard. It ought to be like, oh, my gosh, I'm going to die. But if they can come back on the right terms, we should make it easier for people to be in our lives than the. The first time. I think the church has to create a true openness where we could be biblically conservative, but we're relationally liberal. [00:47:17] Speaker B: Man, I love that so much. Yeah, let's. Let's not have the church be the ones striking the match to burn the bridge when people step away. [00:47:24] Speaker A: Right, right, right. Like, let's be healthy enough to say, well, sometimes this congregation is not the place for you to grow spiritually anymore. So I don't got to block you on Instagram. I don't gotta unfollow you because of this or that or it might be this is the season where to protect my peace, you know, and to protect my emotions of being triggered where self care looks like this. So I. I think the church has a whole lot to do to elevate this theology of friendship where we are gathering people, we are calling people to be connected to each other. And I'm not just talking about life groups getting a life group getting a life. Well, whatever. Life group's weird for me right now. What if that's not my next step? My first next step? What if it's just, hey, I. I need to just gather with a person and learn a little bit more before I can sit in the living room with nachos and salsa with people I don't know know. [00:48:14] Speaker B: Right. [00:48:15] Speaker A: And I'm. I'm for life groups. I, you know, we have life groups here at our church. Small groups are great and they're awesome, but I don't look at it as the only artery for people to get connected. [00:48:25] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's great. And that's, again, back to one of the mistakes I think we've made as a church is going, well, if you just get in a group, then you'll be good. But maybe. Or what if the group's weird? What if it's just not for you, like you said? [00:48:37] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Where do I find my friends? You know, I don't think we have to exist exalt finding our people. In my tribe and all this stuff. There is a little bit of that exalting of this, like, pursuit. I think it's about creating a culture where people can connect. [00:48:50] Speaker B: And those lobby lizards, right? Lobby lizards crawling all over the place, [00:48:55] Speaker A: sticking all over the place. That's what we need, man. I love it. That's how I determine a church's culture. Is it healthy? Do people at the end of the services dip out to the parking lot? Or are you like, man, we got another service coming. This lobby is full. We gotta move people. That. That's. That's a good culture. [00:49:10] Speaker B: All right, well, Wayne, show us that book again. How to make friends or make friends with anyone. Make friends with anyone. [00:49:17] Speaker A: Oh, can I. Can I tell you about this really cool thing that's in the book? It's a online assessment. If you go to showme my friends dot com, you can take my friendship assessment tool online and find out what type of friend are you, what your natural propensity is. Are you a surfer? Are you going to be more inclined to have submarine relationships? Are you going to be more inclined to have a snorkel relationship. Take it. It's free. It only takes about six minutes. And it's a great way for dinner when you're having conversations with people and say, hey, I just got this book and I saw this assessment. Why don't everybody at the table take this? Let's find out what we are. Great conversation starter. [00:49:52] Speaker B: I love it. Hey, real, real fast. And then I will let you go after I take this quiz and I find out my friendship propensity. Do I. Do I like adopt that like my enneagram? And I'm like, okay, this is who I am or do I use that to know. Know how to grow in the other areas? [00:50:06] Speaker A: It. You use it to grow in your other areas? Yeah, it's not like this is it. And guess what? Remember that it's seasonal too. Sometimes your natural propensity is where you are right now in your. Your. Your current life and desires. [00:50:21] Speaker B: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for being here. This is great. [00:50:23] Speaker A: Oh, you are lovely. You're awesome. Thank you. [00:50:28] Speaker B: You're not as isolated as you think. I just know that if you will risk being known and you're wise about not going too deep too fast, there are people in your area who would love to be in your life. Whether it's going to church on Sunday, making plans for lunch after, or RSVPing yes to the invitation that's giving you a little bit of social anxiety. I do encourage you to do one thing this week that helps you to practice real relationship. Now, this doesn't count as your real life step, but if you aren't already friends with me on social media, I would really love for you to be. Please follow me on technically all the platforms, but mostly Instagram. Hristenmochleryoung. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the episodes and what it's like for you to live out your faith so I can bring on just the right guests to help. Until next time, thank you so much for listening and keep becoming the church to the people around you. [00:51:21] Speaker A: Sat.