Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: In much of Christianity, the markings of an anointed person are clearly laid out either by role, position, platform, or even race or gender. But is being anointed by the Holy Spirit actually defined that clearly? I'm Kristen Mockler Young, and this is Becoming Church, the podcast where we discuss how the message and movement of Jesus is not just about becoming Christians and. But about becoming the church. Each week, we explore the intersection of faith, culture, and everyday life through the lens of Jesus. Today, I'm here with Faith Urie Cho, pastor and speaker, to talk about the power of the Holy Spirit. Who has it, how do you get it, and what are you supposed to do with it? After our conversation, I'd love for you to leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Like Christmas Baby 777, who said, I enjoy learning about the ideas and the individuals. This podcast showcases thought provoking and reassuring that there are voices speaking truth against false teaching in church and culture. Thank you.
Well, thank you, Christmas baby 777. I appreciate your review so much.
Faith Yuricho, welcome to the Becoming Church podcast.
[00:01:22] Speaker B: Thanks for having me. I'm pumped. Good.
[00:01:25] Speaker A: We're gonna have fun. We're gonna have something. Yeah.
[00:01:27] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely.
[00:01:29] Speaker A: So here's what's funny, which the listeners probably don't know.
You and I are both pastors.
You and I both pastor churches called Mosaic, which is very interesting.
So tell me about your church.
[00:01:44] Speaker B: Well, it was. It's a. It's a young church. It was planted in 2022.
It was supposed to be 2020, but here we are.
You know, we. Our first, I guess, like, team Sunday was actually the first weekend of lockdown, and we. We. I had no idea what Zoom was. It was. It was just a whole thing.
But you know what? It's been walking on water ever since.
And praise be to God. You know, it's. It's one of those things when I look back and I don't know how we got through it, but. But God, you know, it's the power of the Holy Spirit.
[00:02:28] Speaker A: Yeah, it's amazing. Well, we. We launched our mosaic in 2006, so. Just a little ahead of you, but in 2022, I do remember feeling like, okay, we're starting over. Like, everything is.
[00:02:40] Speaker B: Yeah, right. It does feel that way, I think. I mean, since 2020, there's just been so many iterations of church and church growth. Right. And so I feel like a lot of us were just riding on this whole it's unprecedented times wave. Right. Just. There was a lot of grace to what was Working and what wasn't.
[00:03:02] Speaker A: Yes. I love it. Well, so did you. Are you one of the founding pastors? Are you the founding.
[00:03:07] Speaker B: Yes, with my husband. Amazing. My husband and I, we planted the church.
[00:03:11] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay, so tell me really quickly, and then we'll move on to talking about your book. What is special or unique about Mosaic that you were like, we need a church like this?
[00:03:22] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. I mean, it's a.
I know people sometimes feel like the word diverse is, like, overly coined phrase these days, but it's in a county where our county is diverse, but it's fragmented, so churches are usually attended homogenously.
And oftentimes when a church grows in that way, it's easy to grow by culture and not just because of the gospel. And not to say that that's a bad way to grow, as in, like, oh, if you all share the same culture, you're not authentically growing. No, that's definitely possible.
But I think for us, I guess a burden and a blessing for us has been it's just completely diverse, like multi generational, multi ethnic, multicultural even. I, every time on a Sunday, have no idea how we were able to gather this hodgepodge group of people. And I just know it has to be only God. And there's a lot of challenges to that because a lot of people like to go to church where everyone is like them and everyone likes them.
And so it's like a fleshly inclination. Right.
And so although it's convenient, it's something that we don't have, as in no one's like each other. And so I think any sort of growth, I attribute it to.
To the Holy Spirit, to Jesus.
[00:05:03] Speaker A: Yeah. We are also a very, very diverse church. I know. I'm like, our Mosaic people that are listening are going to be like, wait, do we have a mosaic New Jersey? No, not related.
[00:05:12] Speaker B: Very same makeup.
[00:05:14] Speaker A: Like, very same name.
[00:05:15] Speaker B: We'll.
[00:05:15] Speaker A: We'll have to chat offline about what we can, like, partner or something. Do something together.
[00:05:19] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's. It's gold. Like, when it works, it's just. It's heaven on earth.
[00:05:26] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:05:27] Speaker B: You know, when. When God puts it together, it's. It's heaven on earth. And like I said, all blessings to the homogenous churches.
They're still church and they're still powerful, but there's just something very unique about a genuinely diverse church.
[00:05:44] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, I know that it is the harder route forward, so big props to you and your husband.
[00:05:51] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:05:52] Speaker A: We've done it for 20 years, so.
[00:05:54] Speaker B: Yeah, you got It. You got it. Thanks. That means a lot.
[00:05:58] Speaker A: Here to talk about your book. I've got the art copy right here. Unlikely and anointed.
And so I want to know, before we really dig into, like, what. You've got the good stuff here in the pages, how do you think Christianity became kind of this, like, spectator sport where we think that, like, some people are called, you know, to quote, unquote, do it, and other people are just, like, there to exist, maybe just to see them, like to watch.
[00:06:25] Speaker B: Right. I think.
I mean, unintentionally, it's kind of the way Sundays can be formatted. And like I said, it's unintentional. I think there's a lot of beauty in the way we gather and there's a stage and we listen to someone on a microphone. I mean, essentially, there's nothing wrong with that. However, I think sometimes we take that and it's the same as going to a movie theater. It's the same as going to a concert where you go to sit and to sing along time to time.
And we think whoever is there, whoever is visible, whoever has all the attention, is the called one, when actually all of us are called and the people on stage are just meant to equip, activate, and send the rest of us off. Right. And I think when we have that mentality that the most called one is the most talented one, or the most visible one, or the most charismatic one, we forget Jesus always looked for disciples in the margins. He always looked to activate those that are the least of these, the most unlikely. And I think if we take that framework, it's really putting our worldly perspective and dressing it up in our Christian language without realizing, oh, no, we need to be renewed in that sense. We need to not make sure that we're putting kingdom perspective in the way we see God's mission.
[00:08:04] Speaker A: Yeah. It's a tension, though. Right. And so I'm curious, how do you and your husband manage this? Because, like. Because same, obviously, whoever, you have to have some kind of leadership. Like, there has to be somebody in charge. There has to be somebody leading worship. There has to be somebody teaching. So there are these positions, you know, within the church structure that just exist. Is there anything that you guys do kind of uniquely in your, like, leadership style to. To combat the, you know, celebrity culture, that kind of thing?
[00:08:34] Speaker B: Yeah.
And, you know, I know, like, we live in a time where I feel like people are waking up to that, to the existence of a celebrity culture in a church.
And at the same time, on the other end of it.
Like you said, we need leaders. We need people to kind of lead the way. And we do need a worship leader. We do need a pastor, and we hope that he's a good preacher. Right.
These are all things that are not bad by essence. Right. It's just what we do with it. It's what we create from it. And I think from my husband and I, I mean, we're still learning, we're still growing. So I don't think we have, like, a set formula by any means. However, we are very mindful about who we disciple. Are we discipling the best and the brightest, or are we making discipleship accessible to somebody that may not have the kind of income that allows for them to just be able to spend all their time at church? You know, for somebody that has three jobs, for a foster parent with six kids in the house, that may not be able to just sit through a Bible study? Are we making discipleship accessible to those in hospice, for those with special needs?
And so I think when we consider it that way, it changes the way we see discipleship models.
[00:10:05] Speaker A: That's really good. Well, and then it also, again, makes it harder. So not only are you a diverse church, which is already one layer of difficulty, but then you're like, no, we really want to equip all people that don't fit the standard normative, like lanes and discipleship programs, and that's even harder to do.
But I do think that that's maybe, I hope, like, that's where the church is headed.
[00:10:27] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. That's. We can. One can hope.
One can hope. And I honestly think part of it is just we don't realize that how we see people is shaping how we disciple people.
I mean, even the prophet Samuel, when he was to go and anoint David, when he saw his brothers, even the prophet said, surely this one is the one.
Without realizing the way God sees is different than the way humans see. And so even the most experienced of us can fall into this trap of being amazed by what we see in the physical and. And not attempting to lean into how the Father sees each person.
[00:11:14] Speaker A: That's so good. So do you think, as I'm thinking through your book, because this whole time I was like, oh, well, this is a book about, you know, realizing your own holy spirit, anointing and, like.
[00:11:23] Speaker B: And it is.
[00:11:25] Speaker A: But now that I'm talking to him, like, I also think that this is going to form the way we see other people. Like, was that one of your hopes, too, as you were writing?
[00:11:33] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And the way we activate people, the way we lead people, the way. And also the way we treat people in the church.
If your church, if the magnetic force of your community is constantly going to a center and not pushing towards the margin, then it's time to reshape the way we see people.
If you enter into the lobby and immediately there's a suction towards the center and people are not pushing to reach the person in the corner, the shyer person, the quieter person, the person coming in a wheelchair, the person that seems like they don't have much to say.
If our connections, our activation and our ministry does not push towards those people.
Yeah. Then there's a gap to be filled. And so I hope that this is going to be a gentle, friendly challenge to that.
[00:12:37] Speaker A: I love a gentle challenge. So, so much so I'm like, yes, bring it, faith.
Okay, so for the person that's listening, right? Because that requires everything that you just said of like, okay, even for people that are listening, maybe they're standing around, you know, in a church on a Sunday morning, or they might not even be in a season where they're in a church right now, but they're trying to figure this out.
What's a practical way, faith that you would encourage them to push to the margins and like, you know, because it is easier, right? We want to just talk to people that we know we haven't caught up with. Whatever. What's a practical way to train ourselves to move out and not send her.
[00:13:19] Speaker B: Check the flesh. Really check.
I mean, I and am an ambivert, you know, so. As in I, although I love being around people, it's. It's hard for me to be around people all the time. Right. And. And I'm a mix of both extrovert and intro. And so for me, it's so easy to want to just stick to my little corner and talk to the one person that I feel like I already am connected with.
And, and so. But that's our flesh. Our flesh loves that comfort, loves to be around people that are like us, that we have a lot of commonalities with, that we feel like we are already in favor with.
And so we gotta kind of check our flesh. Like, hey, am I just sticking to my comfort zone every week? Is it just me and my besties every single week? And like I said before, this is a very nuanced conversation. So the reason why I keep on saying like I said and it's both. And because this is nuance, it's not like black and white. It's not like, oh, this is bad and this is good. No, Like, I'm so glad that people have friends at church. I hope we have lifelong friends at church. However, if that's the only people that we're around on a Sunday, on a week, week to week basis, as we're in the church community, then I wonder how many people are not in your little friendship circle that could really use a brother or sister in Christ to be an encouragement to them.
[00:14:59] Speaker A: Right. Because oftentimes, especially in our churches, people stand there, they're on the proximity, but they still don't feel like they're included until someone brings them, like you said, into yes. Conversation.
[00:15:10] Speaker B: So.
[00:15:10] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:15:11] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's, I think it's a, like I said, a gentle challenge.
Like, church is not about us.
And I think, ma', am, you better say that again.
[00:15:22] Speaker A: Yes. Right.
[00:15:23] Speaker B: And it's, I mean, we could all say that easily, but I think when we put it into practice, I don't think people realize how much they make church about us, about being seen, about being loved, about being comfortable, about feeling safe. Are these bad? No, like I said, it's a nuanced conversation. These are not bad. However, those are byproducts of a healthy church.
And we are not to try to go to church expecting to receive services.
You know, which is why I sort of disagree with the blanket statement that church is a hospital.
You know, because when you go into a hospital, you're a patient going in and you're wheeled around and you are being taken care of up until the point you leave those doors. Right.
And although yeah, the church is for the hurting, it's God is here to heal. These are all true. However, if that's our only perspective, then we're coming in hoping that the experts are going to fix us.
[00:16:28] Speaker A: Right?
[00:16:28] Speaker B: Right. Instead of thinking we all are part of a body and we are all meant to contribute something to that body.
[00:16:35] Speaker A: Well, and then again, then we cycle back to what we talked about a minute ago. Right. When we come in with that mentality, then we look to the experts, the leaders, and we're like, okay, just these people.
[00:16:44] Speaker B: Right?
[00:16:44] Speaker A: People are the called ones, right?
[00:16:47] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:47] Speaker A: Well, tell me what you. Your book is titled Unlikely and Anointed. And so tell me what you mean or like me, what your working definition is of the word anointed. And I'm curious if it's changed for you, like, over time.
[00:17:00] Speaker B: Well, theologically it's always the same. Right.
The presence of power of the Holy Spirit.
And one thing I emphasize in the book is not to get too married into the semantics of everything just because different church traditions call different. Call certain experiences different things.
[00:17:21] Speaker A: Right.
[00:17:22] Speaker B: And I think when we get lost in wording like, oh, wait, I thought it was the filling or the baptism or, you know, I would say we're kind of missing the point. The point is, when Jesus went to heaven, he did not just leave us and abandon us here on earth. He died and rose again so that we are never alone. We are now the temple of the Holy Spirit. And by that, we have both his presence and power. You cannot separate God from power. So he is power. Right. So his presence is the power. And so walking in that power and having that power are two different things, which is why we need to make sure that we have an understanding of the anointing, that we may be aware of what we have to access.
[00:18:09] Speaker A: Yeah. Do you think there's a difference between anointing and gifting?
Like, I'm wondering if somebody could be, like, gifted but not operating in the spirit of anointing.
[00:18:19] Speaker B: Right.
Yes.
But I say that with a caveat.
[00:18:24] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:18:24] Speaker B: Because there are some theologians that say it's the same, that anointing is spiritual gifts.
And in a sense, it's like the same thing to say, oh, God's power is his presence.
Right. It's like, can you separate the concept of power with a concept of his presence? It's part of it. It's a part of his presence. Right. And I would say the anointing is sort of like the power source. And then the spiritual gifts are the tools that we're given without repentance. As in, even if you are not a repentant Christian and you decide to live your own way, you still have those tools in your toolbox. But how effective you are in using those tools is dependent on whether you're walking in the anointing or not. Right. And so, yes, they're different, but they're. They're extremely tied together, if that makes sense.
[00:19:23] Speaker A: Yeah, I think they are.
And also I can see how they're not. So, like, again. Right, right. I'm just. I'm thinking of, you know, we. We see it every now and then, a spiritual leader, a pastor. Right. Who has had seemingly a lot of anointing, definitely gifting. But then we come to find out, like, maybe they weren't actually being led by the Spirit in the way that their church.
[00:19:49] Speaker B: Right.
[00:19:49] Speaker A: Things. And so that's just why I'm wondering, like, I do think people can be gifted and successful and go pretty far, I guess. We just have to look at the fruit and see, like, that's where the difference would be.
[00:20:03] Speaker B: And the challenge is the fruit is only really measured by eternity. Like, we won't really know how fruitful someone is until we see Jesus face to face. And we have that reckoning with God and we put on display what we've done with our lives. And we. Like, for example, Mary, I'm sure when she was just changing Jesus's clothes and feeding him and doing the laundry, I'm sure she never imagined that one day people are going to be writing songs. Like, if she knew, I don't think
[00:20:46] Speaker A: last time I knew.
[00:20:47] Speaker B: Right. She knew. And so I don't think she realized the fruit of her everyday, mundane routines and activities.
Right. Like, and she wouldn't know unless she died. And I mean, she died. She died. But, like, and, but in heaven now, I'm sure she's looking at things now and being like, oh, wow, that really made a difference. You know what I mean?
And so we won't fully know. And I think when we judge. Okay, now again, Kristen, this is a nuanced conversation because Jesus said, judge it by its root. Right.
So this is not to say, oh, like, you never know. No, like, we are to judge things by its fruit. However, we also have to be open to some fruit that will take time, some fruit that will come in the next generation. Yeah, yeah.
[00:21:45] Speaker A: And we can do our part with that too, right?
[00:21:47] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely.
[00:21:48] Speaker A: Faith. For people that grew up maybe in, like, a more charismatic space, being spirit filled and talking about the spirit can, like, give them a little, you know, anxiety, because maybe it was the spirit was confused with, like, charisma or personality or honestly, sometimes even, like, emotional manipulation.
[00:22:08] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:22:08] Speaker A: If somebody's coming out of. I'll just say, like, the trauma of that. And again, let's just, let's go with the assumption that it was, like, you know, misused, mishandled. How can they learn to discern the difference now between maybe what they experienced was like, quote unquote, the spirit versus tapping into Holy Spirit actually leading them?
[00:22:26] Speaker B: Yeah.
Oh. I mean, coming from a very charismatic background, I could. I've definitely had my share of some of those experiences.
And I would say it wouldn't be. It would never be abusive. You know, the Holy Spirit is not an abuser, you know, and he's not gonna threaten us and pressure us into fruitfulness.
And I think when we start to assume that this pressure that I feel or this fear and intimidation that I feel from certain leaders or certain.
Certain people in the church or whatnot, to be better, to be greater, to meet a certain standard.
Yeah, Holy Spirit, he's not somebody that tries to intimidate you into greatness, basically. And so I would discern through that. But to heal from that, I would say it will come from a deepening friendship with the Holy Spirit, really. He will have to replace some of our memories.
And I've literally had moments with Jesus when I asked him.
All the memories that I have of church in the past year have been bad.
Can you replace those memories and can you give me the right memories with you that I may have the experiential revelation and knowledge of who you are and not have my past experiences affect the way I see you? You know, and he does answer that prayer. He still is answering that prayer.
And I know how hopeless some may feel because for many, church is everything for them. It's your best friends, it's your community, it's your family, it's your future, it's your job.
For some people, church is everything. And so when we are in a situation where people are taking advantage of the anointing and using it for fleshly agendas, it could feel very hopeless. As if, oh, well, this is it. This is what the church is. And I can't get out of it unless I leave God. And that is not the case.
[00:24:48] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that's not the case at all.
Okay, real quick. Since we're talking about unlearning what we thought we knew about God, I wrote a whole book about this. It's called the Other side of how to Follow Jesus When Easy Answers no Longer Work. And it's for anyone who has started pulling on the threads of a complicated faith and thinking, wait a minute, if this isn't true, what else do I need to reconsider? And how do I even know what is still true in the end? I can assure you that your questions aren't going to take you away from God. If anything, there's a good chance that they will lead you to understanding him even more. If this is where you're at in your faith, I'd love to gift you the first chapter of the Other side of Certainty. Use the link in the show notes to read it and see if this book feels like what you need right now.
All right, now back to faith, because we're about to talk about what happens when God refuses to stay in the boxes that we've built.
Yeah, and that's where I think a lot of my heart for people is to help them kind of unlearn and then relearn. You know, sometimes the memories are replaced, sometimes they're still there. But I do think God will help us to see. No, this is what you need to unlearn because maybe you learned it incomplete or, you know, a little misunderstood. And here's how we can relearn, you know, what Jesus actually said and what the church is meant to be, what the Holy Spirit actually wants to do in us and what it. What the experience is like. Like you said, it's not scary. It's not intimidating.
[00:26:18] Speaker B: Right?
[00:26:18] Speaker A: It's not Holy Spirit.
[00:26:20] Speaker B: Right? And at the same time, like, like I said, this is a nuanced conversation.
That's a theme right now. Right? It's as much as, yes, he's not going to intimidate us into righteousness and holiness at the same time. It's God, right? And we will grow in this reverence with the Lord. But, you know, I was talking to a non believer once, and I've been really believing for her salvation for I cannot remember how long. Like, it was like a big chunk of my life. And once she sat me down and she was just starting to ask questions, and she shared about a moment that she had with God, but she didn't know it was God. And she shared with me what the voice sounded like, because she said she heard something that actually ensured the safety of her child eventually.
But she heard something. And the way she said it was this. She's like, it was the most loving, yet firm, kind, yet you dare not disobey.
And yet. And she was like, trying to articulate it. And she goes, if that's what God sounds like, I could live off his voice.
And the way she. I'm like, yes, that's literally.
That is.
Yeah, yeah. That is what God sounds like. Like, there's this reverence that grows in you. And at the same time, you don't want to leave him. Like you. It's like you want to get closer, even though you realize, oh, my gosh, like, this is God, right? You know, a lot of people like Isaiah, Peter, when they got this deeper revelation of God, they were like, woe is me, or get away from me, Lord, I'm a sinner. Because they realize, oh, my goodness, this is God, right? But it was also, here am I.
Like, it was also. But I. But you are it.
Whom do we have in heaven but you? Like, this is like, where else should I go? Like this. You are it. This is life. I could live off your words. I could live off your voice. And so that's The. That's kind of the nuance, the mix of yes but no when it comes to what Holy Spirit feels like.
[00:28:52] Speaker A: Right, right. And it's different for everybody, too. I mean, that's the other thing. Like, God is so personal. God loves us so uniquely that God knows, like, sometimes he's going to get my attention through a Disney animated movie because that's how he gets my attention. And, like, that's not going to be for everybody. And that's okay, you know?
[00:29:11] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think sometimes we put God in a box and we think, unless it's a burning bush, that's not God.
And I mean, I remember Solomon, he wrote in Second Chronicles, or he said what was written of him in Second Chronicles is that he was like, we can't contain you.
Like, this temple can't contain you.
[00:29:33] Speaker A: You are.
[00:29:34] Speaker B: He's talking about this transcendence of God. And I think if we really believe in the transcendence of God and that truly no one is like him, then the way we see anointing needs to break out of this box of what we normally place it in.
[00:29:49] Speaker A: Right. And the only way to do that again. Right. Is to maybe unlearn what we've always thought anointing was or who God is or even what Holy Spirit is. We have to be able to, like, let the box fall apart so that we can go, oh, wait a minute, you can't. Yes, contained in here. But I think. Tell me if you agree. I think the. It's scary to do that. Right. We like a God that's contained. We like a Holy Spirit.
He's explainable, he's containable. He's manageable, like, all these things.
And so it requires a, like, comfort of discomfort or at least, oh, yeah, sense of going, okay, like, I'll be uncomfortable. I'm okay being uncomfortable.
Because that's the only way. I think it's the only way to fully understand and embrace who God is. Like, if you are comfortable with God, I don't think you fully understand God. Does that make sense?
[00:30:42] Speaker B: Right.
[00:30:43] Speaker A: If you're not uncomfortable with how big and impactful and mysterious and, like, then I think maybe you've only seen, like, a fraction.
[00:30:53] Speaker B: Oh, a thousand percent. And that should encourage people and not discourage them.
[00:30:58] Speaker A: Right?
[00:30:58] Speaker B: Because that just means there's so much more of God to experience that all of a sudden, if he is containable and he's just same old, same old, that means there's a whole nother adventure awaiting you. Right? And you know when people say things like light Me on fire, you know, or like. Or bring revival. Lord, I. You know, and I love that. And I think a lot of people pray that in earnest sometimes without really realizing what we're asking, because God will literally flip our lives upside down and inside out because he is not of this world.
The moment Acts 2 happened and the Pentecost in the upper room happened, people were immediately like, they're drunk. Like, something is wrong with them. And I know we read that sort of separated from the situation, like, oh, this is just a nice story. But think about what that must feel, right? Like, if your mother or your father or your sibling were like, what's wrong with you? This isn't God.
This makes no sense. Just keep your job and just go to services like everybody else.
It won't make sense to worldly sensibilities. And with that, there is a cost.
There is a cost to continue to walk in that narrow path, to continue to walk in step with the Holy Spirit.
I have friends that love to travel, to hike, you know, and also love to travel to, like, Disney. Right. And.
And being their best friends has a cost because we're always planning trips. They're always like, they. They want. They want these things, and I love it. But I wouldn't do that unless we were truly, like, besties. Right. Does that make sense? And so, yeah, Holy Spirit, he's. He's a mover and a shaker. Right. And there's a cost to walking with him, but he's always worth the cost.
Yeah.
[00:33:13] Speaker A: Sometimes you gotta hike, even if you don't want to. Yeah, that's true.
[00:33:18] Speaker B: And you're sore.
[00:33:20] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:33:21] Speaker B: Right. You're gonna keep going along the way.
[00:33:23] Speaker A: Wish you had to sit down. Yeah.
[00:33:24] Speaker B: Right. Yeah.
[00:33:27] Speaker A: Well, Faith, talk to me about who you wrote this book for. Unlikely and Anointed before we dig more into kind of like the. What you've got in here.
Who did you write it for? What was your heart of. Just like, I need this message to get into the world.
[00:33:43] Speaker B: It was for the church, the wider church.
It was also for leaders, and it was also for just the back row Christian, you know, the. And I'm not saying the back rows, like, for the lesser Christian or anything, but it's for those that just kind of dip their toe in and just have this inferiority complex with Jesus where they feel this burn to serve and to obey, and they have dreams, but they will not act upon it because they feel like, who am I? Right. So it's. It's really. I mean, one could say oh, it's for everybody, right? But it's for the greater church, for everybody in the church. The body, the Bride of Christ is for those that are leading those churches and is also for those that have already disqualified themselves before they even started to try. Or maybe they did try and then they failed. And so they feel like, well, I guess I'm just destined to just cheer everyone else on, right.
Instead of seeing my life as a vessel of the Holy Spirit's power and his dreams.
[00:34:54] Speaker A: So you're really, it's really kind of a wake up call for people that are like, they've given up or they've said it's too hard or I don't understand any of those things.
[00:35:05] Speaker B: Right. And I also think sometimes unintentionally, we build a church culture that is self sufficient.
And I think unintentionally, a lot of Christians spend a lot of their faith journey fighting for self sufficiency.
They're trying to ask God to remove their weaknesses, their hardship, ask God to make things obvious and clear.
We want these things. Why? Because to not have them makes us feel utterly vulnerable, utterly weak.
But what if God doesn't want to take that thorn away? What if he wants to insert himself into that space where you really cannot so that you realize he can? Right? And even for if a worship service can be successful without a move of the Holy Spirit, and I don't just mean like, oh, it was technically supported by the Holy Spirit. I mean like, if a worship service can go on and if you do not expect the things of the Holy Spirit, and if it's just the success of that service is measured by whether you did a good job or completed your plans? I would gently challenge, is there room for Holy Spirit to interrupt? Is there room for him to do something that only Holy Spirit can do? Like the upper room experience in Acts 2 is often elevated to, oh my gosh, that was a Pentecost. But if you think about it, if somebody was running what was going on in the upper room and expected it to run per the program and it was all on Planning center, and they're like, it's all down to every minute and second. And it should run this way. Like, excuse me, Peter, why aren't you not giving the announcement right now? Right?
And I think about it, it would be so stressful. It would be so discombobulating.
Right. And so are we open and available for Holy Spirit to insert himself into the equation and just flex, Flex heaven.
[00:37:18] Speaker A: Yeah. My gosh, I don't know why I've never thought about this that way. And I'm feeling like, beep, beep, like Holy Spirit's like, I'm talking to you.
But even when you said like, we pray for these things to be self sufficient, like, you're so right. And maybe it's my personality type, right. Because I am the one that's leading the service and running the things. You know, again, somebody has to be the leader.
But even in my own personal life, I'm like, oh, you are right. Because when I pray for God to take stuff away or for things to be easier or whatever.
[00:37:50] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:37:51] Speaker A: It's not so that I can then be like, okay, now that that's hardship's gone, now I'm going to rely on your power. It's because, no, now I think I can do it myself.
[00:38:00] Speaker B: Right? Yeah.
[00:38:01] Speaker A: So God, what I need you to do, basically what I'm praying is, God, what I need you to do is make me so that I can do it on my own.
[00:38:09] Speaker B: Oh, a thousand.
Yes. Oh. The funniest thing, so what people don't know, well, at least from the outside of my church here in New Jersey, is that we haven't had a full worship team ever.
[00:38:27] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:38:28] Speaker B: As in for some reason, from day one, that has been our biggest uphill battle where we could not find worship leaders, instrumentalists. And it's like the irony of all time. We live 20 minutes from New York City. We are around the most talented people in the world. Right? But for some reason, aside from like one or two events where we just get outside people to come in and to give us like a full experience, we have always had a very stripped down worship experience on Sundays. And I, who love all out worship session with drums and bass and electric, this has been a thorn on my side where I would pray, lord, you own the cattle on a thousand hills. You own the drummers on a thousand hills. Why can I not find one? Why can I not find one? Why can I not find like just a full, like just a full band? Right. And but you know what's so funny? Because the testimony that we get the most are from people that come in and they said, I've never experienced something so minimalistic like this, but I experienced the presence of God for the first time.
And I'm just like, it's not the way I want it, but it's the, it's like I can only give God the glory.
[00:40:03] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:40:03] Speaker B: Because if I can't give credit to a worship team, I can't. I mean, I, you know, I couldn't you know, be thankful for them. Yeah, yeah. But, like, I can't give credit to our excellence, our performance, our. I can't give credit to our branding. Like, I can't. I can't give credit to anything or any sort of, like, special strategy. It just was Jesus.
[00:40:28] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:40:29] Speaker B: Yeah, it just was Jesus. Now is that sounds great when it's on a podcast, but when you're walking it, you feel like a fool. You know what I mean? So that's what I mean. Like, there's a cost, right? There's a cost to carrying this power.
It's deeply uncomfortable and vulnerable.
[00:40:47] Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, my gosh. I appreciate your honesty and your phone that so much.
Thank you. Yes. I. I just really appreciate that.
Really appreciate that.
[00:40:57] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[00:40:58] Speaker A: When you. Even in the back half of the book, you talk about, like, you know, being like Christ and you write about the different miracles of Jesus, and so are you saying that, like, if we're empowered by the spirit, that we should literally be capable of doing, like, that kind of miraculous stuff?
[00:41:16] Speaker B: Yes, with a caveat.
There you go.
[00:41:20] Speaker A: I knew it was coming.
[00:41:21] Speaker B: Right, right. It's. Yes. Because it says in the Bible that we are to do what Jesus did. And even more, however, does that mean that all of a sudden we become the superhuman person that could just turn water into wine and walk on water whenever we want? No. God. These are all for God's glory. It's supposed to point to the gospel. The point is to not think, okay, healing is just for those, like, the few that are specially chosen by God to bring about healing. No, you. If you are a.
A dad or a mom in a hospital with your child, you too, have the Holy Spirit in you and you can pray for healing is to say, don't just wait for someone special to come around and. And give you, like, a. Like a prophetic word. You could hear from God, too.
[00:42:18] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:42:18] Speaker B: You could pray for peace, too. You could pray like, you can do it, too. Not because you can do it, though.
It's because the same Holy Spirit that is in those people is in. In you.
[00:42:32] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:42:33] Speaker B: So faith.
[00:42:34] Speaker A: Tell me what. Because sometimes it doesn't always work the way we want it to. Right. So, like, you even mentioned healing. What happens to our theology? Or how would you encourage someone who's like, no, I'm with you. I fully believe that we can do the miraculous, that I can pray for healing. But when it doesn't happen, like, how would you encourage them in that?
[00:42:54] Speaker B: Then be open to God's interpretation of that situation, because it's easy for us in that moment of disappointment to fill in the gap and form our theology of his presence by the pain of our disappointment.
So if we automatically rush to the assumption, oh, it's because he abandoned me, or because I didn't pray enough, or because he's punishing me because I didn't pray this morning, or, you know, like, if we rush to these assumptions, you're not going to gain anything from that. If anything, your soul is going to wither in the duress of what you're creating God to be in your own mind. And I would say be open to God's interpretation of what's going to happen. And you know what? Other people are going to try to rush to those interpretations for you. They're going to be like, oh, this is good, this is good because God's going to do this. But at the end of the day, it has to be between you and the Lord. I cannot tell a person exactly why it did not happen because there are many reasons why it didn't happen.
It may be that God has an alternative plan. It may be that God is challenging us to sit in that secret place and tarry for longer. Or maybe it's just God saying, no, that's not my will. There's just so many different reasons. And I can't, I can't place my assumption and fill in the gap in somebody else's disappointment. And I would gently encourage and challenge somebody in that situation to go into that secret place and wrestle with the Lord. He is not afraid of our frustration.
God chose to wrestle with Jacob. Like he chose that. You know what I mean? Like he was okay with that. He rather have your realist, raw self than your religious uppity self. Trying to pretend with forced optimism that everything's going to be okay and that it's going to happen and you're just going to try harder or believe harder.
[00:44:56] Speaker A: Yeah, well, and sometimes it's just because we live in a broken world. And again, back to that discomfort and learning to be comfortable in the discomfort, like, yeah, realizing that we won't always know, you know? Yeah, but that doesn't make it necessarily God's plan. But right, you know, the choices of other people and Finn and whatever, like there is enough. Yeah. So.
[00:45:18] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Faith.
[00:45:20] Speaker A: What do you think would need to change or what would change about the way that we like, quote unquote, do church, and I'm talking in like church buildings for right now. If people started living like they believed that the Holy Spirit was within them, how do you Think the church would change.
[00:45:38] Speaker B: We would do more for. In response to needs.
What I mean by that is, okay, if somebody comes in and say.
And says, my back has been hurting and I haven't been able to work all week, do we say, oh, I'm so sorry.
I'll pray for you when I get home? Or you could pray for them there.
[00:45:58] Speaker A: Yeah, right.
[00:46:01] Speaker B: I think it raises our expectations of what God can do in the. In the body.
I think it also changes the way we treat one another if we realize, oh, wait, this person, although I don't like the way she talks, she's a carrier of the Holy Spirit. That's a temple right there.
[00:46:20] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:46:21] Speaker B: It changes the way we treat one another.
It changes everything, really.
And so it's kind of like this.
When you have an awareness that somebody great and amazing and beautiful and awesome is walking into a room, the room changes.
Right.
It's one thing to have someone, but it's another thing to have an awareness.
Like, so, for example, I don't love this, but this is how it is in my neighborhood for a while, Dave and I, my husband and I, we were just River's mom and dad, or, you know, Elias's mom and dad. Right. And.
And our. Our neighbors were just like, ah, you know, talking about drinks and cussing and, you know, and just all kinds of stuff. But then when they found out we pastor the local church and they realized we're in the room, oh, my goodness. The way they act completely changes. All of a sudden, they're trying to mince their words, they're trying not to curse, they're trying not to, because they have an awareness of who's there.
[00:47:28] Speaker A: Right.
[00:47:29] Speaker B: And so I say a church that is growing in awareness of the presence and nearness of God, the way they talk will completely change the way they treat one another will completely change. The way they answer to needs and problems will completely change because they realize who's actually front and center in what they think, what they do, what they say. And so I think raising that awareness in the church and having the church practice the presence of God together radically changes the culture.
[00:48:03] Speaker A: Yeah. Having more people be included and involved. And I love the awareness. You know, again, it's not.
It's not because, like. Like you mentioned, it's not because now we have to show up in a certain way because we're like, oh, we're aware of God's presence. Like, when people find out I'm a pastor in a room, I'm like, please don't be different. Don't be weird. Don't make it weird. Just be up. I'm a person, be a person. You know what I'm saying?
[00:48:24] Speaker B: Right, right.
[00:48:25] Speaker A: Tension, right? Of like, we want the awareness of God, but not coming in and going, okay, well, now we're going to like, dress up and be proper and perfect and in order to. That's like, we can honor God without
[00:48:36] Speaker B: being fake, you know? Absolutely. Yeah.
[00:48:39] Speaker A: I think expecting too, like, we pray before our services of like, one of our values is expectation. Like, we believe the Holy Spirit is going to move. Like, we expect it.
[00:48:49] Speaker B: Right.
[00:48:49] Speaker A: So I think you have to leave room for that, you know, in your services.
Well, last question for you. Let's take it out out of the institution of church into the real world, because the podcast is called Becoming Church. How can the people listening right now become the church to the people around them?
[00:49:07] Speaker B: Live as Jesus lived? There's no better way, right? This.
There's something about Jesus where sinners were drawn to him, you know, and if sinners are repelled by you, and when I say repelled, I do not mean like, oh, they don't understand the Holy Spirit in you, so they're repelled. No, I mean, like, there's something about Jesus that just woke something up around them, you know? So do we expect to live like Jesus on a Wednesday, or do we expect to survive on that Wednesday, you know, at. This radically changed for me. I remember once I did not, it was during COVID and I was blonde, and it was just not the right move to be blonde in 2020 as an Asian American woman. And my roots were growing out like crazy. And I remember I was like, oh, I got it. I gotta get this. This is not glorifying God. It is not edifying to anyone. And so I remember as a church planter, you know, I'm on a budget. And so I was looking any budget within budget place right in my area.
But for some reason, in different ways, God was kind of like pointing my. My attention towards this one place in SoHo, New York City.
And I was like, I don't know, like, models go there, influences go there. And I have no business going there. I don't have the money to go there.
But I just kept feeling this unction from the spirit saying, like, no, no, no, I want you to go there. And I have someone you I would like you to meet.
So I go, finally go. And it turns out, like, I. The person that was doing my hair, she hated Christians.
And immediately I'm thinking, oh, my goodness. The moment she finds out, I'm a Christian pastor. She's gonna kick me out of her chair. Like, she is just like, I don't even know. I never even asked. But she's just spewing these, like, Christians are so fake and they're so power hungry, blah, blah. And I'm just, huh, huh.
You know, And I just spend those two hours talking to her and listening to her, laughing with her.
And you know what?
She found out I was a pastor.
And for some reason, she wasn't offended. And for the next couple of years, she would listen to my sermons, she would read my articles, she would want to promote my books.
And ended up like other people in the salon. Like one of them who was going through a divorce, started to come to my church, experience the Holy Spirit. And it's so funny because I thought this was just about my hair, you know, I thought this was just about my money. And it was not. It was some. And I. My imagination was so limited. I did not realize that God has a plan too. That God has a desire and a dream too. Right. He was, he wanted these, these people in this salon to come to know him, you know, and. But all I was thinking about was just, oh, it's just my hair and it's just a haircut. It's just a root dye or whatnot. Like, it's just that when it's not, it's so much more. God uses our mundane as holy ground, you know, and it just shifts our perspective of what God can do in every moment.
[00:52:40] Speaker A: Absolutely. I love what you said. Do we are sinners drawn to us or repelled by us? I think if we think we're living like Jesus, but we're not looking like Jesus, like, we're definitely doing it wrong. If people are not wanting to, you know, be drawn to Christ or Christians or the church because of how we're representing Jesus, where it's.
Something's got to shift.
[00:53:03] Speaker B: So, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
[00:53:06] Speaker A: Well, faith, thank you. I will link up unlikely and anointed and tell people to go follow you. Thank you so much for being here.
[00:53:13] Speaker B: Oh, thanks for having me. What a precious conversation.
[00:53:18] Speaker A: If people are repelled by Christianity instead of being drawn to Jesus by it, you're doing something wrong. And I gotta figure out a way to get that on a T shirt.
In the meantime, it is my prayer that these episodes will give you practical tips on how to reflect Jesus better in the world around you. If they have, I would love for you to let me know by leaving a review because it lets other people looking for help or discipleship know that this show can help them too.
Remember to pop over to Substack Where Faith Is will encourage the person who doesn't know if they're anointed or feels anointed, but doesn't see the expected signs. Until next time. Thanks so much for listening and keep becoming the church, the people around you.
