Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:09] Speaker B: Have you ever sat at a table and wished the person who sat down next to you was someone else? This conversation will reveal why that might say more about you than the person in that chair.
I'm Kristen Mochler Young, and this is Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians, but about becoming the church. Each week we explore the intersection of faith, culture, and everyday life through the lens of Jesus.
Today, my friend Ian Simpkins is back on the show. And while we're talking about tables, this is much more than a conversation on hospitality. It's a look at the tables where Jesus sat, the ones he flipped, and what each of those communicate to us. And as you're thinking about creating connection, one way you can do that is by sharing this show with someone else. Maybe this episode is a great way to start the conversation about grabbing lunch or just finding a way to connect in a real way. You could even start a small group where you listen to Becoming Church weekly and then get together over dinner to talk about your thoughts and what God revealed to you. As you listened. A quick text or a social media share of just like, hey, I think you'd like this, or this made me think of you. Really goes a long way in helping people feel seen.
Pastor Ian Simpkins, welcome back to Becoming Church.
[00:01:29] Speaker A: Thank you for having me back. I'm honored to be invited back.
[00:01:32] Speaker B: So excited. I don't remember. I should have looked it up. It was years ago that you were here.
[00:01:36] Speaker A: Gosh, maybe. Maybe four.
[00:01:39] Speaker B: I probably.
[00:01:40] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:01:40] Speaker B: Because you were one of my first interviews. I think you said yes when there were like seven people listening.
[00:01:46] Speaker A: So I didn't realize I was that early in the invite list.
[00:01:50] Speaker B: I think you were. Maybe not. Anyways, it was early enough and I appreciate it, man.
[00:01:55] Speaker A: I'm honored.
[00:01:56] Speaker B: Well, you're back. Today we're going to talk about your book, Every Table and Altar Reclaiming Connection in a World of Division, Distraction, and Loneliness. So before we really dive in, tell me about a time that you really remember experiencing, like, the invitation of welcome.
[00:02:11] Speaker A: Gosh, you know what?
It dawned on me while writing the book that I actually, my first real exposure to it was my parents. You know, I'm the oldest of seven kids, grew up his little house outside Detroit. And my parents, I can't think of a time where they, if we had a buddy that, you know, got kicked out of their house or needed like a dinner or a place to stay, my Eric and Colette Simpkins were always like, yeah, yeah, they can stay here. Like, they just modeled that really early on for me. And I, I don't think I appreciated how formative that was for me to have a front row seat of parents like, like living the way of Jesus in some really tangible, practical ways. And, and now looking over my shoulder, I, I can see traces of it all over the place. But I, that's what stands out to me is like, oh, that's the first place that I really saw that lived out.
[00:03:02] Speaker B: Yeah. Really formed you and, and who you.
How you see Jesus, I guess, and how we're supposed to live. Live out in the world 100%. Well, Ian, before we, again, before we dive into the book, you are known for your black squares on Instagram, right? I appreciate the black T shirt. I should have worn black today. I didn't put it together.
[00:03:22] Speaker A: I promise. I'm a joyful person.
[00:03:24] Speaker B: I know you are.
I know you are. Anytime you have a story pop up, I'm like, oh, I want to go see. Especially if it's something from bridge church, because you guys, you, you get up to shenanigans over there and I'm like, I want to come be on your staff because you guys have too much fun.
[00:03:41] Speaker A: Listen, ministry is too hard to not also have fun while you're doing it. You know, literally, one of our values as a staff is laugh loud, hard and often. That is like one of our. That's, that's a. Just a part of our culture. Yeah.
[00:03:54] Speaker B: That's so great. It's great. Well, how did you know that this was the time to go, like, all right, I'm going to go away from the black squares and I'm going to write a whole book with a black cover.
[00:04:02] Speaker A: But still, I don't know. I'm still not convinced. And I've already written it. Like, it's.
Honestly. And we've chatted about this before.
You know, the online thing happened totally on accident. It's, it's why it's just me screenshotting my Apple notes because I don't know how to do anything more creative.
So, like, my, my heartbeat has always been. I'm. I just want to be helpful. There's so many brilliant people already writing brilliant things that I never, I never want to just, like, add to the noise.
And enough people sent some really meaningful messages over the years, like, hey, this, this concept or this idea compiled and packaged maybe for a different audience could actually be really helpful. And I just, I, I start to, I guess listen to trusted people and, and listen to where I felt like God was leading. And that's still my hope. Somebody might read it and go, yeah, this is nothing new. Which is totally fair. But I, my, my hope is that it's helpful.
[00:05:05] Speaker B: I have that fear sometimes too, where I'm like, am I just saying what everybody already knows?
But no, there are still people that need to know these things, you know, or they need the reminder or they haven't heard it framed that way or whatever. And so like, it all matters. It's all important.
[00:05:20] Speaker A: I'm with you. I do sometimes feel like a little naive to the whole like my, my publishing team was like, what's your, what's your dreams for the book? I was like, I hope that it blesses somebody. And they're no like lists and all. Like, oh, I don't, I don't know.
I just, I just want it to be a gift to somebody else. And, and yeah, I'm, I'm hopeful that it is.
[00:05:41] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, last time you were on, I remember chatting about, you know, your black squares and how you have to be so sustain, succinct. And you talked about how like, it actually helps you in sermons and other things to be able to learn that skill, which I still am working on of like, you know, bringing it down. So was it harder for you to then do a book where you had to come up with more words?
[00:06:01] Speaker A: Oh, infinitely so. I mean, I had a buddy who's written a bunch of books and I think he was trying to encourage me. But when I, when we first kind of signed the, you know, the final paperwork, he's like, hey, don't worry, it's only 60, 000 words. And I was like, is that supposed to make me feel better? What do you. That's like, it does it so anxiety producing. I also appreciate, I don't know that people who like or a part of the bridge would choose the word succinct for me.
I certainly have some of that, that preacher long windedness. But yeah, it's, it is. It was a real different muscle to, to work. Yeah, you have more bandwidth, you have more real estate to like. Oh, I can actually tell details of the story that I haven't been able to include. There's also a real, I don't know, isn't unique to me. But like with preaching, if, if there's a real stinker of a Sunday, you're like, I'll. We'll get her a shot next Sunday. Like, just come back with the book. You, you just pour your heart out in this thing and then you Just sort of, like, send it off and it's. That's a. That's a whole different experience.
[00:07:07] Speaker B: Right.
What is the vibe? What's the heart of the book? Is it very, like, inspirational, like your Instagram squares tend to be? Is there some of that live, laugh, love. I mean, laugh out loud. No personality.
[00:07:22] Speaker A: I mean, my. The hope is, like, if you're familiar at all with the writing that I'm trying to do online, my hope is that you'll read this book and say, yeah, this sounds like Ian. There's, like, stories, but he's taking a deep dive into the Greek and Hebrew. But, oh, there's some brain science stuff over here and a little anecdote over here. Yeah, it's. It's my attempt. My hope is that nobody would pick it up and go, this doesn't sound like Simkins at all. Like, this.
This is clearly him trying too hard. Like, it's. It's meant to be conversational, but also, you know, it's a challenge. I also feel a need to be, like, practical. You know, I think we've all probably read books where you're like, that could have been a blog post that didn't need to be a full.
You know, I want to give, like, some actual handles as well. So that's. That's at least my hope.
[00:08:11] Speaker B: Yeah, Well, I have no doubt. I mean, I've already read through part of it. I haven't read the whole thing yet, but I will say it is very. It is very you. And so.
[00:08:18] Speaker A: Well, thank you.
[00:08:19] Speaker B: I can't wait to read the rest of it.
[00:08:21] Speaker A: Thanks so much.
[00:08:22] Speaker B: But it is about an altar. You know, you talk about every table is an altar, and I think an altar is. Is where people, you know, bring things to God.
[00:08:30] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:08:30] Speaker B: So actually, if every table is an altar, what are we, like, what are we sacrificing?
[00:08:36] Speaker A: Man, I think that's. I think you're the first person to ask me that specific question, which I really appreciate, because an altar is a place of worship, but it is also a place of surrender. It's a place of sacrifice. And I think it's probably different for different people, but I think at the table, we surrender hurry. We surrender convenience. We surrender comfort. We even. I think there's an aspect of, like, surrendering, like, the safety we have to always be right from behind a screen. That when you're actually breaking bread with somebody, there's like, oh, you're. You're harder to vilify.
[00:09:16] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:09:16] Speaker A: Breaking bread with you. Because now I understand that you are More than just the sum of your political beliefs or your religious ideologies like that. That's a real place to surrender people. You know, Brene Brown said, people are hard to hate up close.
[00:09:28] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:09:29] Speaker A: And I think that's. I think that's spot on.
[00:09:31] Speaker B: And.
[00:09:31] Speaker A: And that is real sacrifice. There is a certain comfort in perpetuating, oh, that person or those people. I can continue that narrative of them as long as I keep them at arm's length.
[00:09:42] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:09:43] Speaker A: But to actually invite them close legitimately requires some sacrifice, some surrender. So that's part of why I think the altar language is so compelling to me. It's not just like, kumbaya niceness. It's like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna have to lay down some weapons if I actually want to do this the way that Jesus did it, you know?
[00:10:01] Speaker B: Yeah. And I guess just to help the listener who hasn't read the book yet, do you. When you say table, are you talking metaphorically or are you saying, like, nope, find some chairs and get people around a table?
[00:10:15] Speaker A: I. I'm actually saying both. A lot of people. Because I think unfortunately, or fortunately, when people hear a table, they think, oh, it's a hospitality book. Which it's not. It's not. But I'm pro. And I actually make the case that I think hospitality in a. In a biblical imagination is far more profound and far more gritty than kind of like modern entertainment culture. They're not. Hospitality and entertainment are not the same thing. So, yes, I mean, physical tables. But I also. It's been cool to see this even take root in our own church.
People have shared stories of their quote, unquote table. Like, I just had a conversation with a woman who shared a remarkable story. She works the graveyard shift at a gas station and had this remarkable encounter with the young man at like, 1am and she's in the lobby at our church, and she's like, it. I. I think that counter is my table. Is that. What. Is that what you're talking about? And in my head, I'm like, I don't think I imagined a. A gas station counter, but yeah. Yeah, that's exactly what I'm talking about. So it's been cool to see it kind of take on a life of its own in environments that I honestly had not thought of before.
But it most certainly includes.
[00:11:28] Speaker B: Yeah.
Yeah. Well, it's about connection. Right. And you can't.
[00:11:32] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:11:32] Speaker B: You connect with people around a table, at a counter, at coffee shop, like, whatever it is. But in conversation.
Yeah. We have to Be around people.
[00:11:41] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:11:41] Speaker B: And let me just get this one out of the way. Do you see a version where like, quote unquote, sitting at the table can become an excuse for tolerating harm or, like, justification for people to just double down in their little homogeneous bubbles 100%?
[00:11:58] Speaker A: That's. That's part of what I. There's a couple of chapters in the book in particular that I think will surprise people because it does feel like sometimes that Jesus had a table motif is always like a sweet, serene watercolor painting. And it's never Jesus issuing a bunch of woes to the religious leaders or, or flipping tables. So, like, hot hospitality in a kingdom sense cannot not mean the abandonment of wisdom, of truth, or even, even boundaries. Like, like Jesus, he. He welcomes people extravagantly, but he. He never confuses welcome with endorsement. Like, he seems perfectly fine having difficult, even uncomfortable conversations still in the context of community at, at the table. But he's. Yeah, he certainly doesn't shy away from, from telling the truth. So, like, for me, it's like, it's why hospitality, I think, can't just simply be reduced to, like, sentimental niceness, like love in a, In a, in a biblical sense, like, welcomes, but it also tells the truth. And I think we've probably all been on the receiving end of, like, oh, this person will only ever tell me what I want. But, but in some situations, love actually requires telling me the hard truth about myself. It's not loving to, like, well, I guess we'll keep letting Ian dismantle his life in a direction that is totally catastrophic, you know, so, like, I think Jesus models both sides of that coin really, really beautifully.
[00:13:30] Speaker B: Well, I think that would be kind of maybe the gentle pushback for people who say, no, I, like, I am sitting at the table and I am bringing people to the table, but it's in the very, like, siloed, you know, kind of way is to go, okay, well, good, you're bringing more people in. But is it the people that you just want to tell you that your food is great?
[00:13:51] Speaker A: Like, you know, totally. And I, and I. That's not to say that we don't need, like, good Christian community, but I, you know, like, there's. I, I live in the Bible Belt now, and that's. Honestly, that's a new context for me.
[00:14:04] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:14:04] Speaker A: And as a pastor, it would be easy for me to spend 100 of my free time just with other people who look and talk and act and think and vote just like I do that. It's it really is uncomfortable and difficult to swim upstream from that at all. But when I look at the ministry of Jesus, he's regularly bringing in people from all different walks of life, different ideologies, like, different held convictions.
And I think if our tables are going to look like Jesus's, it's going to be more diverse than we might be comfortable with.
[00:14:37] Speaker B: Yeah.
And. And then we should be okay with we got to get comfortable being uncomfortable.
[00:14:42] Speaker A: 100. 100 totally agree.
[00:14:45] Speaker B: And so we're both pastors. We obviously both love the church. Right.
And also, like, I think we could agree that the church has shifted and it's changing. And there are half of the people that are listening to this podcast right now. This is their church. They don't go anywhere on a Sunday morning because they're like, I don't know where to go near me.
Do you think that the table could be maybe like the new access point for Christianity? I'm not trying to replace the church.
[00:15:12] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:15:13] Speaker B: But could that be a new in.
[00:15:16] Speaker A: It's. I'm so glad you asked that because that, that is my sense, I think.
And this is not unique to Middle Tennessee or even this particular cultural moment, but I think if you, if you know anything about church history, there, there always have been these massive kind of cultural swings.
It seems like everyone's talking about AI right now. I think as. As the Internet becomes more and more artificial, like, people are going to hunger more and more for what's authentic. I think that's always been there, but I think it's about to ramp up to a degree that we've never seen. And I think ordinary people actually seeing their homes and tables as sacred spaces for encounter and presence and healing.
It's not to knock at all. I mean, I'm a pastor of a church. Like, I believe in the gathered body, Sunday worship there. I just am so grateful for, for what we get to do.
And yet. And one of the things that we say a lot at our church is the gospel is the goal. But it seems like for Jesus, the table was his method. And if the, if the table was good enough for Jesus, why would we think it wouldn't be for us? Like, the early church did not take shape on stages or around pulpits. It. It took shape around tables. And it. You have. We have even these historical documents from antiquity of people who were not Christians writing about these followers of Jesus almost frustrated being like, man, they take care of not only their poor, but our poor as well. Like, how.
How do you stop a movement like that?
And this is without a website, without a microphone.
Early church exploded in growth. And I just think. I don't know. When Jesus gives analogies about the kingdom, he uses some really surprising pictures, like yeast and bread dough. Uhhuh. And that's a slow, often very invisible process. And yet in the modern west, we want, like, microwave results, and we want 60% growth every quarter. And I'm not. I'm not knocking, like, having tenacity and, like, big vision, but I do wonder if in some ways, if we're honest, the table feels too slow for us or too ordinary or too, too mundane. And I think, I think it's time to reclaim some of that.
[00:17:32] Speaker B: That is so good. I love to use the word reclaim. That's actually in our mission statement to reclaim the message and movement of Jesus. And so I love that. I love it. Was there, Ian, you mentioned Jesus in his, you know, examples. Was there a particular teaching of his that led you really to, like, go, okay, I'm gonna, you know, embrace this idea of bringing people to the table?
[00:17:53] Speaker A: I mean, there's definitely a few standouts for me. When I, like. When we first moved to Nashville from Chicago, I had a mentor who offered some really wise advice. And he said, hey, when you get to town, you're going to be really eager to change a bunch of things. And, you know, some of that could be really good. His encouragement was spend a bunch of time, like, listening to people like, before you make big changes. So I. So I did at his advice, you know, and over the course of that first six months, just having meals and coffee with people, some. Some a part of our church, but some that weren't. And it actually became the subtitle of the book because I kept hearing three themes over and over again. Division, distraction, and loneliness. Just kept hearing that over and over again. So that led me to really, in my. My own personal study, begin to realize how much time Jesus spent at the table and which was. I felt kind of embarrassed, to be honest, because I, you know, I've been going to church since I was 6, and I. It was one of those, like, how. How have I never noticed this before? Like, how. How much of his ministry? Like, obviously there's Sermon on the Mount stuff, there's Wedding Feast of, like, those still exist. But I'm like, boy, this. This through line.
You kind of can't unsee it. So, like, Levi decides to follow Jesus and then throws a big party.
Like, I just think that what an interesting.
What a. What an interesting instinct. After encountering Jesus, I think of even like post resurrection, the whole road to Emmaus story, which is, I just think so.
It's like sassy Jesus where he's like walking alongside, he's like, oh, what are you guys, what are you talking about? And oh. Oh, interesting. Curious. And the, the text gives some, some version of like, oh, it was actually in the breaking of bread that they recognized who he was. I was like, oh man. This like table theme has been there all along. And I just, I honestly had never noticed it before, so I became really interested in how that might actually look for, for us as a church.
[00:19:54] Speaker B: Yeah.
What do you think the Pharisees got wrong about the table? You know, you talked about like, they looked at Jesus, right? And they were like, what are you doing? And this is all different. And what do you think they got wrong? And then I would parallel to. What do you think we get wrong about it today also?
[00:20:10] Speaker A: Well, and this, this is a little bit true today, but most certainly in the first century, the table was not just a place to like have a meal. It was a place to send a message. It was a place of stratification to, to like, clearly indicate who was in, who was out, who had power and who did not. I mean, it. It is. I. There's so much that I couldn't include in the book. Like, they would often sit at these tables called triclinium, which like a U shaped table. And often, like other people from the community were allowed to sort of wait in the wings and listen to the powerful, successful people, like, debate about modern issues in theology. Okay. So for Jesus to upend that was more than just, I can't believe you invited this guy. It's like proclaiming a message about the nature of the kingdom of God. And I think the Pharisees, I think it's part of why they were so worked up by it. It wasn't like, ah, Jesus, we already had a headcount and this is, we're gonna not have as much food. It was like, oh, no, no. You are subverting some of our very tightly held beliefs about power and influence and who's in, who's not. Which is why I think, like, it's so riled up those that were most committed to piety and holiness. And I think, I don't know that to me is so compelling often to your earlier question, what. I think we often get wrong in a much subtler way where we only invite the people that we or already look like us or believe like us. And I think that's, that's part of what's so compelling to me about Jesus's use of the table in a way that is. I don't know, it just feels more timely now than ever before.
[00:21:51] Speaker B: Oh, it, it really does. Well. And especially when you think about, you know, bringing together people who not only maybe never ate together before or were not at the table before, and I never even really thought about this much, but when Jesus brought people together, surely he was bringing together people that also didn't like each other a hundred percent. Either enemies or. It's not just that they were like, oh, we've never eaten together before, or we don't agree on things, we genuinely don't like each other at all.
[00:22:24] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:22:25] Speaker B: And we don't see that as much now. And I think it's because of the cost. What does it require of us to. To like, commune with people that we don't agree with? Like, not a tiny bit, but, like, at all.
[00:22:36] Speaker A: Yeah, it, it costs a lot. I. I think there's, there's a reason algorithms reward outrage. I understand, I even understand the hit of dopamine that comes from outrage. Like, sometimes it feels real good at like a neurochemical level to be furious about something. And there, and there are things to be furious about.
[00:22:56] Speaker B: Yes, agreed.
[00:22:56] Speaker A: What it, what it cost us?
Oh, gosh, where. Where do you even start? It cost us our white knuckled grip that we are certain about every point of doctrine and belief. It costs us our comfort with only surrounding ourselves with people who, like, we already know are like, quote unquote, in our circle, in our bubble. It costs us convenience. Like, at some level, we have to admit that we are convenience addicts. And when you look at the ministry of Jesus, so, you know, more than 50% of the miracles of Jesus were interruptions. They. He was going. He was doing something else and was interrupted. And I just think, I don't even know that we're all that interruptible. Even if you just, just look at the 12, the 12 that he chose to assemble could not have been more different.
[00:23:47] Speaker B: Right.
[00:23:47] Speaker A: And not just in a, like, oh, a side of the track. So, like, no, no. Decidedly enemies. I imagine there's some vitriol there. And he goes, yeah, you and you, we're gonna do this thing together. I'm like, that, to me, is so beautiful. But also difficult in practice. Right?
[00:24:07] Speaker B: Well, then he pairs them up two by two and he's like. We're like, wait, wait, these aren't the two. I wouldn't have put these two together. Why did you put these? And now you're gonna send them off on their own, like 100.
[00:24:16] Speaker A: Yeah. Could we draw straws again? Can we try that one more time? What are we doing? Yes.
[00:24:20] Speaker B: Can we pick our own partners, please?
[00:24:24] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:24:27] Speaker B: Okay. If you've listened for a little while, you know I can't move on from a phrase about our white, knuckled grip on certainty without commenting on it. My new book, the Other side of Certainty, how to Follow Jesus When Easy Answers no Longer Work, is for those of us learning that certainty was never supposed to be the foundation of our faith. It was always meant to be Jesus. If you've ever questioned something that you are about talking about God, Christianity, or even the church, and you're worried that loosening your grip on knowing it all might lead you away from Jesus, this book is for you. The Other side of Certainty releases next week on October 6th. And if you pre order it before then, you'll also receive some bonus freebies, like extra audio content from me and some helpful questions to ask before you deconstruct. Use the link in the show notes to order your copy and get the freebies before they're gone. All right, now back to Ian. And what happens when loosening our grip actually puts us at a table with people who see the world very differently than we do?
Well, Ian, there's. There's a lot of people that need to expand their circles, and so practically, how would you suggest they bring new people in? Maybe especially for the people who sit in a more homogenous table.
[00:25:43] Speaker A: Yeah, and this. I'm speaking to myself, too, by the way. I would say start smaller than you think. I.
I tend to live to a fault in the realm of the big and dramatic. I'm gonna do something big for the kingdom. Or, like, big for my. Whatever. Start smaller than you think. Like, one of the things that we'll say as a church, I'll say something like, hey, you're. You're gonna have 21 meals next week anyway.
What if you just did one of them on purpose? What if. What if you just. It doesn't have to be this whole upend. It's sort of like you notice how, like, every January, everyone's making these resolutions and, like, I'm gonna work out 47 times a week and eat only steamed broccoli. And you're like, why don't. Why don't you go for a walk? Like, just start, right? You just make these dramatic declarations, and then we inevitably bail on them before it's February.
I think, like, one of the things that's become Kind of shorthand for us is like, who's your one of 21 this week? What's the. What's the one meal where it's someone that you know is hurting, someone in need of grace, someone who maybe you disagree with, someone who you might even have called previously an enemy? Like, yeah, that. That accountability has been really beautiful. There's other, like, aspects of this, though, that I think are also worth noting because, like, Sherry Turkle at MIT did this really interesting study a couple years ago where she said her claim was even the presence of a cell phone face down on a table, like, dramatically decreases the capacity for both of those people to share, like, any level of meaningful vulnerability.
So, like, even some of those decisions, we've all probably been to coffee with somebody who's like, they're physically there, but they're also kind of texting under the table.
[00:27:28] Speaker B: Right.
[00:27:29] Speaker A: That's not. That's not what we're supposed to be, you know, I mean, so it's not just like, well, I did the coffee or I did the meal. It's like, what does it mean to be a people of presence? Yeah. For these conversations at these meals. And I think it's not just, okay, I did it to do it, but what are the meaningful ways to actually, you know, engage with that person meaningfully? Yeah.
[00:27:49] Speaker B: And it's hard. It's so hard. I know. Like, even as a parent, there are plenty of coffees or lunches where I'm like, yes, I have my phone there, and I try to flip it over at least, but I'm like, my kids are home alone. And so I do need to just make sure, like, everything is okay.
I'm trying to be so present, and I have to pick my moment. But also I'm like, I just gotta check, you know, I gotta make sure. Because we are. Ian. We're pulled in a thousand different directions. And so I feel like it's this tension of wanting to be present while still.
I don't know, at least for me, like, stewarding. Well, everything else that's going on.
[00:28:23] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:28:24] Speaker B: Yep. And maybe I just have an organization problem and I don't know how to, like.
[00:28:29] Speaker A: No, I do. I do think tech. Tech has given us the illusion of just, like, endless capacity. Like, the. The illusion of being a million places at once, which just at an ontological level, we truly can't. Like, even the. Even the myth of multitasking, like, it's not actually multitasking. We. We have the data now to support. Like, you think you're getting more done but it actually, this switching back and forth. Me, I. I recognize myself in everything you just said because I. Because I want. And it comes from a good place. I want to. I want to. I want to be a present father and a present husband, but I want to lead our church well and be available for every person that needs me. And. But I think it's. It's the classic Mary and Martha. You know, like, Martha is doing a good, even noble thing in providing hospitality.
[00:29:21] Speaker B: Right.
[00:29:21] Speaker A: And Jesus is like, man, I see all that you're doing.
Your sister's actually shown the. She's chosen the better thing. And like, I can't tell you how many times I feel like the word that Jesus has for me is like, your heart is good. You're missing the most important thing, though, by attempting to be all over the place all the time. And I.
I just don't. I don't want to.
Was it Genesis 28? Jacob says, Surely the Lord was in this place, but I did not know it. Like, that is such a haunting declaration.
[00:29:51] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:29:52] Speaker A: That I have realized when I look over the shoulder of my life, how many times I'm like, oh, man, surely.
Surely the Lord was doing something there and I was just too distracted to pay attention to it.
[00:30:01] Speaker B: Yeah.
Listen, not an excuse for either one of us, but it is also very hard to be in ministry and be like, well, but someone.
Someone has to actually do the thing.
[00:30:11] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:30:12] Speaker B: Like, you cannot say, I want to be present. And also, if I. That microphone doesn't get unmuted, no one's going to hear it. Like, I.
[00:30:23] Speaker A: There are ramifications here to this not being done. Yes, a hundred percent. I hear you.
[00:30:29] Speaker B: Well, Ian, a lot of this book, I think it's going to help the person that's listening. Right. Like interpersonal stuff, but also other people. And so I want you to just kind of. You talk about division, distraction and loneliness.
Can you just kind of hit on those three things? And like, how did you see. You know, you said they kept coming up with you as you were in conversation. Right. With other leaders. What did you see and what do. How do you see? Kind of a fix.
[00:30:55] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:30:56] Speaker B: For them.
[00:30:57] Speaker A: That's a great question.
In the area of division, I mean, it ran the gamut. There's the obvious of, like, political division. You know, those people who voted that way, they're just as an entire category of people, you know, demonized or vilified. I saw that in every direction, but also religiously, you know, like, oh, that church that believes this or this church over There that had that happen or this, like, it just is this. Like, I. I think tribalism is a parody of belonging. I understand that we are storytelling creatures trying to make sense of this world and trying to determine who. Who am I safe with? And I think there's part of that is actually a good instinct, but when it. When it. When it translates into tribalism, of an innate ingrained us versus them instinct toward anyone who looks, talks, thinks, votes, believes differently than I do.
Well, you and I both know that leads to all sorts of places that don't look anything like Jesus. I think much of that at the table. You know, my brother is a lawyer in Detroit, and he used to throw the party every election.
And the only way you could get into the party is if you brought someone with you who voted differently than you.
[00:32:15] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:32:15] Speaker A: And the stories that he tell, like. And he's really. He's. He's a realist. So he's like, nobody left that party having convinced anybody of anything. But it now is a lot harder to demonize them because you spent an evening, like, breaking bread with them. And I.
I was just so compelled by that. So, like, I really do believe the table is the place of encounter. That is surprising how much that kind of lowers our walls and our guards. Yeah, the other two, I mean, distracted distraction and loneliness. We, you know, we did a series on technology a couple years ago, and the. The math is something like. We spend, on average two and a half months every year just on our phones.
[00:32:58] Speaker B: Holy smokes.
[00:32:58] Speaker A: That's. When you put it that way, it's like this. Even if you're not a Jesus person, is it possible that we're missing out on some of the good stuff of life if we're buried in our phone two and a half months out of every year?
That's not an indictment. I'm saying that to myself as well. But, like, yeah, the table is a place where we reclaim some of what I believe is, like, the good life that we're called to. And then the limitless thing is obvious. You know, like the. The amount of people that I talk to who have seemingly a large community or maybe a big platform. They're like, I don't know that anyone actually knows me. And I just drive into my attached garage every day and close the door, and then I do it again the next day. And I don't even know when Jesus says to love my neighbor. I don't even know my neighbor. I don't even know where to start. So I just. I just. Those themes just kept Emerging again and again and again.
[00:33:47] Speaker B: Yeah, there's definitely. I feel like that's. I don't know. And maybe it's just me as I'm getting older, but I definitely am feeling more and more the difference between like you can know a lot of people or you can be known totally. And it is a huge difference in the way that we feel if we feel lonely, if we feel accepted, if we feel loved, cared for, whatever. And it's again, right. Like admiration. You can have a massive platform and that people DMing you and commenting and telling you all the time, even, even genuinely like how helpful your words are. Right. Or that kind of thing. But yeah, that's not the same as being known by someone like around a table.
[00:34:26] Speaker A: It really isn't. And I think that's especially for pastors.
Ah, this might be too harsh, but I think, I think stages are occupational hazards for pastors. They're, they're. And I'm saying that as someone who is so grateful that I get to preach and teach every week, but I have to be very intentional to counter form what a stage in a microphone and lights does to my soul.
[00:34:50] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:34:50] Speaker A: It's, it's why we hear countless stories of comedians and actors who have all of the public accolades but are like deeply depressed, feel deeply alone.
We know the, the jury is not out. We know that man. A life lived for recognition without also intimacy.
[00:35:10] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:35:10] Speaker A: Is. It's just not, it's not a recipe for a life of flourishing at all. And I think that's, that's as convict, that's as convicting to me as anybody, to be honest.
[00:35:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
Well, I want to go back to that. I love that. The party, your brother in law's party. But it made me think like I want to go back to division and sitting around the table because I love the Brene Brown quote. I love the idea of bring people that are different from you. Right. And just sit around the table and you're going to get to know them. But like, my God, it doesn't always work that way.
[00:35:42] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:35:43] Speaker B: What happens more often than not is people want to come to the table and it's like, well, I'm going to bring you to the table so that I can tell you why you're wrong and why I'm right and that I can convince you.
Like, how does it actually work?
[00:35:57] Speaker A: I would say first off, we need to trust that people know when they're just a project. You know, like the, oh, my pastor said I should find somebody hard to love. And you're the most annoying person I know. So do you want to have dinner? Like, I think give people some credit. They know that I also, and this might sound like a. Like a Jesus juke, I think the Holy Spirit tends to work way slower than we think.
So I really think it's way more crock pot than microwave. So, like, sometimes. And we've even had people say this, like, all right, I did one of the stupid dinners, and nope, no one got saved. And I'm like, yeah, that's okay.
You don't have to be, you know, quote unquote, closing the deal every time. So, like, there is a certain aspect of, like, patience. It's what Eugene Peterson calls a long obedience in the same direction. I just really appreciate that picture. It's also worth saying that I do think it's okay at times to say, the Lord bless you and keep you away from me. Like, I don't wish ill on you.
We. We don't need to be in relationship. I mean, there's even more intense examples of that, I think in cases of abuse or trauma. Like, I've had to repeat this a couple of times, like, hey, that forgiveness and reconciliation are not the same thing.
So to the person that's like, does that mean that I need to have dinner with my abuser? That is not. That is not what I'm saying. So, like, there are legitimate safeguards and parameters that I believe Jesus regularly models for us. Yeah. But I think half the battle is going in with, like, kingdom expectation, but also a realization that God's timeline often looks very different from mine. Like, I've been in ministry, like, formal vocational ministry, 20 plus years now.
[00:37:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:37:54] Speaker A: I have lost track of how many stories people have shared with me. Like, man, I've been praying for my nephew for 35 years, and the Lord finally broke through.
Yeah, that's a long 35 years. But I've also gotten a front row seat to, like, legitimate life change that the person praying for that person had kind of all but given up hope.
But God still moves, and I think he's still. You know, Madeleine Langle has this quote, I'm going to butcher it. But she says something like, we win people to Christ not by loudly arguing how right we are and how wrong they are, but by showing them a light so lovely that they want with all their hearts to know the source of it.
I just am so compelled by that picture of evangelism. You know, where Scripture says, always be prepared to give a hope for the answer that you have or for the hope that you Have. And I think that there's.
To be prepared to give an answer means we should be living the kinds of lives that someone who has nothing to do with church is like, all right, I don't know how I feel about Jesus, but you seem to have a hope that I don't find anywhere else. Like, you seem to have a joy that I. I don't notice anywhere else. And I think that is a.
I don't know.
That's a. That requires some real patience.
But it is also, I think, a really compelling picture of how we're to live in the world.
[00:39:24] Speaker B: Well, I think we forget, too. Like, when we read the Bible, right. We look at these stories of these people and we know the end of their story.
[00:39:31] Speaker A: Right.
[00:39:31] Speaker B: So we're like, oh, well, it was all going to work out.
[00:39:34] Speaker A: Well, they didn't know, Right.
[00:39:36] Speaker B: In real time. They didn't know what 40 years was like. And I think we forget, you know, when we look to those examples in Scripture, like, they also had to live what we have to live. And it felt slow for that. I know. It happened in three paragraphs for us.
[00:39:51] Speaker A: Right, right.
[00:39:52] Speaker B: But, like, that was their life. Like, they also had practice and live this out. And so I wonder if that's part of it too, Ian, you know, we can read these stories so quickly.
[00:40:02] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:40:02] Speaker B: And then we forget. No, they actually took a really long time.
[00:40:05] Speaker A: It's one of the most interesting kind of word studies I did a few years ago was how many examples in scripture include people waiting.
It's super revealing. Like, in a lot of. It's like these heroes of our faith. But, yeah, they waited 12 years or 30 years or 40. Like, there's. It is. It's another one of those themes that's hard to ignore once you see it.
[00:40:29] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:40:30] Speaker A: But exactly to your point, it's. It's easy to miss if it's just two paragraphs. But you're like, oh, that was four decades. Lord, do I have the patience to wait four decades to see the needle move in this relationship or this particular, you know, pain point or contention? Right. That's hum. That's humbling for me because I like. I like things. I like things on my timeline, for sure.
[00:40:54] Speaker B: Yeah, me too. Me too.
Well, you talked about, you know, there are certain people that they don't need to write, they don't need to share a meal with their abuser, for example.
So would you say, as a pastor, does everyone get a seat at the table?
Or are there times that Jesus is like, nah, I'm gonna flip This.
I don't need you to. I don't need you to sit here. Actually, I'm about to flip this one, so don't be bothered to sit down.
[00:41:21] Speaker A: I mean, Jesus, obviously, I mean, infamously flips tables too. So, like, if. If ever someone wanted to make the case for an always warm and cuddly Jesus, you're gonna have to contend with the Jesus that also cracks a whip. I will say this because there's certain people, I feel like we tend to land in one of two extremes. Either we. We never speak to, like, table flipping Jesus, or we always use that reference as a justification to always be the angriest person in the room. And I'm like, all right. I mean, just do the math. Jesus. Jesus sat at way more tables than he flipped.
That alone is worth our consideration.
But he does seem to have a breaking point. Like, hospitality never seems to make him passive toward injustice. So, like, he welcomes people extravagantly, but he also, he. He seems.
He seems dead set on confronting what enslaves people too. Like, what keeps us from becoming people of love? So it's not just, you know, Scott, staple, arms wide open all the time. There. There have been times. And, you know, the New Testament has some very interesting language about, hey, when you reach this point or if this person is not willing to meet in the middle or recognize their own kind of culpability, like, yeah, XYZ should happen next. And I, I will admit there's. There's a lot of.
There's a lot of words of Jesus. There's red letter stuff that I've read. Even this year. They're like, I don't remember him being that harsh.
[00:42:59] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:43:00] Speaker A: That's more intense than I recalled in my Sunday school upbringing. And. All right, we gotta. We gotta recognize some of that and reconcile. Okay. Jesus does not seem to see hospitality as a. As an excuse for injustice, you know?
[00:43:16] Speaker B: Well, it's back to like you said earlier, right? He's. He's not inviting us to the table just to say, like, you're doing a good job.
[00:43:21] Speaker A: Right?
[00:43:22] Speaker B: No, Jesus is going to speak the truth to us in love.
[00:43:25] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:43:26] Speaker B: So, yes, you can. You can sit at Jesus's table, but buckle up.
[00:43:32] Speaker A: That should have been the subtitle. You can sit at his table, but buckle up. Yes.
[00:43:37] Speaker B: That could be your new tagline.
[00:43:40] Speaker A: I love it.
[00:43:41] Speaker B: I love it, Ian, because of the podcast is called Becoming Church. Last question for you.
[00:43:47] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:43:48] Speaker B: How can the people listening become the church, the people around them,
[00:43:54] Speaker A: I think.
Okay, so if you start with the fundamental principle that God is love. Right.
That means that love for God is not just the verb he does, it's the noun he is.
I'm, like, so compelled by that. So if we are made in the image and likeness of the God who is love, I think arguably, then the call in our life is not just to do more loving type things. It's to become a people of love. It's to become good news people. Yeah, I think as long as we keep it in the realm of, like, boxes to check, like, okay, I should do 12 more loving things next year than I did last year. That's not a horrible place to start. But, you know, Dallas Willard says maybe one of the greatest gifts we ever give God. Give God is the person we become.
What we do matters. But I think who we're becoming matters more. And that's a very sobering question, because as you and I, as teachers, as preachers, like, there is a temptation sometimes to do impressive things outwardly, but to recognize, I actually don't know that I'm bearing more the fruit of the spirit this year than I did last year.
And that requires some interior work that a lot of us are just not comfortable doing. So the aim isn't like, ah, host more meals, extend your table. These are all good things. But ultimately, the aim beneath it is that we are becoming more like Jesus.
And in so doing, the more that we abide in the vine, the more we become like him, the more sent we are going to be. The more burdened I believe that we will be by what it is that God is doing in and around us, the more I believe our eyes will be opened to where he's already at work. We are never bringing Jesus anywhere. He's my buddy, Hugh has this phrase. He says, kingdom work is like archaeology. It is unearthing where God is already at work. Work in this person's life, in this community, and saying, lord, how can I partner with you in what you're already doing? That to me, is a much more beautiful vision of becoming the church than just I. I did more programs this year than last year.
[00:46:08] Speaker B: Right, right.
Well. And again, back to, you know, the goal of the table. You know, the person that was like, okay, well, I had it and nobody got saved. Well, yeah, right, okay.
But did that person experience Jesus? Did you become someone that. Are you becoming someone that's more loving? And so, yes. Did they feel included or forgiven or receive grace?
Like, I think we forget that sometimes we can just embody Jesus and then let the Holy Spirit do the work of like, okay, now we're gonna have salvation.
[00:46:38] Speaker A: That's right. That's right. And. And in so doing, it's as much for us as it is for the other person.
It isn't like, oh, I'm gonna come as the dispenser of religious goods and services for your benefit. Like, oh, no. Something is transformed in me when I lower my guard and when I intentionally make space at my table for people that I maybe otherwise wouldn't. Oh, the look. Oh, he's actually doing a work in me as well. And it's not just simply for the benefit of the person I invited that I think is really, really compelling.
[00:47:07] Speaker B: Compelling and. And beautiful. So, Ian, thank you. We will link up your book, guys. Go check it out. You'll love it. Every table and altar. Reclaiming connection in a world of division, distraction, and loneliness.
[00:47:19] Speaker A: Thank you, friend. It's a joy to be back.
[00:47:23] Speaker B: Becoming is more important than doing, because while the good things matter, who you really are matters even more. It's my prayer that these episodes will help you become someone who looks more like Jesus, not just by using Christian language, but by truly embodying his love, grace, and invitation for all people. If that's happening for you through these conversations, please share the show with someone else and invite them to listen with you.
Be sure to grab Ian's book. Every table and altar until next time. Thanks so much for listening and keep becoming the church to the people around you.
